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View Full Version : Captive bred vs wild caught: saving the reefs?


pufferish
05/25/2015, 10:11 AM
Do you think it really makes a difference in the long run? I've heard people say that it's pointless because the real problem is habitat loss but it makes sense to me.

I've yet to get any saltwater fish or any corals but when I do, I plan on going the captive bred route if it is at all possible.


Your opinions and feelings?

juniorrocketdad
05/25/2015, 10:52 AM
It does help but some fish don't need it, for example, the masked angel was bred in captivity and it was one of the rarest fish in the ocean, we can help make sure it doesn't go extinct, but many fish it doesn't really make a difference as much to the overall population in the ocean but they are much hardier and easier to keep if they are captive bred, for example clownfish are much easier to keep if they were captive bred because they were grown up on prepared food and they are exposed to a lot less diseases

Azedenkae
05/25/2015, 03:40 PM
I agree with the above. I guess if the question is 'does it help' then yes it always helps, but 'is it significant?' is another story altogether. Which yeah as above depends on rarity.

billsreef
05/25/2015, 05:57 PM
Captive bred are often in better shape then the comparable wild caught, making them a better value for your dollar. In some cases (not all, just some), populations are heavily enough fished that aquacultured specimens will relieve some fishing pressure. As for habitat loss, that is indeed a large problem, but not the only one, so every little bit helps ;)

snorvich
05/25/2015, 06:37 PM
Fish which have restricted territories and highly regulated capture rates when bred in captivity are excellent buys.

Bruce51
05/25/2015, 06:48 PM
Do captive bred fish still need to be quarantined?

reefwiser
05/25/2015, 06:51 PM
When I started keeping fish in the early 60's most freshwater fish where wild caught too. Now only a few still are. Look at how easy freshwater fish are to keep nowadays. If we support captive breeding we can get to that point with both fish and corals.

juniorrocketdad
05/26/2015, 06:17 AM
Do captive bred fish still need to be quarantined?


Every fish should be quarantined but captive bred fish have a much better record of being disease free, but they could still have diseases so if you have. a quarantine system I would use it on any fish you add to the tank

billsreef
05/26/2015, 11:26 AM
Do captive bred fish still need to be quarantined?

Once they leave the producer and hit either a wholesaler or the LFS, they are often placed into the same systems housing wild caught fish. At this point, they cannot be considered parasite free, and therefore should be QT'd just like anything else.

genetao
05/26/2015, 01:09 PM
Always go with captive bred if it's an option. Not only are you reducing over fishing stresses on the species, but a captive bred species will typically be healther, less likely to have any sort of parasites, far more adaptable at eating non-live foods, and typically live a longer life span.

One such example would by buying a wild caught seahourse vs. a captive bred. Wild caught SH usually will carry a bacteria (vibrio) and some other parasites. When caught and/or introduced into one of our tanks, they get really stressed and the infection reveals itself. In addition, the wild caught SH will only take live foods. Which is an expensive undertaking. Lastly, the chances of it living for any decent length of time is low.

However, if you bought a captive bred SH, you're most likely getting a health specimen. It'll eat frozen with gusto, and live quite a few years under the proper care.

A bit of an extreme example, but one of which clearly illustrates the benefits of captive bred.

nuxx
05/26/2015, 07:48 PM
I wish every fish could be tank raised, just not an option with lots of species.

Given the choice, if there is captive raised option of a species, go with it...

BlackTip
05/27/2015, 11:15 AM
Knowing that wild-caught fish have been taken from their wonderful reef home, tormented through the whole ordeal, moved from one tank to another, to be settled in a tiny aquarium, will make me choose captive-bred over wild-caught every time I have the choice.

Dmorty217
05/28/2015, 09:22 AM
Captive bred is great if what you want is captive bred but even then the availability may not be enough so you could easily purchase said fish. Collection of wild caught fish helps sustain the fish populations through responsible practices and also helps fuel the captive breeding attempts of new fish that aren't currently captive bred.

rudylbj
05/28/2015, 05:50 PM
Just don't have the diversity with captive bred. Never gonna see captive bred anthias or fairy wrasses, etc. For clownfish or dottybacks yes I would never buy wild.

Alexraptor
05/29/2015, 07:29 PM
Personally I'm leaning heavily towards pro wild caught when done in an ethical and sustainable manner.
This is due to the fact that the wild caught trade provides a very powerful incentive for coastal people to preserve and care for the reefs, as their livelyhood depends on it.

That said, there are still problem regions where destructive colleciton methods such as cyanude is used, and it has to end.

Tank raised is also an interesting middle ground to seriously consider, where eggs, larvae and juveniles are harvested from the wild and allowed to grow and mature in a captive environment.

amzar123
05/29/2015, 11:16 PM
I always try to buy tank bred when available, however the options are limited, with additional research more species will be mastered

Timfish
05/31/2015, 10:09 AM
There's are very good arguments for sustainably collected wild livestock. For one, as pointed out in this UN report, http://www.unep.org/PDF/From_Ocean_To_Aquarium_report.pdf wild livestock and live rock collected for the aquarium trade has a much much higher profit margin than the same things collected for local consumption. By buying wild we are reducing collecting pressures in many cases.

Another example of where we need to be collecting wild is the situation with yellow tangs in Hawai'i. We know one of the things that screws up the fish population on reefs and leads to their decline is when sharks are over fished and the small herbivore populations get out of balance. Hawai'i conducted a shark control program from the 50's to the 70's that indescrimanatelly killed all sharks. Our yearly population counts for yellow tangs didn't start until after Hawai'i stopped killing sharks so we have no idea what the population should be on a healthy reef but research elsewhere argues it should be lower then it was then. Certainly not at the levels we're seeing now (2013 "young of year" head count was 400% above previous record!!!). What is alarming is the yearly population counts being conducted by researchers with NOAA besides showing the burgeoning yellow and kole tang populations is the decrease in other species of tang, notably the achilles tang. The current conservation steps are only favoring a few species, not the overall ecosystem. Since we have removed the apex predator from the Hawaiian reef systems we have to take steps to maintain healthy populations until the sharks are reestablished and the only economical way is to collect the overabundant species.

Alexraptor
05/31/2015, 07:39 PM
Another prime candidate for wild capture would also be Pterois Lionfish in the Caribbean which do not belong there and are an extremely invasive species.
They could easily supply the demands of the entire ornamental fish trade world wide for Pterois lionfish while at the same time contributing to eradicating their destructive presence on the ecosystem.

Solar Dragon
06/01/2015, 08:40 AM
There's are very good arguments for sustainably collected wild livestock. For one, as pointed out in this UN report, http://www.unep.org/PDF/From_Ocean_To_Aquarium_report.pdf wild livestock and live rock collected for the aquarium trade has a much much higher profit margin than the same things collected for local consumption. By buying wild we are reducing collecting pressures in many cases.

Another example of where we need to be collecting wild is the situation with yellow tangs in Hawai'i. We know one of the things that screws up the fish population on reefs and leads to their decline is when sharks are over fished and the small herbivore populations get out of balance. Hawai'i conducted a shark control program from the 50's to the 70's that indescrimanatelly killed all sharks. Our yearly population counts for yellow tangs didn't start until after Hawai'i stopped killing sharks so we have no idea what the population should be on a healthy reef but research elsewhere argues it should be lower then it was then. Certainly not at the levels we're seeing now (2013 "young of year" head count was 400% above previous record!!!). What is alarming is the yearly population counts being conducted by researchers with NOAA besides showing the burgeoning yellow and kole tang populations is the decrease in other species of tang, notably the achilles tang. The current conservation steps are only favoring a few species, not the overall ecosystem. Since we have removed the apex predator from the Hawaiian reef systems we have to take steps to maintain healthy populations until the sharks are reestablished and the only economical way is to collect the overabundant species.

sounds like the lower 48 treatment of the gator gar almost 100 years back

is tnhis the kole tang your talking about

http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/categories/product/p-74643-kole-tang.jpg



Another prime candidate for wild capture would also be Pterois Lionfish in the Caribbean which do not belong there and are an extremely invasive species.
They could easily supply the demands of the entire ornamental fish trade world wide for Pterois lionfish while at the same time contributing to eradicating their destructive presence on the ecosystem.

That was my thoughts exactly but logic reasoning is never the governments strong suit as lionfish are now banned to keep in florida so i doubt capture and send to wisconsin is an option

i also heard from one of my friends in the trade that depending on prep there good eating and they now are sold in many restaurants in florida all caught from the waters of florida there also doing this in panama as well for them

also i read somewhere they have been discovered in the mediterran as well most likely ""imported"' through the suez canal kinda like the sea lamprey in the great lakes

billsreef
06/01/2015, 11:38 AM
That was my thoughts exactly but logic reasoning is never the governments strong suit as lionfish are now banned to keep in florida so i doubt capture and send to wisconsin is an option

It's not illegal to keep lionfish that have been captured in Florida. It is illegal to import, sell, and keep ones that have come from elsewhere. So no problem with capturing the ones in Florida and sending them elsewhere ;)

Solar Dragon
06/01/2015, 01:34 PM
It's not illegal to keep lionfish that have been captured in Florida. It is illegal to import, sell, and keep ones that have come from elsewhere. So no problem with capturing the ones in Florida and sending them elsewhere ;)

Sweet ever catch any life ones a keep them in an aquarium or do you just kill them at eat them and another question on that front what species are the wild ones?

billsreef
06/01/2015, 07:01 PM
Sweet ever catch any life ones a keep them in an aquarium or do you just kill them at eat them and another question on that front what species are the wild ones?

Both :D Had a pair of adults living under the universities dock for quite some time, until a grad student caught them for genetic analysis...

As for determining what species are the wild ones, so far it's only Volitan and Miles that are known to be invasive in FL.

Solar Dragon
06/01/2015, 08:37 PM
Both :D Had a pair of adults living under the universities dock for quite some time, until a grad student caught them for genetic analysis...

As for determining what species are the wild ones, so far it's only Volitan and Miles that are known to be invasive in FL.

Dang it i was hoping to help florida out this year or next because i was hoping you had some of these CLICK HERE (http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+36+230&pcatid=230)

ChimolaFish
06/02/2015, 11:07 AM
I think its important to buy captive whenever possible. It should be illegal to harvest any coral\fish that can be captive raised in the trade.

Solar Dragon
06/02/2015, 02:47 PM
I think its important to buy captive whenever possible. It should be illegal to harvest any coral\fish that can be captive raised in the trade.

you mean captive breed right and while when i set up my tank i will be trying to do that myself i think we should be real and face the fact that many of the people in the south/west pacific and north/west/east indian oceans are doing this for there very livelihoods which means even if i was illegal they still would be doing it so i think regulation and management is the only course

Alexraptor
06/02/2015, 06:52 PM
you mean captive breed right and while when i set up my tank i will be trying to do that myself i think we should be real and face the fact that many of the people in the south/west pacific and north/west/east indian oceans are doing this for there very livelihoods which means even if i was illegal they still would be doing it so i think regulation and management is the only course

Pretty much this.
By choosing wild caught we are encouraging them to care for the reef and cultivate it. Dead fish for food command a much much lower price than living healthy aquarium specimens and must instead be harvested in much greater quantities.
Should the worst occur they may even turn to "Coral Mining" for their livelihood instead, which is the absolute worst thing that could ever happen to the reefs.

that Fish Guy
06/03/2015, 01:14 AM
When I started keeping fish in the early 60's most freshwater fish where wild caught too. Now only a few still are. Look at how easy freshwater fish are to keep nowadays. If we support captive breeding we can get to that point with both fish and corals.

When the Freshwater Fish were Wild Caught in the 60's were they very hard to keep?

vaporized
06/03/2015, 09:59 AM
I love buying tank bred clowns and tangs. They seem to do much better and come in with less issues. That being said, I received an order of tank bred clowns and one had flukes that wiped them all out over several days in QT.

reefwiser
06/03/2015, 10:23 AM
When the Freshwater Fish were Wild Caught in the 60's were they very hard to keep?

One had to have the correct PH for the fish in the tank. Some of the wild caught fish lived in low PH water and that was an issue. Also getting foods that they would eat was an issue. There was a lot of learning about the needs of the fish back in those days. Same as marine fish today.

that Fish Guy
06/03/2015, 11:58 PM
One had to have the correct PH for the fish in the tank. Some of the wild caught fish lived in low PH water and that was an issue. Also getting foods that they would eat was an issue. There was a lot of learning about the needs of the fish back in those days. Same as marine fish today.

When was Flake Fish Food Invented?

reefwiser
06/04/2015, 06:58 AM
Dr. Ulrich Baensch of tetra created flake food in the 19050's. By the time I was old enough It was getting to the US. Ah the green and red flakes so pretty n the top of the water.:)

that Fish Guy
06/04/2015, 07:08 AM
Dr. Ulrich Baensch of tetra created flake food in the 19050's. By the time I was old enough It was getting to the US. Ah the green and red flakes so pretty n the top of the water.:)

So the Fish would not eat Tetra Flakes?

They all Pretty Much will eat Tetra Flakes now.

What did you Feed Them in the 1960's?

reefwiser
06/04/2015, 08:33 AM
Before tetra flakes people used live foods.

Timfish
06/04/2015, 04:54 PM
So the Fish would not eat Tetra Flakes?

They all Pretty Much will eat Tetra Flakes now.

What did you Feed Them in the 1960's?

Used to be flakes were almost all grain products or byproducts. Now there's much better attention paid to the ingrediants and most if not all (depends if the originating country is using melamine like in catfood) have better nutritional profiles than in the 60's.

that Fish Guy
06/05/2015, 01:16 AM
Used to be flakes were almost all grain products or byproducts. Now there's much better attention paid to the ingrediants and most if not all (depends if the originating country is using melamine like in catfood) have better nutritional profiles than in the 60's.

I see.

Interesting.

pufferish
06/05/2015, 12:51 PM
I read an article of how Shedd Aquarium acquired their original stock when the aquarium opened. How they could just take rare specimens from the wild in another country and bring them back to Chicago like it was no big deal. What the heck? The beloved lungfish, Grandad, was fairly easy to take out of Australia in the 1930s(other than keeping it alive long of course!) but now it's illegal to take lungfish out of Australia! The only reason why Shedd got some friends for Grandad was because the Australian government made an exception. The progression of regulations and laws for removing fish from the wild is revolutionary. I wonder what it will be like decades from now? If the regulations continue to expand? What will that mean for fishkeeping?

that Fish Guy
06/06/2015, 12:46 AM
I read an article of how Shedd Aquarium acquired their original stock when the aquarium opened. How they could just take rare specimens from the wild in another country and bring them back to Chicago like it was no big deal. What the heck? The beloved lungfish, Grandad, was fairly easy to take out of Australia in the 1930s(other than keeping it alive long of course!) but now it's illegal to take lungfish out of Australia! The only reason why Shedd got some friends for Grandad was because the Australian government made an exception. The progression of regulations and laws for removing fish from the wild is revolutionary. I wonder what it will be like decades from now? If the regulations continue to expand? What will that mean for fishkeeping?

Well that Depends on the Fish.

Australia is very strict on what can be exported so there could be issues with Animals from that country.

But a lot of Marine Fish and Coral come from third world countries where they have no money so they could care less about their animals.

All they want is the money.

Solar Dragon
06/06/2015, 08:20 AM
Well that Depends on the Fish.

Australia is very strict on what can be exported so there could be issues with Animals from that country.

But a lot of Marine Fish and Coral come from third world countries where they have no money so they could care less about their animals.

All they want is the money.

hence Cyanide fishing among other things is used to gather reef fish and other reef items as well

Dmorty217
06/06/2015, 08:56 AM
Well that Depends on the Fish.

Australia is very strict on what can be exported so there could be issues with Animals from that country.

But a lot of Marine Fish and Coral come from third world countries where they have no money so they could care less about their animals.

All they want is the money.

This is why I try not to get fish sourced from Indonesia or the Phillipines

that Fish Guy
06/06/2015, 10:47 AM
This is why I try not to get fish sourced from Indonesia or the Phillipines

Are there Fish that are only found in Indonesia and the Phillipines and nowhere else?

If so which ones?

pufferish
06/06/2015, 02:14 PM
What countries of origin are ideal for wild caught?

Solar Dragon
06/06/2015, 03:10 PM
This is why I try not to get fish sourced from Indonesia or the Phillipines

african gathered fish can sometimes be just as bad

I would try that but i'm not sure if 3 of the 6 fish i want csn't be caught anywhere else which are 2 puffer and a lion fish although at this point i may only go with the hawaii harvested fish on my list

Dmorty217
06/06/2015, 04:28 PM
What countries of origin are ideal for wild caught?

Australia and the Red Sea are both great. Hawaii origin fish are also very good. Most African sourced fish are caught responsibly. Mauritius fish are "African origin" and they certainly don't catch Zebra or Gem tangs with cyanide. Most all fish that are caught with cyanide die before they ever make it to the end user, with the exception of Naso tangs

that Fish Guy
06/06/2015, 07:44 PM
Australia and the Red Sea are both great. Hawaii origin fish are also very good. Most African sourced fish are caught responsibly. Mauritius fish are "African origin" and they certainly don't catch Zebra or Gem tangs with cyanide. Most all fish that are caught with cyanide die before they ever make it to the end user, with the exception of Naso tangs

Naso Tangs?

Why do they live and not the others?

Dmorty217
06/07/2015, 10:47 AM
Naso Tangs?

Why do they live and not the others?

They don't live, they just live longer than others

Solar Dragon
06/07/2015, 11:09 AM
Australia and the Red Sea are both great. Hawaii origin fish are also very good. Most African sourced fish are caught responsibly. Mauritius fish are "African origin" and they certainly don't catch Zebra or Gem tangs with cyanide. Most all fish that are caught with cyanide die before they ever make it to the end user, with the exception of Naso tangs

that's provided they come from the red sea and not south of Somalia or so i have heard in fact if i remeber right some sellers will rather that say just africa will tell you red sea or east africa which means south of somalia

Dmorty217
06/07/2015, 07:54 PM
Right well some fish only come from these places so it's hard to say the come from some Place else when they only occur in said place. Ie Red Sea Regal, Semilavartus ect... Same can be said about Zebra and Gem tangs

Solar Dragon
06/08/2015, 03:37 PM
Right well some fish only come from these places so it's hard to say the come from some Place else when they only occur in said place. Ie Red Sea Regal, Semilavartus ect... Same can be said about Zebra and Gem tangs

good point but i was referring to general area fish like fish not just found in red sea but all over the indian ocean including south of somalia

GreshamH
06/09/2015, 04:32 PM
Always go with captive bred if it's an option. Not only are you reducing over fishing stresses on the species, but a captive bred species will typically be healther, less likely to have any sort of parasites, far more adaptable at eating non-live foods, and typically live a longer life span.

One such example would by buying a wild caught seahourse vs. a captive bred. Wild caught SH usually will carry a bacteria (vibrio) and some other parasites. When caught and/or introduced into one of our tanks, they get really stressed and the infection reveals itself. In addition, the wild caught SH will only take live foods. Which is an expensive undertaking. Lastly, the chances of it living for any decent length of time is low.

However, if you bought a captive bred SH, you're most likely getting a health specimen. It'll eat frozen with gusto, and live quite a few years under the proper care.

A bit of an extreme example, but one of which clearly illustrates the benefits of captive bred.

Vibrios (numerous species of the genus Vibrio - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrio ) tend to be omnipresent in aquaria. Its just when they get out of control, they can do real damage.

ichthyogeek
06/18/2015, 08:58 PM
Ok people, let's try not to bash poorly educated people here. Yes, cyanide fishing occurs in the Philippines. However, does that mean that we should blame the people who ONLY KNOW HOW to fish with cyanide? If they were taught to harvest fish with different capture techniques that aren't ultimately fatal to the fish, and paid a higher amount of money for non-cyanide captured fish, that is a very real source that the people can use in their lives. Disclaimer: my parents are from the Philippines, so I feel that their country, and by association, my country, should at least be given a chance.

With regards to the ideas of the original question, I think that both wild caught and captive bred fish have roles in the hobby. Very few beginners should be given most wild caught fish that can easily be captive bred in the hobby (dottybacks, clowns, cardinals, etc.). In some cases, it should be ONLY captive-bred fish that should be sold in the hobby (such as the Banggai Cardinalfish). However, by bringing in WC fish, additional genetic material can be introduced into breeding lines. I have high hopes that the saltwater side of the hobby will eventually copy that of the freshwater side, with CB fish replacing their WC cousins. But I also acknowledge that some fish will never truly be CB, such as yellow tangs, cardinal tetras, and other fish.

that Fish Guy
06/19/2015, 12:15 AM
Ok people, let's try not to bash poorly educated people here. Yes, cyanide fishing occurs in the Philippines. However, does that mean that we should blame the people who ONLY KNOW HOW to fish with cyanide? If they were taught to harvest fish with different capture techniques that aren't ultimately fatal to the fish, and paid a higher amount of money for non-cyanide captured fish, that is a very real source that the people can use in their lives. Disclaimer: my parents are from the Philippines, so I feel that their country, and by association, my country, should at least be given a chance.

With regards to the ideas of the original question, I think that both wild caught and captive bred fish have roles in the hobby. Very few beginners should be given most wild caught fish that can easily be captive bred in the hobby (dottybacks, clowns, cardinals, etc.). In some cases, it should be ONLY captive-bred fish that should be sold in the hobby (such as the Banggai Cardinalfish). However, by bringing in WC fish, additional genetic material can be introduced into breeding lines. I have high hopes that the saltwater side of the hobby will eventually copy that of the freshwater side, with CB fish replacing their WC cousins. But I also acknowledge that some fish will never truly be CB, such as yellow tangs, cardinal tetras, and other fish.

I heard that Cardinal Tetras can be Captive Bred

Why do you say that Yellow Tangs will Never be Captive Bred?

They Bred some Blue Hippo Tangs in Japan.

ichthyogeek
06/19/2015, 09:22 AM
I heard that Cardinal Tetras can be Captive Bred

Why do you say that Yellow Tangs will Never be Captive Bred?

They Bred some Blue Hippo Tangs in Japan.

I said that yellow tangs will never be TRULY captive bred. By the word truly, I mean that it will be exceedingly difficult to breed them in captive settings, and almost impossible in hobbyist tanks. The fish have massive ranges, have tiny larvae (that so far we haven't been able to raise to post-meta), take a long time to go from egg to juvenile, and are aggressive to each other within 'typical' aquarium specifics (i.e. less than 180 or so gallons). All are factors in determining the WC vs CB potential for a fish. All yellow tangs in the hobby are currently wild caught, and they have shown to be wonderful aquarium residents when given the right conditions (swimming space, food, etc.). It would be much easier (and cheaper) to harvest yellow tangs. As long as they are sustainably harvested with correct capture techniques, I see no reason to stop.

reefwiser
06/19/2015, 11:37 AM
http://www.reef2rainforest.com/2014/03/25/yellow-tang-breeding-so-close-yet-so-far/
http://risingtideconservation.blogspot.com/

This program is a continuing effort Bu Rising Tide to Breed yellow tangs.