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d2mini
06/15/2015, 09:11 AM
Hey kids! :wave:
I was witness to something amazing this weekend.
After some begging, I got permission to share with ya'll. This is too crazy not to!

Those of you following my build thread may have seen this post from this weekend...
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23807703#post23807703
I picked up a box of colorful goodies from Richard at Tampa Bay Saltwater.
But there was TWO boxes! Surprise! But he wouldn't tell me what it was. Grrrr....
So I get home, open it up and it was.... drum roll please.... More rock. :hmm4:

Ummm, "Hey Richard... what gives? I could use some rock but what's the big deal?"

A little background for those who are not familiar with Tampa Bay Saltwater. TBS has been providing the industry with what I believe is the best Live Rock available for the past 20+ years. With same day shipping via air freight, and shipped in water, his rock arrives with an unreal amount of life. When setting up a tank with "The Package", you end up with a fully functioning reef within days. Truly amazing and worth every penny. Check out his sponsor forum here on RC or my own build threads for tons of pics and testimonials. And on top of all this, TBS is an eco-friendly solution because the rock is brought in by barge and his own boat, dumped into his lease off the coast of Tampa Bay, Florida, and left there to colonize. No destruction of our natural reefs.
Check out www.tbsaltwater.com for more info.

Fast forward to today and the answer to my question above... why this awesome live rock I just received is so special?
I'm sure many of you know or have heard of Walt Smith. Mr Smith has been working for years on developing his own eco-friendly live rock. Check it out here...
http://www.waltsmith.com/Aquaculture/CultLiveRock.htm
Well apparently, these two pioneers in our hobby have joined forces. Walt began shipping his man-made rock to TBS. Richard has been busting his butt, hauling all this rock out on his boat and dumping it into his lease. I'm about to post some pics below and what you are about to see is truly AMAZING. But what's so amazing about what is essentially fake rock? Even Walt Smith has been letting his rock cook in the ocean in Fiji. What make this so special? Well... let's let the pics answer those questions.


Here is the rock in Richard's hands after unpacking, just seconds before dumping into the waters in Tampa Bay.

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-s6dMVXx/0/L/i-s6dMVXx-L.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-95K97pt/0/L/i-95K97pt-L.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-P3N9Nwd/0/L/i-P3N9Nwd-L.jpg


Not too shabby. Lots of nooks and crannies, it comes in all shapes and sizes, and it's a lot lighter than the usual TBS rock. It even has a good base color, straight through the rock, so as coralline begins to grow it looks pretty natural.
But as far as appearances go, not very exciting, is it?

Well... here are pics of what I received this weekend.
I think you will now see why I was scratching my head and was FOOLED into thinking this was just more of his standard live rock that I've been using for years.
And the most amazing part.... this is just TWO MONTHS of growth!
Can you imagine what it will look like after 6 months? Richard has the magic touch!
Not only is this stuff just as amazing as his original rock that we've grown to love, but now it's lighter, comes in a variety of shapes for amazing aquascapes, and it's 100% eco-friendly AND it helps out the Fiji natives.


http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-WZ5JTqs/0/O/i-WZ5JTqs.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-W5nbxSw/0/O/i-W5nbxSw.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-bLgsS8k/0/O/i-bLgsS8k.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-3mCbx4n/0/O/i-3mCbx4n.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-XQpJqwD/0/O/i-XQpJqwD.jpg


Sponges, tunicates, barnacles, feather dusters, macros.... you name it, it's got it.
There is something about Walt's rock that's letting it colonize at an unheard of rate. It doesn't even look like the same rock!

So that's what I had to share. I'll let Richard fill in the holes and answer questions. Please ask questions, get a good discussion going, share with friends, etc.
We need to stop taking rock from the coral reefs. With rock like this, this is no longer any reason to!
But wow... if any one is looking for truly live rock to start up a new tank or just add to an existing system, you MUST check this out. You will not be disappointed. If you liked TBS rock before, you are really going to love this stuff. I was floored.
And for what it's worth, I added these 5 or 6 pieces to my system this weekend. Straight out of the boxes/bags and into my tank and it hasn't skipped a beat. With TBS, his rock is going straight from the real ocean to your ocean which is what makes it so great.
And even if you don't want to start a tank with live rock for whatever reason, TBS now sells dry and live Pukani. But the Pukani is not getting colonized at anywhere near the rate that this Walt Smith rock is!

More pics coming....

d2mini
06/15/2015, 09:12 AM
http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-rrNfvpc/0/O/i-rrNfvpc.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-pWXsdb5/0/O/i-pWXsdb5.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-hRGQMb4/0/O/i-hRGQMb4.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-PszdhzB/0/O/i-PszdhzB.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-pvChFqG/0/O/i-pvChFqG.jpg

http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-DtBkpBq/0/O/i-DtBkpBq.jpg

lifeoffaith
06/15/2015, 09:16 AM
Sounds awesome, can't see the photos here at work...but I'm subscribed!

JRR1285
06/15/2015, 09:19 AM
That just looks incredible. I'll be sure to order that when it's time to upgrade my system.

DavidinGA
06/15/2015, 09:38 AM
Awesome!

CuzzA
06/15/2015, 09:39 AM
I was out with Richard a couple weeks ago and he said that life just clings to the man made rock much faster than the natural harvested rock. I imagine it's because the quality is just as good (Held and saw it with my own hands and eyes) and because there is no PO4 being leached out of the rock. I was going to use the Pukani he got, but now after seeing your pics, I'm on the fence. I may just go with the man made. Looks great!

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/vw37ncSW_MA" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Chevrefils
06/15/2015, 09:44 AM
No way Jose!

slief
06/15/2015, 09:54 AM
Wow.. That is amazing! That rock looks as good as any live rock I've ever seen. My tank is packed with Walt Smith live rock that got nearly 20 years ago directly from his So. Cal facility (when he had it) and I don't remember that rock ever looking as good as the stuff you pictured above. If I ever re-do my aquascape, this will certainly be the way I would go.

johnike
06/15/2015, 10:00 AM
Wow thanks Dennis!
I think I know what's going in my new 93 cube.

d2mini
06/15/2015, 10:12 AM
Wow.. That is amazing! That rock looks as good as any live rock I've ever seen. My tank is packed with Walt Smith live rock that got nearly 20 years ago directly from his So. Cal facility (when he had it) and I don't remember that rock ever looking as good as the stuff you pictured above. If I ever re-do my aquascape, this will certainly be the way I would go.

Right?!
And just think... this is after only 2 months!
Imagine what it will look like in 6.

I don't think Walt or Richard expected this. I know Richard is super excited.

PhaneSoul
06/15/2015, 11:01 AM
Have thre been anh tests done on nutrients/chemicals/whatnot that leach from the rock when its ready to be put into the holding bay?

liverock
06/15/2015, 12:10 PM
Have thre been anh tests done on nutrients/chemicals/whatnot that leach from the rock when its ready to be put into the holding bay?

Walt has been making this rock since the 1990's....they have been through the learning curve on producing a product that is ready to go for reef tanks...watch the video and read the other info on his site.

http://www.waltsmith.com/Aquaculture/CultLiveRock.htm

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin3::spin3::spin3:

liverock
06/15/2015, 12:19 PM
Wow.. That is amazing! That rock looks as good as any live rock I've ever seen. My tank is packed with Walt Smith live rock that got nearly 20 years ago directly from his So. Cal facility (when he had it) and I don't remember that rock ever looking as good as the stuff you pictured above. If I ever re-do my aquascape, this will certainly be the way I would go.

You hit it on the head. This rock surpasses any true live rock that is available today or in past history of the cultured live rock industry.

Remember back in the 80's when were were collecting natural live rock here in Florida , it was the most amazing rock the industry had to offer. The reason being rock grows here with more life than anywhere on the planet. That is why I picked the area off Tarpon Springs for the aquaculture site.

I and others tried growing it in other locations, but nowhere produced as good a live rock that grows off of Tarpon. The rock does not grow anywhere as fast or with so many different life forms. We are just blessed with the perfect environment for growing live rock here.

Was just out loading the boat with another 3250 pounds of Walts rock in 93 degree heat....got to figure out how to air condition the boat LOL....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

maxxII
06/15/2015, 12:27 PM
How does this man made rock respond to drilling?
Using Marco rocks I had to drill slowly & carefully when making holes for acrylic rods (to combine several rocks into larger, more stable pieces), and to have places to mount frags. I still had several pieces crack and even shatter when going very slow.

liverock
06/15/2015, 01:11 PM
How does this man made rock respond to drilling?
Using Marco rocks I had to drill slowly & carefully when making holes for acrylic rods (to combine several rocks into larger, more stable pieces), and to have places to mount frags. I still had several pieces crack and even shatter when going very slow.

Can't tell you as I have never drilled a rock.....in 40 years of doing this....but I think you will find that due to the way the rock is shaped, it fits together like legos and you would not find a need to drill it. The are plenty of nooks and crannies and each rock is different for placement of frags..building structure......ect. You will see amazing shapes when I start harvesting it.

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin1::spin1::spin1:

bitwise
06/15/2015, 01:33 PM
Very nice stuff

Tweaked
06/15/2015, 01:41 PM
Absolutely amazing rock and love the eco friendly message this conveys :thumbsup:

JoeVandal49
06/15/2015, 02:21 PM
Awesome.

I have to admit, i wasn't impressed with the before photos. The after are amazing.

I have been making my own rock every weekend and experimenting some. It is definitely a process of experimentation to get your mix correct, and then after that, to get various casting techniques down.

If everyone made some man made rock and cycled it the correct way, even if everyone in the hobby could make 5 pounds a month, we would never have need for natural reef rock ever again in this hobby.

I have been making batches every weekend because i enjoy it.

I will be breaking down the 300g FOWLR stock tank soon, and be useing it as the last holding container in my curing process.

My plan is to offer it to local reefers free of charge eventually, of course i would accept donations or trades to help offset some of the costs of making the rock.

I know a lot of us have space/financial/time restrictions, but if each of us took a harder look at how we could positively impact the hobby in our free time, a lot of the issues associated with the reef keeping hobby would become extinct.

toothybugs
06/15/2015, 03:04 PM
Dammit Dennis, just when I thought I was set to put the finishing touches on my current project!! :)

I have GOT to get in on this. The 'before' pics, yea, blah, but after - incredible. I think I am going to be scrapping my current rock project and going with this stuff for my desktop system. Perfect timing too - my salt arrives this week!

liverock
06/15/2015, 06:11 PM
OK...getting many messages about how much to ship to my zip code...

This is real live rock that is shipped underwater and cannot be sent via fed ex or ups...you read all the time how some folks get their live rock delivered via ground service wrapped in wet newspapers and experience dead loss and stressed out live rock..death....and curing..... That is not what this rock is about. This is real live rock that comes to you alive and happily shipped underwater and is added directly to your tank with no issues, every time, no curing no fuss no muss.

Most folks I ship The Package to
http://tbsaltwater.com/thepackage/index.html
never even get an ammonia spike and have a cycled tank in a week.
http://tbsaltwater.com/testimonials/index.html
I ship via the airlines to your airport. This insures a fast and timely shipment, usually same day to your airport. I pack it in the morning and you pick it up after work. You can safely add this rock to an existing cycled tank with no issues.

Pick up is easy, I supply the shipping info...and you just back up to the air cargo building load your boxes and off you go. It is not where you go as a passenger, the freight facility is in a different location, usually. Is quick, painless and insures you have the best quality live rock on the planet!

And....for weight estimate, for live rock only you can double the amount of rock ordered for an estimate on total weigh with water on it. IE fifty pounds of rock will weigh about ninety pounds with the water on it and be shipped in two boxes 17.17.10 inches. All the airlines are at about $90 per 100 pounds shipping charge. I pack 20-25 pounds per box of rock.

If ordering a Package, triple the size of the Package for weight estimate on part one, and a little less on part two as you won't have the live sand weight. IE a 30 gallon Package will weigh about ninety pounds part one...and little less on part two.

more shipping info here

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/shipping.html



Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin3::spin3::spin3:

Rippinfrags
06/15/2015, 07:40 PM
Looks great, but isn't their concern for pests/disease being added to your tank?

mfinn
06/15/2015, 08:24 PM
This is interesting

LNell
06/15/2015, 08:39 PM
Looks great, but isn't their concern for pests/disease being added to your tank?

With any rock, there's a biodiversity–parasite-risk tradeoff. If you're setting up a new tank, you could certainly let it "lie fallow" for a period of time. At least this rock gives you the *option* to introduce all sorts of interesting creatures.

shaggss
06/16/2015, 02:38 AM
This is great news for the hobby. Well done to pioneers like Richard and Walt. Now when are you setting up your facility in Hong Kong?

Ink
06/16/2015, 02:54 AM
If only those rocks could be shipped to Europe...

Luca

ReefSmarts
06/16/2015, 03:52 AM
Oh man! This thread just awwwwed me big time! I am working on a living room cube set up and was going to go with real reef Rock, but now I just feel like I need this rock. It looks amazing! Such biodiversity etc!This really looks like a Great product and idea! Kudos for you and Walt teaming up on this one.

liverock
06/16/2015, 04:59 AM
If only those rocks could be shipped to Europe...

Luca

They can, just requires extra hoops to jump through and more cost....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1:

d2mini
06/16/2015, 06:29 AM
Here' some pics of previous TBS rock that has gone in my tanks.


https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4090/5069397738_6277ba9549_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4086/5068790011_b9eb86a09b_z.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7262/7805298860_b56466d3d9_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8442/7841561518_8b7050d759_z.jpg

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8282/7805298452_6f6d0bf24a_z.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7119/7805299184_1a539a0c7d_z.jpg

Reel North
06/16/2015, 06:39 AM
Or Canada.......

It's not like we have oceans anything could survive in..... Lol

That is definitely pretty amazing. Live rock here is pretty lousy and sure doesn't come in like THAT

ITS DEFINITELY THE WAY OF THE FUTURE

liverock
06/16/2015, 08:28 AM
Or Canada.......

It's not like we have oceans anything could survive in..... Lol

That is definitely pretty amazing. Live rock here is pretty lousy and sure doesn't come in like THAT

ITS DEFINITELY THE WAY OF THE FUTURE

Is easy to drive rock across the border from the US into Canada...I do that all the time for folks....

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2504743

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

adamwheel
06/16/2015, 11:29 AM
I recently purchased the package for my DIY 178 gal. There were some very different looking rocks in shipment 2 that look remarkably similar to your pics. I think I may have received some too.

I had no cycle at all (as Richard states) btw.

Cheers,

Adam

liverock
06/16/2015, 11:52 AM
I recently purchased the package for my DIY 178 gal. There were some very different looking rocks in shipment 2 that look remarkably similar to your pics. I think I may have received some too.

I had no cycle at all (as Richard states) btw.

Cheers,

Adam

Yup...you got some of the first I ever harvested and shipped....special pieces!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

joshky
06/16/2015, 11:59 AM
http://bluelemonphoto.smugmug.com/photos/i-s6dMVXx/0/L/i-s6dMVXx-L.jpg

Chocolate covered popcorn rock. :D I really like the after photos, I hope someone can post some pictures of this rock again in another 4 months.

d2mini
06/16/2015, 12:53 PM
I hope someone can post some pictures of this rock again in another 4 months.

By then it will be covered in coral. :D

Long term, this isn't really about the looks.
It's about starting your tank off on the right foot and having an uber stable, fully functioning mini ecosystem from the get go.
No buying bottles of Dr Tims, no long cycle, no curing, no tank full of bleached white rock while you wait for it to color up, no P04 leaching, no waiting for months before adding fish and coral. Just a colorful, healthy, instant reef tank.

My current tank had to be setup as quickly as possible since a buddy was holding a bunch of my fish and coral from the previous tank. Once I got part 2 of The Package and waited for my parameters to level out, I got all my stuff back and put it in the tank. No losses. Like a tank transfer, some stuff took some time to adjust but that's to be expected. 3 years later my rock probably doesn't look much different than anyone else's 3 year old rock. What you can see of it, anyway. :)

CuzzA
06/16/2015, 02:12 PM
I don't think it would be a bad idea to add some real live rock from time to time too. Biodiversity is king and if left unchecked in our closed systems many organisims will die off while others take over.

rmcaum
06/16/2015, 02:28 PM
Nothing to do with this particular topic, but to add something to Dennis' advantage list; I got the package in a 29, then bought a 2 month old used system that had been started with brs dry rock. The new tank is three times the size with three times the fish and three times the coral. My package from TBS is over two years old. I find myself spending three times the amount of time watching and studying the 29 because of the diversity of life and I still find something new pretty often. The newer tank just looks barren in comparison, it completely lacks the biodiversity and hence the entertainment and excitement. I have considered staging the coral and fish while I order a package for the bigger tank. Totally worth it.

LNell
06/16/2015, 03:43 PM
I don't think it would be a bad idea to add some real live rock from time to time too. Biodiversity is king and if left unchecked in our closed systems many organisims will die off while others take over.

So true. I don't think enough people take this into consideration for their tanks, nor do I think a comparatively sterile fish-and-coral-only tank is the most exciting to watch. For those interested in reading up on this concept, you can start by googling "ecological succession."

BigJohnny
06/17/2015, 12:54 AM
I considered doing this until I saw the price of "the package", so steep IMO. Obviously a great product but just not worth it, again IMO. Ever consider a budget version? [emoji12]

shaggss
06/17/2015, 01:42 AM
They can, just requires extra hoops to jump through and more cost....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1:

Hi Richard

Just FYI your website still says that you can't ship internationally:

International Shipments

We are no longer shipping internationally, as the permitting process can take more than six months and the costs have become prohibitive.

Any questions? Contact us.

d2mini
06/17/2015, 06:31 AM
I considered doing this until I saw the price of "the package", so steep IMO. Obviously a great product but just not worth it, again IMO. Ever consider a budget version? [emoji12]

You couldn't be more wrong about The Package.
Do the math.
Even if you bought the rock alone at $5/lb, that's cheaper than most LFS and you can't even begin to compare the quality.
Then add in all the real live sand skimmed right off the ocean floor chock full of life. Then add in all the cleanup crew. Then add in the bags of freebies! Sponges, gorgonians, stars, urchins, etc.
Almost every single customer compares picking up Part 2 of the package to Christmas morning. Check out the testimonials in the sponsor forum.

When you add it all up it's well worth it.
And the benefits you reap are priceless.

liverock
06/17/2015, 06:50 AM
Hi Richard

Just FYI your website still says that you can't ship internationally:

Yes I know....I leave it there...as international is a real ball of worms.....the costs involved make it impractical. The US fish and wildlife service charges $250.00 for clearing EACH shipment for export internationally of live rock.

So add on top of the cost of the rock and freight makes it very pricy.

Back in the day when I shipped overseas all the time it was a simple process, fill out a couple of forms, and a $35 clearance fee, and off it went overseas, was painless. It is not like that anymore, like everything else. LOL

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

CuzzA
06/17/2015, 07:26 AM
The U.S. government are experts at stymieing business.

As far as the $5-7 so called live rock you buy at a LFS goes, that, IMO is not live rock. Putting dry rock in a saltwater vat for a couple months is hardly what I would consider alive. Bacteria and a few pods, speckled with a little coraline algae is what I would describe as, "Damn son, you paid 2-3x the cost of dry rock for some extra water weight!"

Set "The Package" aside for a second because it can't be compared to just rock and instead just compare the cost of live rock alone. $5/lbs. of what we see above or $5-7/lbs. of this so called "high quality live rock" we commonly see at the LFS's below. And I'm not trying to knock the LFS, but buying rock for $.20-$.50 per pound and then selling it for $5-7 as live rock a month later is what I would describe as "too steep and not worth it".

The rock below is advertised for $7/lbs.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=320876&stc=1&d=1434547239

Breadman03
06/17/2015, 07:54 AM
I considered doing this until I saw the price of "the package", so steep IMO. Obviously a great product but just not worth it, again IMO. Ever consider a budget version? [emoji12]


Buy a bunch of dry rock locally, then add in a smaller Package to bring in the diversity.

GSMclowns
06/17/2015, 07:59 AM
Those live rocks directly from the ocean are great.. But once we put them into our tank, will the sponge and other creatures survive at all? and for how long?

liverock
06/17/2015, 08:46 AM
I considered doing this until I saw the price of "the package", so steep IMO. Obviously a great product but just not worth it, again IMO. Ever consider a budget version? [emoji12]

Howdy

Live rock in the Package is $4 a pound...or by itself $5 a pound....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

Devaji108
06/17/2015, 03:53 PM
Oh man I want some!!

malacoda
06/17/2015, 07:29 PM
Those live rocks directly from the ocean are great.. But once we put them into our tank, will the sponge and other creatures survive at all? and for how long?

I've been doing a TON of research the past 6 weeks for a 120g build I hope to begin this fall. And from what I've seen in several threads (in addition to d2mini's awesome build threads), YES, the sponges and other creatures can survive for a very long time. Like any life in your tank, how long will depend on tank parameters, light placement, and good husbandry.

Wooglin's 13-year old tank is a great example of how long life on TBS rocks can last...

Here's his build thread which was started in 2003 and continued with fantastic updates and pics through 2008 (warning: it's so lengthy and packed with responses that it was split...):
First thread: http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254435 (http://archive.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254435)
Split thread: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=569267

And a 13-year old tank update he posted about a week ago: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2508395

Personally, I was sold on TBS rock within my first week of research here on RC and other popular aquarist forums. Seeing Wooglin's update last week (and the lengthy read thru of his original build threads that it led me to) merely cemented my decision.

When the summer chaos and travels end and I'm finally able to start my build this fall, I'll definitely be going with a TBS package.

saf1
06/18/2015, 06:08 PM
It is good to see small business like TBS doing well in the US. Sort of tie a hobby, outdoors, ocean, and diving all into a business that hopefully is returning enough money to pay the bills, employees, and their retirement is a good thing. I would personally support that if I was to do another build or find a way to add some to my current 40.

There is another side to the hobby that people take pleasure in believe it or not and that is the complete cycle of a new tank. The curing of the rock and sand through various phases is a biological education love fest if one has the time and patience. I know I enjoyed my first experience with it.

In any case this is a good thing with results to show. And it probably is a positive for the hobby. That is also a good thing.

BigJohnny
06/18/2015, 07:43 PM
You couldn't be more wrong about The Package.
Do the math.
Even if you bought the rock alone at $5/lb, that's cheaper than most LFS and you can't even begin to compare the quality.
Then add in all the real live sand skimmed right off the ocean floor chock full of life. Then add in all the cleanup crew. Then add in the bags of freebies! Sponges, gorgonians, stars, urchins, etc.
Almost every single customer compares picking up Part 2 of the package to Christmas morning. Check out the testimonials in the sponsor forum.

When you add it all up it's well worth it.
And the benefits you reap are priceless.

I was going to respond to this in specifics because I was put off by your surprising attack on my comments, but since you said I was wrong (it's my opinion, there is no right or wrong thank you very much), and then said that it was "priceless" (which most definitely is an opinion considering every item can actually be purchased at a price) I'm just going to say this:

I wasn't talking to you. Do you sell "the package"? No, you don't. My comment was clearly towards the man from TBS.

Do everyone a favor and don't turn this into an argument which ends up hijacking the thread. Especially if you like the vendor so much they really dont want to see that.

I stated my OPINION and asked a question of the vendor, he answered already.

Thanks

BigJohnny
06/18/2015, 07:46 PM
The U.S. government are experts at stymieing business.

As far as the $5-7 so called live rock you buy at a LFS goes, that, IMO is not live rock. Putting dry rock in a saltwater vat for a couple months is hardly what I would consider alive. Bacteria and a few pods, speckled with a little coraline algae is what I would describe as, "Damn son, you paid 2-3x the cost of dry rock for some extra water weight!"

Set "The Package" aside for a second because it can't be compared to just rock and instead just compare the cost of live rock alone. $5/lbs. of what we see above or $5-7/lbs. of this so called "high quality live rock" we commonly see at the LFS's below. And I'm not trying to knock the LFS, but buying rock for $.20-$.50 per pound and then selling it for $5-7 as live rock a month later is what I would describe as "too steep and not worth it".

The rock below is advertised for $7/lbs.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=320876&stc=1&d=1434547239
I would agree, I wouldn't buy live rock from lfs. I don't believe I ever said I would, nor did i compare it to any other option specifically. I simply said IMO it's too expensive and not worth it. However there are a plethora of other options besides "the package" and live rock from an lfs (also not all live rock at lfs is the same).

Thanks

BigJohnny
06/18/2015, 07:48 PM
Howdy

Live rock in the Package is $4 a pound...or by itself $5 a pound....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com [emoji38]spin:[emoji38]spin:[emoji38]spin:
The live rock at $5/lb certainly is a good deal! Thanks for the info I wasn't even aware you sold anything besides "the package". It's very popular so that is all I have ever heard of!

Ghlreefer
06/19/2015, 12:16 AM
I'll second d2. Richard at TBS has some amazing rock. Full of life!

alton
06/19/2015, 05:24 AM
Big difference from what was available in 2000 from a store in SA

CuzzA
06/19/2015, 07:53 AM
Here's a video I put together from yesterdays excursion. Visibility wasn't all that great, but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Who can spot the flounder?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23819288#post23819288

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r6hRs_sxRUM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

smatter
06/19/2015, 08:11 AM
Big difference from what was available in 2000 from a store in SA

Looks like it's came from a parking lot :strange:

smatter
06/19/2015, 08:18 AM
I was going to respond to this in specifics because I was put off by your surprising attack on my comments, but since you said I was wrong (it's my opinion, there is no right or wrong thank you very much), and then said that it was "priceless" (which most definitely is an opinion considering every item can actually be purchased at a price) I'm just going to say this:

I wasn't talking to you. Do you sell "the package"? No, you don't. My comment was clearly towards the man from TBS.

Do everyone a favor and don't turn this into an argument which ends up hijacking the thread. Especially if you like the vendor so much they really dont want to see that.

I stated my OPINION and asked a question of the vendor, he answered already.

Thanks

Wow

liverock
06/19/2015, 08:45 AM
Here's a video I put together from yesterdays excursion. Visibility wasn't all that great, but it's pretty cool nonetheless. Who can spot the flounder?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23819288#post23819288

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/r6hRs_sxRUM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Well that came out very good.....a little info....Cuzza shot that with a go pro hanging on a fishing pole.....he lowered it to the bottom and walked around the boat with the rod and reel. I am amazed at what he captured.

Cuzza...did ya go sign up for the scuba lessons yesterday....as I foresee a lot of video/bottom time for you!

Thanks man, that was GREAT...and guess we got to take some time and catch some of those mangrove snapper that were swimming all around the rock for dinner, they looked legal size..... LOL

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:

Ink
06/19/2015, 08:48 AM
They can, just requires extra hoops to jump through and more cost....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1:

International Shipments

We are no longer shipping internationally, as the permitting process can take more than six months and the costs have become prohibitive.

Are You sure?

I think here in the old world we still have to continue waiting until all the formerly live stuff into live rocks rots into our tank water...

Luca

pigskin018
06/19/2015, 08:52 AM
So is this live rock 2.1 only better because it saves natural rock and looks cool after its pulled up?

I guess I'm trying to find another benefit like it absorbs less nutrients to leech later or something? That would make me want to replace all my rock right now lol.

Read a little on Walts site but didn't come away with any more info...

CuzzA
06/19/2015, 09:04 AM
Well that came out very good.....a little info....Cuzza shot that with a go pro hanging on a fishing pole.....he lowered it to the bottom and walked around the boat with the rod and reel. I am amazed at what he captured.



Cuzza...did ya go sign up for the scuba lessons yesterday....as I foresee a lot of video/bottom time for you!



Thanks man, that was GREAT...and guess we got to take some time and catch some of those mangrove snapper that were swimming all around the rock for dinner, they looked legal size..... LOL



sea ya

Richard TBS

www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:


You're welcome.

I didn't make it to the Scuba place. Check your sponsor thread. I posted the incident that happened as I was pulling away from your place. Going today though.

Mangrove Snapper!!! Haha. That was the first thing that grabbed my attention when I previewed the video. Dinner!!! I thought I saw a decent grouper too, but couldn't make it out.

I'm pretty happy with the video given that I was filming blind. No way to know what the video is capturing.

Here's a couple of my DIY GoPro rigs. The selfie stick is a $5 window expansion pole squeegee from Wally World. And the bottom viewer is something I threw together to look for new fishing ledges, structure and holes in the Gulf. (Note: it's wire and not fishing line on the "Gulf Lander") Saves a lot of money on fuel for my boat.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=321058&stc=1&d=1434726554

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=321059&stc=1&d=1434726554

liverock
06/19/2015, 09:07 AM
Reminded me of the lunar lander touching down, poof of gulf dust...then picture...that was cool! LOL

where is the dad gum flounder......

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

CuzzA
06/19/2015, 09:13 AM
Reminded me of the lunar lander touching down, poof of gulf dust...then picture...that was cool! LOL

where is the dad gum flounder......

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com


Haha. Pause it at 5:31. I must of landed it on his head. Lol

liverock
06/19/2015, 09:47 AM
Haha. Pause it at 5:31. I must of landed it on his head. Lol

Now I see...was just a PUFF of lunar lander gulf dust...and he was GONE!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :beer:

AugustWest
06/21/2015, 10:55 PM
I'm a little confused and have a question. So, is the rock pictured on page 1 what we would get if we ordered live rock right now? Or is this something that is going to be harvested in the future?

liverock
06/22/2015, 05:36 AM
I'm a little confused and have a question. So, is the rock pictured on page 1 what we would get if we ordered live rock right now? Or is this something that is going to be harvested in the future?

I have both in stock, ready to ship!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:

sahin
06/25/2015, 08:29 AM
Wow, that is truly amazing rock. Soooo much better than the crappy rock we get here in the UK...

sahin
06/25/2015, 08:51 AM
I have both in stock, ready to ship!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com (http://www.tbsaltwater.com) :bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:

Any chance you can send this rock to the UK? I know we get Real Reef Rock etc, so it is a possibility...

Maybe approach one of the big names in the UK. :)

liverock
06/25/2015, 08:56 AM
Any chance you can send this rock to the UK? I know we get Real Reef Rock etc, so it is a possibility...

Maybe approach one of the big names in the UK. :)

Yes, being it is aqua cultured, and not coral....travels without a CITES permit, however does require a US Fish+Wildlife clearance fee of $250.00 for each shipment...to go across the pond!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

dbl
06/25/2015, 10:04 AM
Very interesting. Just took a look at the website. So if your system is purchased, and the tank is cycled per your instructions, it eliminates the need for future water changes? Is that the case or did I simply read it wrong?

liverock
06/25/2015, 10:16 AM
Very interesting. Just took a look at the website. So if your system is purchased, and the tank is cycled per your instructions, it eliminates the need for future water changes? Is that the case or did I simply read it wrong?

When using the Package...and part one...no water changes unless the ammonia goes over 1ppm....while the tank cycles...and then part two goes in...same deal...no changes unless the ammonia goes over 1ppm....

most folks never have to do a water changes on part one....as this is real live rock and sand...makes setting up a tank painless..

read here
http://tbsaltwater.com/thepackage/index.html

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce1::bounce1::bounce1:

d2mini
06/25/2015, 12:32 PM
Very interesting. Just took a look at the website. So if your system is purchased, and the tank is cycled per your instructions, it eliminates the need for future water changes? Is that the case or did I simply read it wrong?

The instructions are purely for initial setup/cycle.
Like Richard explained, most of the time there is very little "cycle" if any and you end up with a tank ready to support a light bio-load within a week or two from the time you receive Part I.

After that, it's just like any other established reef tank... water changes are recommended.

liverock
06/25/2015, 12:48 PM
The instructions are purely for initial setup/cycle.
Like Richard explained, most of the time there is very little "cycle" if any and you end up with a tank ready to support a light bio-load within a week or two from the time you receive Part I.

After that, it's just like any other established reef tank... water changes are recommended.

Correct...and here is a typical feedback on a Package purchase from last week!


Good morning from Punta Gorda,

My "Package: Part One" was delivered a week ago today.

Ammonia never got above 0.25, and is now showing zero. Nitrites also show zip. I haven't changed any water, just had to ATO add RODI. Still no skimmer action.

Life in the tank seems pretty healthy. My new pet is (I think) a pincushion urchin about 1.25 inches with light gray spines who carries around a thin piece of rock and a small shell. He's everywhere. I hear the pistol shrimp every 10 or 15 minutes, but I have never seen him. I removed 6 whelks between 1/4 inch and 3/4 inch. Lots of very pretty tiny feather dusters, etc.

So I'm really glad I decided to have you supply the basis for my little piece of the reef.

I would like your judgment about when to do "Part II."

I can work my schedule to be free whenever the shipment comes. As early as tomorrow, if you think we're ready. Or next week if we should wait a bit.

Thanks in advance for you help and good information.


Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :bounce3::bounce3::bounce3:

Shells4
06/25/2015, 12:56 PM
Do you have to buy a package or can you just buy the live rock? Anybody know if you can pick it up locally. we make trips to Florida every couple of years and I would definitely drive to Tampa to pick up a box on our way home.

liverock
06/25/2015, 02:58 PM
Do you have to buy a package or can you just buy the live rock? Anybody know if you can pick it up locally. we make trips to Florida every couple of years and I would definitely drive to Tampa to pick up a box on our way home.

Here ya go...

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/pricelist.html

but much easier to air freight it...I pack it in the morning...you pick it up three hours later...

AugustWest
06/25/2015, 05:09 PM
So, is the rock on page 1 Reef Rock 2.1 ? Sorry, must be me, excuse my stupidity ;)

liverock
06/25/2015, 06:30 PM
So, is the rock on page 1 Reef Rock 2.1 ? Sorry, must be me, excuse my stupidity ;)

Is the first few pics that Dennis took in the video...here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6hRs_sxRUM

sea ya!
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

AugustWest
06/25/2015, 07:18 PM
Ok , one last try. What is it called on the order form?

liverock
06/26/2015, 03:22 AM
Ok , one last try. What is it called on the order form?

LOL...'live rock'...and under comments...you want the 2.1 ...live...

off to drop rock

sea ya

Aframomum
06/26/2015, 03:34 AM
Wishing you good conditions this morning as I know we have been having our rounds of summer storms.

Salty life to be sure!!

Mark

smatter
06/28/2015, 07:13 PM
I pushed a few buttons on my phone this morning and thirty minutes later Richard calls me and now I get to see this rock up close tomorrow morning. That, Ladies and Gentlemen, is great customer service, and on a Sunday to boot.

Devaji108
06/29/2015, 12:43 AM
^ooooo well plz do share some pics or vids we all love those. HA

xcrytonx
06/29/2015, 12:44 AM
Going to be setting my tank back up after a 2 year break, had a full tank crash and could not get m self to start over at the time.
Anyways, thought you stated your rock was down for 6 months? if so is there any plans for 1 year rock or like 2 year rock? Decent live rock here in Ca is 9 a pound up to 15 if it actually has something on it LOL.
With what your showing and everyones comments I think paying a little premium for something most people though was long gone would not be hard. Just curious. Would be great to buy 50lbs of rock that actually had been down for a year or two to seed my 300lbs of ugly dried out rock from my old tank but after seeing the first pictures Im not sure its worth it, may just buy new rockand save me the 6 months.

liverock
06/29/2015, 06:21 AM
Going to be setting my tank back up after a 2 year break, had a full tank crash and could not get m self to start over at the time.
Anyways, thought you stated your rock was down for 6 months? if so is there any plans for 1 year rock or like 2 year rock? Decent live rock here in Ca is 9 a pound up to 15 if it actually has something on it LOL.
With what your showing and everyones comments I think paying a little premium for something most people though was long gone would not be hard. Just curious. Would be great to buy 50lbs of rock that actually had been down for a year or two to seed my 300lbs of ugly dried out rock from my old tank but after seeing the first pictures Im not sure its worth it, may just buy new rockand save me the 6 months.

I started this in 1984....and have had millions of pounds of rock in the water since 1993...see here

http://tbsaltwater.com/liverock/index.html

and here

http://tbsaltwater.com/testimonials/index.html
for what is available....

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

liverock
06/29/2015, 07:46 AM
Have thre been anh tests done on nutrients/chemicals/whatnot that leach from the rock when its ready to be put into the holding bay? http://loanwebfast.com/green/images/51.gifhttp://insuranceautocars.com/insurance/images/37.gif

here ya go

http://tbsaltwater.com/liverock/LiveRockStudy.pdf

smatter
06/29/2015, 11:53 AM
Less than 24 hours have elapsed since I submitted my order and my tank is aquascaped! I sneaked out of work for an "appointment" and zoomed to the airport, paid the freight, and took it home... easy peasy. My hasty aquascape doesn't look half bad. I overthink it when have unlimited time. I will snap some pics when I get back home and the dust is settled.

The rock came incredibly well packaged submerged in water. It is teeming with life. I like the shapes and this new rock is an aquascapers dream. It stays put like Legos. The size is exactly what I asked for.

There were also some bonus gorgonians, polyps, and a sponge in there. Too bad I had to go back to work :(

Thanks Richard!

liverock
06/29/2015, 02:53 PM
Less than 24 hours have elapsed since I submitted my order and my tank is aquascaped! I sneaked out of work for an "appointment" and zoomed to the airport, paid the freight, and took it home... easy peasy. My hasty aquascape doesn't look half bad. I overthink it when have unlimited time. I will snap some pics when I get back home and the dust is settled.

The rock came incredibly well packaged submerged in water. It is teeming with life. I like the shapes and this new rock is an aquascapers dream. It stays put like Legos. The size is exactly what I asked for.

There were also some bonus gorgonians, polyps, and a sponge in there. Too bad I had to go back to work :(

Thanks Richard!

Thanks for the feedback!

Delta did great getting it there so fast....and now it is in Madison Wi.!!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

d2mini
06/29/2015, 03:09 PM
Less than 24 hours have elapsed since I submitted my order and my tank is aquascaped! I sneaked out of work for an "appointment" and zoomed to the airport, paid the freight, and took it home... easy peasy. My hasty aquascape doesn't look half bad. I overthink it when have unlimited time. I will snap some pics when I get back home and the dust is settled.

The rock came incredibly well packaged submerged in water. It is teeming with life. I like the shapes and this new rock is an aquascapers dream. It stays put like Legos. The size is exactly what I asked for.

There were also some bonus gorgonians, polyps, and a sponge in there. Too bad I had to go back to work :(

Thanks Richard!
I can't believe you went back to work. :lol:

PICS!

smatter
06/29/2015, 03:45 PM
I can't believe you went back to work. :lol:

PICS!

I know right? I'm on my way home right now. Public transportation seems exceptionally slow today knowing what awaits me at home.

crn005
06/29/2015, 05:24 PM
This is interesting. The biggest concern I would have is how difficult it is to stack. I'd like to see some pictures of structures made out of it.

CuzzA
06/29/2015, 06:41 PM
This is interesting. The biggest concern I would have is how difficult it is to stack. I'd like to see some pictures of structures made out of it.

Go to 1:06 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r6hRs_sxRUM

Hitch08
06/29/2015, 08:59 PM
I'm getting a 120 gallon tank set up. I've had about 100 pounds of rock in a couple of bins for several months now. The rock is cycled, but not "live". My plan was to get some real live rock. Long story short, it wasn't actually "live". I know, many of you have "been there, done that."

I'm very interested in this rock, but want to understand the costs. If I bought "The Package" 25, then I would get 50 lbs rock, 25 lbs sand, 25 hermits, 13 snails, 2 cukes, 1 star, 1 shrimp. The cost, without shipping, would be $319.00.

Since it would come in two shipments, and the minimum price for shipping is based on 100 pounds, I would pay another $180 for shipping. Total price would be ~ $499?

Thanks!

smatter
06/29/2015, 09:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxTGdre27A0

My videography skills are lacking. My apologies. All kinds of stuff is popping out of the rock. The BML 20K looks much less blue in person.

smatter
06/29/2015, 09:47 PM
321928

AugustWest
06/29/2015, 09:48 PM
Nice , how many pounds of rock is that?

smatter
06/29/2015, 09:56 PM
Thanks ;) it's eight pounds. I ordered ten. A two pound piece is downstairs with the bonus items in my holding tank.

liverock
06/30/2015, 06:10 AM
I'm getting a 120 gallon tank set up. I've had about 100 pounds of rock in a couple of bins for several months now. The rock is cycled, but not "live". My plan was to get some real live rock. Long story short, it wasn't actually "live". I know, many of you have "been there, done that."

I'm very interested in this rock, but want to understand the costs. If I bought "The Package" 25, then I would get 50 lbs rock, 25 lbs sand, 25 hermits, 13 snails, 2 cukes, 1 star, 1 shrimp. The cost, without shipping, would be $319.00.

Since it would come in two shipments, and the minimum price for shipping is based on 100 pounds, I would pay another $180 for shipping. Total price would be ~ $499?

Usually, yes two separate shipments...but with your 120...will be a piece of cake to add a 25 gallon Package all at once...I do that all the time for folks who have a large established tank and want to add the diversity of a smaller Package to it. So...one shipment....is what you are looking at!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :beer:

Thanks!

smatter
06/30/2015, 07:48 AM
The new tank has been endorsed by both my wife and daughter, and that's saying something because both of them view my hobby as more of a nuisance. They were saying things like "wow" and "natural looking" and were surprised that the rock was artificial.

I have found one bad thing about this rock: New corals will not go unnoticed in this tank.

liverock
06/30/2015, 08:49 AM
The new tank has been endorsed by both my wife and daughter, and that's saying something because both of them view my hobby as more of a nuisance. They were saying things like "wow" and "natural looking" and were surprised that the rock was artificial.

I have found one bad thing about this rock: New corals will not go unnoticed in this tank.

Well...now that they are looking at your tank, I would not be surprised if somehow one just appeared for you now! LOL

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :dance:

Hitch08
06/30/2015, 09:11 AM
Usually, yes two separate shipments...but with your 120...will be a piece of cake to add a 25 gallon Package all at once...I do that all the time for folks who have a large established tank and want to add the diversity of a smaller Package to it. So...one shipment....is what you are looking at!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com
Thanks for the reply.

Just to make sure, the 120 isn't established. I do have about 100 pounds of cycled rock in bins with heaters and pumps running. One shipment would be OK?

So tempting.

liverock
06/30/2015, 09:13 AM
Thanks for the reply.

Just to make sure, the 120 isn't established. I do have about 100 pounds of cycled rock in bins with heaters and pumps running. One shipment would be OK?

So tempting.

I would set the tank up with everything you are going to use....let it flow a week...than add the package...you will have no issues as you have such a large volume of water...

smatter
06/30/2015, 09:48 AM
Well...now that they are looking at your tank, I would not be surprised if somehow one just appeared for you now! LOL

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :dance:

You are right. All three of us can't fit in front of this little one.

Hitch08
06/30/2015, 10:54 AM
I would set the tank up with everything you are going to use....let it flow a week...than add the package...you will have no issues as you have such a large volume of water...

Thanks!

Devaji108
07/01/2015, 12:10 AM
Thanks ;) it's eight pounds. I ordered ten. A two pound piece is downstairs with the bonus items in my holding tank.

I thought 100lbs was the min order for air fright?

liverock
07/01/2015, 06:01 AM
I thought 100lbs was the min order for air fright?

There is no minimum order for live rock.........there is a minimum air freight charge from the airlines....

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/shipping.html


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510519


Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

smatter
07/01/2015, 08:10 AM
I thought 100lbs was the min order for air fright?

I only ended up paying $63 for the freight since it only weighed 25# with the water.

Totally worth it for this quality product.

toothybugs
07/01/2015, 10:12 AM
I only ended up paying $63 for the freight since it only weighed 25# with the water.

Totally worth it for this quality product.

Not that it's proportional, but same-day delivery for many pounds of weight at that price is dirt cheap compared to 50 bucks overnight for a coral shipment that might weigh a pound.

I can't wait for my tank to clear up so I can put my order in. Driving me crazy.

smatter
07/01/2015, 10:43 AM
Not that it's proportional, but same-day delivery for many pounds of weight at that price is dirt cheap compared to 50 bucks overnight for a coral shipment that might weigh a pound.

I can't wait for my tank to clear up so I can put my order in. Driving me crazy.

Agreed. It is crazy fast too. It left Florida at 1900 and was in my tank at 0900 the next morning.

Devaji108
07/01/2015, 11:24 AM
There is no minimum order for live rock.........there is a minimum air freight charge from the airlines....

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/shipping.html


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2510519


Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

yeah sorry about that...later after typing it and thinking about it realized my error :headwalls:

liverock
07/01/2015, 11:44 AM
yeah sorry about that...later after typing it and thinking about it realized my error :headwalls:

No worries...is a bit confusing...will rework that wording...soon as my web guys shows up..

sea ya:bounce3:

Bob 75 G
07/05/2015, 08:25 PM
I am ready to order my live rock from TBS but not sure if I should get the regular live rock or the 2.1 eco rock. I am a newbie and a little worried about what might be on the rock but I know I don't want the dull looking stuff at my LFS, what do you guys think?

silentscream
07/05/2015, 09:52 PM
I am ready to order my live rock from TBS but not sure if I should get the regular live rock or the 2.1 eco rock. I am a newbie and a little worried about what might be on the rock but I know I don't want the dull looking stuff at my LFS, what do you guys think?

Request both. Get the regular rock as part one of the package and request the new rock with part two. I happen to really like the older rock myself.

Devaji108
07/05/2015, 10:14 PM
^ now thats a great idea...if you do that plz share it with us. :)

liverock
07/10/2015, 03:34 PM
Nice day diving today...and the rock is amazing!!

Started out early

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000891.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000891.jpg.html)

Sun saying...Hello!

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000893.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000893.jpg.html)

Took a buddy of mine from Colorado to get him good and sunburned....

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000896.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000896.jpg.html)

Down he goes...

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000897.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000897.jpg.html)

And the Rock!

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000898.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000898.jpg.html)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000899.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000899.jpg.html)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000900.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000900.jpg.html)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000901.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000901.jpg.html)

In stock and ready for your tank!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin2::

dendrite
07/10/2015, 04:26 PM
Those last pictures are amazing. I haven't seen rock like that in 15 or 20 years or since they banned wild harvested Florida rock

ijnoj09
07/10/2015, 04:39 PM
Really amazing stuff. I'm in the process of planning out a new 75 Gallon build and was set on ordering the dry reef rock 2.1 but after seeing this thread, I think I'm going to order the rock from TB! The diversity on that rock is just outstanding.

PRSPLYR
07/10/2015, 06:30 PM
Welcome ijno! First post! I am trying to plan a build too, considering a 75 as well....

Devaji108
07/10/2015, 07:49 PM
wow that rock does look amazing! that is the 2:1 correct and not the older stuff. i know silly question. I am full of them, just making sure.

oh and why is your buddy using his emergency reg.? i once was renting gear and the main reg. was not working right before the dive after we wherein the water so i ended up using my emergency and everyone was looking at me like ***. a friend took some pic of me over an amazing reef and of course my reg stands out like a sore thumb...haha

anyway back to the rock! man that stuff is gonna look crazy in 6 more months. i mean it look amazing now but in another 6 months wow its gonna be off the took.

you better get another shipment in from walt. as this stuff gonna go fast I bet.

Devaji108
07/10/2015, 08:08 PM
they Richard or Cuzza how many # would you suggest for a 40br semi minimalist 2 to 3 island look?
cheers!

CuzzA
07/10/2015, 09:10 PM
I like to order a little extra to make sure I get a number of different shapes and sizes. For a minimalist scape I'd say 20-30 lbs. should be good. I would probably go 30 just to make sure I wasn't short of my goal.

Also, while not necessary, if you have some fellow reefers in your club or nearby you may want to see if someone or a group will share in the cost of shipping on a group order. This would also allow everyone to share in buying a few extra pounds so everyone is happy.

Richard is great with communication and customer service so if you mock up a little drawing with dimensions he'll be sure to get you what you want. While each piece of Eco rock is unique they do come in several similar shapes. Off the top of my head there are medium to large roundish rocks, small to medium holey rocks, branch type rocks for caves and shelf rocks.

d2mini
07/10/2015, 09:15 PM
I like to order a little extra to make sure I get a number of different shapes and sizes. For a minimalist scape I'd say 20-30 lbs. should be good. I would probably go 30 just to make sure I wasn't short of my goal.

Also, while not necessary, if you have some fellow reefers in your club or nearby you may want to see if someone or a group will share in the cost of shipping on a group order. This would also allow everyone to share in buying a few extra pounds so everyone is happy.

Richard is great with communication and customer service so if you mock up a little drawing with dimensions he'll be sure to get you what you want. While each piece of Eco rock is unique they do come in several similar shapes. Off the top of my head there are medium to large roundish rocks, small to medium holey rocks, branch type rocks for caves and shelf rocks.

+1 to all of that.
And I might even go 40 lbs with the 2.1 rock because it's lighter than the older stuff, and at that weight, we're not talking a big diff. Use the extra in your sump, frag tank, etc or sell it to a local reefer.

ijnoj09
07/10/2015, 09:16 PM
Welcome ijno! First post! I am trying to plan a build too, considering a 75 as well....


Thanks! been out of the hobby for almost 10 years... eager to get back in.

CuzzA
07/10/2015, 09:18 PM
I have to say, it is truly amazing how quick life is attaching on to this rock. Absolutely mind blowing. And if anyone is hesitant on buying this live rock over dry rock because of price a good way to look at it is you are not only buying the reef structure, but you're also buying a superior biological filter that cannot be found anywhere else, especially not in the form of any mechanical filtration. We willingly spend damn near a thousand dollars if not more for a skimmer and I'd be willing to bet if we did a test and compared the filtration capabilities of the rock vs a quality skimmer, the rock would clean the water much faster and more effectively.

Devaji108
07/11/2015, 10:14 AM
I like to order a little extra to make sure I get a number of different shapes and sizes. For a minimalist scape I'd say 20-30 lbs. should be good. I would probably go 30 just to make sure I wasn't short of my goal.

Also, while not necessary, if you have some fellow reefers in your club or nearby you may want to see if someone or a group will share in the cost of shipping on a group order. This would also allow everyone to share in buying a few extra pounds so everyone is happy.

Richard is great with communication and customer service so if you mock up a little drawing with dimensions he'll be sure to get you what you want. While each piece of Eco rock is unique they do come in several similar shapes. Off the top of my head there are medium to large roundish rocks, small to medium holey rocks, branch type rocks for caves and shelf rocks.

well there is no reef club here in WY. I only hear of a few reefers in the whole state and it a big one too. but that is a good idea one I have thought about often.

yeah 30-40# sounds right.

any chance we could get some pics from your next collection dive of the branch and shelfs?

Ron Reefman
07/11/2015, 10:58 AM
liverock, I have a question.

I'd like to try some of your v2.1 rock. I have a 180g mixed reef and 75g fowlr that share a 150g sump/ refugium/DSB. It was been up and running for just over 5 years (I've been in the hobby about 15yrs). I have some sponges that grow under rocks, and a flame scallop that has been in the tank for several years along with a yellow sea cucumber from the Keys. I feed a wide variety of foods almost every day and I haven't seen any ammonia/nitrate rise in 4 years... even when a fish dies behind the rocks where I can't get to it! But then I have 300 pounds or more of Live Rock between the 2 tanks and the sump. I even have gorgonians that I've found at the water's edge after a storm in the Gulf and they do just fine. I even found a large (3" to 4" across it's carapace!) stone crab in my Refugium that probably came home as a tiny crab with something from the Keys like a rock/sponge with a colony of zoas on it or hiding in a stone flower anemone. Anyway, my concern is this, with the amount of life that is on your rock, how much of it should survive long term? I ask because on occasion I've added a sponge (never out of the water), a scallop or barnacle from the Gulf or the Keys and they don't do well long term (long term being 3 to 6 months).

BTW, I'm just down I-75 from you in Cape Coral so I'd love to stop by and pick up a few things.

liverock
07/11/2015, 11:06 AM
liverock, I have a question.

I'd like to try some of your v2.1 rock. I have a 180g mixed reef and 75g fowlr that share a 150g sump/ refugium/DSB. It was been up and running for just over 5 years (I've been in the hobby about 15yrs). I have some sponges that grow under rocks, and a flame scallop that has been in the tank for several years along with a yellow sea cucumber from the Keys. I feed a wide variety of foods almost every day and I haven't seen any ammonia/nitrate rise in 4 years... even when a fish dies behind the rocks where I can't get to it! But then I have 300 pounds or more of Live Rock between the 2 tanks and the sump. I even have gorgonians that I've found at the water's edge after a storm in the Gulf and they do just fine. I even found a large (3" to 4" across it's carapace!) stone crab in my Refugium that probably came home as a tiny crab with something from the Keys like a rock/sponge with a colony of zoas on it or hiding in a stone flower anemone. Anyway, my concern is this, with the amount of life that is on your rock, how much of it should survive long term? I ask because on occasion I've added a sponge (never out of the water), a scallop or barnacle from the Gulf or the Keys and they don't do well long term (long term being 3 to 6 months).

BTW, I'm just down I-75 from you in Cape Coral so I'd love to stop by and pick up a few things.

Hiya

nothing lives forever..... LOL...is the ocean...everything eats everything else....I would enjoy it while I had it!

And in state of Florida is a piece of cake...fed ex right to your door...is overnight service and only about .50 a pound to ship...cost a lot less that gas!

Sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :rollface::rollface::rollface:

liverock
07/11/2015, 11:07 AM
well there is no reef club here in WY. I only hear of a few reefers in the whole state and it a big one too. but that is a good idea one I have thought about often.

yeah 30-40# sounds right.

any chance we could get some pics from your next collection dive of the branch and shelfs?

Will be some new underwater video soon as I can get Cuzza certified...

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

Devaji108
07/11/2015, 11:23 AM
^ nice! come on cuzza whats the hold up..haha

Hey Richard is the last pic you posted what would you say the weight of those rock would be?

liverock
07/11/2015, 11:27 AM
^ nice! come on cuzza whats the hold up..haha

Hey Richard is the last pic you posted what would you say the weight of those rock would be?

Little late...is at the airport going to Nashville Tn.

right now....lol.....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin2::spin2::spin2:

Devaji108
07/11/2015, 11:59 AM
any guesses?

liverock
07/11/2015, 01:16 PM
any guesses?

Every rock is different size...and weight....5#?

but I don't guess on weights...when I pack the rock it is weighed on a digital scale....then saltwater is added to the box for shipping...

Devaji108
07/11/2015, 03:07 PM
yeah totally understand. was just getting an idea of how heavy it is so I know how much to order :)

liverock
07/11/2015, 03:47 PM
yeah totally understand. was just getting an idea of how heavy it is so I know how much to order :)

LOl....new stuff to me also...but it is like 3/4 the weight of any other rock I have used for aquaculture.....or less..is truly a game changer in the live rock industry.

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :spin1::spin1::spin1:

CuzzA
07/12/2015, 06:08 AM
I couldn't wrap up my certification over the July 4th weekend. Family in town and too much going on to do my open water dives which are a few hours north of me at a couple freshwater springs here in Florida. Not to mention I wasn't going to miss bombing the sky for my son.

My 4 dives are scheduled for August 1st and 2nd. Then I'll have my c-card and will get some great video. Looking for good white and actinic flashlights too so we can really see the colors underwater. :)


The two springs I'll be diving.
http://www.divebluegrotto.com

http://www.devilsden.com

cambo123
07/12/2015, 11:12 AM
Richard, I am thinking of switching my tank over to this stuff after I move. What is the turnaround time between ordering and delivery?

Thanks

liverock
07/12/2015, 11:14 AM
Richard, I am thinking of switching my tank over to this stuff after I move. What is the turnaround time between ordering and delivery?

Thanks

I have it in stock...ready to fly!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

LunchingFriar
07/12/2015, 11:57 AM
I had an opportunity to see some of the dry Walt Smith 2.1 rock about a month ago...it looks good, and it's very light for its size. So when I heard TBS was using it in their aquaculture operation and saw the pictures, I knew I had to have it. After lurking in this thread for a couple of weeks, on Friday I ordered the 20-gallon version of the Package with the new 2.1 rock. Richard shipped it Saturday shortly before noon, and I picked it up at the airport at 3:30 Saturday afternoon. It was in my tank Saturday evening.

The rock is awesome. Here are some photos I took with my phone today:

323037

Here's a closeup of the barnacles that cover all of the rocks:
323038

Here's an urchin that came along for the ride:
323039

Richard also threw in a couple of freebies...a flower anemone,
323040

four sponges and a gorgonian. (You can only see one of the sponges and part of the gorgonian in this photo.)
323041

I'm very happy with everything so far.

Devaji108
07/12/2015, 12:21 PM
^ nice!

and cuzza I totally understand just giving ya a hard time!


Man this rock is going to be off the hook in a few more months to bad I need some now...

Lonelyreef
07/12/2015, 01:03 PM
The problem with rock like this is it enevitably will house pests. It's not bad for say a softy or maybe even Lps or zoo tank but there's so many pests in brute how can u be sure

CuzzA
07/12/2015, 01:09 PM
The problem with rock like this is it enevitably will house pests. It's not bad for say a softy or maybe even Lps or zoo tank but there's so many pests in brute how can u be sure


Is this from your personal experience or just conjecture? The pests you pick up from your LFS or fellow reefers are far more detrimental than Gulf live rock. You're not going to get Acro eating flatworms or red bugs or Montipora eating nudibranchs from this rock. From your post it sounds like you're implying that rock is no good for an SPS tank. However no sps pests are present on the rock as there are no acros or montis growing on the rock in the gulf off Tampa Bay.

Furthermore there are plenty of sps tanks using this rock so I'm a little confused by this post.

CuzzA
07/12/2015, 01:14 PM
^ nice!

and cuzza I totally understand just giving ya a hard time!


Man this rock is going to be off the hook in a few more months to bad I need some now...


No worries. ;)

cambo123
07/12/2015, 05:18 PM
I have it in stock...ready to fly!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

Great, I need to get the move dates for my tank locked down but once I know what is happening I will put an order in. Hoping a week from Wednesday is the day!

Thanks

CCReefCC
07/12/2015, 06:13 PM
Wow....I want some....can it safely ship to the northeast?

liverock
07/12/2015, 06:39 PM
Wow....I want some....can it safely ship to the northeast?

Piece of cake!..what airport?....the rock is packed under water....like it never left my holding tanks here...when it gets to you..happy and alive....
Richard tbs
www.tbsaltwater.com

dingodan87
07/13/2015, 08:39 PM
Hey Richard. I live in Vancouver Canada is there a way for me to get the rock shipped there? Also my tank is currently cycling do I need to wait for it to be fully established to support the life that comes with these rocks?

Lonelyreef
07/13/2015, 09:06 PM
Is this from your personal experience or just conjecture? The pests you pick up from your LFS or fellow reefers are far more detrimental than Gulf live rock. You're not going to get Acro eating flatworms or red bugs or Montipora eating nudibranchs from this rock. From your post it sounds like you're implying that rock is no good for an SPS tank. However no sps pests are present on the rock as there are no acros or montis growing on the rock in the gulf off Tampa Bay.

Furthermore there are plenty of sps tanks using this rock so I'm a little confused by this post.

I know people that have ordered live rock from the gulf and it does in fact have pests. Pests also come in the form of evasive corals such as Xenia there's also evasive sponges, anthropods, Copepods, mantis shrimp while beautiful are also pests because they will eat anything in a tank.

Also evasive algae there's quite a lot of things in the gulf. Not only have I've seen people and personally seen this kinda rock but I also grew up in keylargo Florida and swam and snorkel most of my life and catch all kinds of little things in empty jugs from underneath rock ledges.

If your convinced this rock has no pests than offer it as a 100% pest free. It's not an attack on you or this rock but I know the truths and I hate to see unsuspecting people buy rock than get a pest and have it ruin there experience

Aframomum
07/13/2015, 09:17 PM
CuzzA,

Your going to love diving Blue Grotto! Don't know about DD as I haven't dove it, may be a little too claustrophobic for me. :) Good luck and study up on those dive tables (even though your computer does all the computing for you - just need it for the test)! :lmao:

Mark

CuzzA
07/13/2015, 10:09 PM
I know people that have ordered live rock from the gulf and it does in fact have pests. Pests also come in the form of evasive corals such as Xenia there's also evasive sponges, anthropods, Copepods, mantis shrimp while beautiful are also pests because they will eat anything in a tank.

Also evasive algae there's quite a lot of things in the gulf. Not only have I've seen people and personally seen this kinda rock but I also grew up in keylargo Florida and swam and snorkel most of my life and catch all kinds of little things in empty jugs from underneath rock ledges.

If your convinced this rock has no pests than offer it as a 100% pest free. It's not an attack on you or this rock but I know the truths and I hate to see unsuspecting people buy rock than get a pest and have it ruin there experience

It's not my rock or my company. I've just been helping out. To each his own. I've done it both ways. Dry and live. Both can be successful. My point is that all of the pests that come from the waters off of Tampa Bay are easily remedied. The marine environment is much different in our waters compared to South Florida. For example, we don't have a ton of Stoney corals. It gets too cold and the water isn't clear enough. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the big pests we really need to worry about aren't coming from this rock. They're coming from the LFS or fellow reefers. Remember the majority of corals in the trade are from the Pacific and are susceptible to Pacific pests.

CuzzA,

Your going to love diving Blue Grotto! Don't know about DD as I haven't dove it, may be a little too claustrophobic for me. :) Good luck and study up on those dive tables (even though your computer does all the computing for you - just need it for the test)! :lmao:

Mark

Thanks, I'm really looking forward to it. Anxious is an understatement. I've definitely been studying. The past few days I've been reviewing the dive tables. I recently signed up on scubaboard.com too. Trying to research as much as possible. :)

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 12:16 AM
It's not my rock or my company. I've just been helping out. To each his own. I've done it both ways. Dry and live. Both can be successful. My point is that all of the pests that come from the waters off of Tampa Bay are easily remedied. The marine environment is much different in our waters compared to South Florida. For example, we don't have a ton of Stoney corals. It gets too cold and the water isn't clear enough. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the big pests we really need to worry about aren't coming from this rock. They're coming from the LFS or fellow reefers. Remember the majority of corals in the trade are from the Pacific and are susceptible to Pacific pests.

"Several species of Caulerpa are found along with fleshy red and brown turf alga." - that is the last thing I want in my tank and not always "easily remedied. I don't want to have to remedy those things.

Not to mention the plethora of people that claim of having to deal with gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, etc. Both can hide and wreak havoc in a system for a long time. What about flatworms and parasites? Can you gaurantee there are no ich stages on the rock or in the water?

I want a controlled ideal environment to grow the corals I pick. I guess it's just whether you want your own reef, or part of the ocean.

I agree that tons of lfs sell bogus live rock, but plenty don't. They sell live rock that's been in their massive healthy display tanks or sumps. I don't see how you could possibly argue that getting live rock from the ocean is safer than from a reliable lfs or reefer.

If I buy live rock from a reefer/lfs who doesn't have caulerpa/turf algae/gorilla crabs/parasites in there tank because they qt and treat religiously before stocking, I know I won't either. You just don't get that assurance with rock from the ocean.

Trust me, I understand that it's "true live rock" and really is like having part of the ocean in your home, but I (and majority of reefers I've spoken with) want success in growing corals and fish that we pick in an environment we control. I guess it's just two different things. IMO you can't say one is better than the other for that reason. It is definitely cool though.

johnike
07/14/2015, 03:54 AM
I know people that have ordered live rock from the gulf and it does in fact have pests. Pests also come in the form of evasive corals such as Xenia there's also evasive sponges, anthropods, Copepods, mantis shrimp while beautiful are also pests because they will eat anything in a tank.

Also evasive algae there's quite a lot of things in the gulf. Not only have I've seen people and personally seen this kinda rock but I also grew up in keylargo Florida and swam and snorkel most of my life and catch all kinds of little things in empty jugs from underneath rock ledges.

If your convinced this rock has no pests than offer it as a 100% pest free. It's not an attack on you or this rock but I know the truths and I hate to see unsuspecting people buy rock than get a pest and have it ruin there experience

Invasive.
;)

alton
07/14/2015, 05:48 AM
When I set up wife's 40 gallon I went with dead rock and sand, it took months to start looking half way decent and yet after two years I still had issues with junk. It doesn't matter how well you dip a coral or a rock, eggs/ aptaisia find a way. Just nip it in the rear when it happens. If I were starting over I would rather look at nice rock for a couple months picking out what I didn't want before adding anything new, than waiting several months looking at white rocks. But to each there own.

CuzzA
07/14/2015, 05:58 AM
"Several species of Caulerpa are found along with fleshy red and brown turf alga." - that is the last thing I want in my tank and not always "easily remedied. I don't want to have to remedy those things.

Fair enough. But in most low nutrient systems, which is what most reefers strive for, algae doesn't do so well. In my experience I've tried to grow some desirable algaes and they just die off. Furthermore many macro algae species are dinner for a lot of fish and invert species. Urchins being one of them. Algae is no match for the urchins in my system. And tangs will make quick work of algae too.

Not to mention the plethora of people that claim of having to deal with gorilla crabs, mantis shrimp, etc. Both can hide and wreak havoc in a system for a long time. What about flatworms and parasites? Can you gaurantee there are no ich stages on the rock or in the water?

Yep, you're likely going to get gorilla and stone crabs and maybe some mantis shrimp. They are pretty easy to catch. Especially before they get to a size that would cause any trouble. No one can make any guarantees regarding ich. But with that logic unless you're qting everything wet for 72 days you're opening up the door for that possibility. That includes qting crabs, snails, pods, refugium algaes like cheato, dragons breath, and mangroves, rock, sand, corals, natural seawater if you're collecting it and of course fish for 72 days. If one is so inclined to do that, good for them. I've yet to hear a report of ich presenting itself from gulf live rock so I have to believe that statement is just conjecture.

I want a controlled ideal environment to grow the corals I pick. I guess it's just whether you want your own reef, or part of the ocean.

The ideal closed environment to grow corals is the environment that most closely replicates the natural ocean of the reefs. This statement implys you can't have "your own reef" if you use live rock and is very confusing. A reef is part of the ocean. We're talking about rock with some life on it; predominately sponges, barnacles, turnicates, pods and bacteria. The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank. If you know how to grow corals they will do just fine and you can build your reef however you want whether it's dry or live rock. It makes no difference. The corals will grow.

I agree that tons of lfs sell bogus live rock, but plenty don't. They sell live rock that's been in their massive healthy display tanks or sumps. I don't see how you could possibly argue that getting live rock from the ocean is safer than from a reliable lfs or reefer.

I never argued live rock from the ocean is "safer". My argument was the "majority" of rock purchased from a LFS is grossly overpriced as they simply buy dry rock for a few cents per pound, throw it in a saltwater vat until it's not white anymore and sell it for $7/ pound. Do yourself a favor and just buy dry rock and in a couple months it will won't be white anymore.

If I buy live rock from a reefer/lfs who doesn't have caulerpa/turf algae/gorilla crabs/parasites in there tank because they qt and treat religiously before stocking, I know I won't either. You just don't get that assurance with rock from the ocean.

IMO, it's bad practice to rely on anyone but yourself when it comes to qt. Especially since ich can still be present, yet suppressed in a system with healthy fish. Same goes for corals. I've picked up frags from fellow reefers whose systems looked amazing and they thought they didn't have any pest, yet after qting their corals I've discovered AEFW and/or bugs. The bottom line is it's the individuals responsibility to qt.

Trust me, I understand that it's "true live rock" and really is like having part of the ocean in your home, but I (and majority of reefers I've spoken with) want success in growing corals and fish that we pick in an environment we control. I guess it's just two different things. IMO you can't say one is better than the other for that reason. It is definitely cool though.

In this statement you're implying that a reef with true live rock will not have success. Which is so far from the truth. As I stated, dry or live can both lead to success. Let's also not forget most people seed their dry rock with live rock. And I'm speaking from experience of both. As I've grown in this hobby, met with experienced reefers who have been doing this for decades and had this same discussion, my negative feelings against live rock have changed. I once was in the dry rock camp. Mainly because of the over exaggeration and fear people put into new hobbyist about pests. I've since learned these fears were pretty much unfounded when it came to rock and the true threat to my tank comes from trading and buying corals and fish from the LFS and fellow reefers. Again, there are two things I don't want in my tank and that is ich and AEFW. Which unfortunately are present in so many systems. Most of everything else can be remedied. As far as the majority of reefers you've spoken to that are using dry rock, I suspect for most it's a cost issue and not a pest issue. There are plenty of seasoned reefers on RC who use real live rock and have very successful systems. The original poster of this thread being one of them. And PaulB keeps coming to mind as well since every year he collects stuff from the ocean and throws it right in his tank.

But again, to each his own. I'm not arguing dry vs live. I'm arguing live being detrimental to a system is grossly exaggerated and often unfounded with conjecture by people who've never used it. Many will argue dry is the only way to go and bash live rock, meanwhile they've never even seen a piece of true love rock let alone put it in their tank. ;)

liverock
07/14/2015, 06:40 AM
Hey Richard. I live in Vancouver Canada is there a way for me to get the rock shipped there? Also my tank is currently cycling do I need to wait for it to be fully established to support the life that comes with these rocks?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2504743&highlight=driving+rock+to+canada

And yes...wait until the tank is stable.....then you are ready to rock!

Like Kross whose Package I shipped yesterday...... http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23870615#post23870615 and by next week this time we will be sending part two of the Package http://tbsaltwater.com/thepackage/index.html

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 11:11 AM
Fair enough. But in most low nutrient systems, which is what most reefers strive for, algae doesn't do so well. In my experience I've tried to grow some desirable algaes and they just die off. Furthermore many macro algae species are dinner for a lot of fish and invert species. Urchins being one of them. Algae is no match for the urchins in my system. And tangs will make quick work of algae too.



Yep, you're likely going to get gorilla and stone crabs and maybe some mantis shrimp. They are pretty easy to catch. Especially before they get to a size that would cause any trouble. No one can make any guarantees regarding ich. But with that logic unless you're qting everything wet for 72 days you're opening up the door for that possibility. That includes qting crabs, snails, pods, refugium algaes like cheato, dragons breath, and mangroves, rock, sand, corals, natural seawater if you're collecting it and of course fish for 72 days. If one is so inclined to do that, good for them. I've yet to hear a report of ich presenting itself from gulf live rock so I have to believe that statement is just conjecture.



The ideal closed environment to grow corals is the environment that most closely replicates the natural ocean of the reefs. This statement implys you can't have "your own reef" if you use live rock and is very confusing. A reef is part of the ocean. We're talking about rock with some life on it; predominately sponges, barnacles, turnicates, pods and bacteria. The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank. If you know how to grow corals they will do just fine and you can build your reef however you want whether it's dry or live rock. It makes no difference. The corals will grow.



I never argued live rock from the ocean is "safer". My argument was the "majority" of rock purchased from a LFS is grossly overpriced as they simply buy dry rock for a few cents per pound, throw it in a saltwater vat until it's not white anymore and sell it for $7/ pound. Do yourself a favor and just buy dry rock and in a couple months it will won't be white anymore.



IMO, it's bad practice to rely on anyone but yourself when it comes to qt. Especially since ich can still be present, yet suppressed in a system with healthy fish. Same goes for corals. I've picked up frags from fellow reefers whose systems looked amazing and they thought they didn't have any pest, yet after qting their corals I've discovered AEFW and/or bugs. The bottom line is it's the individuals responsibility to qt.



In this statement you're implying that a reef with true live rock will not have success. Which is so far from the truth. As I stated, dry or live can both lead to success. Let's also not forget most people seed their dry rock with live rock. And I'm speaking from experience of both. As I've grown in this hobby, met with experienced reefers who have been doing this for decades and had this same discussion, my negative feelings against live rock have changed. I once was in the dry rock camp. Mainly because of the over exaggeration and fear people put into new hobbyist about pests. I've since learned these fears were pretty much unfounded when it came to rock and the true threat to my tank comes from trading and buying corals and fish from the LFS and fellow reefers. Again, there are two things I don't want in my tank and that is ich and AEFW. Which unfortunately are present in so many systems. Most of everything else can be remedied. As far as the majority of reefers you've spoken to that are using dry rock, I suspect for most it's a cost issue and not a pest issue. There are plenty of seasoned reefers on RC who use real live rock and have very successful systems. The original poster of this thread being one of them. And PaulB keeps coming to mind as well since every year he collects stuff from the ocean and throws it right in his tank.

But again, to each his own. I'm not arguing dry vs live. I'm arguing live being detrimental to a system is grossly exaggerated and often unfounded with conjecture by people who've never used it. Many will argue dry is the only way to go and bash live rock, meanwhile they've never even seen a piece of true love rock let alone put it in their tank. ;)

Well obviously there is no way I'm going to comment on every sentence of your 10 page manifesto there. I actually forgot what thread I was on by the time i finished reading.

Why would I want to have to deal with any of those things if I didn't have to. That's the point. I'm not interested in getting some random stuff attached that I don't need and probably some stuff I don't want. Whether or not they are easily remedied (your opinion) is irrelevant.

Dry rock eliminates all that risk, live rock from a successful system of a reliable reefer or lfs is safer than just pulling one out of the ocean.

Like I said before, I guess it just depends what your looking to get out of it. Bacteria, or a whole slew of other random things. Most people just buy it for the bacteria. Like you said, "The rock is simply the filtration and structure of a reef tank" so why would I get it for anything else?

CuzzA
07/14/2015, 11:58 AM
Then don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. This thread is about real man made live rock from the ocean. The debate of live vs dry has been beat like a dead horse. Actually it's been beat by dead horses beating each other while holding filter socks. :lmao: There's plenty of threads out there about dry rock. Although there's not much to talk about in regards to dead dry rock. ;)

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 12:53 PM
Then don't buy it. Makes no difference to me. This thread is about real man made live rock from the ocean. The debate of live vs dry has been beat like a dead horse. Actually it's been beat by dead horses beating each other while holding filter socks. :lmao: There's plenty of threads out there about dry rock. Although there's not much to talk about in regards to dead dry rock. ;)

I may down the road for some application, because like I said before it's really cool and chalk full of life. That's just not something I want in my reef tanks.

IMO it's a good thing that there is not much to talk about in regards to dry rock, but I'm certainly not one to facilitate the abuse of dead animals by other dead animals, especially with an innocent piece of aquarium equipment like a filter sock [emoji6]

sirreal63
07/14/2015, 01:18 PM
That's just not something I want in my reef tanks.


I would suggest not adding anything to your tank then. Every coral you add has the possibility of introducing hitch hikers and invasive things to your tank. I have gone both ways, good quality live rock and dead, dry rock. Nothing adds the variety of life to your tank like good quality live rock does. You may get a little bad, but you also get a plethora of good, most of which you cannot add any other way.

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 02:31 PM
Two different things your talking about there. First:

I would suggest not adding anything to your tank then. Every coral you add has the possibility of introducing hitch hikers and invasive things to your tank.

That's a ridiculous suggestion. I easily qt, dip, and treat anything that comes in on corals. Next:

I have gone both ways, good quality live rock and dead, dry rock. Nothing adds the variety of life to your tank like good quality live rock does. You may get a little bad, but you also get a plethora of good, most of which you cannot add any other way.

I have never debated the amount of life or diversity. In fact I just said "cool and chalk full of life". I just don't need or want any of the "good" that I can't add any other way. Pretty simple.

d2mini
07/14/2015, 02:43 PM
The benefit of truly live rock like this is just lost on some people and there is no point in trying to convince them otherwise.
It's just one of those things were until you experience it, you just won't get it.

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 02:46 PM
The benefit of truly live rock like this is just lost on some people and there is no point in trying to convince them otherwise.
It's just one of those things were until you experience it, you just won't get it.

You know it's funny I hear that all the time but I'd love some actual concrete reasons why you think it's so much better. It's not, it's just different. I'm certainly open to changing my mind, it's just when all people say is "you get more life" or "more diversity" or some "good hitchikers" doesn't mean it's better. Better how, in what ways, for what purpose?

I think it's super cool, just not better. Btw, I've used live rock before and I still didn't get it [emoji6]

saf1
07/14/2015, 02:56 PM
Regarding post #113 / dive pictures. That must be like diving in bath water...

Out here in Cali its cold. Monterey diving is some of the best (opinion) in the world that I've seen to date but boy is it cold compared to what you guys have. 60'ish in the summer at surface but still 49 - 54 at depth. Better visibility of course is in the winter months so surface temp is colder :(

You guys are in shorts / t-shirt and I'm in 7 mil body + 3 mil chest heater + 3 mil hood, gloves, and boots ;) Oh, forgot to add the extra weight due to layers of neoprene which is about 28 - 32 lbs. depending on how good I am on my body weight :)

Have to say just a wee bit jelly of your day job (although I can't say kudo's enough for what you do and risk from a small business point of view - and that is what living in the U.S. is all about).

sirreal63
07/14/2015, 03:01 PM
You will be amazed at how things get into your tank that you did not want there. Even inverts can bring them in, and many spores can remain dormant for a long period of time before conditions are favorable then spring into life. Unfortunately you cannot dip for everything and the only advice I would want to give you is if you strive to keep stuff out of your tank, do not ever put a frag plug into your tank. It is amazing how much stuff can hide and survive on a frag plug. Remove all corals from their plugs.

liverock
07/14/2015, 03:03 PM
Trust me I know...my first dive was Point Arena in the winter time....climb down the cliff...and I forgot my booties...can you say purple ankles....second was Mo bay right off the beach...was certified in 1968..in Sacto....and trust me I wait all year for summer diving in jeans...as the water here can get to 51 in the winter time..full 6mil suit...40 pounds weight...winter is the pits....but the water is 88 right now!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com:lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

Regarding post #113 / dive pictures. That must be like diving in bath water...

Out here in Cali its cold. Monterey diving is some of the best (opinion) in the world that I've seen to date but boy is it cold compared to what you guys have. 60'ish in the summer at surface but still 49 - 54 at depth. Better visibility of course is in the winter months so surface temp is colder :(

You guys are in shorts / t-shirt and I'm in 7 mil body + 3 mil chest heater + 3 mil hood, gloves, and boots ;) Oh, forgot to add the extra weight due to layers of neoprene which is about 28 - 32 lbs. depending on how good I am on my body weight :)

Have to say just a wee bit jelly of your day job (although I can't say kudo's enough for what you do and risk from a small business point of view - and that is what living in the U.S. is all about).

Patchmty
07/14/2015, 03:16 PM
Don't feed the troll

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 03:45 PM
You will be amazed at how things get into your tank that you did not want there. Even inverts can bring them in, and many spores can remain dormant for a long period of time before conditions are favorable then spring into life. Unfortunately you cannot dip for everything and the only advice I would want to give you is if you strive to keep stuff out of your tank, do not ever put a frag plug into your tank. It is amazing how much stuff can hide and survive on a frag plug. Remove all corals from their plugs.

I QT everything including inverts. And yes I remove frag plugs. You can dip/medicate/isolate and die out anything im concerned with. I am familiar with all stages of parasites/pests etc and how to eradicate them. Thanks for the tip though [emoji6]

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 03:47 PM
Don't feed the troll
You are clearly of a different generation and confused as to what a troll actually is. I thought it was funny however [emoji106]. I am not a troll, however this has now gotten too far away from the main discussion so I now digress. Enjoy!

BTW, very cool live rock OP! I too am jealous of your gig. Good luck to you.

billsreef
07/14/2015, 04:48 PM
The benefit of truly live rock like this is just lost on some people and there is no point in trying to convince them otherwise.
It's just one of those things were until you experience it, you just won't get it.
X 2

I remember the days before live rock. I also remember collecting my first LR in the Keys on vacation back in the 80's when it was legal. Ever since, I have been a die hard LR fan, the more the merrier. Quite frankly the most stable and successful tanks I've ever run have been all LR for the structure. Whether it comes from the LFS, another hobbyist, a wholesaler, or direct from someone like Richard, it all came from the ocean originally. Can undesirable hitchhikers come from LR? Of course. They also come from fish and corals, basically anything wet you add. There are easy ways to deal with those hitchhikers, especially when starting with just the LR when setting up a new tank... the prime time for using LR.

billsreef
07/14/2015, 04:52 PM
Regarding post #113 / dive pictures. That must be like diving in bath water...

Out here in Cali its cold. Monterey diving is some of the best (opinion) in the world that I've seen to date but boy is it cold compared to what you guys have. 60'ish in the summer at surface but still 49 - 54 at depth. Better visibility of course is in the winter months so surface temp is colder :(

You guys are in shorts / t-shirt and I'm in 7 mil body + 3 mil chest heater + 3 mil hood, gloves, and boots ;) Oh, forgot to add the extra weight due to layers of neoprene which is about 28 - 32 lbs. depending on how good I am on my body weight :)

Have to say just a wee bit jelly of your day job (although I can't say kudo's enough for what you do and risk from a small business point of view - and that is what living in the U.S. is all about).
I started out diving in the NE, I joke about how much weight I lost moving to Miami... don't need nearly as much lead here :D

Patchmty
07/14/2015, 04:57 PM
@BigJohnny here is the definition of troll as applied in my comment.

In*Internet slang, a*troll*(/ˈtroʊl/,*/ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,*extraneous, or*off-topic*messages in an online community (such as a*newsgroup, forum,*chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an*emotional*response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

And I'll leave at that or I might be considered a troll myself.

BigJohnny
07/14/2015, 05:24 PM
@BigJohnny here is the definition of troll as applied in my comment.

In*Internet slang, a*troll*(/ˈtroʊl/,*/ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,*extraneous, or*off-topic*messages in an online community (such as a*newsgroup, forum,*chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an*emotional*response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

And I'll leave at that or I might be considered a troll myself.

Yea exactly, I never posted

"inflammatory,*extraneous, or*off-topic*messages"

and certainly not

"with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an*emotional*response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."

Don't know how you interpreted it that way. Have a nice day!

CuzzA
07/14/2015, 07:05 PM
Back to the topic. Can anyone explain why life is attracted to this rock so much faster than harvested reef rock? I mean literally 10x as fast.

My understanding is Walt's rock is made of volcanic pumice and then held together buy some sort of epoxy/cement with an oxide coloring. I'm baffled why life would choose that surface over dead coral.

???

taricha
07/14/2015, 07:35 PM
Back to the topic. Can anyone explain why life is attracted to this rock so much faster than harvested reef rock? I mean literally 10x as fast.

My understanding is Walt's rock is made of volcanic pumice and then held together buy some sort of epoxy/cement with an oxide coloring. I'm baffled why life would choose that surface over dead coral.

???
Never owned it, so just guessing. If it is indeed faster, it doesn't seem likely it's due to the composition being "better" than reef rock but more likely the rock shape/structure being more inviting.

Guess #1 that the mechanism behind it is that more porous rock allows faster diffusion of nutrients from the exterior water to some depth within the rock. Lots of organisms should find that beneficial.

Guess #2 that the rock surface might be "rougher" on a small scale than reef rock which would provide more surface area interface between rock and water, and therefore more area for microscopic life to congregate, and therefore jumpstart the colonization process.

People who have experience with the rock can comment on whether either of those are plausibly true.

smatter
07/15/2015, 08:26 AM
High quality live rock is my favorite part of a reef tank because it is so "chock-full" of life. Using dry rock is like riding a fixed gear bike... no coasting. Or shaving with an electric razor. Or using a gas grill.

liverock
07/15/2015, 10:01 AM
Here we go...some rock going down to support the Atlantic hard coral project Permit #FKNMS-2014-181 at Florida International University.

This rock in conjunction with the corals supplied by CRF will result in the first all aqua cultured totally Eco-friendly reef tank with Walt Smiths 2.1 rock cultured in the Gulf of Mexico from my aquaculture site. Seems apropos that it will be at a Universities Marine Science center for students and the public to see.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000934.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000934.jpg.html)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000928.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000928.jpg.html)

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu86/liverock/P1000930.jpg (http://s636.photobucket.com/user/liverock/media/P1000930.jpg.html)

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

CuzzA
07/15/2015, 10:25 AM
Only a reefer would find those images gorgeous. :lmao:

d2mini
07/15/2015, 10:26 AM
Those pics make me rock...... ummm.... never mind. :p

KingTriton1
07/15/2015, 11:42 AM
I think many people on here become skeptical when they hear about this rock because most of the comments are from either locals or others that have a relationship with Richard.

Well from someone who has no direct ties with Richard all I can say is.... Wow. You guys weren't kidding this new rock really is that awesome. I just picked up my shipment from the airport (which I hate doing... The people at my airport are so lazy) and right when I opened the box I was amazed by how nice this rock was. Richard definitely exceeds all other suppliers when it comes to live rock. Glad he has allowed people in this industry to get true live rock and not just dead rock that has been cured at your LFS.

KingTriton1
07/15/2015, 11:49 AM
Please stop, im begging you. This is ridiculous. I stated from the get go and several times throughout that I didn't want debate.

It has nothing to do with disagreeing with me, you can disagree all you want, you've made that abundantly clear. So why are you still talking?

The purpose of this thread is for everyone to post their QT set ups and procedures. I said the same thing to someone who agreed with me.

You've posted your qt procedures, now sit back and observe for the benefit of everyone!

Why don't you start your own thread called "debating ich transfer on corals/inverts" if you want to continue? This is not the place for it yet you almost have the majority of posts on this thread.

BigJohnny why don't you follow your own advice and start your own thread called "dry vs live rock" if you want to continue? This is not the place for it yet you almost have the majority of post on this thread.

dingodan87
07/15/2015, 12:18 PM
I agree. People like you ruin forums! Why are you even on this thread if u don't use live rock??? I subscribed to this thread cuz I'm interested in the subject matter but am see nothing but flooding pointless and annoying posts

Devaji108
07/15/2015, 12:33 PM
Only a reefer would find those images gorgeous. :lmao:

HAHAHAHA I was kinda thinking the same!
us reefing nerds. can look at some rock and go ohhhh uoooooo ahhhhhh

billsreef
07/15/2015, 02:37 PM
Only a reefer would find those images gorgeous. :lmao:

Too true :D

Looking forward to seeing the rock in person tomorrow.

Thanks again Richard :wavehand:

BTW, if he gives me any more ideas, I'm going to need a bigger lab :lol:

BlueReefMan
07/15/2015, 06:12 PM
Hey I wonder how much carbon is deposited into the atmosphere in shipping the rocks halfway around the world? No reef impact? I guess it depends on how hard you look...

d2mini
07/15/2015, 07:09 PM
Hey I wonder how much carbon is deposited into the atmosphere in shipping the rocks halfway around the world? No reef impact? I guess it depends on how hard you look...

Seriously? You really want to go there... on your third post, even? :rolleyes:

CuzzA
07/15/2015, 08:09 PM
Seriously? You really want to go there... on your third post, even? :rolleyes:

Don't take the bait. Don't want to ruin a good thread. ;)

dingodan87
07/15/2015, 08:41 PM
How long do you people recommend I wait before getting these rocks if my tank is only on its second week of initial cycle. Don't want to lose any of the life that comes on these things

dingodan87
07/15/2015, 08:43 PM
Thinkin in terms of corals, sponges, molluscs etc

KingTriton1
07/15/2015, 09:24 PM
The rock comes with so much active bacteria that the ammonia level should be stabilized rather quickly. This is the benefit on having the rock shipped overnight in water. I'd get some rock now and if you start to see some ammonia creep in then preform a water change to lower it. I've never had any problems with preserving life on any of these rocks with a newly establish tank.

billsreef
07/16/2015, 03:00 PM
Rock arrived today. Definitely some very nice rock. All the previous comments about this 2.1 rock being light, porous and full of life are on the money. Tanks again for your generosity Ricard :beer:

Now for some cheesy cell phone pictures.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323374&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323375&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323376&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323377&stc=1&d=1437080378

Electrobes
07/16/2015, 03:05 PM
Man, I would have opted for this rock versus TBS' regular live rock, but unfortunately I needed a bigger size than what was available in 2.0 stock. I still love TBS' stuff, I just put my one piece in the tank yesterday! :)

dingodan87
07/16/2015, 08:02 PM
What's the difference between this and the regular tbs live rock? I didn't know there were different types how do I make sure I order the right stuff?

AugustWest
07/16/2015, 08:12 PM
What's the difference between this and the regular tbs live rock? I didn't know there were different types how do I make sure I order the right stuff?

Go to page 1 and have yourself a nice read ! Nice Pics too :)

Devaji108
07/16/2015, 08:52 PM
Rock arrived today. Definitely some very nice rock. All the previous comments about this 2.1 rock being light, porous and full of life are on the money. Tanks again for your generosity Ricard :beer:

Now for some cheesy cell phone pictures.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323374&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323375&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323376&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323377&stc=1&d=1437080378

looking good Bill,
thanks for the pics my friend!
:beer:

dingodan87
07/16/2015, 08:56 PM
I have. I'm wondering how to make sure I order the right stuff if there are different types. ie. What to ask for

AugustWest
07/16/2015, 09:04 PM
Oh, it's the Walt Smith 2.1 Live Rock

dingodan87
07/16/2015, 09:12 PM
Cool thanks waiting game sucks tanks only second week of cycle

liverock
07/17/2015, 07:00 PM
Rock arrived today. Definitely some very nice rock. All the previous comments about this 2.1 rock being light, porous and full of life are on the money. Tanks again for your generosity Ricard :beer:

Now for some cheesy cell phone pictures.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323374&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323375&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323376&stc=1&d=1437080378

http://reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=323377&stc=1&d=1437080378


Happy to help bill....the corals in Florida need all the help they can get....I remember 35 years ago...when stag horn and elk horn were every where...but now...gone....thanks to guys like you and Ken from CRF...things can get better...

Just glad to help.....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :beer:

CuzzA
07/17/2015, 07:28 PM
Happy to help bill....the corals in Florida need all the help they can get....I remember 35 years ago...when stag horn and elk horn were every where...but now...gone....thanks to guys like you and Ken from CRF...things can get better...

Just glad to help.....

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :beer:

:beer: to that!

fftfk
07/18/2015, 02:13 PM
I ordered my live rock on Thursday night at 11:00 PM, woke up to an email from Richard explaining it would be cheaper to ship it in to Midway vs O'Hare, and had the rock in my tank by 7:00 PM Friday. The rock is beautiful with tons of life all over it. I tried to capture of cell phone showing all the barnacles sticking their tongues (not sure if that is what you call them) into the water:
https://vimeo.com/133853362
And a photo of some sponges:
323545
10 out of 10...would buy again. I wish I had started with all TBS rock instead of starting with 80lbs of dry and 30 lbs of live rock from LFS.

Devaji108
07/18/2015, 11:10 PM
^ nice how about a video tour of the rock you got looks just amazing!

cambo123
07/19/2015, 12:35 PM
I put and order in for 40 lbs, will post picks upon arrival!!

AugustWest
07/19/2015, 01:15 PM
Going barebottom on a 93 Cube ( 30"x 30"x24" H ) so no need for " the package" .About how many pounds of the 2.1 Live Rock for more like a minimalist aquascape?

fftfk
07/19/2015, 01:45 PM
^ nice how about a video tour of the rock you got looks just amazing!


Sure - here are two videos. The first is the outside of the rock ( back of the wall). The second video is the inside of the rock (front of the wall). I tried to create an island wall if that makes sense. The tank is a 3 foot cube.

https://vimeo.com/133913011

https://vimeo.com/133913052

liverock
07/19/2015, 03:38 PM
Nice job...seems like the fish are real interested in the 2.1 rock!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

Spaced Cowboy
07/19/2015, 06:12 PM
I'm a previous customer of TBS, my old 240G was seeded by "The Package", and it was glorious. I loved that rock. It was literally teeming with life in every pore, but there were a couple of things I didn't like (in order of seriousness):

There are indeed *undesirable* hitchhikers. I never did get rid of one of the Mantis shrimps until the old tank was taken down. I got my fair share of gorilla crabs too. I found out that a 1W laser is a cool way to deal with Aiptasia :)
The rock I got was in fact a bit dense, it wasn't the porous holey type of rock, it was the solid, heavy type of rock.
I absolutely hated putting the rock into the tank. No matter what orientation I chose, there was going to be something dying because it'd be face down on the sand. Dammit, Richard!

I'm guessing [1] is still a problem, [2] is now solved using the new rock, and [3] is a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I have a new 400G tank being set up (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2454671) (the old inhabitants are in the shed awaiting their new home). I already have 300 lbs of new "live" sand and a number of rocks I want to re-use after power-washing them, but I'm going to probably "top up" with a 190-gallon package from TBS; using the new rock, of course :)

You don't get a much better recommendation than someone who comes back and spends a whole bunch of cash with you again. Way to go, Richard.

Simon

rkmcdon
07/19/2015, 07:15 PM
If I missed this, I apologize. I read the entire thread but didn't think about this until the end. Any pictures of the Live sand? Also it sounds like it is a variety of sea bed material rather than the more uniform sand for the LFS. I'm curious how big the pieces get in the LS. Reason i'm asking is i'm hoping to do a 180g next year and plan to do a 4-5" sand bed for a blue dot jawfish and i'm wondering if this sand would have enough variety for a jawfish to line its burrow. Also, would a standard sand bed calculator work to determine how much sand to order?

Great thread and I'm really liking what I'm reading about The Package.

Chibils
07/19/2015, 07:35 PM
Never owned it, so just guessing. If it is indeed faster, it doesn't seem likely it's due to the composition being "better" than reef rock but more likely the rock shape/structure being more inviting.

Guess #1 that the mechanism behind it is that more porous rock allows faster diffusion of nutrients from the exterior water to some depth within the rock. Lots of organisms should find that beneficial.

Guess #2 that the rock surface might be "rougher" on a small scale than reef rock which would provide more surface area interface between rock and water, and therefore more area for microscopic life to congregate, and therefore jumpstart the colonization process.

People who have experience with the rock can comment on whether either of those are plausibly true.
I'm gonna second Guess #2. Most rock has been eroded down to relative smoothness, and Walt's rock has not (even if it was never as porous/detailed as genuine rock.

dendrite
07/19/2015, 07:55 PM
A couple of observations about life being attracted to the Walt Smith rock. Since it is volcanic in origin then the rock is laced with microscopic pores which are perfect for huge populations of aerobic and anaerobic bacteria feeding the next higher levels on the food chain. There is also I'm sure a very high level of sulfur which also feeds the microfauna, much like life surrounding deep sea vents. Any thoughts about long term effects of putting volcanic based rock with its soup of chemicals in a closed system as opposed to a simple traditional calcium carbonate live rock?

CuzzA
07/19/2015, 08:34 PM
Considering that so many reefs are built on or around volcanos, Hawaii being the obvious one that comes to mind and of course they're sourcing the volcanic pumice from Fijian waters I suspect it's just fine. Also just about every atoll is formed on an extinct seamount or submerged volcano.

Perhaps some more studies need to be conducted about the use of volcanic rock in closed systems. Maybe there is some real benefits. Like extremely efficent denitrification. It would be interesting to know.

Devaji108
07/19/2015, 10:58 PM
Sure - here are two videos. The first is the outside of the rock ( back of the wall). The second video is the inside of the rock (front of the wall). I tried to create an island wall if that makes sense. The tank is a 3 foot cube.

https://vimeo.com/133913011

https://vimeo.com/133913052

thanks man! looking great!

liverock
07/20/2015, 05:07 AM
If I missed this, I apologize. I read the entire thread but didn't think about this until the end. Any pictures of the Live sand? Also it sounds like it is a variety of sea bed material rather than the more uniform sand for the LFS. I'm curious how big the pieces get in the LS. Reason i'm asking is i'm hoping to do a 180g next year and plan to do a 4-5" sand bed for a blue dot jawfish and i'm wondering if this sand would have enough variety for a jawfish to line its burrow. Also, would a standard sand bed calculator work to determine how much sand to order?

Great thread and I'm really liking what I'm reading about The Package.

Here.....

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/pricelist.html

pictures!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

rmcaum
07/20/2015, 05:52 PM
The sand is great, varied but still "sandy." The main difference in this and bagged sand is a few larger pieces of coral rubble or shells. It looks very natural obviously. If you don't like the few larger pieces just use a clean cat litter scoop to take them out. I kind of misspoke, the main difference is the life that comes in it. Every time I vacuum my sand I have to let it settle and pick out all of the critters from the discard bucket to avoid feeling guilty. The crabs and mantis that people are stuck on aren't that big of deal. I had two mantis shrimp in my two shipments, caught the first one no problem, kept the second for a couple of years in the display. I caught it eating a snail on video once, much more fascinating than disruptive. I fed him with frozen food on a stick or tongs, he was quite awesome. I had a couple of gorillas, but they haven't hurt anything. I know the stories of fish killers in both cases, but neither species ever hurt my fish which are all small, gramma, clowns, yellow and sixline wrasse. I could catch the gorillas if I wanted to, just food on a stick after they get used to you. The thing that should be focused on is the awesome array of really cool life. Baby urchins the size of a dime that grow into algae eating baseballs that you can keep, sell or trade. Limpets, porcelain crabs, cup corals, sponges, tunicates, mini brittles. They all add such a dimension to the tank. I didn't add coral for months just because it was so entertaining to watch the natural fauna. I will admit, some of the life just doesn't last forever in the less than ideal conditions. The barnacles, oysters and some of the macro sponges only lasted months to a couple of years. Newer tank was purchased used and was started from dry rock and bagged sand. It seems like a desert sitting next to an old growth rain Forrest, devoid. Kind of sad actually.

rkmcdon
07/20/2015, 10:00 PM
Here.....

http://tbsaltwater.com/ordering/pricelist.html

pictures!

sea ya
Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you Richard

Hitch08
07/23/2015, 10:48 AM
Going to get my order in soon. Very excited to see the life that comes to the tank!

Chibils
07/24/2015, 04:23 AM
Going to get my order in soon. Very excited to see the life that comes to the tank!
Please post it for us! I'd love to see more of this rock.

fftfk
07/24/2015, 11:37 AM
Looking at the live rock...any idea what these guys are?
324061
324062

liverock
07/24/2015, 12:07 PM
Looking at the live rock...any idea what these guys are?
324061
324062

Tunicate colonies ...

KingTriton1
07/24/2015, 12:12 PM
Looking at the live rock...any idea what these guys are?
324061
324062

My LR came with plenty on those on it.

dingodan87
07/24/2015, 12:45 PM
Are there any people here who have had long term success in keeping some of the creatures (barnacle, sponges, tunicates) that come on these rocks alive? What's your advice?

liverock
07/24/2015, 01:03 PM
Are there any people here who have had long term success in keeping some of the creatures (barnacle, sponges, tunicates) that come on these rocks alive? What's your advice?

Long term? ...I want on that bandwagon.....LOL

I think the key is to enjoy it while you have it...but as you know....nothing lives forever....use all the regular foods folks use and keep your nose stuck to the glass....looking....at the life...

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com

billsreef
07/24/2015, 03:17 PM
Are there any people here who have had long term success in keeping some of the creatures (barnacle, sponges, tunicates) that come on these rocks alive? What's your advice?
Phytoplankton on a regular basis :)

IUfan
07/24/2015, 05:14 PM
This looks like some really cool rock.

Question for Richard and those who have this rock in there tank.

Does the rock have a lot of Aiptaisia and bubble algae. My reason for using dry rock in my last build was to eliminate these 2 PITA's. That'd be my only worry if I were to use this in my future build, so just wanted to find out from you on that one.

billsreef
07/24/2015, 05:18 PM
I have not seen any aiptasia or bubble algae on either the base rock or 2.1 rock that Richard has sent me.

liverock
07/24/2015, 05:22 PM
This looks like some really cool rock.

Question for Richard and those who have this rock in there tank.

Does the rock have a lot of Aiptaisia and bubble algae. My reason for using dry rock in my last build was to eliminate these 2 PITA's. That'd be my only worry if I were to use this in my future build, so just wanted to find out from you on that one.

Yo

there are none of the invasive type aptasia in the Gulf...those are of indo pacific origin ...and no bubble algae up here either...but I have seen it in the Keys...but not up here.....we are blessed in those categories...

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

IUfan
07/24/2015, 05:24 PM
That's good to hear. I hate that sh!t.

IUfan
07/24/2015, 05:25 PM
Nice, next build I'm gonna give you a call.

KingTriton1
07/24/2015, 06:52 PM
Yo

there are none of the invasive type aptasia in the Gulf...those are of indo pacific origin ...and no bubble algae up here either...but I have seen it in the Keys...but not up here.....we are blessed in those categories...

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

Richard,

I love your live rock, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Any rock that comes from FL has a good chance of having bubble algae on it. I use to live in Pensacola, Fl and this was always the case with local rock. Aptasia was generally present as well. I think it is rare to find any live rock without these on them as they are pretty common. Not the end of the world or anything, but if you buy more than 10lbs I would say it's pretty obvious that it will be present.

liverock
07/24/2015, 07:20 PM
Richard,

I love your live rock, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. Any rock that comes from FL has a good chance of having bubble algae on it. I use to live in Pensacola, Fl and this was always the case with local rock. Aptasia was generally present as well. I think it is rare to find any live rock without these on them as they are pretty common. Not the end of the world or anything, but if you buy more than 10lbs I would say it's pretty obvious that it will be present.

Maybe so...but not so...... have never seen any bubble...here..in the Gulf ever..as for aptasia, yes there is one of the species here...but not the invasive type. The ones I do see are singles, and do not multiply like the indo ones...in fact I have one in my system for a few years...just keeps getting bigger and bigger...but never propagates. I keep him around just to see how it goes.

If they were an issue my systems would be full of them....and there are none, so they are of no issue here.

As for bubble algae...not in 45 years of diving here in the gulf have I seen any, ever....but it does occur in the Keys. so I guess we can agree to disagree...lol

Now if you go to the local wholesalers....their tanks are full of the invasive aptasia....why?...because they come in on the corals they import, and they are constantly battling them.

And remember ..I am the guy who dives and brings in tons and tons of rock, I know!

Richard TBS
www.tbsaltwater.com :lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

KingTriton1
07/24/2015, 07:50 PM
Richard,

I actually bought some 20lbs of live rock from you that came with bubble algae. This rock was put into a brand new tank without any additional rock for other sources. Although it didn't appear until I let me nitrates get out of hand in my quarantine. I can only share my particular experience, however at the end of the day the rock was worth it.

Keep up the good work :thumbsup:

IUfan
07/24/2015, 08:12 PM
Someone needs to find a critter that eats bubble algae, Aiptaisia, while bad, has its predators. But bubble algae, can't pay something to eat it.

KingTriton1
07/24/2015, 08:18 PM
I've heard of Emeril crabs and fox faces sometimes work. However no success on my end, even with lower nutrients. Everyone has different experiences though. I'm not trying the persuade anyone against TBS live rock as I still buy live rock from Richard and for good reason

JaySchulz
07/24/2015, 10:17 PM
Following along. Might be buying 100lbs for the build I'm about to do. What kind of pest hitchhikers are common with the live rock?

saf1
07/24/2015, 10:22 PM
Someone needs to find a critter that eats bubble algae, Aiptaisia, while bad, has its predators. But bubble algae, can't pay something to eat it.

Emerald crabs will eat it. That is always my go to animal to fight that problem and they are good scavengers to boot. Aiptaisia I have a file fish that does wonders and eats pellets, mysis, and everything else. Best fish ever and I will even go to my LFS and buy a frag with it for him/her as a treat.

I think with Richards stuff you just need to be aware of what "can" catch a ride and plan accordingly. There is nothing wrong with any of. The so-called pest(s) to include bubble algae or Aiptaisia. We can add things to counter that look nice and don't take away from the overall look. I have bubble hair and even blue cloves but to me it looks natural and that is part of the bio. Type I'm after.

If I was doing sps or something else then I. Would start with Richards first and then work my way through it over the next couple of months to see what I. Want to keep, counter, catch,remove or re-home ;)

Looking forward to obtaining some of this stuff once I finish planning my 40'supgrade.

Buzz1329
07/25/2015, 12:46 AM
Yikes. Makes me want to break down a tank and start all over again.

Buzz1329
07/25/2015, 01:17 AM
Emerald crabs will eat it. That is always my go to animal to fight that problem and they are good scavengers to boot. Aiptaisia I have a file fish that does wonders and eats pellets, mysis, and everything else. Best fish ever and I will even go to my LFS and buy a frag with it for him/her as a treat.

I think with Richards stuff you just need to be aware of what "can" catch a ride and plan accordingly. There is nothing wrong with any of. The so-called pest(s) to include bubble algae or Aiptaisia. We can add things to counter that look nice and don't take away from the overall look. I have bubble hair and even blue cloves but to me it looks natural and that is part of the bio. Type I'm after.

If I was doing sps or something else then I. Would start with Richards first and then work my way through it over the next couple of months to see what I. Want to keep, counter, catch,remove or re-home ;)

Looking forward to obtaining some of this stuff once I finish planning my 40'supgrade.

Sorry if I'm being a nuisance, but this is my personal bete noir. None of the dozens of emerald crabs I have added to my tanks over the decades have ever had any effect on bubble algae. Could be I'm mistaken. Maybe they eat leetle, beety tiny ones at night while I'm not looking. But I've never seen a reduction in bubble algae after adding these crabs, and the only things I have ever seen them eat are LPS polyps.

For the record I'm also opposed to hermit crabs unless the goal is to reduce the snail pop as snails seem to be their primary source of protein, but that is piling on crabs I think.

So as a recently declared candidate for the GOP presidential nomination, that's my platform: we need to build a wall between evil crabs and our reef aquaria.

Mike

CuzzA
07/25/2015, 05:53 AM
I wish dogs didn't come with hitchhiking fleas and ice cream didn't come with hitchhiking sugar and beer didn't come with hitchhiking liver poison. But I like dogs, ice cream and beer. Everything in life comes with a caveat. Some are just worse than others. Some algae on live rock is certainly not enough of a caveat to consider not using real ocean live rock, IMO. But hey, to each his own. If you don't like fleas, fat, a bad liver and algae, don't buy it, consume it, or get into the marine aquarium hobby. :)

saf1
07/25/2015, 07:40 AM
Sorry if I'm being a nuisance, but this is my personal bete noir. None of the dozens of emerald crabs I have added to my tanks over the decades have ever had any effect on bubble algae.

I don't think nuisance nor do I think it is just you. I can just tell you what my personal experience has been when putting them in. For a bit I had two 29 gallon bio cubes of which one had a really bad problem with bubble algae while the other one didn't. I wasn't sure if it was because this one had a deep sand bed or different LED combination / manufacture (Phillips vs. Cree). In either case at times the bubbles would be everywhere to include free floating.

Syphon / pull out what I can, grab a few off rocks, add in two emerald crabs, within a couple weeks to a month the problem was gone. These are the funky green/light green in color with red dots/color on their fore arm / large claws joint area.

But I have read that sometimes they don't just like peppermint shrimp don't or only eat a little. That is why I have the file fish :)

rmcaum
07/26/2015, 01:27 PM
I have had 120 pounds of Richards older rock and never had any bubble algae. My tank with dry rock has a little but that came in a coral frag. I did have one aiptaisia that I let live for a couple of years and it never propagated. I eventually killed it just because I felt like I owed it to it. As far as long term success with the life, many of species last months to a year, as they thin out the hardier sponges and cup corals become more prevalent. I still have lots of sponge but in less variety. One of the three great tree sponges I got is still alive two and a half years later. It is starting to fade. Still well worth it.

fftfk
07/26/2015, 05:20 PM
I bought 10 lbs of rubble for my sump and just found these three urchins:
324234
324235
324236

CuzzA
07/26/2015, 05:29 PM
Nice. I mean really... Where can you buy rock rubble and end up with so much life? Richard of course. Awesome.

Bmplank86
07/26/2015, 06:22 PM
Love it!

moondoggy4
07/26/2015, 06:29 PM
Great thread, I read through the whole thing. Not sure if I want to go dead Pukani or live,leaning towards the live right now.

CuzzA
07/26/2015, 07:33 PM
I went live Pukani. This was before seeing Walt's rock. Which is a ocean magnet! Here's a sneak peak mock up of my scape. Just waiting for some decent weather to get it out in the Gulf. We've been getting hammered with thunderstorms everyday all day for the last couple weeks.

Some info on my aquascape... The overhang will conceal an int/ext c2c overflow with a bean drain. It will also have a shadow box background. The tall left side of the rock will hide my returns and automatic artemia feeder and the bean drains will be hidden by faux rock in the shadow box. I made the faux tabling shelf rocks out of Portland cement, sand and crushed rock. I also hollowed out the bottoms of the big Pukani rocks in an effort to create more territory for fish as I intend on being heavily stocked.

I'm going to great length to conceal any and all equipment, including powerheads (2 RW20's on either side simulating the tidal schedule and maybe 2 RW15's if needed). The only thing you will see is the outputs from 4x sea swirls at the water line.

A quick tip: Don't toss your tank crating! This has been the perfect tank work bench and I can beat the hell out of it knowing it'll get tossed when I'm done. I cut the bench to the same size as my tank.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=324098&d=1437788474

Hitch08
07/27/2015, 02:34 PM
Please post it for us! I'd love to see more of this rock.

I will certainly do that. Last week, I traded several emails with Richard. I let him know where my tank is as far as cycling. He asked if I added the sand which I purchased elsewhere - I had not. I was following the suggestion of some on here to add sand after you place the rock.

In any event, he suggested that I add some of that sand, wait a week and then put in my order.

Later this week I'll place an order for delivery the following week. I'll probably get "The Package" for a 35-50 gallon tank, as I already have about 100 pounds of cycled dead rock.

Devaji108
07/28/2015, 12:53 PM
Hey Cuzza,
how did your open water cert. go?
did you every get those rocks vids shapes your where talking about of the shelfs branches etc. just curious about to order this week or the next and would like to see all of what you guys have.

Oh on a side note how much do LS do you you reefers out there recommend I "seed" my special grade ocean floor substrate with? I was thinking 1 to 2 # for a 40br. don't wait to much as I really like the substrate I have just some life to kick start it.
thoughts?

CuzzA
07/28/2015, 02:19 PM
Yo Devaji,

Class work is done. I dive Saturday and Sunday. Will be officially certified Sunday. Then I can get down on Richards reef and take some glorious video. :) While the Gulf Lander is great for checking out new fishing locations, it's rather cumbersome to try and take quality video of a reef in the blind.

As for the sand, I would say 2-4 pounds would be good if you're looking to get a decent amount of critters. Richard would know best.

Devaji108
07/28/2015, 02:54 PM
thanks brother!
glad your diving this weekend. just a warning it's addictive.....haha

cambo123
07/28/2015, 09:34 PM
I got my 2.1 in today. This stuff is legit and honestly looks awesome. It is extremely easy to scape with and I was able to get a setup of my liking within 20 min. Really, really nice looking rock. Covered in everything you could imagine. Literally moments after hitting the water I you could find very tiny shrimps, crabs, and snails. Will post pics this weekend.

Devaji108
07/28/2015, 11:31 PM
nice! I look forward to seeing it. and more so getting some in my tank. :)

JaySchulz
08/01/2015, 06:56 PM
I am coming back into the hobby currently and I have been the research stages of my build. A lot of new products since my last tank. Reef rock 2.0 & 2.1 have been at the top of my list for the rock I plan on using. But I do have a few questions that hopefully you guys can answer.
1) the pics of the rock that is posted by the OP on page 1 look filled with purple coralline. But the pics of other harvested rock in some of the following pages does not appear to have anywhere near the purple coralline. Is this due to the lights I'm in the OP's tank?

2) in the video that's posted one page 1, the artificial rock that The Fijians are making are dropped into a lagoon in Fiji. Yet it appears that TBS is actually letting this culture in Florida. In confused as to the difference?

3) my tank has been ordered and won't be here for another 5 weeks. If I buy any of the 2.1, how long is the average curing time since this is an artifiacial rock and should have zero die off? My biggest concern is leached phosphates.

4) my tank will be a 200 gallon 72"x30"x21". How many lbs do you recommend? I don't plan on a heavily rock filled scape nor do I plan on a minimalist scape. Somewhere in the middle. I was thinking 150 lbs. 100lbs being 2.1 and 50lbs being live.

5) I can buy the 2.1 from you as well?

Thanks ahead of time.

CuzzA
08/02/2015, 06:39 PM
It's official... Certified open water. Next will be some dives on Richard's Tampa Bay Saltwater aquaculture site and then Nitrox and Advanced Open Water. :)

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah183/CuzzaBay/a806845c00fcd3a73614ad650796f6c0_zpsexxmqwfv.jpg

http://i1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah183/CuzzaBay/4f1d9d135a949b62cb8777eec6d58371_zpsuy4vn833.jpg

saf1
08/02/2015, 08:03 PM
Grats. I remember my certification, fun day. Looks like you had good visibility and I can only imagine that the water was like bathwater.