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drater
05/25/2015, 09:22 PM
The wife and I work in high-stress jobs and combined work around 140hrs/week. Late last year I thought it would be nice to introduce some peace and serenity into our lives with a lovely saltwater aquarium.

Because we're so busy, we contracted our local aquarium shop to setup and look after the tank from day one. Over the past three months, there has been zero success introducing new fish -- every one dies in ~3 days. The wife and I have even stopped naming them.

We've dropped thousands into a 72 gallon tank with all the trimmings, and while we have a few fish that are still swimming, have probably lost about a grand in livestock (I stopped keeping the receipts -- it's too depressing).

While we do the requisite things like feeding the fish, monitoring parameters weekly (always ideal except for early problems with kH), topping off, we've (purposely) stayed largely ignorant of this "hobby" because neither of us were necessarily interested in a hobby.

At this point, the only thing we haven't tried is to chiffonade hundred dollar bills, sauté them in garlic and ginger, and individually feed each new fish with chop-sticks after offering them a hot towel.

We figured we could maintain a successful aquarium by contracting our local shop. I'm beginning to believe this was misguided and that when one owns a saltwater aquarium, ignorance is not bliss.

I've started to rectify that by trying to educate myself about why our tank refuses to accept new fish. I'm about 100% certain it's Uronema marinum. Based on my research, the tank is a time bomb, eventually the few fish we do have are going to die, and the only solution is to start over.

If that's the case, I'm going to own this "hobby" and stop contracting our local aquarium shop and start doing everything myself.

So after the above rant, here are the questions...

Is there a book that an ignorant (and busy!) person can follow to at least offer a high probability of success when starting an aquarium? Surely there's an authoritative source out there?

I'm also curious about what's involved in making RO and saltwater. Any pointers about this would be helpful -- I haven't found much information here on reefcentral about how to do it, what equipment is involved, etc. Again, any recommended books?

Thanks for reading!

-drater

Heatherabel3
05/25/2015, 09:37 PM
I don't know about books but there is a sticky in this forum about getting started that has a ton of good stuff in it. It takes some researching and learning to get the basics but, for me anyway, I have learned the most from doing. Obviously there is equipment you need to have right off; skimmer, RO/DI unit (or at least a reputable LFS to get it from), heater,etc. If your really wanting to do it yourself then start with the aboce mentioned sticky thread and ask, ask, ask any questions you have. The people here are awesome.

christopher7
05/25/2015, 09:37 PM
Sorry about all the trouble you've had. I am new to saltwater, myself, but I have come across a lot of information in he research I have done. One book that I would recommend to get bare bones fundamentals is the Complete Idiot's Guide to Saltwater Aquariums. I have unfortunately misplaced my copy, but I learned a lot from it. This forum is also a wealth of information if you take the time to do your reading.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1031074

This bread has been particularly helpful as I have actually started the set up process. As for RO and RO/DI systems, there are a number of ways to go about it. I purchased a 6 stage LiquaGen 75 GPD RO/DI filter system that attaches to a water hose (or a kitchen sink with a water hose adapter) on Amazon for about $75. The whole idea behind using RO/DI water to mix your seawater is to start with the cleanest water possible, as opposed to starting with tap that has all kinds of unknown trace contaminants that may or may not affect the health of your aquarium.

I've also found that asking questions on the forum is a good way to get answers if you can't find them yourself. People on this forum are generally welcoming and have all kinds of different experience levels and expertise.

drater
05/25/2015, 09:55 PM
One book that I would recommend to get bare bones fundamentals is the Complete Idiot's Guide to Saltwater Aquariums.

I literally just bought this on Amazon, used, for, and I'm not making this up, forty one cents. That's $0.41. It'll take the prize as the least-expensive thing we've purchased for our aquarium.

That said, thanks.

I've spent 16hrs over the past two days reading the Internet (great way to spend Memorial Day), and specifically reefcentral and it's clear this is a nice, experienced, and helpful community.

I'm still trying to decide if I should take over complete control of our tank or continue to contract it out and I think part of that decision will be if my Uronema Marinum "diagnosis" is correct -- and that's a thing we'll have to wait out.

Oh, before I forget, where did you purchase your "LiquiGen" system?

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:16 PM
Okay so what you need to do is get some experience this hobby is not difficult as long as you do your research and stay on top of the required mataniance but for your tank to have these issues and you are paying someone to care for it then apparently the people you are paying is cheating you!!!!

Making saltwater is as easy as buying an rodi water purifier putting the purified water in a contaner and adding aquarium salt to it as needed to make it the proper salinity as your tank is

First off for this hobby learn what the nitrate cycle is and understand it then understand how to get ride of nitrates there are just a few ways to do so water changes bio pellet reactors and also a refugium with algae in it after you get that down branch out to phosphates and calcium

It is very learnable you can do it and spend tops 2 hours or less a week after you get everything set up properly

ryeguyy84
05/25/2015, 10:17 PM
When you test, what are you testing?

What makes you think it's uronema marinum?

How long ago did they setup the tank before adding fish?

To me it just seems like the tank is cycling.

ryeguyy84
05/25/2015, 10:19 PM
Also when you say topoff are you actually adding RODI water to the tank?

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:19 PM
You said you do the testing on your tank what are the ammonia nitrite and nitrate lvls???
Also do you have coral and what equipment do you have in the setup like protein skimmer a sump phosphate reactor ????

Like rye guy asked are you topping of with rodi water or tap water out of your sink????
If your topping off with tap water that is your problem!!!! Because you are paying chlorine in your tank and that kills fish

drater
05/25/2015, 10:23 PM
I don't know about books but there is a sticky in this forum about getting started that has a ton of good stuff in it. It takes some researching and learning to get the basics but, for me anyway, I have learned the most from doing. Obviously there is equipment you need to have right off; skimmer, RO/DI unit (or at least a reputable LFS to get it from), heater,etc. If your really wanting to do it yourself then start with the aboce mentioned sticky thread and ask, ask, ask any questions you have. The people here are awesome.

Thanks for the response!

We're roughly 8 months in and have all the equipment, up to and including a UV sterilizer.

The dilemma is simply that we've been paying a company to take care of the tank and I'm considering personally taking over as a hobby (and that regardless, I'm fearful we're on the verge of an epic fail).

So I'm just looking for "authoritative" steps on how to begin. So that in the future I can say, "I did XYZ and this is my result".

By no means am I suggesting "doing" is bad, but I want to avoid common mistakes and most definitely avoid trial-and-error.

-drater

drater
05/25/2015, 10:29 PM
... to have these issues and you are paying someone to care for it then apparently the people you are paying is cheating you!!!!


To be fair, I never said that, and I don't believe that either.

That said, I do have an ego and kinda believe (given knowledge) I could probably do better myself. ;)


First off for this hobby learn what the nitrate cycle is and understand it then understand how to get ride of nitrates there are just a few ways to do so water changes bio pellet reactors and also a refugium with algae in it after you get that down branch out to phosphates and calcium


Since the very early days of our tank, the parameters have been solid and stable. I'm fearful we're fighting an insidious parasite.

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:32 PM
Yes they are stable but does that mean your nitrates are 0 or are they like 80ppm??

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:33 PM
To many nitrates can kill a fish and if you have high nitrates most likely you have lots of bacteria

Also most parasites you can physically see on the fish like white spots or little bugs

I wasn't trying to be rude but I just meant that if your paying a company care for your tank and your fish are dieing after 3 days they are doing something wrong

And more info on your setup or maybe pictures would help a lot

drater
05/25/2015, 10:37 PM
You said you do the testing on your tank what are the ammonia nitrite and nitrate lvls???
Also do you have coral and what equipment do you have in the setup like protein skimmer a sump phosphate reactor ????

Like rye guy asked are you topping of with rodi water or tap water out of your sink????
If your topping off with tap water that is your problem!!!! Because you are paying chlorine in your tank and that kills fish

These are great questions. I'm happy to answer, but I don't believe these are necessarily our problems... :)

Yes, we do some testing ourselves. Ammonia, Nitrate, and Nitrite are all at zero-levels, when we test.

The equipment boils down to a 72g tank, 25g sump tank, heater, pump, protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, 50lbs of live sand, 45+lbs of live rock.

We have one small coral that we bought on a whim. I can't tell you its genus, but it kinda looks like grass. We have no interest in coral and probably won't buy any more, ever. It's healthy and growing moderately, I suppose.

And of course we're using RO water to top off the tank. :) I'm actually LOLing at the question not because it's silly, but because of the lecture our contractor gave me about this very subject. We buy the RO from them, and that's all that goes in.

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:39 PM
Also if you want to learn and learn fast and easy go to YouTube and type in BRS TV how to start and aquarium they have 10 minute to 20 minute video a 11 episode Series that is amazing at teaching you what you need to look for and do

christopher7
05/25/2015, 10:43 PM
Oh, before I forget, where did you purchase your "LiquiGen" system?

-drater

I bought it on Amazon. There are all sorts of RO/DI systems out there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that more stages of filtration are preferable. Mine is 7. There are RO only systems, there are 3 stage systems, there are 8 stage systems, it really is all up to preference.

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:43 PM
Do you get your test water from your sump or out of main tank ? Also your nitrates should be showing something to have 0 all the time is crazy the detection of nitrates is the indicated that you have good bacteria and that it's doing its job

drater
05/25/2015, 10:45 PM
When you test, what are you testing?

What makes you think it's uronema marinum?

How long ago did they setup the tank before adding fish?

To me it just seems like the tank is cycling.

If you google "Uronema marinum" and look at the pictures, that's exactly what (practically) all recent new additions look like when they die.

The tank was setup 8 months ago and there was a 2 week cycle period before we started adding fish.

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:45 PM
Also if you do think you have a parasite problem you can dose for it without hurting the fish there are a few ways but you will need to do some research for that

Is your water clear or kinda foggy like cloudy?

drater
05/25/2015, 10:50 PM
Do you get your test water from your sump or out of main tank ? Also your nitrates should be showing something to have 0 all the time is crazy the detection of nitrates is the indicated that you have good bacteria and that it's doing its job

Interesting question. From the main tank, not the sump.

Obviously I could be completely wrong, but I thought zero ammonia, nitrates, and nitrites is the goal?

I can't recall any test where any of these have been above zero (after the initial cycle was complete) -- granted, we don't test daily, nor do we always test at consistent times (things I've been learning are important).

I appreciate what it feels like y'all are trying to do -- help me save my tank. If that's possible, great!

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:52 PM
Are the fish in your tank healthy ?? Or are they slowly dieing ? Is it only new fish dieing??

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:55 PM
Yes the goal is ammonia 0 nitrite 0 they are zero because your benifitial bacteria is doing their job but if you are not having nitrates come up ever that's weird because only way to get ride of them is a lot of water changes a couple other ways but you do not have that equipment in your setup do you have a lot of algae in your tank??

drater
05/25/2015, 10:56 PM
Are the fish in your tank healthy ?? Or are they slowly dieing ? Is it only new fish dieing??

The existing fish appear healthy and have been in the tank for 4-6mos (one since the beginning). And by "existing fish" I mean only four.

It's only new fish that die off at a 100% success rate.

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:57 PM
Are you getting all of these fish from the same place?? How are you introducing the fish to your tank??

drater
05/25/2015, 10:58 PM
Yes the goal is ammonia 0 nitrite 0 they are zero because your benifitial bacteria is doing their job but if you are not having nitrates come up ever that's weird because only way to get ride of them is a lot of water changes a couple other ways but you do not have that equipment in your setup do you have a lot of algae in your tank??

We have enough algae to keep our snails and crabs happy. I think maybe there's 8 of them combined. The tank walls are NOT overgrown by any means.

I think they've done 4 water changes in 8 months, and they've all been partial changes, but I cannot tell you how many gallons relative to the 72 gallon tank.

-drater

Young347
05/25/2015, 10:59 PM
If there was parasites killing your fish all ur fish would be dead and the only way to get the parasites out is starve them out or dose your tank and pray lol so I don't think it's a parasite that's just me

Young347
05/25/2015, 11:00 PM
With your set up you should be doing water changes atleast once a month I think you need to get a new test kit and then check all of your lvls I have heared of test kits going bad false reading

Young347
05/25/2015, 11:08 PM
Take some pictures of your setup and also new test kit. For you to always read 0 nitrates and have only 4 or so water changes in 8 months is suspicious

As for you doing this by yourself and learning I say yes go for it it is a great hobby and after you learn and understand and put effort into your tank and you see it thrive you will be happier then you know it is very theripudic and takes our mind of other stuff to relax you can learn and do it no problem

drater
05/25/2015, 11:12 PM
If there was parasites killing your fish all ur fish would be dead and the only way to get the parasites out is starve them out or dose your tank and pray lol so I don't think it's a parasite that's just me

Well, and that's my point. I've done enough research to believe our tank has a parasite. The fact that new fish are more susceptible isn't surprising and the fact that existing fish are currently okay isn't surprising either. I think it's just a matter of time.

-drater

drater
05/25/2015, 11:13 PM
... you will be happier then you know it is very theripudic and takes our mind of other stuff...

Which was the goal from the beginning!

Thanks so much for your time an conversation!

-drater

drater
05/25/2015, 11:15 PM
I bought it on Amazon. There are all sorts of RO/DI systems out there. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that more stages of filtration are preferable. Mine is 7. There are RO only systems, there are 3 stage systems, there are 8 stage systems, it really is all up to preference.

Cool. Thanks!

One of the things I'm trying to determine is if I can actually do everything myself. I have the gumption, just not sure I have the time. So I definitely appreciate the information. Any more will be greatly appreciated.

-drater

christopher7
05/25/2015, 11:23 PM
[QUOTE=drater;23767527

I think they've done 4 water changes in 8 months, and they've all been partial changes, but I cannot tell you how many gallons relative to the 72 gallon tank.

-drater[/QUOTE]

4 water changes in 8 months?! Yikes!

Coelli
05/25/2015, 11:34 PM
It's not unheard of to have 0 nitrates. I run a mixed reef and on the API test, it's always 0. Salifert will show about 1.

OP, there can be a steep learning curve with a reef, but a fish-only system should be fairly simple. :) Just keep reading!

The coral you describe sounds like green star polyps. They won't need any special care BUT, they can be pretty invasive so you may need to trim it now and then. Like grass, as you said!

drater
05/25/2015, 11:41 PM
4 water changes in 8 months?! Yikes!

Heh. So this response is interesting to me.

You clearly think that 8:4 is not enough, and I've thought it's completely normal.

This is why I'm looking for educational material. :)

-drater

ps, yes I can reduce that to 2:1

drater
05/25/2015, 11:45 PM
...
The coral you describe sounds like green star polyps. They won't need any special care BUT, they can be pretty invasive so you may need to trim it now and then. Like grass, as you said!

And we'd be just as happy to remove it from the tank entirely.

To me, and I realize this is probably extremely insensitive, but corals seem like alien creatures -- they're this weird cross between zombie and alive.

-drater

genetao
05/25/2015, 11:56 PM
If you highly suspect that your tank is infected, why not remove the remaining 4 fish and put them into a separate quarantine tank, and then triple dose your 72 gallon tank with antibiotics? You could also treat your 4 fish the normal strenth dosage.
But for your 72 gallon, I'd do triple strength for triple the duration. I mean eradicate any last remnants of any bacteria. After your tank is nuked, do a massive water change to reset the tank. That way, you've got the best chance at eradicating this bacteria once an for all.
And this regiment should cost you way less than the thousands of dollars already spent.

ThRoewer
05/26/2015, 02:02 AM
...
I'm still trying to decide if I should take over complete control of our tank or continue to contract it out and I think part of that decision will be if my Uronema Marinum "diagnosis" is correct -- and that's a thing we'll have to wait out.
...

In my opinion the only way to do a reef tank is by yourself. If you hire someone to do it for you, you better make sure they are good and know what they are doing.

I would never let someone else fumble on my tanks (every time I had to do to absence, I lost something).
The best way - and the most satisfying - is to set up and run your tank yourself. Only that way you will learn to read all the signs and figure out what do.

...We're roughly 8 months in and have all the equipment, up to and including a UV sterilizer.

The dilemma is simply that we've been paying a company to take care of the tank and I'm considering personally taking over as a hobby (and that regardless, I'm fearful we're on the verge of an epic fail).

So I'm just looking for "authoritative" steps on how to begin. So that in the future I can say, "I did XYZ and this is my result"....

The UV sterilizer is only good to fight bacteria and algae blooms - otherwise it's a pretty useless device, even more so if you don't replace the UV bulb at least every 6 months.

I would seriously ask my money back from them as they seem to be doing a shoddy job.

...
We have one small coral that we bought on a whim. I can't tell you its genus, but it kinda looks like grass. We have no interest in coral and probably won't buy any more, ever. It's healthy and growing moderately, I suppose.

And of course we're using RO water to top off the tank. :) I'm actually LOLing at the question not because it's silly, but because of the lecture our contractor gave me about this very subject. We buy the RO from them, and that's all that goes in.

What kind of live rock did you get? The real deal from the reef or the man made fake stuff?

RO is something you should have already in your kitchen (I wouldn't drink what comes out of the tap here in the US). RO/DI is better but so far I can't see the need to upgrade myself.

BTW, if you stay with saltwater you sooner or later will get drawn to corals, so you may as well bite the bullet and do it right from the start. Even if you just want to get coralline algae to grow you need pretty much the coral gear (at a minimum a dosing pump)

If you google "Uronema marinum" and look at the pictures, that's exactly what (practically) all recent new additions look like when they die.

The tank was setup 8 months ago and there was a 2 week cycle period before we started adding fish....

If you know what you are doing, you can do that - I actually started adding fish after 3 weeks, among them a pair of mandarin fish no less, and they are still happily alive.
Though for a beginner or a service tank this is almost criminal. 2 to 3 month of cycling should be the minimum.

As for Uronema - if it's really that what you have, it's in your system for good and only a bottle of bleach will rid you of it.
But on the other hand Uronema, as a opportunistic parasite, is not as vicious as obligate parasite like Amyloodinium, Brooklynella or Cryptocaryon. Most of the time it just munches happily away on bacteria and doesn't bother (healthy) fish. Only if a fish is already weakened and usually injured Uronema takes the opportunity and "jumps" on the fish.

...You clearly think that 8:4 is not enough, and I've thought it's completely normal....

4 water changes in 8 months is normally not enough.
At the moment I do 25% a week! Sometimes, when treating anemones it goes up to 25-50% a day. Now, this is extreme.
A good idea is to do 5 to 10% a week.

I could recommend a few good books, but while they cover all the basics they are all not on the beginner level.


A few more questions:

What are the fish you have (the survivors)?

What fish did you add that died, and how quickly did they die?

Did you pick the fish or did the store suggested them? Who selected the individuals you actually got, you yourself or the store?

Also, it would be helpful to see a picture of the tank to get a better idea what your problems may be.

CuzzA
05/26/2015, 03:34 AM
Drater, I wouldn't do anything until you get an absolute positive ID on what possible parasite/disease is in your tank. Being that this is pretty much a fish only tank will allow for in tank treatments. I would first seek help from Snorvich and others in the fish disease forum.

Sn8kbyt
05/26/2015, 04:41 AM
Funny you say that the guy servicing your tank preached about not using tap water and only the RO water you "buy" from him. Ask him about quarantine of fish you are also most likely buying from him and being sent to there demise.

Sounds to me and pardon to be frank a one sided relationship to your money.

toothybugs
05/26/2015, 08:25 AM
Where are you located D?

It wouldn't surprise me if one of us were able to help you out locally, either from this post here or a post put in your local subforum. I don't think I need to elaborate on the benefits of parties interested in helping you with no interest in your money.

Shawn O
05/26/2015, 09:51 AM
Please list all livestock in your tank, then list all fish you've added, that have died.
How are you introducing your new fish, acclimation or float and pour?

Martini5788
05/26/2015, 10:13 AM
Yeah since it is fish only, and you are worried about uronema, I personally would think about treating the main tank with chloroquine
Phosphate. Do some research on it. As far as I know, it is effective against uronema and if you remove the possible green star polyps and snails, and you can use it in the main tank and kill off any uronema left in the tank. As well as other parasites.

Sk8r
05/26/2015, 10:31 AM
Same experience...tried to have a guy set up because the hobby had changed so. OMG, the mess. I learned fast.

My strong suspicion is somebody operating too fast, too much---make it look good, haul out the dead ones, replace them at next service and the client will be happy---don't get me started.

Some photos of your set up will help us help you. We range, in this particular section, from those with decades of experience to those with days of experience.

The SETTING UP sticky above, is a no-nonsense book of how-to. It's large, it covers a multitude of topics, and it's free.

A 72 gallon tank. How much and what kind of rock? How much and what kind of sand. Was the rock 'live'? How long and how did it cycle before fish went in? Were the fish all quarantined? What are your lights, do you have corals, and what are you testing?

A 72 gallon should be able to keep most sorts of fish, short of fullsized angels, and tangs. You can have gobies, blennies, a few peaceable damsels, [corals depending on your lights], wrasses, assessors, basslets, dwarf and pygmy angels, and other species less community-safe. Not safe are the community of Finding Nemo: those are all too large. Except the clown, which gets 4-5" in size. But a 72 should be a good tank for a lot of species, and should be nearly bulletproof.
Give us brands, where you can on:
lights
skimmer
pumps
controller
any other equipment.
You have a sump, right?

javdog2001
05/26/2015, 10:34 AM
If you have time I would suggest you do it yourself, it's not all easy but it's worth it. I took over mine about 1 1/2 yrs ago, got an RO-DI unit and started mixing my own saltwater. Top offs are now automatic, and my water changes are very easy. I have a great clean up crew if I can say so myself...my tank is beautiful to me, and I am finally getting out of it what i had envisioned. Also, I feel better about it because I did it myself.

Sk8r
05/26/2015, 10:48 AM
I can leave my tank for a month on hardware-store timers and a few inexpensive automations and come back to a tank with everything alive and nothing needing much service. Tank care need not be time-consuming---a lot less than waiting for the service to keep its appointment...

Xxero
05/26/2015, 12:36 PM
I only have a 40 gallon tank and I do a minimum 20% water change every two weeks. I observe the appreciation in my livestock from doing so.

A top-of-the-line, well functioning protein skimmer is also one of your best friends.

If you truly think that you have a parasite/disease in your system, I also believe that you should set-up a quarantine tank for your current critters immediately! Since you're kind of starting from the beginning, why not just start from the beginning? ;)

uncleL
05/26/2015, 12:54 PM
Did you say 4 water changes in 8 months!? 10% a week or 40% monthly is my schedule. I would get my own RO/DI it will save you in the long run. I have the 5 stage/plus from BRS

Sk8r
05/26/2015, 01:05 PM
I'm not real keen on UV sterilizers as essential equipment. Do you have a sump and skimmer?

ThRoewer
05/26/2015, 02:30 PM
Did you say 4 water changes in 8 months!? 10% a week or 40% monthly is my schedule. I would get my own RO/DI it will save you in the long run. I have the 5 stage/plus from BRS

For a FOWLR tank in most cases a good household RO drinking water system is fully sufficient and has the added benefit of also providing yourself with clean drinking and cooking water.
If they not already have one in their kitchen, my advise would be to get one. There are even under sink drinking water RO/DI systems available: iSpring RCC7 - ... 75GPD 5-Stage Reverse Osmosis Water Filter System (http://www.amazon.com/iSpring-RCC7-Upgraded-Legendary-Upgrades/dp/B003XELTTG/ref=sr_1_3?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1432671697&sr=1-3&keywords=RO%2FDI+system)
Unless you have a lot of tanks and go through lots of water a dedicated aquarium RO/DI system is a waste of space and money.

I'm not real keen on UV sterilizers as essential equipment. Do you have a sump and skimmer?

They have both. it's mentioned above.
UV is a waste of money in most cases.

tidus10
05/26/2015, 02:49 PM
Wow i know i lost some details in the past few posts because i skimmed through them but I got a lot from the first few posts.

I know youre a busy man and it sounds like you have good intentions but if I may i would like to give my sincere advice.

If you would truly like to keep a part of the ocean its a labor of love and it just simply sounds like your local fish store does not have the expertise, or possibly time to keep the caliber of tank you want to keep, but they can certainly spend your money that way.

To keep the tank, do it yourself and teach your S.O. to do little things too, for me and my fiancee its been a great learning thing. In the end its just another small responsibility.

I would highly recommend learning how to do a water change and do about 10% weekly, with a decent salt and measure it using a refractometer. Learn to do this and have your local fish place that you have right now doing bigger changes once every 2 months or so when they blow off the rocks and do maybe a 15% water change.. then after your comfortable and youve done more research kick them out and do it all yourself... A lot of people get nervous about this hobby because they hear so much bad, but once you learn it, and get the right equipment to help you, its pretty dang easy if i say so myself...

Best of luck, enjoy getting your hands wet :) (Just make sure to wash them with clean water, no soap)

drater
05/26/2015, 08:32 PM
The UV sterilizer is only good to fight bacteria and algae blooms - otherwise it's a pretty useless device, even more so if you don't replace the UV bulb at least every 6 months.

I would seriously ask my money back from them as they seem to be doing a shoddy job.


The UV sterilizer was added because trying to figure out the cause for so much death has been difficult. Obviously it's not magic, but it does kill bacteria, and early on, our theory was a bacterial infection.

For the record, I don't believe the service company has been doing a "shoddy job" (or otherwise just taking my money as others have suggested). I do think, however, that whatever is causing our problem (looking more like Uronema is the actual answer) has been tough to figure out, for the service company and for me.

If the whole ecosystem fails and we need to start over, I'm considering doing it myself. At least if it fails again, I'll be the one to blame. The pragmatist in me thinks that if a large part of this "hobby" is a guessing game (when things go wrong), I'm just as qualified as the next guy and I'm cheaper too.


4 water changes in 8 months is normally not enough.
At the moment I do 25% a week! Sometimes, when treating anemones it goes up to 25-50% a day. Now, this is extreme.
A good idea is to do 5 to 10% a week.


We have maybe 3-5% evaporation per week, and this gets replaced with RO water every three or so days. Does this not count as a small water change? Or is a water change with saltwater?

Also, if the water parameters are consistent and within norms, what's the reason to do a water change? Wouldn't that just introduce the possibility of instability?


I could recommend a few good books, but while they cover all the basics they are all not on the beginner level.


Please do. I won't be a beginner forever.

-d

drater
05/26/2015, 08:34 PM
...

jdl242
05/26/2015, 09:15 PM
Fortunately there are several ways to treat this disease. One way is to bath your fish in a freshwater tank for 2-3 minutes (until the fish show signs of stress but no more than 3 min). A variety of this treatment is to place the fish in a hospital tank with low salinity (1.011) for 21 days. This treatment should not be used with sensitive species. Another method is to use chemical treatments such as Methylene blue, Copper Sulfate or Malachite green. Always follow instructions provided with the product you purchased if you choose to use a chemical treatment. There are also other medications such as the antibiotic Nitrofurazone that will help treat Uronema marinum.

Taken from linked article.
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/disease/uronemamarinum.php

drater
05/26/2015, 09:18 PM
Yeah since it is fish only, and you are worried about uronema, I personally would think about treating the main tank with chloroquine
Phosphate. Do some research on it. As far as I know, it is effective against uronema and if you remove the possible green star polyps and snails, and you can use it in the main tank and kill off any uronema left in the tank. As well as other parasites.

Chloroquine Phosphate -- the malaria dug.

I actually read the Jay Hemdal article about this on advancedaquarist.com on Sunday. I've also read the first few pages of this: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2136214

It sounds largely anecdotal and difficult to purchase. As a malaria drug, I suspect it requires a prescription.

But, like you said, I can (and probably should) just treat the whole display tank. As far as the green polyps and snails go, if I remove them I can't do anything with them -- they're potentially hosts as well. I wouldn't want to give them to anyone, nor would I want to sell them back to the store.

So might as well just leave them in the tank. If they survive the treatment, great.

-d

skeeter_ca
05/26/2015, 09:18 PM
Topping off your system is not a water change. A water change is when you remove a portion of dirty old tank water and add the same amount back in fresh new saltwater.

I would suspect your test kit is wrong. Take a sample of water to your local fish store you deal with and ask him to test for nitrates. They usually all do them for free. Ask him for the specific number the test reveals. Then check back with us with that number. I believe it will be high at the very least.

CuzzA
05/26/2015, 09:25 PM
We have maybe 3-5% evaporation per week, and this gets replaced with RO water every three or so days. Does this not count as a small water change? Or is a water change with saltwater?

Also, if the water parameters are consistent and within norms, what's the reason to do a water change? Wouldn't that just introduce the possibility of instability?

-d

No. The only thing evaporating is h2o. That's it. Anything else remains in the tank. The balling method still relies on weekly water changes. There is so much more to seawater than what we test for. Water changes are important. They remove disolved organic compounds among other things. Marine life is sensitive. Some people can get away with fewer to no water changes but it's rare. Most will experience trouble. The fact that you believe you have uronema and are not performing water changes leads me to believe the fish being introduced were stressed and got even more stressed when they entered your tank, opening the doors for the parasite to begin attacking them. Unlike humans, healthy fish never get sick. The original fish in your tank are probably very healthy and have adapted to captive life and therefore fight off any parasite or disease.

If you do in fact have uronema in your system, I think the only logical approach is a complete reset unfortunately. Bleach the rocks, sand equipment and start over.

I too doubt the service company was trying to screw you. Even the best quarantine practices get the best of the seasoned hobbyist sometimes. It's just the nature of the hobby.

Here's some good reading for you. Go through the articles. Ask questions if you don't understand something, most members on here want to help.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/articles/articles-by-topic

skeeter_ca
05/26/2015, 09:25 PM
I would suggest taking this in steps. First get an RO/DI machine from a reputable source, like BRS, Marine Depot, etc.... Start using that for top off water. Then get some salt mix. Any brand will do. Instant Ocean is probably the most popular brand but any would actually do fine. Get some a 20 gallon Rubbermaid barrel with wheels on the bottom, a heater and refractor meter. Mix up your own salt water and start doing small water changes every week.

These actions will start getting you in touch with your tank so you can start seeing the effects they make.

Slowly add more things till you are taking care of the tank all by yourself and you will not need the maintenance service.

Martini5788
05/26/2015, 09:39 PM
...


Ick shield powder from new life spectrum is readily available from Amazon. It contains chloroquine phosphate and doesn't require a rx

drater
05/26/2015, 10:20 PM
No. The only thing evaporating is h2o. That's it. Anything else remains in the tank. The balling method still relies on weekly water changes. There is so much more to seawater than what we test for. Water changes are important. They remove disolved organic compounds among other things. Marine life is sensitive.

Thanks, this makes complete sense.

The fact that you believe you have uronema and are not performing water changes leads me to believe the fish being introduced were stressed and got even more stressed when they entered your tank, opening the doors for the parasite to begin attacking them. Unlike humans, healthy fish never get sick. The original fish in your tank are probably very healthy and have adapted to captive life and therefore fight off any parasite or disease.

The wife and I were discussing this exact thing tonight. Trying to decide if we were take over doing this ourselves, should we also have a QT tank and generally debating (what we understand to be) the pros and cons.


If you do in fact have uronema in your system, I think the only logical approach is a complete reset unfortunately. Bleach the rocks, sand equipment and start over.


But what do we do with the fish that are seemingly healthy? Try some kind of chemical treatment like chloroquine, in the display tank?

The thing I'm struggling with is that there's absolutely zero guarantee that any medication will actually work.

If we transfer to, and medicate in a quarantine system while we rebuild the display tank from scratch, then put the fish back in the display tank, we might re-infected it.


Here's some good reading for you. Go through the articles. Ask questions if you don't understand something, most members on here want to help.

http://www.reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/articles/articles-by-topic

Will do, thanks!

-d

ThRoewer
05/26/2015, 10:31 PM
Oh they did a sloppy job alright, otherwise that bug would never have made it into your tank in the first place. The key is quarantine to make sure the fish entering your tank are healthy.
My advice would be to pick up a cheap 10 or 20 gallon tank at Petsmart, Petco as quarantine tank (size depends on the fish you plan to add).
Further you need a hang on back or power head filter and a heater, ideally also a little skimmer and light (clip on light with normal LED Daylight bulb will do fine).

Uronema is normally a rather rare disease, unless you have Chromis.

Chloroquine Phosphate (Ick-Shield Powder) may be your best bet to fix your disease issue short of starting over from scratch.
There have been tests done that show that CP actually kills Uronema. The questionable part is whether it can cure a Uronema infection on a living fish.
Since your current fish seem to be healthy this little detail doesn't really matter.
The added benefit is that CP also kills Amyloodinium and possibly also Cryptocaryon, Brooklynella and Trichodina.

Evaporation should be replaced daily - I have it automated with my APEX and controlled by conductivity. If you have the money invest into a auto top off system - your fish will thank you for that - inverts even more.

RO water refill does not count as water change as you don't remove anything: H2O out - H2O back in. It won't remove excess nutrients (NO3 or PO4), toxins or replenish consumed salts (Ca, Mg, ...)

As I stated before, if you get an RO system, get one you can also use for yourself (drinking and cooking). Your tank isn't big enough to justify a dedicated RO/DI system just for your fish tank. If you already have such a system in your kitchen this water will be just fine for refilling your fish tank. It's what I currently do and I have corals.

This might be a good first book
Marine Aquarium Handbook - Beginner to Breeder (http://www.amazon.com/Marine-Aquarium-Handbook-Martin-Moe/dp/0982026218/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=19NVYWHKRYKP3PVYEMTN) by Martin A. Moe Jr

For general topics I like this series by Svein A. Fossa and Alf Jacob Nilsen:
The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, Volume 1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3928819291/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, Volume 2 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3928819232/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, Volume 3 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3928819283/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
The Modern Coral Reef Aquarium, Volume 4 (http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Coral-Reef-Aquarium-Volume/dp/3928819224/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=1Q6B93JVJ8GK2DPRMTQ2)

Disease identification & control:
Diseases in Marine Aquarium Fish (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/3921684889/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o09_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) by Gerald Bassleer
Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0813806976/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) by Edward J. Noga

Most of my other books are more on special topics like certain fish families or breeding:
The Anemonefishes of the World: Species, Care, and Breeding (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006E2XA0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) by Gerald R. Allen
Anemone Fishes & Their Host Sea Anemones (http://www.amazon.com/Anemone-Fishes-Their-Host-Anemones/dp/1564651185/) by Daphne G. Fautin and Gerald R. Allen
The Complete Illustrated Breeder's Guide to Marine Aquarium Fishes (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Illustrated-Breeders-Marine-Aquarium/dp/1890087718/ref=pd_bxgy_14_text_y)
Banggai Cardinalfish: A Guide to Captive Care, Breeding & Natural History (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883693365/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
Aquarium Corals : Selection, Husbandry, and Natural History (http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Corals-Selection-Husbandry-Natural/dp/1890087475/ref=pd_sim_14_4?ie=UTF8&refRID=1T55MHF4VV2Z1P6HZFPV) by Eric H. Borneman
to name just a few...

BTW: it would help if you could list the fish you currently have and the ones that died.
A picture of the tank in its current state would also be helpful identifying possible issues.

CuzzA
05/27/2015, 05:19 AM
Perhaps they did a sloppy job, we really don't know. Qting fish doesn't guarantee every disease or parasite won't get into you tank. Unless you qt everything that goes into your system... Rock, inverts, corals, etc. There is no guarantee. In this case it could have been a little bad luck. It happens. Controlling your top of off via a conductivity probe is extremely dangerous. Probes have to be recalibrated from time to time as they will start to drift or eventually go bad. It's good practice to use it as a fail safe, but float switches and float valves are superior and should be the only trigger for an ATO.



Drater,

Yes, you should have a qt tank.

As already requested, what type of fish do you have right now? Can you provide a picture of the tank and system?

There's no guarantee an in tank treatment of CP will kill the pest. You could try it and it may work. You don't have a lot of rock, not a huge tank, so breaking it down, bleaching and starting over likely won't be that terrible of a job. Unfortunately, uronema is a pretty nasty pest to have. The thought of going through all the trouble to try and kill it and it comes right back would be enough for me to seriously consider starting over. Plus starting over will give you an opportunity to really learn the guts of your system since you didn't set it up. In addition it will give you the perfect opportunity to add some key pieces of equipment or change a few things to make maintenance easier.

homer1475
05/27/2015, 05:30 AM
Plus starting over will give you an opportunity to really learn the guts of your system since you didn't set it up. In addition it will give you the perfect opportunity to add some key pieces of equipment or change a few things to make maintenance easier.

I could not agree more with this statement. Although the thought of starting over sucks, it's probably the only way you'll get to know your tank specially if you didn't set it up originally.

It always baffles me how people can have someone setup a tank for them, then take over control. How on earth do you know what equipment you have, how each piece works, what to do if something fails, etc, etc.

Starting over may be your best bet. QT your current fish, then nuke the current tank and start over from scratch.

gone fishin
05/27/2015, 06:09 AM
After reading the thread I think the OP needs to decide first and foremost if they want to be hands on and take ownership of the tank, until then it is all academic.

CuzzA
05/27/2015, 06:13 AM
After reading the thread I think the OP needs to decide first and foremost if they want to be hands on and take ownership of the tank, until then it is all academic.

Indeed it is a time consuming commitment. The fact that he's here and has stated such, I believe he wants to own his tank. Being that this is a FOWLR will certainly make it easier than a reef tank.

Shawn O
05/27/2015, 06:47 AM
But, like you said, I can (and probably should) just treat the whole display tank. As far as the green polyps and snails go, if I remove them I can't do anything with them -- they're potentially hosts as well. I wouldn't want to give them to anyone, nor would I want to sell them back to the store.

So might as well just leave them in the tank. If they survive the treatment, great.

-d

Definitely QT everything going into the tank from this point forward, not that I'm the poster child for QTing, but since you have gotten all of your livestock from the same LFS I'd not be able to trust anything from them again. Not hating on the LFS, just consider them to be a risk if they supplied infected livestock.

Perhaps you could QT your current fish and treat them while in QT and double-dose the medication to the (mostly) empty DT? It couldn't hurt to do a few 50% water changes on the DT, after medicating, while your fish are in QT.

urbanrat84
05/27/2015, 10:31 AM
The existing fish appear healthy and have been in the tank for 4-6mos....

It's only new fish that die off at a 100% success rate.

I was going to go down the quarantine path as well until I read what you wrote above - so my questions are what are the names of the fish that you have? and what are the names of the fish that have died so far?

I'm wondering if its a compatibility/aggression issue. The pictures I have seen by googling Uronema are basically fish covered in wounds.

It also sounds to me like this problem is outside of your LFS expertise level. Unless you genuinely want to take up this hobby for your own enjoyment, I would concentrate on either solving this issue yourself until you have the number of fish and species that you are happy with, or hiring another tank maintenance specialist with more advanced knowledge to get to the bottom of it for you.

reefwiser
05/27/2015, 10:57 AM
Where are you located? Perhaps a local club or another maintenance company can be suggested.

GilliganReef
05/27/2015, 12:09 PM
Please do. I won't be a beginner forever.
-d

I have been keeping SW tanks for about 10 years combined now and about 3 years of it reefing. I still think I am a beginner at this. I love this hobby because you can learn something new everyday on this forum.

ThRoewer
05/27/2015, 12:12 PM
...Controlling your top of off via a conductivity probe is extremely dangerous. Probes have to be recalibrated from time to time as they will start to drift or eventually go bad. It's good practice to use it as a fail safe, but float switches and float valves are superior and should be the only trigger for an ATO.
...

In my experience float switches are more likely to fail and if they fail you never know in which position. But by Murphy's Law it will likely be the worst case. And the "fail safe" ones have a rather large hysteresis.

A conductivity probe is nothing more than two (or four) platinum contacts and the only thing that will alter its reading is if something grows on these contacts. Regular cleaning and checking will easily prevent false readings.
In a reef tank the by far most likely deviation is that it reads the salinity lower than it actually is. Since refill should be triggered by a higher than targeted salinity the worst case scenario is that it doesn't add enough water. On top of that my reservoir would not allow enough water to be added to cause an overflow.

So I find salinity control is safer and should also cause lesser salinity swings than a float switch.
BTW: No ATO system should ever be operated on a set and forget basis but rather checked at least once a week if not daily. It isn't meant for convenience but for stability of salinity.


As for bleaching the live rock - I would say that this decision depends largely on the kind of rock they have. If it is man made live rock I would agree that sterilizing them would probably be the best course of action.
Though I don't like the idea of bleaching natural live rock, especially if it is full of coralline algae and micro life.

If they decide to go forward and manage the tank by themselves, starting over from scratch may actually be the best course of action.

pdiehm
05/27/2015, 12:15 PM
No one ever fails, they merely find a way not to do something. If you keep trying, one cannot fail.

cmcoker
05/27/2015, 12:47 PM
I have seen it stated several times that a kitchen RO unit is all that is necessary. I think that needs a qualifier, for some water supplies that may be all you need.
It would not be sufficient for my city water. I had water with a TDS of 1 cause issues in my tank, corals were very upset. Parameters were in check, 0 TDS water is only change I made to correct it. So for my city water an RODI unit was a necessity, even though my tank was only a 55g at the time.

ThRoewer
05/27/2015, 12:55 PM
I have seen it stated several times that a kitchen RO unit is all that is necessary. I think that needs a qualifier, for some water supplies that may be all you need.
It would not be sufficient for my city water. I had water with a TDS of 1 cause issues in my tank, corals were very upset. Parameters were in check, 0 TDS water is only change I made to correct it. So for my city water an RODI unit was a necessity, even though my tank was only a 55g at the time.

There are very good kitchen water RO/DI systems - I would invest into one of those.

Before I had a dedicated RO system for my saltwater tanks. Back then I had over 30 tanks and the RO system was pretty much running 24/7.

But for a single, rather small tank a dedicated RO system is just overkill.

CuzzA
05/27/2015, 01:09 PM
There's definitely more than one way to skin a cat. I don't want to derail the op's thread. IMO, a conductivity probe can be effected by many variables like dosing and temperature and is not a measure of evaporation. Although evaporation does effect it's reading. Through my research I decided on a gravity fed ATO as it is directly operated by evaporation. My gravity fed ATO is a 20 gallon poly container with a float valve (output is dry so less possibility of getting stuck open) on the sump and a dry float switch in the sump that closes an inline normally open solenoid if the valve were to fail and trigger the float switch. In addition, my conductivity probe and ph probe are programmed in my Apex to close the solenoid in the event the readings drop which would indicate a failure somewhere and too much freshwater has been introduced to the system. I also have a bulkhead at the top of my sump that goes to my house drain. If all systems were to fail the worse thing that would happen would be a non lethal drop in salinity. The valve also prevents any possibility of an outlet getting stuck in the on position with the Apex, which unfortunately does happen. On top of all of that, I would be notified by my Apex if any of these events happen. The major advantage to the gravity system is there is zero fluctuation and it doesn't rely on one piece of equipment or one failure point. My setup is essentially fail proof. Of course, not everyone can set there's up this way.

skeeter_ca
05/27/2015, 01:26 PM
Most all kitchen systems are usually only RO. They don't have the DI portion of the system because the water doesn't taste as good when ran through the DI resin. If you get a good RO/DI system you can also get a drinking water kit to go with it for just a little bit extra cost. The drinking kit is then tapped into the system between the RO membrane and the DI resin cartridge.

I would say a 75 gallon tank with sump would warrant a RO/DI system. Not only should you be doing approximately 10% water change weekly but also topping off the system with fresh RO/DI water daily. That would be about 15-20 gallons a week of RO/DI water needed weekly.

Watch the Bulk Reef Supply (BRS) videos on YouTube pertaining to choosing a RO/DI system for a wealth of information.

Mcgeezer
05/27/2015, 06:01 PM
If you are paying someone to take care of your tank and everything keeps dying....you need to fire them now. Would you keep an underperforming employee on the payroll or give them the axe?

The one thing no one has mentioned is...how oxygenated is your water? Is there sufficient surface movement? Good flow thru the tank? Surface skimming via an overflow? That would be my number one guess as to the root cause of your problems.

Are the fish exibiting any signs of ich or other parasitic infections?

Shawn O
05/28/2015, 08:31 AM
I can't seem to find a post in which you mention which fish you have. You stated you have four fish that have not died but all others added have. Please post which fish the four survivors are and then the fish you've added that have died. There are many people here at RC that have considerable knowledge of all things fish. With this wealth of knowledge at your fingertips I'm sure they can help you figure this out, they just need all of the information you can provide.

Jason S
05/28/2015, 01:28 PM
If your new fish are dying within 3 days, I very highly doubt that it is any parasite unless they had it when they were put in. Uronema has a similar life cycle to other parasites like Crypto, so if it is that, the best way to ensure that it is gone is to let the tank remain fallow for 72ish days while you QT and treat what fish you have.

I would first check the top off water with a TDS meter to make sure it is definitely R/O, and I would look at a new test kit. It is also a very good idea to see if any other enthusiasts live closer to you, and can help you learn. Check and see if you have a local reef club... Most are eager to help people new to the hobby.

Keeping a FOWLR is not any more difficult than keeping a freshwater guppy tank to be honest, and it does not need to take that much time. Having to mix the saltwater for water changes is the only thing that comes to mind that is significantly different. You have the desire to learn, and that is the critical first step. We just need to figure out why you are losing fish first.

ol Dirty Reefer
05/29/2015, 01:15 AM
Just a quick summary of what I think is important to keep in mind here. I've been reading through this thread and there is no shortage of experienced people willing to help and so I add my 2c.

I'm not sure of all the equipment you have but I think the following is essential in order to run a healthy (and minimal maintenance) fish only w/ live rock (FOWLR) tank.

Life Support System:
-Heater
-Skimmer (you do have a sump right?) (or some other nutrient export mechanism)
-Auto Top Off (ATO) <-- Not technically required but seeing as you work 1000 hours a week will give you more time to actually enjoy the hobby.
-Refractometer
-Quarantine/Hospital tank

Nice to haves:
-Lights
-Powerheads
-RODI (Once you beat the problem with your fish you'll want to minimize algae and a good way to do that is not introduce unnecessary/potentially harmful stuff in your tank)
-etc...

Good stable parameters are usually a good thing in this hobby. One way to achieve that is consistent maintenance. Over time, your tank will adapt to your schedule. Your nutrient import/export and bacteria will all be in harmony and your inhabitants will thank you for it.
-Weekly water changes (The more the better but at least 5% if you have a good skimmer)
-Weekly testing of parameters (including salt level)
-Make any changes slowly over time, not all at once and observe
-Keep a log (Excel file?) of your parameters over time and any notes

The issue with your fish is a tough one. I have no personal experience with Uronema but for peace of mind and seeing as you don't have much in your tank (a few fish and some inverts) I would start over. Put the survivors in a hospital tank and nuke your display. Bleach, freshwater, whatever you need to do to make sure there is no chance that whatever is in your tank survives. This goes for all your equipment too.

Treat the survivors with whatever method you think is appropriate but they should be in the hospital tank and symptom free for at least a month before reintroducing them to the display.

Take the month+ time your critters are in the hospital to read up and learn as much as you can to ensure your reboot is a successful one.

Aqualoon
05/29/2015, 07:49 AM
Hey Drater, you seem like the type who is willing to put money into the tank who wants a nice show piece without all that much maintenance. I would like to point you to the Apex controller systems for this type of setup.

I just started my 72g bowfront and the only type of maintenance I do on it is clean the glass (need to get some snails to do this), empty the skimmer cup and make up the water in barrels. See, I have an Apex system and have their DOS setup to automatically do small water changes every day and the Apex setup with an ATO. I can check some of my parameters through the probes (like temp, ph, conductivity) through my web browser/on my phone and my lights are on a timer.

But it's really easy, every Friday I just fill up my barrels and make a fresh batch of saltwater and that's it.