Hanna Phosphate Checker

[Mock]

I guess the last go around I never really did this because I always had a zero reading.

However, I let the tank slide a little after some issues, and phosphates and nitrates register now.

Last night I checked my phosphates and on the first to I go .16........

I figured, what the he!! and tested it again, .09......

Well....... Again..... .05.......

So, instead of redoing the whole thing with new regents and cleaning the vials again and all, I just averaged these.

Does that sound right or was the first one more spot on, I was well within time limits and these were all back to back? Does the reagent fall off that fast? is it more accurate if you let it sit for 60 seconds before? Last I checked the directions say nothing about this kind of stuff.

[ryeguyy84]

I would think the first one is accurate.

the steps I take are:
1) start with a clean vial
2) fill it a few times with tank water just to get anything out that might be in there
3) fill it with saltwater to the line
4) put it in the checker when it says add C1
5) take it out and add the reagent shake for about a minute or so until it dissolves
6) press and hold the button with the reagent in until the 3 min counter starts.
7) read test results.

HTH

[Mock]

1) Start with "clean vials"
2) Fill to line with Saltwater in both
3) Add reagent to one and shake
4) Put in clean vial for C1
5) Put in vial with reagent for C2

There really isnt much time between these and to see so many different numbers just seems odd. I know there is a tolerance .04 on these things so to average @ .09 seems to fit my mind logically because if I got steadily decreasing numbers then that should mean that the tolerance leaned downward. If I went with .16 it could be .12 or .0.2 and the same with the corresponding others.

Its why I just averaged the numbers and went with it.

[Crusinjimbo]

I use both vials for testing PO4 using the same basic processes punted above. I cycle the first vial (without reagent) and always get a "0" result. I add the reagent to the second vial and run the test with the three minute settling procedure and note the results. I run the cycle again immediately without the settling process and note the results. My deviations were never more than .01-.02 which is within the deviation error of .04. I average the readings and record. The actual number is less important to me than the trend of the number, up or down.

[Mock]

I use both vials for testing PO4 using the same basic processes punted above. I cycle the first vial (without reagent) and always get a "0" result. I add the reagent to the second vial and run the test with the three minute settling procedure and note the results. I run the cycle again immediately without the settling process and note the results. My deviations were never more than .01-.02 which is within the deviation error of .04. I average the readings and record. The actual number is less important to me than the trend of the number, up or down.


I had some big deviations though from .5 to .16..... Its whats not making sense. Margin of error should be .04. At that rate then .12 should be the next reading or so, not .09.

I have like a thousand test now because my wife bought two boxes of 50 because they were cheaper that way, I am going to use the paper tube trick and see if there was an error in the regent addition and just run 5 more or so three different times to see if there is something that I am missing or if there really is something to it and can start to get more consistent results.

Like you said, the actual number to me at this point in the game is less important to me and the trend of the number too, but I should get consistent readings in the .04 range and be able to nail down a better average to use as a baseline to actually begin to treat.

With my Red Sea Pro kit the last time I checked about 2 weeks ago I was sitting at .16 on it. Thats all I have been able to get out of it before the last test too, since then I have began vinegar dosing and have noticed my nitrates starting to curb a little so I would think that the phosphates would be doing the same... Cheato ball is growing too so....

This hobby and all the numbers :hammer::hammer::hammer: :lol:

[bertoni]

I think averaging the numbers probably is close enough, and that spread isn't all that far out of the specification. On the other hand, the meter could be having problems, so I'd be very careful about taking any drastic steps based on the average. Are you seeing any problems with the tank?

[Mock]

Nah, No problems, just trying vinegar dosing. Experimenting really.

I was down for almost a year, 2 years ago and lost/parted out my SPS.

Since then I have ran it as a Softy tank and let things lax, not having to stay on top of parameters as much.

I am slowly morphing into the SPS world again and just trying to find my way. I used to never have nitrates on a test or phosphates even show up on my hanna checker...... I am not used to dealing with them in the aspect of SPS because I never had them.

I have purchased a couple pieces, lost a couple pieces, scratched my head at what was different and trying to get back the balance I once had.

I now have two birdsnest as guinea pigs that I got off the $15 rack..... They have been stable for 2 weeks now so I know I am getting somewhere.

[bertoni]

Okay, well, I'm sorry you're having such problems with measurement, but that seems to be fairly common. If you want to track down the problem, I guess I'd try with a new batch of reagents, or maybe I'd borrow a meter and use the same reagents, if that were easy.

[outssider]

I have the hi 736 phosphorus tester and have been using it for many years. I do the test using one vial but also fill the second vial with tank water to double check my results. All readings weather using one vial or two are pretty close.

Something you have to consider : the clarity/consistency of the vials is important. If one vial is bluer than the other and you're using the two vial method, you're reading will be too far off to use this method. even the consistency/clarity in the same vial is important if you're using one vial. I always put the vial oriented in the same direction when I pull it out to add the reagent. I believe that both my vials are consistent in clarity but that doesn't mean yours are....or that all are....

[MarlinHooker]

Hanna has some very detailed explainations on how to use their checkers .... you might be surprized on how precise you need to be to get accurate measurements .... particularly with the phosphate checker as you need to ensure you are getting all the reagent out of the foil pouch ...

[Dan_P]

I guess the last go around I never really did this because I always had a zero reading.

However, I let the tank slide a little after some issues, and phosphates and nitrates register now.

Last night I checked my phosphates and on the first to I go .16........

I figured, what the he!! and tested it again, .09......

Well....... Again..... .05.......

So, instead of redoing the whole thing with new regents and cleaning the vials again and all, I just averaged these.

Does that sound right or was the first one more spot on, I was well within time limits and these were all back to back? Does the reagent fall off that fast? is it more accurate if you let it sit for 60 seconds before? Last I checked the directions say nothing about this kind of stuff.

The Hanna checker does not necessarily give the same number for the same solution upon repeat reading, so, I take a reading three times and average. Sometimes the numbers bounce around a bit, sometimes they are the same. Other things that cause variabilty are finger prints on the glass, air bubbles on the glass or in the test solution, sediment or haze. I always hold the test vial up to a strong light to make these things are not present.

A declining trend in numbers could mean something is settling out, not necessarily that the reagent is declining, though you can test this idea.

I would average the numbers, knowing that I will be testing again in a day or two and will get another shot at testing.

[Mock]

The Hanna checker does not necessarily give the same number for the same solution upon repeat reading, so, I take a reading three times and average. Sometimes the numbers bounce around a bit, sometimes they are the same. Other things that cause variability are finger prints on the glass, air bubbles on the glass or in the test solution, sediment or haze. I always hold the test vial up to a strong light to make these things are not present.

A declining trend in numbers could mean something is settling out, not necessarily that the reagent is declining, though you can test this idea.

I would average the numbers, knowing that I will be testing again in a day or two and will get another shot at testing.

I am very diligent of cleaning the glass with RO water, rinsing multiple times and even using a Q-tip to wipe the insides at times if something looks stuck.

I make sure that they are as clean as possible and keep them on a tile surface to keep things off the bottoms when testing.

Like you said, it may be something foreign in the water that is settling out, not necessarily phosphates but just something breaking the beam. I always try to keep the vials in and out the same way too....

I keep it pretty much by the book, thats why when I started running across this I started to scratch my head. The logical thing to do was average the numbers for now.

Today and Sundays are my test days so I will get a better reading when I get home.

[hkgar]

1) Start with "clean vials"
2) Fill to line with Saltwater in both
3) Add reagent to one and shake
4) Put in clean vial for C1
5) Put in vial with reagent for C2

There really isnt much time between these and to see so many different numbers just seems odd. I know there is a tolerance .04 on these things so to average @ .09 seems to fit my mind logically because if I got steadily decreasing numbers then that should mean that the tolerance leaned downward. If I went with .16 it could be .12 or .0.2 and the same with the corresponding others.

Its why I just averaged the numbers and went with it.

I am unclear? When you but the c2 vial in the checker and press the button, do you hold it in till 3:00 shows on the display? The reagent needs to "settle"/develop for 3 minutes.

[Mock]

I am unclear? When you but the c2 vial in the checker and press the button, do you hold it in till 3:00 shows on the display? The reagent needs to "settle"/develop for 3 minutes.

Yes, and I did it three times in a row, swap one out with the other, got three different readings.

Retested it just for the heck of it over and over just to see and go very far off readings each time.

I would figure that it would stay at least true enough to test it twice and get similar numbers not fall off by 7 points or what ever.

I will test again when I get home and let you guys know the results.

[outssider]

Yes, and I did it three times in a row, swap one out with the other, got three different readings.

Retested it just for the heck of it over and over just to see and go very far off readings each time.

I would figure that it would stay at least true enough to test it twice and get similar numbers not fall off by 7 points or what ever.

I will test again when I get home and let you guys know the results.

you are assuming that the clarity of the vials are consistent with each other and also around their perimeter...

all glass has a bluish/green tint...otherwise nobody would pay up for starfire!

[bertoni]

I don't have any experience with that meter, so I can't help much, but I agree that a fair amount of attention to detail likely is useful. I'm glad the tank isn't having any problems. I wish the same were true for the testing.

[Dan_P]

you are assuming that the clarity of the vials are consistent with each other and also around their perimeter...

all glass has a bluish/green tint...otherwise nobody would pay up for starfire!

If the two vials are not matched, the error would be consistent from test to test and would not cause a declining trend. There is a possibility that the vials when turned slightly, bring an imperfection in the vial in line with the light beam. It would not necessarily explain a decling trend but would cause variability. I bought a couple dozen vials and very quickly found two that were interchangeable. I also marked them so they always align with the light path the same way.

[Mock]

Something is definitely up.... I used one vial and got a lot better readings this time.

(I admit my fault)

I went a little more Mad Scientist on the test tonight and ran three.

One I used my old method, two vials, reading .16. Much as the first reading from the last time.

Second test I did rather calmly but used one vial, picking the clearest looking one. Reading, .23

Third test I did rather slow trying to be more "exact". I used the same vial as in the second, cleaned and polished as usual, however this time I let the first vial sit for about 5 mins to let anything settle to the bottom. I slowly picked it up, put it into the meter "10ml" facing me, ran the reading, added the powder, as usual swirled until the powder was gone, wiped clean then added it back to the meter with the "10ml" facing me again to do the 3 min settle and the reading was, .21.

I ran a fourth just with the other vial exactly the way I ran the third test, result from that was .19.....

So now with the over the top experiment, I guess the last three are three methods are well in the accurate zone of how to do it. I really though I was more thorough, however as said before, when I was actually diligent and ran SPS, I never tested a Nitrate or a Phosphate on anything so, chalk it up to a learning skill.

I will just average tonight's test and chart them and do the same Sunday and see where I stand.

Either way it goes I will rely on these and just chart this as around a .2

Now its just finding them and figuring out where they are coming from. I know my DI Resin has been going away WAY too fast lately.

I will just now have to do some detective work.

[Dan_P]

Nice investigation, better than any TV show.

Who is your leading culprit for phosphate source?

[Mock]

Nice investigation, better than any TV show.

Who is your leading culprit for phosphate source?


Well the last time I checked my RO water it came in at something like a .04 or something like that. I changed the DI resin out thinking that would cut that even lower.

I dont know if I did but its eating through DI resin fairly fast so my main focus is going to be on it for a while until I can get it figured out. Tap, before the DI chamber and after are the next three areas I am going to have to attack.

Also, SFB foods that I use, I dont rinse them, as I have mentioned before I have never had to worry with high Phosphate so I never bothered. I might have to start paying a little more attention to what goes in the tank as far as food. Not going to over play this too much but I want to find out.

After those the next step would be just getting the fuge running like it used too...... I used to have the 75 refugium slam full of cheato, so much that it literally filled the whole tank and I had to, raise it and cut it in HALF ever couple weeks.

I changed some things here and there, I will most likely just continue to play with those. The area I have my cheato ball in doesnt seem to do what I want it to........

Plan of attack. Mainly RO?? Food?? and then Fuge?? I have never had to use a filter media of any sort either, no phosguard, no carbon dosing, no biopellets.... I have always kept it simple and kept a really nice tank.

Its hard to say exacts but those are the starting areas.

I dont know if its allowed but here is a link to my aqualog since starting back really paying attention to this tank and not just letting it sit idol. (If it isnt allowed I am sorry and will remove or give any mod permission to delete it)

http://www.aquaticlog.com/aquariums/reefmann/1

[droog]

You need to use the same vial for C1 and C2 for the test to be accurate. I also make sure

- the vial is in the same orientation (10ml label facing me)
- there are no micro-bubbles on the surface of the glass
- vials are cleaned with lint free cloth before each reading
- try to handle vial via cap and bottom

The steps I take are similar to the earlier responder

1) start with a clean vial
2) rinse several times with RO/DI water
3) Cut open a reagent pack and fold a groove / "chute" for powder to come out
4) Fill vial. Gently invert as necessary to ensure no bubbles on surface of glass
5) Wipe vial clean, put in it in the checker when it says add C1
6) take it out quick and add powder carefully. Do not shake!! Invert gently several times for about a minute
7) Press and hold until 3 minute counter starts (do not insert vial)
8) Continue to invert and dissolve powder for at least 2 more minutes
9) make sure no microbubbles on surface of glass. Wipe clean again
10) insert vial when countdown has about 50-60s remaining

It takes more than a minute to dissolve the powder, so I think its necessary to have the powder "ready to go" and to start the C2 countdown while you continue to dissolve the powder. I get very consistent readings doing this.

The actual colorimeter reading happens after the 3min timer hits zero. There is a single led light source about 20% of the way down in the sleeve of the container. You can see it light up when you press for C1.

Averaging your readings is valid. Testing once per week or two weeks to get a "trend" is also reasonable.

With water at my target levels (0.2 - 0.5 ppm No3, 0.03-5ppm po4) the glass is visibly dirty after about 4-5 days. I know that my water has a nutrient problem if the glass grows an algae film faster than this, say 2-3 days.

-droog

[Mock]

Cool. It all makes sense for sure. Thing is my tanks glass is rarely really bad. I can go three days or four before I can see an issue bad enough to make me wipe it.

I do have to find the reason for the phosphates though. This system has always been good to me so I don't have any reason to think I can't get it back into acceptable ranges, just going to take time and consistency with a little detective work and experimenting

[Dan_P]

Your Aqualog was great.

[Mock]

Your Aqualog was great.

Thanks, I have really enjoyed using its functions compared to just keeping xl spreadsheets.... The way it allows me to keep a diary of sorts and log all my parameters with graphs.

I started using it right before my health problems and fell off, then came across it again on a forum and they had changed it a lot and its a lot more user friendly.

Best thing is I can enter my test on my phone from my fish room, without having to have a computer at the time.

[hkgar]

Consider purchasing the Hannah Phosphorus checker. I moved from the phosphate checker to the phosphorus checker and believe it provides mych grater accuracy. Just multiply your results by .0030661 to convert. (.03 is close enough)

It is rated at +/- 5 ppb or .015 phosphate.

[Mock]

Consider purchasing the Hannah Phosphorus checker. I moved from the phosphate checker to the phosphorus checker and believe it provides mych grater accuracy. Just multiply your results by .0030661 to convert. (.03 is close enough)

It is rated at +/- 5 ppb or .015 phosphate.

I looked into this and the alk tester too.... I may wind up purchasing them both soon as I am a sucker for gizmos and gadgets.

[hkgar]

I understand. I am a sucker for new tech gadgets, also.

I have the ALK tester and I think it is great. Don't go near the Calcium reactor. I have it, because I bought it before the reviews were in, and never use it. That's being a techo sucker.

[Mock]

Okay, So......

I have a serious question to add to this thread. After doing all the test over and over, since two weeks ago, I have done absolutely nothing to this tank but dose vinegar and I tested the Hanna tester three times last night and got readings of .03,.02,.05.......

I was just testing .16 two weeks ago........


Is that even possible??

[Mock]

Anyone?

[hkgar]

How much vinegar are you dosing and how long have you been dosing it? What is your Nitrate level? It is possible the vinegar dosing may have done it, but it needs nitrate in order to remove PO4 - I can not explain why, just from ready on here. Thus the reason for the question.

[Dan_P]

Okay, So......

I have a serious question to add to this thread. After doing all the test over and over, since two weeks ago, I have done absolutely nothing to this tank but dose vinegar and I tested the Hanna tester three times last night and got readings of .03,.02,.05.......

I was just testing .16 two weeks ago........


Is that even possible??

I assume chemical preciptation of calcium phosphate or adsorption of phosphate could explain the drop, though why now? I calculated the Redfield mass for a drop of 0.127 ppm PO4 for a 325 gallon system and it works out to be 5.7 g of dry mass or 28.5 g of wet mass (80% moisture). So, it doesn't seem unreasonable to grow an ounce of bacteria in two weeks, spread across the system, and not see it.

The dosing community can chime in on whether this sort of quick PO4 depletion is achievable.

[bertoni]

That drop seems possible. I wouldn't worry very much about that issue, but I would start watching the corals carefully. People have reported issues with quick drops in the phosphate level.

[fishchef]

I had a hard time reading through all this. We've had a Checker for about 5 years and its been fairly accurate. Its compared to a Lab grade periodically at our LFS to X2. We don't switch vials. They're sort of cheap and have optical differences, so we have been using the same one all this time. Store them in RO/DI between uses to prevent the haze. Don't shake the vial, just gently invert over and over for about 20 seconds to prevent air bubbles. That's it.

[Mock]

That drop seems possible. I wouldn't worry very much about that issue, but I would start watching the corals carefully. People have reported issues with quick drops in the phosphate level.

I did notice my birdsnest stn, (just a little around the base) as it is my SPS guinea pig until I can get this tank strait.

If it makes sense to you guys then it makes sense to me, I have read where dosing has dropped it that fast but usually takes the nitrates with it. My nitrates havent changed and are still sitting at 5.

How much vinegar are you dosing and how long have you been dosing it? What is your Nitrate level? It is possible the vinegar dosing may have done it, but it needs nitrate in order to remove PO4 - I can not explain why, just from ready on here. Thus the reason for the question.

Its at 105ml a day in 350 gallons total

This is what has me puzzled however, as long as I have nitrate to pull the phosphate down, then my logic would dictate that when the phosphate went low enough, then the nitrate would start to fall as well.

It beats having the other problem, nitrates falling and not being able to pull out the phosphates.

We shall see, I am going to test it again tonight just to make sure that I am reading things right.

[Mock]

I had a hard time reading through all this. We've had a Checker for about 5 years and its been fairly accurate. Its compared to a Lab grade periodically at our LFS to X2. We don't switch vials. They're sort of cheap and have optical differences, so we have been using the same one all this time. Store them in RO/DI between uses to prevent the haze. Don't shake the vial, just gently invert over and over for about 20 seconds to prevent air bubbles. That's it.



It came down to slight differences in the whole test.

two vials vs one.

I was getting large differences. Now that I am using one it cleared it up.

It strayed a bit with my last test when I was testing .16 to .2 two weeks ago and then last night tested and was hitting .02.

I was kind of wondering if this is the tester, the testie or the actual dosing that was the reason as I had not tested anything or changed anything since the last test.

[bertoni]

I agree that it's more common for the nitrate level to drop quite a bit along with the phosphate, but our tanks are complicated systems, and I think there's going to be lots of exceptions to the common cases.

[Mock]

I agree that it's more common for the nitrate level to drop quite a bit along with the phosphate, but our tanks are complicated systems, and I think there's going to be lots of exceptions to the common cases.


I havent raised or lowered my dosage in about 3 weeks. I didnt get a chance to test last night but I can only assume its working "as intended"

[bertoni]

We have only very fuzzy information about what's happening in our tanks. I wouldn't worry much, but I would keep watching the corals carefully for signs of decline.

[aclinville]

If your regeants are off that much call the company and they will send you a new batch free of charge (this happened to me). Also use only one vial at a time for C1 to finish and orient the vial the same way each time. 2) when storing your vials don't store them dry, when done rinse with RO/DI water and then store some fresh RO/DI water inside the vial until the next test, this way you will not get a film build up inside the vial.