Hobbyist going back to metal-halide and T5 from LED...?

[Salty150]

Been talking to a few people who say they are going back to their metal-halide and T5 lighting fixutres from their LEDs...

Because they LEDs do not do as well?

Talked to two who even had the high priced EcoTech Radion Pro G3...

:confused:

[dymaxiun]

How did they support their decision? Most of what I've heard is anecdotal, and when people claim to have controlled comparisons they are peppered with inconsistencies.

Curious.

[Mishri]

There are threads on this topic in the lighting/equipment section. Many people are going back, Many people are staying. Seems to be a split, some argue growth/color is better/the same under LED, others say they got better growth/colors with MH. And yeah, many of those people are using expensive high-end LED systems.

After reading enough accounts on that I don't think you are going wrong with LED, but I'll stick to my old inexpensive MH.

[cambo123]

I made the switch. To be honest I am not 100% sure there is a significant difference. I do believe, all things being equal, that MH and T5 are better sources because of there spread and a more complete spectrum. The color, shimmer, and growth of a radium MH is second to non. That being said, when I furiously dumped my LED's I unknowingly had AEFW, monti eating nudibranchs, redbugs, and a host of other problems without realizing it. Not saying that this takes away from the effectiveness of MH. I do however feel that a large chunk of the people that switch are partially or fully scapegoating from other problems.

[dymaxiun]

I do however feel that a large chunk of the people that switch are partially or fully scapegoating from other problems.

I couldn't agree more with this statement!

http://i.imgur.com/Mjz8BIFl.jpg

[Wazzel]

There is a very long thread with lots of opinions already. You should give it a read.

[hobbzz]

Radions do not have a very good spectral output. They use cool white leds. People in the diy community stopped using cool white about 5 years ago because they lack spectrum and wash out colors. The store I work at stopped putting sps under radoins and kessils. They are also not top of the line, like most people think. One example of a top of the line system is that they use full spectrum whites, like neutral and warm white. Pacific Sun would be a good example of top of the line.

Just because something sells doesn't make it a good product. Perfect example, Jebaos (sp?) sell like hot cakes, despite the fact that they have the highest failure rate of any pump ever brought to market in the U.S.

Look at the people that use leds systems that have a good spectrum, more like that of t5 or mh, and you'll see they are the ones succeeding. That being said, leds have definitely not caught up in the actinic area. The output of actinic leds is far inferior to t5 or vho. Which is why I personally supplement with t5 actinic, which I'm actually switching over to vho super actinic in a few weeks. Other than actinic, leds are a perfectly good source of lighting, albeit a little harder to build a good setup.

[hobbzz]

I also agree with cambo123 that a lot of people use leds as a scapegoat. But I think more of them just don't have a good grasp of how much spectrum they're losing when they replace mh or t5 with a rb/cw led fixture, or even a radion, kessil, or AI.

[Spslvr]

I originally started with some custom leds from china that were massively powerfull and my acros colored and grew like nothing ive ever seen, then when 1 failed and i got no joy out of the supplier in regards to warrantee i swapped to radion gen 3 pro, i have had nothing but problems with growth slowing significantly colors especially yellows fading and even stn'ing since my tank has been running for years and my methods and parameters are unchanged i have to assume its the radions....

anyway last week i added 2x250w arcadia mh units with14000k bulbs,already i am seeing a difference in color "yellows are returning as well as sky blues, sps are already appering to be healthier with crazy pe....

[bfin3]

I've been happier with my t5/led combo than I was with halides.

[tlc]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23677196#post23677196

this guy seems to be doing it right with leds

[Spslvr]

im an advocate for leds i think they work well, but radions are junk!!!

[Salty150]

im an advocate for leds i think they work well, but radions are junk!!!

LOL, OK...

Which LEDs are not junk...?

[hobbzz]

As far as premade fixtures go pacific sun has the best spectrum (either led only or led/t5 hybrid lamps) but they are really $$$. Maxpect razors have the best spectrum and coverage out of the mid-range brands like ecotech, AI etc. What size is your tank?

[Salty150]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23677196#post23677196

this guy seems to be doing it right with leds

LOL, well, with a shallow tank and over $12,000 (19 lighting systems) in lights...

I sure hope so!

[Spslvr]

LOL, OK...

Which LEDs are not junk...?

As i said earlier the cheap chinese leds i had custom built were awsome, right up until the day they blew lol.... since then ive had the radions and ive been looking for something with a bit more punch [radions are weak as ****] unfortunatly here in aus we dont have a massive range to choose from, i looked at kessils wasnt happy with em, i looked at maxspect razor and laughed, radions i hate. this leaves the hybrids ati no warantee in aus, geissman aurora to expensive. anyhow i settled on mh and the rest is history:beer:

[Peter Eichler]

Depends on your priorities... If you value coral color above all else, MH and T5 are generally a little better than even the best LED's. I've seen very few truly great SPS tanks lit by solely LEDs, but I've seen some very good ones. If really good coral color is good enough for you and you want to save a little on bulb replacements and an energy bill, then go with LED's. Personally, reef keeping isn't a money saving venture for me. I don't look for good gas mileage in my fast cars either.

I've tried to make the jump twice and I did it on a tank that was in the same room as a T5 lit tank and a room over from my MH lit display. Viewed on their own I liked the LED's, viewed next to the other tanks I simply didn't like the look as much no matter what I did to dial in the look I liked.

[firemountain]

I personally went from 2 Kessils to supplementing with 2 T5's, and the growth on my SPS has been wonderful.

I think the LED/T5 hybrid approach is the way to go. You get the complete spread and spectral output of the T5's, and the efficiency, shimmer, and no heat with the Kessils.

I think that for FOWLR, softies and LPS, the Kessils are great. But once you get into SPS, you will reap the benefit of the T5's coverage.

Don't get me wrong...my Kessils did grow SPS, but just not like I wanted....hence the need to supplement.

[david pinder]

went from t5s to metal halides. sps never really started to pop until I bought a few cheap leds. they now cover all my tanks wouldn't change for nothing. Currently running some 30 led fixtures yes they can have trouble, I fix them or replace them. the lights are cheap the parts are cheap and just plug in. My water is cooler my building is cooler and my sps is growing out of the water.

[kevensquint]

I found LEDs work well, but not as black and white as MH or T5. Those you hang around 10" chose a known and proven bulb/tubes and watch the corals grow. Led involves lots of fiddling, bleaching, growing, burnt tips, success..it can be an annoying buffet of results.

[Camel413]

I used to use T-5 on my 120 gallon reef and it did fairly well. I moved and tore that tank down and moved all my livestock to a friends house. In the new house I have a 240 gallon tall and I am actually using my friends MH lights as he switched to LEDs. The growth and color he gets with those LED are great. I can tell my coral have grown a lot faster than they did under my T-5s.

My new tank is built in the wall with a fish room behind it. With the 3 MH lights running I am running into major temperature problems. I even have special venting in the fish room and cant keep the temps stable. For this reason I am going to convert to the same LEDs that my friend is using. Even if my growth goes down it will be worth the trade off to keep temps in check better.

[cleverbs]

I am one of those people and I couldnt be happier

I went from running AI Hydras to a Hamilton MH/t5ho setup and am very happy with it. The amount of light in the tank, the colors my sps have now that they never had, and the growth of SPS is IMO and I want to stress that IMO better. I did lots of research and talked with lots of people on this site and a few others and based my choice off a few things.

#1 - We all KNOW MH/T5HO combos work great for sps, is it the only light that works? No But its proven time after time to work.

#2 - Tank is 30" deep so I felt that all t5ho wouldnt be enough.

#3 - Lots of people who have really nice SPS tanks who switched to LED have switch back

#4 - I think LED's can work an many people have very nice tanks who use them however I just dont feel I get the same growth/color - and that could be because I was using LED's wrong I dont know, and to be honest I dont really care if that was the issue because I tried for 3 years to use leds and in my book I gave it a solid go.

#5 - I really like how much light fills the tank with my MH/t5's

#6 - I run an open top tank in the basement and have no need for a chiller and during the day my 800watts worth of heaters never turn on. With LED they ran 24/7 so I dont really save anything on energy costs with LED or lose anything with MH

[hart24601]

There are a lot of people who have been reefing a long time with MH lights and they like them but wanted to try LED - maybe to save money or maybe just to try it, but LED isn't MH. IMO it can be just as good or better, but it's still different and there are lots of people who enjoy how their tank looks with MH as that is what they have known for years so they switched back, sometimes looking for any excuse they could. Nothing wrong with switching back of course, people should do what they prefer in this hobby! But I do feel LED has gotten a bad rap from some of those cases. That and manufactures are not open enough with needing multiple fixtures or long fixtures for self-shading SPS colonies.

[d2mini]

"any light can grow coral"

This is one of the biggest arguments for LED.
Fine. Let's say for the sake of argument that this is true. Because it is, to an extent.
Take that out of the equation and here is what I prefer about using the MH/T5 combo vs an all LED setup.
This is in order of importance for me personally.

1) MUCH brighter tank. LED lit tanks are much dimmer in comparison. Huge wow factor.
2) No fiddling. Pic a MH bulb, pic some T5 supplements, and other than maybe trying a couple different T5 bulbs in the beginning, they are set and forget. No more questions about wether you have the correct spectrum, intensity, etc. No messing with ramp periods or any other fad feature.
3) Much better light spread with no shadowing problems. Very important for SPS.
4) Much lower startup cost. Even lower if you consider that what the led manufacturers recommend for coverage just isn't true. You need to buy 50-100% more units than they recommend for proper coverage. Or hang them much higher. Or both.
4) If your coral aren't doing well under MH/T5, you know you are doing something else wrong and it's not your lighting.

Two downsides to MH/T5:
1) Heat management. Can be an issue if you have a canopy. Usually not much of an issue at all with an open top tank.
2) Electricity. Fixtures alone only cost me an extra ~$100/year. The chiller on the other hand adds a bit more. I have a canopy.

All kinda depends on your tank, your preferences, your priorities.
As much as I love mh/t5, i run an LED over my 10g nano fusion. The tank is small so T5 is out and mh would be a bit more difficult, I get ok coverage, it's not an sps tank, and this tank isn't as important to me. It's just an office tank that I don't spend much time/effort on.

[DavidinGA]

With today's options I think the most user friendly plus good results setup is LED+T5's.

I still think MH can still outdo anything else on a hardcore SPS tank, but the trade-offs to run MH aren't worth it to me vs nearly as good results with LED+T5's.

[hart24601]

"any light can grow coral"

This is one of the biggest arguments for LED.
Fine. Let's say for the sake of argument that this is true. Because it is, to an extent.
Take that out of the equation and here is what I prefer about using the MH/T5 combo vs an all LED setup.
This is in order of importance for me personally.

1) MUCH brighter tank. LED lit tanks are much dimmer in comparison. Huge wow factor.
2) No fiddling. Pic a MH bulb, pic some T5 supplements, and other than maybe trying a couple different T5 bulbs in the beginning, they are set and forget. No more questions about wether you have the correct spectrum, intensity, etc. No messing with ramp periods or any other fad feature.
3) Much better light spread with no shadowing problems. Very important for SPS.
4) Much lower startup cost. Even lower if you consider that what the led manufacturers recommend for coverage just isn't true. You need to buy 50-100% more units than they recommend for proper coverage. Or hang them much higher. Or both.
4) If your coral aren't doing well under MH/T5, you know you are doing something else wrong and it's not your lighting.

Two downsides to MH/T5:
1) Heat management. Can be an issue if you have a canopy. Usually not much of an issue at all with an open top tank.
2) Electricity. Fixtures alone only cost me an extra ~$100/year. The chiller on the other hand adds a bit more. I have a canopy.

All kinda depends on your tank, your preferences, your priorities.
As much as I love mh/t5, i run an LED over my 10g nano fusion. The tank is small so T5 is out and mh would be a bit more difficult, I get ok coverage, it's not an sps tank, and this tank isn't as important to me. It's just an office tank that I don't spend much time/effort on.

I also think it's important for people to remember that many issues are subjective like your top 2. I really, really don't like how bright MH tanks are. I always hated seeing the glow from 3 blocks away when the sun goes down early in the winter. I also see the ability to change the spectrum as a bonus or to have it change throughout the day. I love having the tank run 10K at noon so I can see the colors differently but then go more blue in the evening as I generally prefer that and do most my viewing at night, but can still enjoy the whiter look too. For people obsessed with coral colors they can easily change the spectrum of light if they are trying to tweak colors they can't do with water chemistry and don't have to buy new bulbs to try it out.

It's great we now have so many lighting options that can be viable so people can pick what they like. Us reefers tend to get caught up in "the best" or "the only way to ...." but really there are lots of ways to be successful.

[cleverbs]

I love the LED+T5's however I dont love the price of the fixtures that are on the market right now. I am all about DIY except for lighting. I have no business doing a DIY with lights. I did my own LED RapidLED kit on my first tank and actually that grew corals really well and it was the only led set up I ever really liked that I had. However It was in a canopy and over time the wires rotted away and I had to replace some then some more would so I sold it off and got a chinese led setup of just the white and blues and that was ok too then the full spectrum one came out so I jumped on those and that was terrible didnt have any luck may of been user error I dont know. So then I got AI Hydras loved them at first on my LPS tank they did great however even at the top of the tank I couldnt keep SPS happy tank ended up crashing so I decided I was going to go full on SPS and my LED's wouldnt cut it so I had to make a choice, spend a TON of money on leds to get the proper lighting on my 220g or take the advice given by many people here and the #1 person D2Mini (who helped my find the fixture and understand what to get and why to get it) and went with a MH fixture. Switch my frag tank from LED to a 175w 14k MH and Boom growth is great.

I think D2mini said something that is important to me that I forgot about. I dont ever have to mess with the fixture. With my AI's I would come down and one of the LED's would of lost its sync with the controler or one of the channels was out so I had to reset them all or I would adjust the intensity to see what was best for the corals and even then it was like throwing a dart in the dark who really knows if you have it dialed in right because I didnt. I would much rather spend my time tinkering with my params to keep them stable then tinkering with my lights and crossing my fingers they all 8 of the colors where dialed in the right spot.

[cleverbs]

I also think it's important for people to remember that many issues are subjective like your top 2. I really, really don't like how bright MH tanks are. I always hated seeing the glow from 3 blocks away when the sun goes down early in the winter. I also see the ability to change the spectrum as a bonus or to have it change throughout the day. I love having the tank run 10K at noon so I can see the colors differently but then go more blue in the evening as I generally prefer that and do most my viewing at night, but can still enjoy the whiter look too. For people obsessed with coral colors they can easily change the spectrum of light if they are trying to tweak colors they can't do with water chemistry and don't have to buy new bulbs to try it out.

It's great we now have so many lighting options that can be viable so people can pick what they like. Us reefers tend to get caught up in "the best" or "the only way to ...." but really there are lots of ways to be successful.

Remember very very few LED's can change spectrums like that during the day. Majority of the LED's people use they cant even put in 14K they have to twist nobs or adjust the colors manually. Even with AI if you dont have the director you cant do this. They may of added this to the new wireless remotes but I dont know I know the older model didnt. I think LED's would be much better off if you could just say 10k, 11k, 12k So on...you get the point. But most cannot do this.

[d2mini]

I also think it's important for people to remember that many issues are subjective like your top 2.

Like I said in the post you quoted, those are my personal opinions/preferences and you need to decide what is best for you and your tank.

And per your other points, when I had LED everyone still saw the blue glow and all my neighbors wondered what the heck i had in there. Kids would peer in the windows!
So that's really no different.

And for color i have the mh and two banks of T5. So that's three different color modes throughout the day. Two stage of blues in the morning, crisp white throughout most of the day, and then two more stages of blue in the evening.
The slow ramping does nothing for the coral or fish.

[hobbzz]

All kinda depends on your tank, your preferences, your priorities.

In some people's cases it's also about your spouse. ;)

[hobbzz]

I love the LED+T5's however I dont love the price of the fixtures that are on the market right now. I am all about DIY except for lighting. I have no business doing a DIY with lights. I did my own LED RapidLED kit on my first tank and actually that grew corals really well and it was the only led set up I ever really liked that I had. However It was in a canopy and over time the wires rotted away and I had to replace some then some more would so I sold it off and got a chinese led setup of just the white and blues and that was ok too then the full spectrum one came out so I jumped on those and that was terrible didnt have any luck may of been user error I dont know. So then I got AI Hydras loved them at first on my LPS tank they did great however even at the top of the tank I couldnt keep SPS happy tank ended up crashing so I decided I was going to go full on SPS and my LED's wouldnt cut it so I had to make a choice, spend a TON of money on leds to get the proper lighting on my 220g or take the advice given by many people here and the #1 person D2Mini (who helped my find the fixture and understand what to get and why to get it) and went with a MH fixture. Switch my frag tank from LED to a 175w 14k MH and Boom growth is great.

I think D2mini said something that is important to me that I forgot about. I dont ever have to mess with the fixture. With my AI's I would come down and one of the LED's would of lost its sync with the controler or one of the channels was out so I had to reset them all or I would adjust the intensity to see what was best for the corals and even then it was like throwing a dart in the dark who really knows if you have it dialed in right because I didnt. I would much rather spend my time tinkering with my params to keep them stable then tinkering with my lights and crossing my fingers they all 8 of the colors where dialed in the right spot.

Your experience is a perfect example of leds setups that fail. You were/are under the assumption that just because you bought popular lights that are expensive, they should work. I can't comment on your chinese fixture or the diy setup without knowing anything about them, other than the fact that your wire problems are not normal and should not have happened. My diy setup has been running strong for 4 years, no replacements. But, I do know AI does not make a good product. It's much harder to build a good setup with led than with T5 or MH.

MH is the simplest. Like Dennis said, just pick a bulb. Want great growth and crap color, get a 6500k bulb. Great color and slower growth? Get a 20k. T5 is a little more complicated with all the different bulb combinations. LED is the most complicated. It doesn't help that most companies are more concerned with selling than quality. If my wife didn't mind dealing with the heat, or bulb replacement, I honestly don't know if I would have used led. That being said, I have had great results with my setup. I however did the research, and tried to replicate the spectrum, par, and coverage of a mh or t5 setup as best I could.

[cleverbs]

If my wife complained about "how bright" the tank was I would just shake my head at her and tell her not to look at it then...and yes I am married lol

She gets plenty things in life that I dont like a full walk in closet all to herself and countless other things I get my Fish tank and my car and we leave it at that. lol

[hobbzz]

I wasn't actually referring to brightness, but she does complain about that too. That's why I have a canopy which I hate lol.

[cleverbs]

Your experience is a perfect example of leds setups that fail. You were/are under the assumption that just because you bought popular lights that are expensive, they should work. I can't comment on your chinese fixture or the diy setup without knowing anything about them, other than the fact that your wire problems are not normal and should not have happened. My diy setup has been running strong for 4 years, no replacements. But, I do know AI does not make a good product. It's much harder to build a good setup with led than with T5 or MH.

MH is the simplest. Like Dennis said, just pick a bulb. Want great growth and crap color, get a 6500k bulb. Great color and slower growth? Get a 20k. T5 is a little more complicated with all the different bulb combinations. LED is the most complicated. It doesn't help that most companies are more concerned with selling than quality. If my wife didn't mind dealing with the heat, or bulb replacement, I honestly don't know if I would have used led. That being said, I have had great results with my setup. I however did the research, and tried to replicate the spectrum, par, and coverage of a mh or t5 setup as best I could.

Honestly I think my experience is a perfect example on why LEDs are not where they need to be yet. I didnt just expect to lights to work just because they where expensive I bought them because they are one of the higher quality lights and I like to buy things of quality over cheaper things. Now I dont think that they should of worked just because of the price tag. They DID work very well for my LPS set up. I had solid growth and my LPS looked great. However they didnt work for my for SPS now could that of been because of the spectrum or could of of been from a lack of par? Based on my Par readings I would say PAR was the problem. And this is because I was using 3 fixtures when I should of really been using 6 to light my tank. My lights then failed and they replaced them for me. The AI rep told me the best thing to do would be let them replace all they Hydras with Hydra 26's so I agreed He told me they are a much better light and will give me more par then the Hydra and that all I would need for an SPS tank is 3 of my 220g. I wasnt out anything at the time so I agreed and what a mistake. The tank was dark the light didnt fill a 220g at all. I talked to a lot of people and they said that if I want good results with LED I would want to upgrade to the Hydra 52s and use 6 of them. Well I could of done this but it would of cost a lot of money more money then I was willing to spend to hope this time it would be right. So I decided to look into other options and really wanted to go Hybrid t5 but I couldnt justify the price of the ATI 60" Fixture so I decided for now I would run MH/t5 and maybe next time its time for a new tank and new lights ill probably go down the t5ho/LED path because I wont ever buy a 30" tank agian lol


lol I hate a canopy too :) Only time I think its ok is if they are built into a wall

[rwb500]

I do however feel that a large chunk of the people that switch are partially or fully scapegoating from other problems.

to expand on this, i think the majority of all equipment changes done by frustrated reefers are not warranted. our hobby involves a lot of guesswork. when something goes wrong, most people buy some new equipment (whatever they think they need) and then they improve their husbandry in every area they can think of. 4 weeks later, they come say "I switched out XX for YY and now everything looks so much better!"

[spkennyva]

"I switched out XX for YY and now everything looks so much better!"

I'm definitely guilty of this. I started using T5 and was struggling to get anything to grow and eventually switched to LEDs and things got much better. This was a new tank and I suspect that it was simply too new to effectively grow SPS, no to mention other rookie mistakes. With the LEDs I'm doing much better, but as the quoted posts suggests, I changed a LOT of other things too, which likely contributed much more to my current state than the LEDs. I've toyed with the idea of putting the T5 back, but at this point things are going well, so I'm very hesitant to tweak anything. I might consider a T5 supplement to the LED.

BTW, our best 2 LFSs use LEDs exclusively and get great results. Both were MH/T5 users before the switch. Neither would consider going back. One uses Radions and the other uses AI.

[dymaxiun]

to expand on this, i think the majority of all equipment changes done by frustrated reefers are not warranted. our hobby involves a lot of guesswork. when something goes wrong, most people buy some new equipment (whatever they think they need) and then they improve their husbandry in every area they can think of. 4 weeks later, they come say "I switched out XX for YY and now everything looks so much better!"

Element of absolute truth here... Self-Justification on questionable investment or products drives opinion to a large extent, just like all other hobby's or any 'results' based activities.

I enjoy the discussion here, and it's definitely constructive. From my perspective the large LED manufacturers have targeted the hobby (no surprise there), the technology is present, and if they - the manufacturers - were reading these threads/forums; i guarantee they are listening - It's critical to their business, and it will eventually change.

Opportunistic ventures on the LED front capitalize on the market/hobby, focus on margin, and drive their costs down specifically around the components used to build their product - in turn hurt us in the wallet for no good reason. The wallet burn pushes our expectations into the higher levels ... which is dangerous But the strong DIY's will always demonstrate how effective their solutions are because they use top-notch components, and pay their own labor/experience to yield results that would cost a LED manufacturers $$x100 to reproduce at scale.

That said, as a community of hobbyists there will always be debates that provoke thought, and we should continue to push these conversations. Its just tough - as hobbyists - for us to provide the empirical data that is controlled to yield a specific on LED's which could be used as absolute fact. Time will tell.... (i know MH's have a clear position since that technology has been around for years)

just my $0.02

[DavidinGA]

Personally I think the price on the higher end LED's is where people have really been turned off to the benefits of LED's part in lighting. I don't really see the benefits of dropping all the cash on "high-end" led's. Customized K looks, ramping up/down, syc'ing, wireless, etc. its all bells and whistle that at the end of the day are a waste of money imo. Plus, I don't feel LED's alone can yet match a MH lit sps tank; you still need LED + T5's imo.


Right now I feel you can build a solid sps tank with cheap LED's and T5's. You can pick up those 55 led boxes off ebay for as little as $75 a piece that will light a 24"x24" area for sps. Add some miro-4 ATI retro T5's and your in business.

The guy with the 300g DD tank would need 4-6 $75 LED boxes and say 4 60" retro T5's.

6 LED boxes run you $450
4 bulb retro ATI T5's cost $260
4 60" bulbs $84

Total: $794

That's super cheap in my book to light a hardcore 300gal DD sps tank. If you still don't think that's enough light jump up to a 6 bulb retro T5 setup for only $172 more.

:bounce1:

[BigCountry74]

I would love to try a Radion Pro G3. Loan me 750 bucks :D

I tried the first gen cheap chinese LEDs (white and blue). They grew coralline for me, that was about it to be honest.

I decided to try a 14k phoenx MH this time around. It works. I can noticably "see" my coral frags growing. And it's cheaper to run over time than dropping mad cash on the upper tier LEDs, just run the math...the only thing that sucks is the heat. There is no escaping it haha

In the end I guess it all boils down to water quality when it comes to LED, that and a good fixture like the EcoTechs or the Kessils. You can get growth.

But you cannot have crappy water and expect LEDs to bail you out, or any light source for that matter :D

[BigCountry74]

Element of absolute truth here... Self-Justification on questionable investment or products drives opinion to a large extent, just like all other hobby's or any 'results' based activities.

I enjoy the discussion here, and it's definitely constructive. From my perspective the large LED manufacturers have targeted the hobby (no surprise there), the technology is present, and if they - the manufacturers - were reading these threads/forums; i guarantee they are listening - It's critical to their business, and it will eventually change.

Opportunistic ventures on the LED front capitalize on the market/hobby, focus on margin, and drive their costs down specifically around the components used to build their product - in turn hurt us in the wallet for no good reason. The wallet burn pushes our expectations into the higher levels ... which is dangerous But the strong DIY's will always demonstrate how effective their solutions are because they use top-notch components, and pay their own labor/experience to yield results that would cost a LED manufacturers $$x100 to reproduce at scale.

That said, as a community of hobbyists there will always be debates that provoke thought, and we should continue to push these conversations. Its just tough - as hobbyists - for us to provide the empirical data that is controlled to yield a specific on LED's which could be used as absolute fact. Time will tell.... (i know MH's have a clear position since that technology has been around for years)

just my $0.02

X2

:beer:

[cleverbs]

Personally I think the price on the higher end LED's is where people have really been turned off to the benefits of LED's part in lighting. I don't really see the benefits of dropping all the cash on "high-end" led's. Customized K looks, ramping up/down, syc'ing, wireless, etc. its all bells and whistle that at the end of the day are a waste of money imo. Plus, I don't feel LED's alone can yet match a MH lit sps tank; you still need LED + T5's imo.


Right now I feel you can build a solid sps tank with cheap LED's and T5's. You can pick up those 55 led boxes off ebay for as little as $75 a piece that will light a 24"x24" area for sps. Add some miro-4 ATI retro T5's and your in business.

The guy with the 300g DD tank would need 4-6 $75 LED boxes and say 4 60" retro T5's.

6 LED boxes run you $450
4 bulb retro ATI T5's cost $260
4 60" bulbs $84

Total: $794

That's super cheap in my book to light a hardcore 300gal DD sps tank. If you still don't think that's enough light jump up to a 6 bulb retro T5 setup for only $172 more.

:bounce1:

I agree with this. And honestly the only reason I didnt go down this path is because I needed a fixture as I dont use a canopy and refuse to have one on my current tank.

[dkeller_nc]

In my opinion, a lot of folks that note success with LED fixtures are using the newest ones; specifically those with so-called "UV LEDs" and "Violet LEDs". I've not seen a tank lit with LEDs of the previous generations that didn't have any output in the far-blue spectrum that looked good (and I saw a lot of AI-Sol lit tanks). My own experience with the AI Vegas was similarly dismal; many SPS corals would either not survive or drastically change color and go into growth stasis under these lights.

Contrast that with my latest attempt - replacing 2 AI Vegas over a 50g cube with a Gen3 Radion Pro. I've lost no new acquisitions over the 3 months I've had this light over this tank, and some of the ones that had changed colors and stopped growing with the AI Vegas are re-coloring and the tips have started growing again.

Telling in this is that I was unable to get SPS coral fragments taken from parent colonies that have been long-term residents in my other tanks (under fluorescent lighting) to survive in the tank with the Vegas.

This is my take on this: there is no question that there are some missing emission frequencies in all LED fixtures compared to the spectrum of metal halides and fluorescents. Newer LED fixtures have radically improved the situation of just 3 years ago, but they still do not have the radiometric emission profile of the older lighting technologies. This might account for some of the issues reported in the forums with LED-only lighted aquariums.

That said, there is also no doubt that their are some serious advantages in terms of controllability and waste heat generation for LED fixtures, and I'll continue to use them over smaller tanks. However, also in my opinion, the number of fixtures over a specific tank area that the manufacturers' recommend are seriously underestimated; most tanks that are intended as mimics of the reef crest with high-intensity lighting and water flow will require approximately double the recommended number of fixtures. That makes the monetary penalty for the controllability and lack of heat generation very high indeed.

[GroktheCube]

I see three problems with many LED setups that create negative sentiments:
- Spectrum: Many fixtures really lack below 450nm. Even most of the best have a bit of a blank spot between 430 and 450.
- Spread: LEDs often create hotspots, and are an even more focused point source than MHs. I think using a combination of lenses and reflectors would help. Shadowing is often a problem.
- Price: High end LED fixtures are comically expensive, especially given the need to run more than mfr recommendations in many cases to help rectify problem two. The price of LED units is usually many times the RETAIL price of the diodes and drivers needed for an identical DIY setup. More competition may help, but given the current high price points, many would be skeptical of an LED fixture retailing for a third of what the big names do. Given that virtually everyone is using OTS diodes from big manufacturers like Cree, the prices seem very hard to justify.

I've seen plenty of great looking LED tanks, but these three issues are a big part of why I think we're seeing some backlash, especially when complexity is taken into account. Throw Radiums and some ATI tubes over a tank, and you KNOW the lights work, no tinkering needed.

[Wazzel]

LEDs work, but are not the correct lighting system for everyone. It is another adequate system with pros and cons like the others. IMO the issues with LEDs get over exaggerated in an attempt to make a point. The biggest obstacle I see with LEDs is the controllability. The system were put out there with little to no guidance from the manufacturer and we were asked to figure it out on our own. Since we are mostly hobbyist and not marine biologist or whatever there is lots of guess work, trial and error, etc. Things happen in our tanks and we assign a cause not really knowing if it was or not. Most people are good at making logical assumptions, but in they end they are just that. I guess I am one of the lucky ones, in that my approach to LED lighting seems to be working just fine.

[hart24601]

I guess I am a lucky one too. Every LED system I have tried has worked with no fuss, no issues and overall has been a positive experience. Retrofitted a biocube 14 with panorama pros, worked great, no bleaching grew sps fantastic. Sold those and got steves kit, those worked just fine, I just set it where I wanted and left it. Same with reefbreeders, won an acro growout contest, and now having good results with AI. Any issues I have had I can directly trace to water chemistry or something else I did. Quite frankly I have found LED to be easy and have worked better for me than t5 or MH did, but it's not the lights fault, I have grown as a reefer since I used those older lights but I wouldn't go back if someone gave me a fixture.

[hobbzz]

The guy with the 300g DD tank would need 4-6 $75 LED boxes and say 4 60" retro T5's.

6 LED boxes run you $450
4 bulb retro ATI T5's cost $260
4 60" bulbs $84

Total: $794

That's super cheap in my book to light a hardcore 300gal DD sps tank. If you still don't think that's enough light jump up to a 6 bulb retro T5 setup for only $172 more.

:bounce1:

That's actually what I'm doing. My diy setup I've been using for 4 years is bridgelux and meanwhile drivers on 6x20 heatsinks. Built for my old 120 g. I'm filling in the new and with the eBay reefbreeders. 4@$90 plus my two diy fixtures and 6- 24" vho superactinic.

[cleverbs]

That's actually what I'm doing. My diy setup I've been using for 4 years is bridgelux and meanwhile drivers on 6x20 heatsinks. Built for my old 120 g. I'm filling in the new and with the eBay reefbreeders. 4@$90 plus my two diy fixtures and 6- 24" vho superactinic.

talk about old school rockin some VHO!

[saf1]

Another opinion thrown into the fray is that it is personal opinion, choice, results, and to some degree biasness. All things being equal nothing in this hobby works the same if I try and replicate anyone tank on this forum. I sure in the heck don't know the exact evolution of saltwater tanks but I know they have been kept for some time now. And during that time lighting has gone through various stages from standard incandescent, to fluorescent, to VHO, then super VHO, then T5's, through metal halide and now LED.

People have had success using all of them and probably will continue today and tomorrow. Of course one will say how do you measure success which again is a loaded question but in the end it comes down to the tank owner and what they use to measure it.

LED is still somewhat new compared to other lighting and manufactures evolve their kits based on how the LED evolves year over year. Single chip, multi chip, colors, spectrum, etc. I'd say it is changing at a faster pace then standard incandescent and fluorescents which doesn't help the cause.

I went to LED because I wanted to control the color spectrum and intensity. I could also do some cool stuff with weather patterns (clouds) using my reef angel controller. Neutral white, royal blue, blue, lime, violet, and deep red with individual control when they go on and off plus power / intensity means I can get the temperature that is most pleasing to me and the tank.

At least that is how I see anyway.

[ThRoewer]

The reason why I went with LEDs were first power consumption and secondly consistency of spectrum.
The problems I had in the past with MHs were that the spectrum of the bulb would slowly shift with age. To avoid this becoming a problem you would need to change bulbs at least every 6 months, better every 3.
But back then (80s and 90s) it was hard to find two bulbs with precisely the same spectrum unless you bought a few boxes of the same lot - which in fact some did.
I never had the money for that and so mostly stuck to fluorescent tubes (of which I could get boxes full for cheap).

Now I have 2 Kessil A360We - one over my current cube, the 2nd will be added to the new tank.
The coral coloring seems to be better than under the T5s that one of my local store uses, but I do feel there are some shortcomings in the spectrum of the Kessils when it comes to some corals growth (specifically Acropora).

So my plan is to substitute my 2 Kessils with 2 to 4 T5s.

MH are out of the question due to their excessive energy consumption, frequent bulb changes and heat development.

[danil]

I had all type of lights and settle on LED for few major reasons.
1. Overall cost of hardware and energy saving.
2. Less heat (which means less money toward cooling the tank).

Yes. MH is better light overall. It's more forgiven and looks great (I like phoenix bulb).
But you can have great tank with LED. Corals are very adaptive organisms and can survive in wide spectrum of lights. They just need time to go through transitional time from one light type to another. Some corals do better under MH some do better under LED others do about the same.
So. If financial aspect isn't bother your at all and you don't mind cooling your tank MH will work nicely for you. If you count pennies - go LED and start buying corals from LED tanks. This way you'll be fine since acclimation won't be so harsh.

[hobbzz]

talk about old school rockin some VHO!

Vho actinic are hands down the best. You would be hard pressed to find experienced people that don't agree.

[DaveRaz]

I've only used one kind of lighting as I'm a rookie reefer. The razors I have are growing all my corals very well as far as I can tell. I only have 8 different sps that are all montipora and they grow super fast as far as I am concerned. But again, I don't have anything to compare to. Zoa's multiply about 2 polyps per week (about 10 different varieties) and all the Lps are doing well.

This whole lighting discussion is best to death. Suppose I will grab some acros and see for myself here soon.

[Scubareefman]

I ran T5s for years then went to LED. After investing a lot of time and money in finding the perfect LED or LED T5 combo for my system I came to a conclusion. Now this is only my own experience with no real science to back it up.
I spent around $2500 total on different LED systems ranging from Kessil 150s and 350s, Aquaticlife 3watts setups, Ecotech super high priced #$%$# and many more. I have a closet full of LEDs and have event given several away to fellow reefers just so they get used for something.
My reefer friend has had a MH+T5 setup for years. I used his system as a baseline and never quite matched it, regardless of what LED system I used.
I am currently setting up a 60 gallon (nano) system and have decided on a Radium 250w with M80 with two kessil 150w's for sunrise and set. I'll see how that goes.

I'm aware no two systems are the same, and also aware that many of the problems blamed on LED's are in fact nothing to do with the lighting. Just in a side by side over several years LEDs never matched MH imo only.

cheers
My doc gave me new pain meds and I'm high as a bird ATM so I hope that made some sort of since.

[d2mini]

to change bulbs at least every 6 months, better every 3.
But back then (80s and 90s) it was hard to find two bulbs with precisely the same spectrum unless you bought a few boxes of the same lot - which in fact some did.

Wow, that's insane. haha
My radiums have been running for 14 months.

[dkeller_nc]

Wow, that's insane. haha
My radiums have been running for 14 months.

Yeah, I've never heard of anyone switching out MH bulbs as often as once every 6 months, much less 3. And that was in the old days of 6500K bulbs and a whole lot less consistency than is the case today. And at least in my opinion, running T5HOs/VHOs in combination with MH mitigates the spectrum shift to some extent.

[cleverbs]

Vho actinic are hands down the best. You would be hard pressed to find experienced people that don't agree.

Oh I have heard that they are the best. I was supporting your motion to go vho