Could you even think of running a tank without automation / control anymore?

[nuxx]

Hey guys,

Was just thinking how different our current system is from our last system in terms of controllability and automation.

Used to have to manually top off our last tank, lights were on an on / off timer and the heater was controlled by it's own thermostat... and the water changes...

Now our Apex and other controllers control everything... it's so easy to take it for granted...

- Water Changes : Apex and DoS, done. New water sits in a 50 gallon holding tank, old water drains into the washing machine's drain.
- Top Off : Avast Marine's ATO system handles that like a champ. Plumbed into a 50 gallon holding tank connected to our RODI system.
- Lighting : Kessil A360WEs are controlled by the APEX and ramp up during the morning and down at night, with random "cloudy" periods.
- Heaters : Controlled by the APEX.
- Cleaning the Skimmer : Just ordered Avast Marine's Swabbie to take care of cleaning the neck multiple times a day.
- Dosing will be the next thing to automate...

Not to even mention all the monitoring, stats and alerts that the Apex puts at your fingertips.

Kind of crazy, I really couldn't imagine doing this manually :lolspin:

What do you guys think? Could you ever go back to a dumb system?

[jacksonpt]

My system is dumb. Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but for those of us with smaller tanks, the cost of a contoller is harder to justify (IMO).

There is something to be said for simplicity.

[nuxx]

My system is dumb. Perhaps ignorance is bliss, but for those of us with smaller tanks, the cost of a contoller is harder to justify (IMO).

There is something to be said for simplicity.

Good point. We ran our 55 gallon for years with no issues.

55 Gallon Tank, HOB Skimmer, Canister Filter with Rubble, Heater, 2 Powerheads and LEDs on timers.

Worked fine and even grew SPS.

Seemed like I spent more time working on that tank than we do with over 10x the water volume now.

Honestly I just do feedings each day and clean the glass once a week. Almost feel bad how lazy all the stuff has made me.

Our frag tank will be a "dumb" tank, at least starting it. No plans on a controller... just ATO.

[sirreal63]

I guess you could say I have a dumb system, that is, if by dumb you mean it has no all in one controller. But it is hard to dispute over a decade of equipment use with no major failures, excellent equipment choices and no single point of failure for the tank. In my opinion using an all in one controller is dumb in a different way. I could never imagine myself using a controller, but I am perhaps too old school and I have the benefit of experience and learned how to manage a tank without an electronic crutch that may be that single point of failure that should be avoided.

Considering the number of tanks that have been taken out by controllers over the years, I will pass. I don't need one, it wouldn't do anything for me that I need and the risk isn't worth the reward. To each their own, but I would strongly encourage someone to know how to keep their tank happy without the need in a controller. :beer:

[d2mini]

Nanos, not much of a problem. ATO is nice, but not much else needed.

But for the big tank, no... I would not want to run without a controller and some automation.

[nuxx]

Guess was asking more for those who have used a controller, if they could go back.

Before I had the Apex, I didn't see the need for one either. Just seemed like an expensive toy.

[jacksonpt]

I've got MP10s, so my pumps are kind of smart.
My lights are on timers, which is more than fine.
I've got a basic ATO.

Some kind of automated water change setup would be nice, but because of the nature/placement of my tank, I could never set something like that up.

Otherwise, I have no real desire for any of the benefits of a controller... even back when I had a bigger tank. I'm planning out an upgrade to a 120 now, and I have no plans to go with a controller.

I think a lot of it is personal preference - how you setup your tank and how "involved" with it you want to be. I do very little with my tank. Occasional feeding, water changes every other week or so... that's about it. The less I fuss with it, the less fussing it seems to require. My tank is intentionally understocked and is generally self sufficient. Me poking around with it usually causes more problems than it fixes.

Just my 2 cents. I like gadgets and would love to fuss with a controller at some point, but the value just isn't there for me.

[jacksonpt]

Guess was asking more for those who have used a controller, if they could go back.

Before I had the Apex, I didn't use the need for one either. Just seemed like an expensive toy.

That's a very fair point. Hard to see the value in something, especially when that values is largely convenience, when you don't have any first hand experience.

[Peter Eichler]

I still have a brand new apex sitting in a bucket ready to be installed, it's been almost two years since my RL took a crap and i haven't missed it. If it wasn't for me traveling a lot I probably wouldn't have bothered with the Apex.

[Raul-7]

Nope, have an AWC scheduled at 3PM. Have an alarm to watch it all unfold.

My Apex has also saved me; my return pump stalled and my sump high-level float triggered causing me to go down and see what was wrong.

[Azedenkae]

Besides my heater being controlled by its own thermostat, my setup is dumb. :P

[kmbyrnes]

Not totally automated, but the Radions, ATO and dosing pumps mean I can spend more time watching than doing. I really think the dosing pumps have made a big difference.
Tanks look better and the livestock is 'livelier' due to more consistent parameters.
Still have all the weekly manual labor, but that is relaxation in its own way.

[CuzzA]

Anymore every new gadget has some level of controller with it. From ATO's to lights, from dosing pumps to powerheads. They all have a computer on board. In reality there's a lot of redundancy, but putting it all together on one controller makes it worth while.

For me, it's more the fail safes and alerts that would prevent me from going to a "dumb" tank. Too much money invested to have something like a $25 heater fail and kill everything.

[soulpatch]

Heck I have a full blown apex on my biocube 29. I couldn't imagine going back to a time without it. Controls all of my items like my skimmer, ato, reactor, lights, heater, pumps, ect. For one with a toddler it makes this tank possible with my limited time.

I also spend weekends away at the motorcycle track or golfing so having the ablity to check on things or toggle things off if need arises is a life saver.

[zachfishman]

IMO more automation and controller jazz = more possibility for stuff to malfunction. Then again my opinion would probably be much different if I had a lot more disposable income :)

[soulpatch]

IMO more automation and controller jazz = more possibility for stuff to malfunction. Then again my opinion would probably be much different if I had a lot more disposable income :)

Not really more chance for it to malfunction since as Cuzza said most things have their own controllers built in. The controller simply adds a layer of redundancy while also adding some awesome user friendly features like alerts and easy on/off of items.

Though the reliance on these systems to do everything right can lead to laziness and issues down the line. There I would agree that they can cause issues...

[smedlin]

Hmm.....

I've had my 150g tank for 13 years now. Been up non-stop and only crashed once (hurricane Ike-> no power for 13 days).

I JUST recently built an RO/DO unit.

JUST recently got a skimmer.

JUST recently built a canopy and put spiffy lights in it (well, still working on that $##$## canopy actually).

JUST recently (like a week ago) installed a seneye for monitoring (but.. maybe I should have gone with apex...)

I don't yet have an ATO or anything like that.

Sooo.. basically until VERY recently, I was all manual on a 150G.

[shaggss]

For me, it's more the fail safes and alerts that would prevent me from going to a "dumb" tank. Too much money invested to have something like a $25 heater fail and kill everything.

Exactly. Why spend so much money on your tank only to have this happen. The price of a controller is insignificant to the total cost of some systems and livestock.

[hogfanreefer]

The two things I would most miss without a controller are dosing and monitoring/failsafes. Because of my tank location and room set up I will never be able to have an automatic water change system but I can't miss what I've never had.

[sirreal63]

Controllers can be a good thing, except for the times when they fail and take out a tank, then the price for one becomes a really bad expense. They are great for monitoring, but to plug life support equipment into a single point of failure is risky, this is why mission critical devices never rely in a single device for control. If you have ever had someone you know who lost a beautiful tank because their controller locked up, you too would think twice about using one for control.

[ca1ore]

I wrestled for a long time with getting a controller ... or not. Primarily because of the 'single point of failure'. I've been keeping reef tanks since about 1988 and have had my apex for about 18 months. Managed just fine before that, and could manage fine again. But, ultimately I went for the convenience. I don't plug everything through it though. I keep the main pump separate, along with a backup heater and backup ATO; my Reefbreeders lights work off their own controller. It would be a major pain if my apex went blotto, but it'd not be tank fatal.

It is not possible to anticipate, and mitigate against, all potential failure points - controller or no controller. But I think you can be prepared for the big ones. In this context, no, I'd not want to be without my apex, even if I could.

[shaggss]

Controllers can be a good thing, except for the times when they fail and take out a tank, then the price for one becomes a really bad expense. They are great for monitoring, but to plug life support equipment into a single point of failure is risky, this is why mission critical devices never rely in a single device for control. If you have ever had someone you know who lost a beautiful tank because their controller locked up, you too would think twice about using one for control.


This is a very good point and the question was asked in the Profilux forum not so long ago.

Apparently IIRC, there is no recorded occurrence of a profilux failing.

Don't shoot the messenger! Just reporting what was said.

[Sn8kbyt]

I had no controller on my first saltwater tank and I think getting started that was a good thing. There is no better way to learn things than having them be done hands on. I learned things fairly quick on that tank after having freshwater tanks for over 20 years and started to realize how much time I wasted each week doing things that could easily be automated. I also left for a few days on a long weekend vacation and after weeks prior of checking and double checking thought I had everything covered. Boy was I wrong, there was a power outage/spike that kicked out the whole tank but one of 3 power strips I was running that needed a manual reset. That strip ran my return pump. Luckily it happened 8 hours before I returned and didn't lose much. That was when I started planning my future build with all the bells and whistles.

#1 benefit you get an email and or text warning something is wrong that is invaluable. Make sure your UPS is at least hooked up to your internet router and your controller so if your power goes out you get notification. You can then at least know there is a problem and react if you are away especially.

#2 benefit some things you can address and fix yourself anywhere on a computer or phone without having to call someone or have them go to your tank.

My time is also money and I am very busy so I set a very generous budget for the build. This solely because anyone that has a dumb tank knows the amount of time they spend each week keeping it happy I know I did it. There are so many things in this hobby we spend tons of time on routinely that could easily be done by a gadget and controller. At the end of a long day I want to come home and enjoy my tank and not bother with things that could have been done automatically with ease.

The con is the cost and I realize that everyone in this hobby can't afford a controller and the gadgets. You can run a successful tank without them almost all of us here probably started out without. Unless your a hermit, never take vacations, or leave your house for extended periods then they will be of no use to you. If you do a simple notification could save you 1 times PLUS in livestock over the cost of the unit. I know a few nice corals and a few fish in my first tank would have easily paid for a controller

[Sk8r]

I don't use a controller, unless you count the hardware timer on my lights. I run kalk with a float-switch driven ato. I run tests, but kalk holds the system steady. That's it. Cost less than 100.00 for the whole 'control' system.

[alton]

For $120 my RKL turns everything on and off. If my tank gets too hot, it turns my lights off, if it gets too cold turns my heater on. Simple and easy. I do my own top off and water changes

[smatter]

I like looking at my tanks. While I'm in front of them another thing I like to do is take care of them. I don't know which I like better.

[nuxx]

The one thing that bothers me about the Apex is that it doesn't alert you if there is a power outage, which can be bad even here in Texas during the summer.

I've thought about writing a program that pings our home IP and sends me an email / text if there isn't a reply for some period of time. Might just be the cable modem going down, but more than likely would be a power outage. I'd rather have some false warnings instead of missing a real one though ;)

[CuzzA]

The one thing that bothers me about the Apex is that it doesn't alert you if there is a power outage, which can be bad even here in Texas during the summer.

I've thought about writing a program that pings our home IP and sends me an email / text if there isn't a reply for some period of time. Might just be the cable modem going down, but more than likely would be a power outage. I'd rather have some false warnings instead of missing a real one though ;)

www.reeftronics.net

They will email/text you if they lose communication with your controller for one hour.

I don't buy into the idea that a controller can wipe out your tank. You just have to be smart about how you set it up. Programming multiple fail safes. The correct fall backs. Splitting essential life support equipment on multiple circuits, keeping some things off the controller. Using battery back ups, etc. etc.

My system is on two separate 20 amp circuits. My main Jebao wave makers are on marine battery backup as well as my Apex brain. A power failure won't stop my wave makers as they will operate for over 24 hours on battery power. I also have a Koralia 425 behind my rock work that is on a separate circuit from the Jebaos and also on the battery backup. This way in the unlikely event the controller freezes the Koralia will still be providing enough flow for life support.

Other important things to add to the controller are float switches, solenoids and extra programming lines. For example, every body of water has a high level float switch which will close solenoids, turn off pumps and send text message alerts plus sound an alarm. In conjunction with that, I also add programming where if certain monitored parameters change it will shut off pumps, close solenoids, send text message alerts plus sound an alarm. For example, if my ph and/or conductivity drop too low a solenoid will close my top off line. If they get too high, they will close dosing pumps, kalk reactors, etc.

There's so many things you can do to protect both your investment and the lives within the tank. It's a no brainier to add a brain to your tank.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=315374&stc=1&d=1429628420

[etepperman]

I could never see the benefit of using a controller. Temp, Top off and Lights all run on their own systems.

[sirreal63]

I don't buy into the idea that a controller can wipe out your tank. You just have to be smart about how you set it up. Programming multiple fail safes. The correct fall backs. Splitting essential life support equipment on multiple circuits, keeping some things off the controller. Using battery back ups, etc. etc.


Look into what happens when a controller "locks up", which is the same thing that happens when a PC gets a BSOD. It does happen, and it has taken out tanks. I do not know how long you have been in the hobby, but after over a decade on this forum I have seen numerous tanks taken out because of a controller lockup. No amount of programming can overcome a locked CPU. Fortunately it doesn't happen often, but when it happens it is not a good thing.

The bold/italic from above is one of the best things you can do to help safeguard your tank.

[d2mini]

I honestly can't think of a way my controller would crash my tank. Even if it "locks up", I don't have it controlling anything that would cause a major problem. And I've never even heard of a Profilux locking up, especially in an ON state.

For me the benefits of a controller is two-fold.
1) Automation like auto water changes and ATO.
2) Knowledge. I always now what's going on. Even right now at work, i have access to the major parameters. I can catch things much earlier, even if an alarm isn't sent out. And alarms have saved me from having any major issues plenty of times.
If i'm out of town, I know exactly what's going on and someone can be sent to help out if needed.
The thought of being completely in the dark when away from home really scares me.

[jacksonpt]

Not to side-track TOOO much, but for those of you who believe in/recommend controllers - can you give us the top 3-5 benefits you get from it? Also, specificity would be great, here... something like, "it allowed me to automate so much" isn't all that helpful. A couple of you already have... I'd love to see more of it.

I'm not trying to start an argument... just trying to see how people justify the cost, and see if there is some benefit to me that I haven't already thought about.

TIA.

[laga77]

I do not have a controller, but the AWC systems on both of my tanks have been wonderful. Saves so much time and effort, and my parameters have become very stable.

[reefgeezer]

I don't use a controller, but I use digital timers, float switches, and my power heads have their own controllers, so I guess that qualifies as not completely dumb. I wouldn't go back to absolutely dumb. Top off, turning the lights on & off, etc. are way too easy & cheap to automate. Why not?

[ca1ore]

Not to side-track TOOO much, but for those of you who believe in/recommend controllers - can you give us the top 3-5 benefits you get from it? Also, specificity would be great, here... something like, "it allowed me to automate so much" isn't all that helpful. A couple of you already have... I'd love to see more of it.

I'm not trying to start an argument... just trying to see how people justify the cost, and see if there is some benefit to me that I haven't already thought about.

TIA.

Sure, off the top of my head ....

1. Alerts me right away of a potential problem. I have programmed a 'major problem' alert which is for things like sump water level, water on the floor, major swings in temperature, pH etc. I have also programmed a 'minor problem' alert which is for things like empty doing containers, ORP changes, etc. Allows me to 'catch' things before they become a problem.
2. I am a big Vortech fan, but I HATE the cludgy programming. I don't plug them through my apex, but I do control them via the wireless module. Much easier.
3. Remote monitoring/control - much easier now with Apex Fusion.
4. Ability to inter-control parameters. An example would be to use salinity measurement as a further failsafe for my ATO.
5. Convenience. My sump room is a rats-nest of wires and pipes. MUCH easier to turn off a piece of equipment from the console than trying to figure out which wire is which.

[CuzzA]

Look into what happens when a controller "locks up", which is the same thing that happens when a PC gets a BSOD. It does happen, and it has taken out tanks. I do not know how long you have been in the hobby, but after over a decade on this forum I have seen numerous tanks taken out because of a controller lockup. No amount of programming can overcome a locked CPU. Fortunately it doesn't happen often, but when it happens it is not a good thing.

The bold/italic from above is one of the best things you can do to help safeguard your tank.

That is why I stated...

You just have to be smart about how you set it up.

[cleverbs]

I have some "Automation" I guess but thats only...

Lights turn on and off...MH/t5HO so not that challenging haha.
Heaters are controlled by a Probe but thats really only because I trust the probe more then the heater.
tank can be put on stand by...I guess thats nice.
auto dosing - I have the equipment but I dont dose right now.


I mean I wish I had auto water change and a skimmer neck cleaner however a neck cleaner wouldnt fit on my skimmer under the stand and the auto water change just isnt in the cards right now.

the only thing I can think of that I like "Automated" is lights on and off...someone I wouldnt want to do is turn on and off the lights by hand every day but light timers have been around for a very long time...Im thinking the only person who may know reef life without that around here is PaulB

Another thing I am working on is an Auto Feeder because thats one thing I really dont like is having to feed my tank. Id like it to feed a few times a day so I dont have to.

[3dees]

my tank is about as dumb as can be. no sump, hob skimmer, two Chinese dimmable led's, two Jeboa powerheads, Tru-Temp heater. 120gal. softie/lps going on two years. all that auto stuff is too confusing for this old timer.

[Holyreefer]

"Dumb Tank" LOL

[nuxx]

my tank is about as dumb as can be. no sump, hob skimmer, two Chinese dimmable led's, two Jeboa powerheads, Tru-Temp heater. 120gal. softie/lps going on two years. all that auto stuff is too confusing for this old timer.

The Jebaos have controllers ;)

[2_zoa]

I guess I don't really qualify as I've never owned a tank controller.

Having said that. I'm all for progress, however, I do think there needs to be moderation. There is always seems to be a down side that goes with every upside. They are not always evident in the beginning. I'm still not sure all this "smart" technology is such a grand idea. I mean that in all things our lives have been and are currently being bombarded with.

IMO Interaction with the things you choose to do/own is a great thing. Tanks, families, work, cars, etc... Which...is why I drive a '72' aircooled VW. :p

[Big E]

I guess you could say I have a dumb system, that is, if by dumb you mean it has no all in one controller. But it is hard to dispute over a decade of equipment use with no major failures, excellent equipment choices and no single point of failure for the tank. In my opinion using an all in one controller is dumb in a different way. I could never imagine myself using a controller, but I am perhaps too old school and I have the benefit of experience and learned how to manage a tank without an electronic crutch that may be that single point of failure that should be avoided.

Considering the number of tanks that have been taken out by controllers over the years, I will pass. I don't need one, it wouldn't do anything for me that I need and the risk isn't worth the reward. To each their own, but I would strongly encourage someone to know how to keep their tank happy without the need in a controller. :beer:

+1

I don't have half the problems most people do with so many unneeded devices and equipment.

I'll never own one of those controllers. I have a Ranco for temp control and digital timers for lights.

I do have a doser, but I have very small bottles of Alk & Calk so failure won't happen.

Water changes are small and inconsequential, but I do like the idea of smaller changes done by a Litermeter or other device.

I like to stay "connected" to my tank......all that automation makes it too easy to take things for granted.

[64Ivy]

Still fairly dumb here: An ATO and a Ranco controlling my chiller but that's about it. I DO engage a digital pit bull barking system whenever some kid hits a ball onto my lawn though.

[trivan]

I would never be able to have a tank w/o a controller with work/family. I do know over the course of the 4 years I have had a tank, I have manually caused more issues then my Apex - which is Zero. If the Apex has power, it always does what I have programmed. I think if you build in the correct fail safes in programming, test it for different scenarios and understand the limitations of the set up the issues/problems can be minimized.

[CuzzA]

Yep, just unplug your controller and see what happens. If your tank would die within the typical time you're away from it (work), then it's probably a good idea to look at some back up options. Pretty much the only thing I can think of is a Powerhead on a battery backup with a transfer switch separate of the controller.