Cryptocaryon treatment for goby, dartfish and gramma

[Biodork]

Hello everyone,

I have a royal gramma, dartfish and an orange spotted shrimp goby currently in a quarantine tank. The gramma has been flashing and has white spots on its fins and body, along with some loose scales. I've seen a couple of white specks on the dartfish. No symptoms on the goby. All fish are eating. Would you recommend copper or hypo salinity as a treatment for these specific species?

[ThRoewer]

I would do hypo over copper any day, though with only 3 rather small fish you may also consider TTM.
TTM could be combined with hypo to save saltwater, reduce stress, increase oxygen saturation and act as an additional safety layer.

[snorvich]

TTM would work. If you want to reduce SG to about 1.017 it is beneficial but going down to the therapeutic value of 1.009 has no additional value with tank transfer.

[BigJohnny]

What's wrong with copper in this situation?

[ThRoewer]

What's wrong with copper in this situation?

Copper is just plain wrong in any situation - it's a poison that weakens or outright disables the fish's immune system which may open the door to all kinds of diseases, some way nastier than ich.

Copper is also only effective against ich which can be treated much better with TTM, CP or (with some restriction) hyposalinity.

[Deinonych]

copper is just plain wrong in any situation - it's a poison that weakens or outright disables the fish's immune system which may open the door to all kinds of diseases, some way nastier than ich.

Copper is also only effective against ich which can be treated much better with ttm, cp or (with some restriction) hyposalinity.

+1

[BigJohnny]

Copper is just plain wrong in any situation - it's a poison that weakens or outright disables the fish's immune system which may open the door to all kinds of diseases, some way nastier than ich.

Copper is also only effective against ich which can be treated much better with TTM, CP or (with some restriction) hyposalinity.


+1
Why is copper the most popular method for treatment of ich then? Is Cupramine any gentler? Also most medicines are poisonous at a certain dose and therapeutic at others.

Is CP really much better for the fish? Where can one acquire cp and what testing equipment is necessary to monitor/use it. I've always been uncomfortable with the idea of copper but just can't do ttm due to my work/travel schedule. Also is CP proven to treat ich "better" ?

Is hypo less maintenance than ttm? I'm gone 3 days a week every week so I need something that my wife can monitor/not need to do much at all. She has zero experience and will actually be gone those same 3 days occasionally.

In 2 months max I will be working from home every day so I will be able to use any method however. That may already be the case by the time my tank finishes cycling. Just trying to learn about all methods as much as possible. TTM seems to be a popular choice with you vet reefers, can you guys both please explain to me your full QT protocols?

I will have a pair of a. ocellaris, midas blenny, firefish, chalk bass, rainford goby or green clown goby, and 2 Cleaner shrimp. (Too much for 50b?)

Plus tuxedo urchin and bunch of snails.

Also do you QT your CUC? If so how?

Is dipping corals in coral rx pro sufficient?

Any help/gameplan would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Big J

[ThRoewer]

Copper, like many nonsense it's deeply rooted in tradition and how things were done in the old days. But today we know better and have less toxic ways to clear fish of cryptocaryon.
TTM is probably the best and suitable for all fish, but depending on the fish and required tank size it can be labor intensive and a bit costly (you may go through a lot of water).
Hyposalinity is in my opinion easier and cheaper but it leaves a slight risk that certain strains of ich can survive.
CP is effective if done right but some fish (seahorses, pipefish, some wrasses) don't tolerate it. Most importantly, CP treats a variety of parasites: ich, velvet, uronema, likely also brook and possibly more. Some inverts like crabs and shrimp can handle it, but snails and all corals won't. If you want to try it: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder is CP and available without prescription from Amazon.

[BigJohnny]

Copper, like many nonsense it's deeply rooted in tradition and how things were done in the old days. But today we know better and have less toxic ways to clear fish of cryptocaryon.
TTM is probably the best and suitable for all fish, but depending on the fish and required tank size it can be labor intensive and a bit costly (you may go through a lot of water).
Hyposalinity is in my opinion easier and cheaper but it leaves a slight risk that certain strains of ich can survive.
CP is effective if done right but some fish (seahorses, pipefish, some wrasses) don't tolerate it. Most importantly, CP treats a variety of parasites: ich, velvet, uronema, likely also brook and possibly more. Some inverts like crabs and shrimp can handle it, but snails and all corals won't. If you want to try it: New Life Spectrum Ick-Shield Powder is CP and available without prescription from Amazon.
If I qt the above mentioned fish with CP and then prazipro + observation. Is that sufficient? Or do you do formalin just incase on clowns for brook

[snorvich]

Copper, hyposalinity, and CP only treat the infectious life cycle stage of ich which emerges in a variable time frame from the back end of the cryptocaryon irritans life cycle. That means for theronts emerging in a delayed fashion, the treatment period must catch those by being long enough. TTM eliminates cryptocaryon irritans by working on the highly deterministic front end of the life cycle by not allowing the infectious stage to emerge. Twelve days and you are done. Prophylactic chemical treatment to prevent cryptocaryon irritans is not the way to go. But everyone is free to do what they think best.

[BigJohnny]

Copper, hyposalinity, and CP only treat the infectious life cycle stage of ich which emerges in a variable time frame from the back end of the cryptocaryon irritans life cycle. That means for theronts emerging in a delayed fashion, the treatment period must catch those by being long enough. TTM eliminates cryptocaryon irritans by working on the highly deterministic front end of the life cycle by not allowing the infectious stage to emerge. Twelve days and you are done. Prophylactic chemical treatment to prevent cryptocaryon irritans is not the way to go. But everyone is free to do what they think best.

Interesting. I am currenlty unable to do TTM. How long would I have to quarantine with CP or hypo? Is hypo less effective?

[ThRoewer]

Even with all the chemical treatments you should treat in an HT and do at least one transfer (or thorough tank sterilization) each week. Otherwise you may need to treat way too long.
If you treat with chemicals inside the infected DT you need to treat for up to 11 weeks, which I deem way too long to be safe for the fish.

Hyposalinity is highly effective and works on preventing the protomont to encyst to create new infectious stages. It does however not affect those that are already encysted by the time you take the salinity down.
The only uncertainty with hyposalinity comes from two Cryptocaryon strains found at Taiwanese fish farms that turned out to be able to handle way lower salinities than safe for reef fish. I don't know if these have made it into the hobby trade but my guess would be not.
So if the infection isn't too progressed I would still give hyposalinity a shot. (in a hospital tank). If it turns out to be ineffective you can still instantly switch to TTM without the need of raising the salinity.

BTW: all you need for TTM are two plastic containers, a heater, one air pump and two airlines. Further you need a tank that is big enough to fit one of the containers in (or both).
The heater goes into the tank which is filled with freshwater and one of the containers to hold the fish go into the tank and is aerated .with the air pump. This setup will minimize the equipment that needs to be sterilized to just the container and the airline.

[snorvich]

Even with all the chemical treatments you should treat in an HT and do at least one transfer (or thorough tank sterilization) each week. Otherwise you may need to treat way too long.
If you treat with chemicals inside the infected DT you need to treat for up to 11 weeks, which I deem way too long to be safe for the fish.

Hyposalinity is highly effective and works on preventing the protomont to encyst to create new infectious stages. It does however not affect those that are already encysted by the time you take the salinity down.
The only uncertainty with hyposalinity comes from two Cryptocaryon strains found at Taiwanese fish farms that turned out to be able to handle way lower salinities than safe for reef fish. I don't know if these have made it into the hobby trade but my guess would be not.


Well, that is not the only uncertainty. There is also the problem of execution error.

[BigJohnny]

Even with all the chemical treatments you should treat in an HT and do at least one transfer (or thorough tank sterilization) each week. Otherwise you may need to treat way too long.
If you treat with chemicals inside the infected DT you need to treat for up to 11 weeks, which I deem way too long to be safe for the fish.

Hyposalinity is highly effective and works on preventing the protomont to encyst to create new infectious stages. It does however not affect those that are already encysted by the time you take the salinity down.
The only uncertainty with hyposalinity comes from two Cryptocaryon strains found at Taiwanese fish farms that turned out to be able to handle way lower salinities than safe for reef fish. I don't know if these have made it into the hobby trade but my guess would be not.
So if the infection isn't too progressed I would still give hyposalinity a shot. (in a hospital tank). If it turns out to be ineffective you can still instantly switch to TTM without the need of raising the salinity.

BTW: all you need for TTM are two plastic containers, a heater, one air pump and two airlines. Further you need a tank that is big enough to fit one of the containers in (or both).
The heater goes into the tank which is filled with freshwater and one of the containers to hold the fish go into the tank and is aerated .with the air pump. This setup will minimize the equipment that needs to be sterilized to just the container and the airline.

Haha ok well then how long does it take if you do one transfer each week with CP? also what is HT?

I can't do ttm due to travel, it's not a matter of equipment or cost. However I eventually will be able to do so and like your method. Here is the question though, is TTM 100% effective regardless of the stage the fish arrives in? Also how often are transfers necessary? If I could do every 4 days I could do TTM from the get go. However I would be too concerned to leave fish in a small container like that with no filtration for that long.

[BigJohnny]

Well, that is not the only uncertainty. There is also the problem of execution error.
Uncertainty basically makes hypo QT too risky IMO. Do it right or not at all.
I do have a digital refractometer[emoji6] , but the uncertainty regarding certain strains/stage of the cycle is a concern for me.

How do you do TTM snorvich? As far as schedule/equipment?

[snorvich]

Uncertainty basically makes hypo QT too risky IMO. Do it right or not at all.
I do have a digital refractometer[emoji6] , but the uncertainty regarding certain strains/stage of the cycle is a concern for me.

How do you do TTM snorvich? As far as schedule/equipment?

What is the standard error of the mean for the digital refractometer?

[snorvich]

Haha ok well then how long does it take if you do one transfer each week with CP? also what is HT?

I can't do ttm due to travel, it's not a matter of equipment or cost. However I eventually will be able to do so and like your method. Here is the question though, is TTM 100% effective regardless of the stage the fish arrives in? Also how often are transfers necessary? If I could do every 4 days I could do TTM from the get go. However I would be too concerned to leave fish in a small container like that with no filtration for that long.

Please read the TTM sticky (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428) for the answers to all of your questions. It makes no sense to reiterate here.

[ThRoewer]

... There is also the problem of execution error.

You have that problem with every method, even TTM.

[snorvich]

You have that problem with every method, even TTM.

That is clearly true. TTM can be messed up but the variables are more controllable. Hyposalinity as a treatment depends on factors such as the standard error of the mean in the refractometer being used as well as auto top off methods to control salinity.

[BigJohnny]

What is the standard error of the mean for the digital refractometer?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/06/25/c61fa471c47e5c850568514c077cf601.jpg

[BigJohnny]

Please read the TTM sticky (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428) for the answers to all of your questions. It makes no sense to reiterate here.

Thanks, I'm not aware of everything that currently exists on this forum so I appreciate the link.

[BigJohnny]

Roewer,

Snorvich answered the 2nd part of this post but the first was directed to you. Can you please elaborate on CP treatment? How do you use it?

Haha ok well then how long does it take if you do one transfer each week with CP? also what is HT?

[ThRoewer]

That is clearly true. TTM can be messed up but the variables are more controllable. Hyposalinity as a treatment depends on factors such as the standard error of the mean in the refractometer being used as well as auto top off methods to control salinity.

Yes, there are measurement insecurities like with everything else (i.e. copper tests). I don't agree that the refractometer errors are significant enough to mess up the treatment. The effective salinity range is larger than usually claimed here. Anything between 1.011 and 1.009 will work. And that isn't a small range.
Of course a refractometer that is to be used for hyposalinity treatment must be calibrated with distilled or RO water and not with a 35 ppt standard solution
(I never really trust those solutions fully anyway as a little evaporation can spoil it). You want it to be accurate at the low end of the scale.

As for evaporation - at the low salinities required for hyposalinity the effect of evaporation is significantly less than at regular reef tank salinities. I found manual top off in the morning and evening sufficient. A tank cover to limit evaporation would make it even more stable (and should be in place to protect the fish form jumping anyway).

The only argument against hyposalinity that holds water are the Taiwanese low salinity strains. But I don't think it's very likely that those made it here. And if you got them or done something wrong you will know after about a week of treatment.

Also I would only use hyposalinity as a treatment of visibly infected fish, never as prophylactic measure. For the latter TTM is the method of choice.

[BigJohnny]

Yes, there are measurement insecurities like with everything else (i.e. copper tests). I don't agree that the refractometer errors are significant enough to mess up the treatment. The effective salinity range is larger than usually claimed here. Anything between 1.011 and 1.009 will work. And that isn't a small range.
Of course a refractometer that is to be used for hyposalinity treatment must be calibrated with distilled or RO water and not with a 35 ppt standard solution
(I never really trust those solutions fully anyway as a little evaporation can spoil it). You want it to be accurate at the low end of the scale.

As for evaporation - at the low salinities required for hyposalinity the effect of evaporation is significantly less than at regular reef tank salinities. I found manual top off in the morning and evening sufficient. A tank cover to limit evaporation would make it even more stable (and should be in place to protect the fish form jumping anyway).

The only argument against hyposalinity that holds water are the Taiwanese low salinity strains. But I don't think it's very likely that those made it here. And if you got them or done something wrong you will know after about a week of treatment.

Also I would only use hyposalinity as a treatment of visibly infected fish, never as prophylactic measure. For the latter TTM is the method of choice.
So wait, you don't even use CP?

[ThRoewer]

I use CP when I suspect velvet or uronema on new fish.

I never had the chance to use it against an ich outbreak, but others used it with great success. The issues with it are that long term exposure may cause "unexplained" deaths of fish. That's why I would only use it in a QT/HT and only for 2 to 3 weeks. After those 2 or 3 weeks the fish need to be transferred to an ich free tank for further observation.
CP can not be used on any member of the Syngnathidae family (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSyngnathidae&ei=l8KMVa70JdO7ogST9LWIAg&usg=AFQjCNFUTEIPCKUC90K-KCgP0AQv895bag&sig2=Q8XJK6xWiciCGz248uu25Q) (seahorses, pipefish and their relatives). There are also some wrasses that won't tolerate it. With these you are better off using TTM.

Hyposalinity works well but may require an extra week for raising the salinity. So I would only use it with a full outbreak and too many fish to handle through TTM.

[BigJohnny]

I use CP when I suspect velvet or uronema on new fish.

I never had the chance to use it against an ich outbreak, but others used it with great success. The issues with it are that long term exposure may cause "unexplained" deaths of fish. That's why I would only use it in a QT/HT and only for 2 to 3 weeks. After those 2 or 3 weeks the fish need to be transferred to an ich free tank for further observation.
CP can not be used on any member of the Syngnathidae family (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FSyngnathidae&ei=l8KMVa70JdO7ogST9LWIAg&usg=AFQjCNFUTEIPCKUC90K-KCgP0AQv895bag&sig2=Q8XJK6xWiciCGz248uu25Q) (seahorses, pipefish and their relatives). There are also some wrasses that won't tolerate it. With these you are better off using TTM.

Hyposalinity works well but may require an extra week for raising the salinity. So I would only use it with a full outbreak and too many fish to handle through TTM.

Ok I'm strictly talking new fish here. What is your prophylactic qt protocol for new fish?

TTM for crypto then observation+prazipro for flukes etc, and when you suspect velvet or uronema, CP for 2-3 weeks then observation?

[BigJohnny]

Unexplained deaths? That's concerning.....

[ThRoewer]

Mail order fish get 2 weeks of CP in a sterile tank.

Fish I select at a store and that look and behave healthy get a Formalin MS dip per bottle instructions and then go into a QT for observation - usually for a minimum of 2 months.
These QTs are decorated with Real Reef life rock that I had previously seeded in one of my tigger pot cultures or in one of my display tanks.
Treatment will only be performed on an as needed basis (so far I only had to treat intestinal parasites/infections).
The fish will go through TTM before going into the DT.

As for the unexplained deaths with CP - those were reported by people that were doing treatments with CP in their FOWLR display tanks and occurred past 4 weeks of treatment.
That's why I would advise against using it in a DT where it requires a minimum treatment duration of 11 weeks.
If you treat in a hospital tank you can move the fish to clean quarantine tank after 2 to 4 weeks of treatment (I go with 2). This of course only if they have been symptom free for at least a week.

You can also medicate the TTM water with CP and PaziPro to fight ich (TTM), velvet and uronema (CP) and flukes (PraziPro) all at once. That way you get your fish cleaned up in two weeks and the rest of the quarantine time is just observation for whatever other diseases they may have come with.

[DrPat]

wow this is an endless discussion as stated above many methods work. and each have drawbacks.
TTM WORKS FINE IF ITS ONLY CRYPTO BUT IF OODINIUM IS IN THE MIX YOUR IN TROUBLE.I have always used hypo for 2 weeks @ 1.012 and chelated copper. Copper power to be exact and it is relatively non toxic and stays effective for 1 month.after two weeks i gradually allow salinity to increase by not topping off.When the qt is equal to the display tank salinity I remove the copper via carbon and keep the fish in qt for at least 90 days. ick is eradicated from the qt because the copper kills the free swimming form and the embedded forms have all dropped off or crushed during the hypo. this method also kills oodinium and if you suspect brook go down to 1.010 but not more than 2 weeks or you will cause irreversible kidney damage.I certain that some will disagree with me but its safe and most of all it works. the QT temp is at 85F during the first 2 weeks and heavily aerated.with a course bubble glass air stone A seasoned sponge filter which was aged in the display tank sump WORKS FINE AND IS UNAFFECTED by copper power.

[BigJohnny]

wow this is an endless discussion as stated above many methods work. and each have drawbacks.
TTM WORKS FINE IF ITS ONLY CRYPTO BUT IF OODINIUM IS IN THE MIX YOUR IN TROUBLE.I have always used hypo for 2 weeks @ 1.012 and chelated copper. Copper power to be exact and it is relatively non toxic and stays effective for 1 month.after two weeks i gradually allow salinity to increase by not topping off.When the qt is equal to the display tank salinity I remove the copper via carbon and keep the fish in qt for at least 90 days. ick is eradicated from the qt because the copper kills the free swimming form and the embedded forms have all dropped off or crushed during the hypo. this method also kills oodinium and if you suspect brook go down to 1.010 but not more than 2 weeks or you will cause irreversible kidney damage.I certain that some will disagree with me but its safe and most of all it works. the QT temp is at 85F during the first 2 weeks and heavily aerated.with a course bubble glass air stone A seasoned sponge filter which was aged in the display tank sump WORKS FINE AND IS UNAFFECTED by copper power.
Endless discussion is a good thing brotha, that's what we're here for! Thanks for your input!