PDA

View Full Version : Dying Snails


rdnyva
06/15/2015, 05:11 PM
I cannot keep snails alive more than a week or so. Soon after I put them in I see dying snails and then empty shells. There are no predators to kill them. I have only 3 fish in this tank, a medium size yellow tang, a six line wrasse and a flame hawkfish. I feed sparing, skim, and use biopellets so I don't think it's a nitrate problem. Fish and corals are doing fine. Any suggestions on what I should be looking for?

Dkuhlmann
06/15/2015, 05:27 PM
What are your water parameters? Also check for copper, copper will kill them. But need to know your basic parameters too.

rdnyva
06/15/2015, 05:33 PM
Sorry, I should have included parameters but I don't think that's the problem. I'm dosing using BRS pumps. Alk although I'd like it higher is a steady 7.3 DKH. Cal is 425, mag 1400. I keep the salinity at 1.025. Temp never varies more than 80 - 80.2. I tested for nitrates using a salifert kit and best I can tell it is .02, kind of difficult when reading colors.

Copper can be eliminated. Tank is only 8 months old, bought it new. Additionally all corals are thriving, and I have other inverts in the tank, emerald crabs, serpent stars. I also have hermits in my sump with no problem.

Corona007
06/15/2015, 06:10 PM
That's weird, I have had 2 mex turbos in a 1/2 gal beta tank the last 2 months.
No heater, no skimmer just the little pump that comes in the hood.
There is a 3 lb live rock with rubble and I change water 50% every other week.
Give them some sea week once a week.
I have never even check the peramters. Lol
Just keeping them in case I need them.

Dkuhlmann
06/15/2015, 07:12 PM
You do realize that alk should be up around 9 dkh not 7. anything

knutrainer
06/15/2015, 08:34 PM
What type of snails do you have and what temp is the tank?

rdnyva
06/16/2015, 05:02 AM
I've been trying to raise alk but am having problems. I will test, add enough alk to raise it from 7.3 to 8, raise my dosing, but within a week it's back down to 7.3. Would low alk affect snails? Temp is a constant 80-80.2, slightly higher in hot weather, 80.4 since my sump is in the garage. I've tried nassarius, turbos, astreas and ceriths.

salty joe
06/16/2015, 05:17 AM
[QUOTE=rdnyva;23811716] .

Copper can be eliminated. QUOTE]

That does not mean you don't have an issue with copper. I'd check copper to either eliminate it as a possibility or deal with it.

CStrickland
06/16/2015, 05:36 AM
I think they meant we can eliminate copper as a possibility cause the tank is new etc.
in the ocean alk is 7, so I don't think that's killing them
Are you getting them shipped from online? They are pretty sensitive to acclimation especially if they are in a bag for a while
is there enough algae around? Both for them to eat and also for the emerald to stay satisfied and not need to eat snails
are you sure no hermits found their way into to the tank to do some murder for fun?

rdnyva
06/16/2015, 05:50 AM
Yes the tank is new, 8 months old. I originally had a used 55 gal sump I bought through craigslist, then for the past 6 months I bought a 75 gal from a very reputable LFS. All my equipment is new, bought by me, nothing used. I don't think copper is an issue, but having said that I will invest in a test kit, just to be sure. No hermits in the display only in the sump. I never see anything eating dead snail, except snails still alive. They just seem to keel over after about a week. Once in while one or two will survive for a period.

I've tried acclimating them and also just dumping them in. I've asked on this forum and opinion is it doesn't seem to matter. I've bought snails from LFS and ordered on line from Reef Cleaners. Always same results.

I know alk is low and I'm working on it. I dose at midnight and noon, and test at 9AM, when alk would be lowest, so it may be somewhat higher.

I think many things can be eliminated because I have a tankful of LPS and softies and all are showing color and growth. Also crabs, serpents, cucumbers and sump hermits are fine. Still this is puzzling. Thank you all for your helpful replies.

salty joe
06/16/2015, 06:19 AM
I am interested in this one. Please keep us posted.

julie180
06/16/2015, 06:20 AM
Flame hawk might be the problem.

rdnyva
06/16/2015, 06:24 AM
Flame hawk might be the problem.

How so? I never see him attack or eat a dying/dead snail. When the snails die they extend out of their shells, flame never touches them.

This Flame is a problem with another issue. He is very aggressive. If you noticed I only have 3 fish in a 150, it's because he kills any fish I put in there. I've been trying to catch him for months.

scooter31707
06/16/2015, 07:21 AM
Six-Line wrasse or the Flame Hawk is the problem in my opinion. It might not be doing it when you are looking, but I truly believe he's the culprit.

rdnyva
06/16/2015, 07:43 AM
I don't think it's the six line. He is terrified of the hawk and doesn't come out except to make a dash for food. Since anything chemical would also affect other inverts I guess the flame has to be a prime suspect. Would he kill the snails just to kill them, because there are many dead snails lying around and he ignores the carcasses. I will step up my efforts to catch him and get him out and see what happens.

oblio
06/16/2015, 09:27 AM
As a real quick way to eliminate any weirdness in the water throw a Poly Filter in the sump. Its cheap and will tell you if something unexpected is in your water. These things work extremely well. Always have one around in case something doesn't "look right" and if there is something in there, the poly pad will remove it for you. :beer:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4335

Good luck sir.

newby30gallon
06/16/2015, 11:09 AM
my buddy was having a similar problem.... turned out he was electricuting the inhabitants. turned out he needed a grounding rod to remove the excessive voltage being introduced into the water. he had fish and couldn't keep an invert alive. sounds like you don't have toxicity issues.

hope this helps

rdnyva
06/17/2015, 05:44 AM
All great observations and suggestions. Definitely got me thinking and pointed in the right direction. Thank you all.

I think I am going to try a little experiment. I have a little fish net type of thing, the kind you could isolate a fish in. I'm going to buy a half dozen snails, put them in and see if they live or die. By doing this I can either eliminate or confirm the Hawkfish and also toxicity.

I will post results. Thanks

karimwassef
06/17/2015, 05:59 AM
Do you have enough algae for them to eat?

RA
06/17/2015, 06:18 AM
How do you introduce them to your tank? I have found that if you take the snail out of the bag and hold it in your tank right at the water level on the glass, allows them to acclimate themselves to a different salinity. It's worth a try.

rdnyva
06/17/2015, 06:18 AM
In the tank there is plenty. The tank being fairly new I am battling high phosphate and Diatom blooms.

In the net I will feed them.

rdnyva
06/17/2015, 06:25 AM
I've tried acclimating and just dumping them in, same results. Reef cleaners says if you acclimate it voids their warranty. They tell you to just float the bag to temp acclimate and then dump.

gi_eric22
06/17/2015, 08:17 AM
Do you have dinoflagellates they can be toxic to snails. I had them in my tank and lost about half my snails

rdnyva
06/19/2015, 04:26 AM
I am constantly battling diatoms caused by high phosphate and have had cyano so bad I was forced to use chemiclean a few months ago. It has not come back. I do not believe I have Dino's.

How would I test for stray voltage? I would like to test before just dropping in a grounding probe.

serbusfish
06/19/2015, 04:45 AM
How did you acclimate them? If you dont acclimate VERY slowly it can kill them, it might take several days for them to succumb so you might be thinking they are healthy to start with. I get mine from the LFS and drip for 1.5 - 2 hours.

CStrickland
06/19/2015, 03:31 PM
I would never drip tidal snails, especially if they were shipped to you. They don't really care about temp or salinity but the ammonia will do a number on them.
Idk... I'm leaning toward a predator or starving

rdnyva
06/19/2015, 03:58 PM
Reef cleaners will void their warrantee if you drip.

The only predator it can be is the Hawkfish, but idk if he'd kill them and not eat them. I see dead snails hanging out of their shells and he passes right by. I'm still trying to trap him.

Just an update which makes this even more puzzling. A week to 10 days later I still have some snails alive. Most are dead, I'd say 70% are dead. There is plenty of Diatoms to eat and the ones that are alive are eating it. Besides I don't think that many snails would die in a week even if they had zero to eat.

karimwassef
06/19/2015, 04:48 PM
Need pics

Dkuhlmann
06/19/2015, 07:21 PM
How did you acclimate them? If you dont acclimate VERY slowly it can kill them, it might take several days for them to succumb so you might be thinking they are healthy to start with. I get mine from the LFS and drip for 1.5 - 2 hours.

I temp acclimate snails then drop in a 1/4 cup of tank water twice over 20 minutes and then drop them in. Never had any problems with them.

ArmyGreens
06/19/2015, 07:29 PM
Large serpent stars and brittle stars will eat snails and hermits if hungry. Predatory flat worms will ambush snails at night too from my experiences

rdnyva
06/20/2015, 05:54 AM
It's not an acclimation issue, I'm sure of that. I do have 2 serpent stars. One has a disk the size of a quarter the other a dime. They come out to feed when I feed the fish. I have never seen them eat a snail.

Also don't think it's a flatworm problem. I don't see any, corals are doing great and the presence of the six line pretty much eliminates flatworms.

I assume you want a pic of a dead snail. I tried to attach one but not sure if I've done it right.

salty joe
06/20/2015, 06:33 AM
Are there parasites that attack snails? Have you inspected a fresh death with a magnifier?

A shell with a dead snail hanging out of does not seem like predation.

Dkuhlmann
06/20/2015, 07:45 AM
Did you ever test for copper? I know it's a fairly new tank but that doesn't matter.

oldbones
06/20/2015, 07:55 AM
Question, and pardon me if I missed it, but what salt mix are you using? Big bucket or small jug?

ReefCowboy
06/20/2015, 08:38 AM
Lol you have the same problem as myself. My fish and sps are doing excellent, all params are great. I can't keep snails alive. I gotta keep cleaning the glass manually since those critters never survive past the first week.
I've tried abalones, turbo snails, nerites.... I finally gave up

Dkuhlmann
06/20/2015, 09:33 AM
Clearly something simple is being overlooked for two of you to have this snail problem. Snails are some of the easiest animals to keep

rdnyva
06/20/2015, 10:15 AM
I'm using Reef Crystals, the 200 gallon box.

Almost nice to know others have this problem. Misery loves company.

I haven't tested for copper yet, but if it is there it would kill other inverts too.

I'm unsure which way to go because about 30% of the snails survive, 70% are dead within a week. Anything I can put my finger on would kill them all.

wrott
06/20/2015, 10:22 AM
I know my fish kill 90% of my newly introduced snails--angelfish and others.
A Cu concentration high enough to harm/kill inverts would not register on hobby test kits--they are only useful for measuring therapeutic concentrations of Cu for killing protozoans.

Browndawg80
06/20/2015, 03:13 PM
When was the last time you calibrated your refractometer? If you shoot for 1.025 but it's off by 2 or 3 points on the high side this could be your problem.

Buzz1329
06/20/2015, 04:21 PM
You do realize that alk should be up around 9 dkh not 7. anything

Why? NSW level is 7.0?

Buzz1329
06/20/2015, 04:42 PM
How did you acclimate them? If you dont acclimate VERY slowly it can kill them, it might take several days for them to succumb so you might be thinking they are healthy to start with. I get mine from the LFS and drip for 1.5 - 2 hours.

When I buy snails from internet suppliers, they ship the snails without water and STRONGLY recommend that snails be placed directly in tank without trying to acclimate them (after floating bag to match temp of tank). Assuming snails arrive alive (i.e., assuming you have not ordered from a supplier whose name does not rhyme with beets through dough), this method has worked well for me.

Mike

MellowReefer
06/20/2015, 04:59 PM
I can't seem to keep turbos past a few months, and astreas don't last long either. But I have had my trochus snails over three years now. Maybe try those. Also my super Tongan nassarious have lived much longer than the smaller nassarious.

salty joe
06/20/2015, 06:14 PM
A Cu concentration high enough to harm/kill inverts would not register on hobby test kits--they are only useful for measuring therapeutic concentrations of Cu for killing protozoans.

If Salifert can be trusted it can measure down to 50ppb. While 30ppb seems to considered the safe limit, knowing you have less than 50ppb is useful. It'd also be useful to know you have more than 50ppb. It's possible that 50ppb would kill most snails in a week rather than all of them right now.....and if you have any copper reading, then there you are. IMO, testing for copper would be useful.

Dkuhlmann
06/21/2015, 05:02 AM
Why? NSW level is 7.0?

Yes it is but if you start at 7 and have corals consuming it, it can drop quickly to too low of a level to do you any good depending on your tanks consumption

Dkuhlmann
06/21/2015, 05:04 AM
I can't seem to keep turbos past a few months, and astreas don't last long either. But I have had my trochus snails over three years now. Maybe try those. Also my super Tongan nassarious have lived much longer than the smaller nassarious.

Nassarius snails are my favorite snail :dance:

salty joe
06/26/2015, 06:19 AM
So, what's the latest with your dead snails?

rdnyva
06/26/2015, 06:41 AM
Sorry nothing to report, except most are dead some are still alive. I'm leaving on vacation today for 10 days, so I really didn't want to start anything just yet. When I get back I'll get back on it. Otherwise the tank, fish, coral, and other inverts are doing great.

salty joe
07/07/2015, 04:15 AM
Figure anything out yet? Eliminate any possibilities? Alk swing maybe? Have a nice vacation?

pisanoal
07/07/2015, 04:37 AM
Yes it is but if you start at 7 and have corals consuming it, it can drop quickly to too low of a level to do you any good depending on your tanks consumption


You also realize that ULNS systems run between a 7 and 8. Any higher and tips burn. I also highly doubt it has anything to do with snails dying in the ops situation.

Op: what kind of snails are they? A lot of the snails we use are found in lower temp waters (mid 70s). A consistent tank temp of 80 could be an issue for some species.

There is no harm in running your tank a few degrees cooler if you choose to try it

rdnyva
07/07/2015, 05:17 AM
Just returned yesterday and still trying to recover from a fabulous European trip, but that's a story for a different day and different forum. It was 1AM when I got home and first thing I did was get a flashlight to examine the tank. Everything was fine, but I was astonished at how many Cerith snails there were, mostly on the glass. Both large and dwarf ceriths. Only a few Astraea snails are left. So the mystery continues. What would effect Astraea snails and not ceriths? My Alk, a little lower than I'd like, is rock steady according to my apex and thanks to my dosers. I just ordered a poly filter and wil try that, just for the heck of it.