jaredef's 55 gallon diy reef build

[jaredef]

I have zero experience in the saltwater hobby. But I've been creeping this forum and other great sources of info since I first got into the whole glass box obsession. I started out in the hobby by sending my girlfriend's roommate's dying betta fish to his watery grave using seltzer water. (bad idea, do not recommend)

Of course, I needed a replacement fish for the .5 gallon bowl so I got a black fancy goldfish. I soon discovered that they poop a whole lot and aren't well suited for .5 gallons of swimming room. So I upgraded to a 5 gallon bowl... and bought him another fancy goldfish friend. Of course this was a terrible idea, and the dinky internal bubble filter plugged up in half a day. I soon decided to upgrade to a 10 gallon glass box
http://i.imgur.com/rl4mim0h.jpg(still not big enough)

I soon nixed the goldfish and filled the tank with a few fresh water tropical fishes. This satisfied me for a few months.
http://i.imgur.com/JPJFJIKh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/4voQiYnh.jpg

I soon began contemplating a saltwater build. If there is one thing I've learned about this hobby it is that patience is the most important aspect of a build. So by default this will be a slow diy build. Doing things as I can and when I can.

I jumped on petco's dollar per gallon sale. Picked up a 55 gallon display, 20 gallon long for a sump, and a 10 gallon for a refugium (not pictured)
http://i.imgur.com/bp0zuMPh.jpg

After I made the purchase I discovered that the 55 gallon tetra tanks are tempered on all 5 sides. So I put my hole saw away and got out the pvc. I diy'd an internal overflow box out of some spare acrylic I had at my disposal. This saw made it quite easy going!
http://i.imgur.com/ySqOwFYh.jpg

I did not want to silicon anything to the back of my tank so I just made it completely self contained.
http://i.imgur.com/N8vLu5bh.jpg

I decided to go with a full siphon main drain and a durso stand pipe as a back up overflow and as a way to maintain the water level inside the weir box.
http://i.imgur.com/xQmzg4Hh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/hmKaOO0h.jpg

The stand is next, I'm going to do something pretty simple with 3/4 plywood.

[CuzzA]

I see you having a lot of issues with this setup, only to be redoing everything. For one, what's your plan to restart the siphon after a power outage? If the power comes back on the return pump is going to drain the return section and burn up and possibly flood your home. You can't run a durso like that so you have no back up.

You would be much better off returning the 55 and purchasing a 40 breeder. The 55, IMO, has a horrible footprint for a reef tank. The only pane that is tempered on the 40 is the bottom, so you could drill the back, make a coast to coast overflow (acrylic or glass) and run a beananimal drain.

I suggest spending more time research marine setups. A loose overflow box seems like a bad idea. Something I would not do if it were my tank. No sense in reinventing the wheel when many others before us have already perfected it.

Good luck.

[Clowny88]

Sounds like what I was looking for too at the dollar/gal sale at Petco.

I ended up spending $200 on a brand new Perfecto 75g with overflow built in. It's 18" deeper front to back... A MAJOR upgrade. Plus it was a 15 minute install.

Might want to consider this before pumping $ into the 55g. I know PVC and acrylic don't cost much... But even if it ends up a $75 tank in the end... The upgrade might be worth it.

I can relate to the need to upgrade (wasnt satisfied with my 45g)... This is the best long term purchase I ever made.

[jaredef]

Thanks for the interest gentlemen. The overflow really is just the Herby method. Not pictured is a ball valve on the outside of the tank controlling the siphon flow rate. The durso stand pipe just collects the rest of the water that the ball valve hasn't been tuned with the pump to perfectly return. I'm not at all reinventing the wheel just simply applying tried and true methods to my application.

I hear you on the forty breeder. If I had known at the time I probably would have gone with it. I like the length of the 55. I wish I could trade some height for length. But I'm fine with it. This tank will always be a humble reef. I'm planning on having it for several years and will learn to keep proper water chemistry in it. I won't be growing very many sps in this if at all. Honestly it will probably be a FOWLR tank for quite a while.

[cleverbs]

Thanks for the interest gentlemen. The overflow really is just the Herby method. Not pictured is a ball valve on the outside of the tank controlling the siphon flow rate. The durso stand pipe just collects the rest of the water that the ball valve hasn't been tuned with the pump to perfectly return. I'm not at all reinventing the wheel just simply applying tried and true methods to my application.

I hear you on the forty breeder. If I had known at the time I probably would have gone with it. I like the length of the 55. I wish I could trade some height for length. But I'm fine with it. This tank will always be a humble reef. I'm planning on having it for several years and will learn to keep proper water chemistry in it. I won't be growing very many sps in this if at all. Honestly it will probably be a FOWLR tank for quite a while.

the method you are using isnt tried and true. what you ahve done there is not going to work bud.

I know it sucks but I would return the tank, #1 a 55g tank is the worst possible tank out there for a sw tank. its terrible to scape and they never look good. Well I have seen 1 good looking 55g tank. I would go back get the 40g because they are a great tank and work amazing for a first tank.

[jaredef]

the method you are using isnt tried and true. what you ahve done there is not going to work bud.

I know it sucks but I would return the tank, #1 a 55g tank is the worst possible tank out there for a sw tank. its terrible to scape and they never look good. Well I have seen 1 good looking 55g tank. I would go back get the 40g because they are a great tank and work amazing for a first tank.
I'm curious what you mean exactly. The Herby overflow isn't tried and true? Or are you speaking more about my specific application?

[jacksonpt]

The problem is getting the water from the internal box to the external for the herbie. If/when that siphon breaks... then what?

[CuzzA]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you can heed our advice or experience the flood and redo everything after you've wasted a bunch of time, energy and money.

This is not at all the herbie method. The herbie method is a full siphon stand pipe and an emergency standpipe used on a "drilled" tank. Typically only used on predrilled reef ready tanks to eliminate the stock, less effective, less safe durso which has no emergency backup and is often loud.

A durso will not take excess water from the siphon the way you have created it. The water level would have to reach the 90 above the rim of the tank to start draining. Which ain't going to happen because the water will be on your floor. And again, the moment your design breaks siphon you're going to have a flood.

I will point out something you stated in your original post. You talked about having freshwater tanks. You kept buying bigger and bigger tanks until you finally got it right. Why not just do this tank right from the start? A goldfish dying is not the same as limited marine fish dying. We do not and cannot, at the moment, captive breed most marine fish. Your goal should be that any "pet" you buy, lives. Furthermore, freshwater is nothing like a marine system. Running an overflow without an emergency drain is a bad idea and that's why you see most everyone converting their durso to a herbie or even better, a beananimal drain. You may experience a number of different growths within your plumbing or that could get trapped in your plumbing from the tank. Whether it be macro algae, sponges, snails, etc. Aside from your creation not working, your asking for a flood.

This is what a herbie looks like. There is no durso drain.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=315404&stc=1&d=1429639078

And here is what a beananimal looks like.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=315405&stc=1&d=1429639383

[jaredef]

This overflow I'm using works very much like a Herby due to the use of a full siphon drain. The emergency drain I'm using is set up as a durso. Unlike the Herby this emergency drain will never reach full siphon because it is open to atmosphere on the back side of the tank. I'm planning on a low flow return pump 500 gph or less. One 3/4 durso drain would be enough to keep up with the pump but of course that is not wise. Especially when you're running a siphon over the top of the tank. I plan on using an aqualifter at the top of the siphon pipes or running a venturi style connection back to the return pipe in order to keep siphon.

[cleverbs]

This overflow I'm using works very much like a Herby due to the use of a full siphon drain. The emergency drain I'm using is set up as a durso. Unlike the Herby this emergency drain will never reach full siphon because it is open to atmosphere on the back side of the tank. I'm planning on a low flow return pump 500 gph or less. One 3/4 durso drain would be enough to keep up with the pump but of course that is not wise. Especially when you're running a siphon over the top of the tank. I plan on using an aqualifter at the top of the siphon pipes or running a venturi style connection back to the return pipe in order to keep siphon.

I dont know if you have ever done that before but this is a huge risk, Using an aqualifter does not mean you wont have any issues at all. They tend to break down and this happens easy even with a prefilter. Stuff gets clogged and they have less and less siphon. I know this because I did it for about 5 weeks with my 40 breeder and a true hang on the back overflow I had 2 floods in 5 weeks because the aqualifter would lose some power and it would allow air to get in a little at a time and cause an issue. Also adding the aqualifter to the "emergency" isnt going to work its going to be a problem because unless its running as a FULL siphon just sucking air out isnt going to work.

I really suggest you listen to our advice because we know what we are talking about. We have been in the hobby for years and are only trying to help you. from wasting money and or causing damage to your home. No and I repeat no reef tank should really be ran this way its just to dangerous you would be better off with not running a sump and getting a HOB skimmer.

[christopherjudd]

If you are really set on the 55, you are probably better off getting a hob overflow from life reef. Best out there...

[Clowny88]

you would be better off with not running a sump and getting a HOB skimmer.

+1 ... Are you dead set on a sump? And why?

[jaredef]

Mostly to get the equipment under the stand. I also want to set up a fuge to breed copepods for a mandarin.

[CStrickland]

You need to think of this as 2 separate things, a drain and an overflow. It is confusing because a lot of the same words are used for diff parts.
Herbies and Durso's are drains that take the water to the sump. They usually do that from the display tank, because a hole was drilled to bring the pipe up from the bottom or in from the side. they have a siphon in the sense that there is no air in the pipe, only water. That is quieter and allows greater flow.

Your tank also has a second siphon to lift the water over the back edge. That is where your problem is. If enough air gets into that pipe, the water will no longer be lifted up and over the back edge of the tank. Air will get into that pipe if the pump is too slow so small bubbles collect at the peak, or the pump shuts off and a bubble rises from the sump, or the tank drains far enough to let the drain pull some air in. Once that happens, there is no reason for the water to go into the pipe and down the drain rather than just over the edge and onto your floor.

The airlifter will suck air out of the tube to stop this, but they are notoriously unreliable. They are not made for that. You can find people who like them, but the majority did not stick with that method. Another way is to add a second box to the outside, with the drain in it. A tube runs up and over the back, just a U shape between the two boxes. Because both ends of the tube stay under water, they are much less likely to flood. This link has a cute animation of how it works when the pump starts and stops: [Melev] (http://www.melevsreef.com/node/710) this allows the overflow to work as an overflow and the drain to work as a drain.

You made a very nice box, you should make another one for the outside. The reason people don't do it like this is cause it doesn't work, not cause they never thought of it. Also, I have a 55. They are hard to clean, hard to oxygenate, and hard to aquascape - everything looks like a flat rock wall no matter what you do. They are freshwater tanks. Make sure you really want to deal with it before you get it wet.

Welcome to the forum! Youre going to have a lot of fun once you get all the kinks worked out :)

[jaredef]

Thanks for the time and consideration! Essentially my drains work like the external overflow box pictured in the animation. I will have to post a more detailed photo of the drain design. The siphon that removes the water from the internal overflow box is at all submerged. This is done by doubling back up with pvc before the gravity drain takes the water to the sump. This ensures that my full siphon drain will never drain the entire weir box in the event that my pump fails.

[CuzzA]

First of all you keep saying this is like a "Herbie" and it's not. Period, end of story. This is a single, full siphon hang on the back drain without an emergency. You can't run a durso above the rim of your tank! It is physically impossible. The laws of hydrodynamics do not allow it. Water is not going to travel up the pipe and above the rim of the tank while air is being let in. The water level in the pipe is going to be equal to the level within the tank. It will never drain because the water will overflow the rim of the tank before it reaches the level above the 90.

Furthermore, even if you had a properly setup durso, the flow rate of an open channel "durso" drain is much less than that of a full siphon. A durso drain will not be able to handle the amount of flow you will be pushing through the system. This is why on the beananimal drain we set the open channel air line down just above the water level so if the full siphon and/or emergency drain clogs the water will rise and occlude the airline and trigger the open channel to become a full siphon. The difference here is that the down turned 90 is below the rim of the tank.

Knock yourself out if you want to attempt this, but there is a reason why, if I had to guess, 90% of the people in this hobby run a durso, herbie or beananimal through a drilled tank. The other 10% with non drilled tanks use HOB equipment.

Notice the common denominator in all three types of drains I've posted including this one of the durso. They're all drilled and below the rim of the tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=315422&stc=1&d=1429653792

[cleverbs]

I really urge you to reconsider this overflow. I know you think it works and I know you put a lot of energy into it. But trust what we are telling you. We have all seen it fail and fail and fail over and over again. You arnt doing anything different from the people who have failed. You will be so much better off doing it right.

[jaredef]

I'm still not quite sure you guys understand how this system works. For that I can't fault you because you can't really see how it works from the photos. The "emergency" drain really is a durso style. It off indeed open to the atmosphere. The reason it works is because I am using a siphon to get the water out of the tank. But the siphon is interrupted on the back side of the tank using a PVC U shape design to ensure that the siphon is never interrupted by the exposure to the atmosphere. This works because air will never travel against gravity through water without force. You are correct a standard durso could never siphon water. But when you add the siphon feature to it will maintain a water level in the siphon when it reaches equilibrium. the rest of the water just flows down the durso drain. This works no matter how great the flow. even if there is no flow. That is why it works after a pump shut down and restart.

[CStrickland]

Yeah, pics of the back would prolly help. I figured the emergency is was one of these disasters (maybe with the air vent modded) and the main is the standard airlifter disaster.

I appreciate you being patient, we are just worried about you, but it must be annoying to be so psyched and have everybody all "nah" about it :)

[jaredef]

No not annoyed at all. That is similar to the "emergency" drain in running. Any experience with it? What is the usual disaster causing culprit with this design?

[cleverbs]

It's not that we don't understand. We fully understand because we have all seen these before. We just want you to understand they don't work well and almost eveyone who tries to do it has a huge issue come up.

[jaredef]

I could definitely see if you are only utilizing one of those drains it could become problematic. I haven't encountered any setup like that that utilizes a full siphon as well. The water that will be flowing through the emergency drain will be minimal making it far less likely for a bubble to get trapped in the top of the siphon pipe.

[cleverbs]

The issue is this. If the power goes out you arnt going to have equal flow when it starts back up....the aqua lifter can't remove that much air that's in the pvc by the time your tank is overflowing.

I think that you are thinking we don't know what you are talking about but we do. I have about 5 years in saltwater now and iv been active on forums. Much more on another one and seen this method before and see. It fail quickly. I even failed at it using a much better method that was as good as it gets with a hob overflow. I mean just look at the posts. You have multiple people saying oh no don't do this. And we are saying it because we are looking out for you. You don't have a single person saying oh nice that will work that's because we all have seen it fail way way way to many times. I'm not going to post any more trying to convince you to shy away from this overflow design. I'll be happy to continue posting in regards to your thoughts on a different method or any other plans for the tank. I just don't want be beat a dead horse :)

I really hope you take our advice and know we really are looking out for you. You can tell by the fact that all of us in this thread have posted different reasons not to do it and are really try to push you not to because we care and don't want to see it fail. You will have a lot invested into your tank and the worst thing that can happen is flooding the tank losing your fish coral equipment and damage your home all in order to save very little money. I can tell you your tank is one of the cheapest things in your setup. My lights cost almost double the price of my tank and my skimmer cost the same amount as my tank and it's a 220g tank. Just to give you an example right now your tank cost 55$ I bought a single sps coral today about 3" tall and 2" wide that cost 75$ now I know that not everyone has the same amount of disposable income when it comes to a hobby so my point isn't how much I spent its that you will quickly have way more money in fish and coral that will be many times the cost of your tank even if you spent 200$ On a reef ready tank or what ever. IMO I would do a 40g breeder from the 1$ per gallon sale because they are great tanks and perfect and I mean perfect beginner tanks.

The reasons they are nice is they have a great footprint because the are nice and wide and not to deep. This allows you to have a nice looking aqua scale that you can't get with a 55 gallon because there's no way to get that depth with such a tall and narrow tank. They are also a nice starter because they can look very full of coral with very little invested in coral so it's nice to have that feeling of a full reef. It's always hard to look at a large reef that looks empty for 2-4 years while it grows in.
Also you will be able to drill it and make a nice overflow that will work well and you won't have any weekly work on and tinkering.

[jaredef]

Yeah, pics of the back would prolly help.
Ya I'll get those for ya.

The issue is this. If the power goes out you arnt going to have equal flow when it starts back up....the aqua lifter can't remove that much air that's in the pvc by the time your tank is overflowing.
No. There will not be any air for the aqualifter to pump out. When the return pump shuts off the water level in the weir will reach equilibrium with that of the height of the U bend on the backside of the tank. Although I would probably be more apt to just run a venturi line back to my return pipe instead of using an aqualifter.

This is a single, full siphon hang on the back drain without an emergency. You can't run a durso above the rim of your tank! It is physically impossible. The laws of hydrodynamics do not allow it.
Incorrect. The main drain is a complete siphon to the sump. The flowrate of this full siphon is adjusted with a ball valve on the backside of the tank The secondary drain is only siphon from the interior overflow box to the exterior backside where there is a U bend forcing the water to flow over into the durso style drain. At this point the siphon is broken as it is exposed to atmosphere. This drain only picks up a minimal amount of flow unless my other drain clogs or breaks siphon. This reduces the secondary drains chance of bringing in bubbles to the siphon because (theoretically) the flow will be so minimal that any air bubbles that might be taken through the siphon could not because the velocity of the flow is so low. Bubbles would just stay on the surface not being sucked in. On both of these siphons I plan to use venturi tubes to continually suck water (or the occasional bubble) back into the return pipe coming from the pump.

The problem is getting the water from the internal box to the external for the herbie. If/when that siphon breaks... then what?
Indeed. If both siphons break I'm most definitely going to have at least 5-10 gallons of water on my floor. I'm counting on my this design to lose siphon never. ;)