View Full Version : Carbon Dosing for Dinos and Cyano?
Quiet_Ivy
07/18/2015, 11:24 PM
Won't go into the whole incredibly sad and depressing story here, but I've got an extremely toxic form of dinoflagellates. Trying to treat it by 'dirtying up' my system to encourage green algae or diatoms has resulted in cyano covering about half my sand bed. No green algae (my Chaeto is just hanging in there.) The dinos are worse.
I've had undetectable nitrate/phosphate since this started. This morning ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate undetectable (salifert kits). Ca 380, alk 8ish, still don't have an Mg test. Running a lot of carbon, skimming very wet.
Should I try dosing vinegar and a bacteria source (mb7 or prodiobio, whichever my LFS has)? Can bacteria out-compete the dinos? Do I need measurable nitrate to try it?
I am about ready to pour bleach into the lot, it's just so sad.
ivy
Sorry to hear. Don't know if organic carbon dosing would help or hurt or if a bacterial concoction would . The heterotrophic bacteria need nitrogen, phoaphate and organic carbon but get a lot of thir nitrogen directly form ammonia. So if it's a fed tank with fish you may not need measuraeable nitrate though in most cases some nitrate even jsut a tnge seems to help.
There is a long thread on dinogfalgellates where a number of approaches are discussed. I can't find the link at the moment but you might get an idea or two from it.
Fortunately, I don't get them and on the few occasions when I've inadvertently introduced a frag with them into the tank they perished quickly. I do dose vodka and vinegar and run pH between 8.15 to 8.35 along with alk in the 9dkh range. No one seems to have found a certain way to erradicate them.
When my friend's show tank in his lfs was infested several years ago.,we raised teh pH to 8.4 and removed tehm with a trukey baster twic in one week. The ycame back after a month. Repeted terh process and they never cam back. Just one case though.
Reefvet
07/19/2015, 12:18 AM
There is a long thread on dinogfalgellates where a number of approaches are discussed. I can't find the link at the moment but you might get an idea or two from it.
This is the thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000)
tkeracer619
07/19/2015, 02:01 AM
salifert phosphate is useless for this.
8dkh is not helping
pouring bleach will only get rid of it this time around, you really need to beat it.
What have you tried to do to beat it? You say toxic form but they all are, what do you mean by that? You also say you won't go into the long story but how else are we going to give you good answers without the entire backstory, even if it sucks.
Dinos are the bends but it's usually solvable without nuking the tank.
downbeach
07/19/2015, 03:14 AM
Here's another article on the subject:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/blog/how-i-beat-dinoflagellates-and-the-lessons-i-learned
Quiet_Ivy
07/19/2015, 12:06 PM
Sorry to hear. Don't know if organic carbon dosing would help or hurt or if a bacterial concoction would . The heterotrophic bacteria need nitrogen, phoaphate and organic carbon but get a lot of thir nitrogen directly form ammonia. So if it's a fed tank with fish you may not need measuraeable nitrate though in most cases some nitrate even jsut a tnge seems to help.
I just wonder if something that doesn't show up on test kits is going on in my tank. The system isn't reacting normally. Dinos must be consuming *something* but there's no obvious nutrient issues. My LFS confirms all my chem tests. Had one clown goby, added before I knew the algae was dinos. I did use rock from my brother in law, who had a huge tank and got out of the hobby due to one too many accidents. He didn't use any biocides I'm aware of, and the rock was washed thoroughly and sat out over a -40C winter.
I'm wondering if the usual bacterial population somehow got nuked (by the dinos?), or I have a 'wrong' bacterial population. It's very odd that I don't have any signs of normal green algae and never have had. I didn't add a fish until the tank had been up for 4 months, and a skimmer at 5.5 months so ammonia may not have been high since the cycle. DOC should've been through the roof!
When my friend's show tank in his lfs was infested several years ago.,we raised teh pH to 8.4 and removed tehm with a trukey baster twic in one week. The ycame back after a month. Repeted terh process and they never cam back. Just one case though.
I read that entire thread, and had to go off and think about it for a couple of days. Gave me a headache.. Did you use kalk to get the ph up?
thanks,
Ivy
Quiet_Ivy
07/19/2015, 12:07 PM
This is the thread (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000)
Thanks, I was posting and lurking in that thread, but it fell off the board.
ivy
Quiet_Ivy
07/19/2015, 01:40 PM
salifert phosphate is useless for this.
8dkh is not helping
pouring bleach will only get rid of it this time around, you really need to beat it.
What have you tried to do to beat it? You say toxic form but they all are, what do you mean by that? You also say you won't go into the long story but how else are we going to give you good answers without the entire backstory, even if it sucks.
Dinos are the bends but it's usually solvable without nuking the tank.
I don't really want to bleach the tank. I'm just upset about the whole situation. Everything but my corals has died, and I don't think my ricordea, leptastrea are going to last much longer. Toxic because once it hit a threshold all my snails died, and since then it's been a cascade of awful. I've lost my crabs, sexy shrimp, most of the visible pod population, brittle star, a few bristleworms (!) and my clown goby. I fear the system is so out of balance I may need to start over. I could probably have poured actual bleach in the tank and had fewer things die!
I've posted in that long thread on dinos, but it's fallen off the board. So far I've tried:
-scraping it off and filter floss media (ongoing although this seems to provoke pod die offs even with filter socks, new carbon and being careful to siphon the dead stuff)
-lots of GAC changed weekly (ongoing)
-3 day blackouts (no effect on dinos, did seem to encourage the cyano)
-reduced light period to 4hours (no effect, ongoing)
-moved powerheads around to increase flow (no effect)
-no water changes (made it worse)
-large water changes with better salt (did 50%, 30% 20% a few days apart. Did this 3 times. Change water ro/di, from LFS, tested beforehand. Made it worse. Prev salt Reef Crystals, new one H2O. Frogspawn likes the new salt, perhaps because the alk stays higher)
-siphoned the heck out of my sand bed (ssb, maybe 2cm. made cyano much worse. SB is nearly lifeless! Also forms odd clumps. Does not seem right )
-added new sand (to encourage diatoms. no effect)
-new light bulb (no effect)
-bought a skimmer (no effect but having a lot of trouble adjusting it due to lack of ATO. Getting maybe 20mL very light brown skimmate daily on wettest setting)
-deliberately overfeeding (NLS nano pellets, oyster eggs and ovarian tissue) made worse)
-raising pH and alkalinity with Seachem reef buffer (pH won't stay over 8. Swings irritating corals)
I haven't added anything but alk/ca supplements. Brand is tailored aquatics. Why do you say 8dkh is bad? My tank generally stayed at 7.5 with IO salt, 8 to 8.3 with H2O. Had about 4 weeks of wild alk swings right after the cycle- never found out why. I hadn't added or changed anything. Did this kill something that let the dinos explode? I don't know.
One of the annoying features of this gunk is that it really doesn't show up well in photos. My LFS doesn't think it actually *is* dinos because "it doesn't look that bad, I've seen much worse." It's a very light brown/yellow with short strings of goo. My ipod makes pictures look yellow anyway so the tank looks pretty good in the photos. In person there's a nasty film of yellowy dots and colourless goo covers everything.
Tank shot early May -mass snail die off was mid May. You can't see very well in this pic but the back wall, and the glass near the sand is covered with dinos):
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/001_zpsk8ciyvfv.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/001_zpsk8ciyvfv.jpg.html)
Close up of the glass -this is late May or very early June I think. After snails all died and I hadn't cleaned the glass. One of the few photos where it actually looks as bad as it is
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/gunk2_zpsnsxhpop1.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/gunk2_zpsnsxhpop1.jpg.html)
Tank shot June 10th? I think-here comes the cyano. Blurry look is due to goo on the glass. Green stuff in the upper right rock seems to be coralline. It isn't fuzzy and doesn't scrape off.
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/full%20tank%20shot%20june_zpsqycrqixe.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/full%20tank%20shot%20june_zpsqycrqixe.jpg.html)
Here's one today. Again, that yellow look is not just bad photo quality, it's stuff on the glass:
http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q561/Quiet_Ivy/28g%20Reef%20Tank/July%20pictures/July%20tank%20pics%20009_zpshviqzcwj.jpg (http://s1164.photobucket.com/user/Quiet_Ivy/media/28g%20Reef%20Tank/July%20pictures/July%20tank%20pics%20009_zpshviqzcwj.jpg.html)
thanks in advance
Ivy
tkeracer619
07/19/2015, 04:10 PM
I don't believe you are fighting dinoflagellates but instead diatoms. Sorry I was posting late and misread 8dkh as 8 ph.
Diatoms feed of silicates, what are you using for RODI water?
How old is this tank?
Where did you get the rock? Was it live, dry, cured ect...
Do you run GFO?
When the snails died, where did you buy them and how long had you had them at that point?
Dinos
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/19813651716_fd4bc54209_o.jpg
Diatoms
http://www.freewebs.com/mparks123/Diatoms%20on%20LS.JPG
Quiet_Ivy
07/19/2015, 05:57 PM
I don't believe you are fighting dinoflagellates but instead diatoms. Sorry I was posting late and misread 8dkh as 8 ph.
Diatoms feed of silicates, what are you using for RODI water?
How old is this tank?
Where did you get the rock? Was it live, dry, cured ect...
Do you run GFO?
When the snails died, where did you buy them and how long had you had them at that point?
Dinos
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/19813651716_fd4bc54209_o.jpg
Diatoms
http://www.freewebs.com/mparks123/Diatoms%20on%20LS.JPG
I'm still trying to borrow a microscope to check, but I really don't think this is diatoms. Diatoms just shouldn't be toxic and they have a gritty texture. This stuff has the texture of mucous and disintegrates if touched. It forms very short fronds of colourless goo. I posted on WWM and they id'd it as dinos.
I had a lot of diatoms after the cycle-in fact that's why I got snails. 10 snails, different sizes, Astrea spp, March 11th which was day 50 of the tank. From my LFS frag tank. They were all dead by June 2, I started wondering why I wasn't seeing snails everywhere a week earlier. Tank just passed 6 months, so fairly new.
Rock: from my bro in law. Totally dry, had been outside for a year. I washed it very thoroughly and soaked in RO but no treatments otherwise. He didn't have any algae, but he did have every other pest known to reefing. He said he'd used flatworm exit but no other chemicals. Had an sps dominated reef.
Water: ro/di from LFS. 0tds, no phosphates. Don't have a silicate test. Occasional top offs with distilled or ro water bought from supermarket. Our local tapwater has ridiculous hardness, tds, nitrates and chloramine. I don't see a listing in the quality report for silicates but I wouldn't be surprised if it was high. We get our water from the river which runs through town. I bred cichlids in it for years, treating only with dechlorinator.
I don't run GFO. Phosphate's always been 0.03 or less (Salifert) and no green algae so I thought I was ok. I very likely should get some!
thanks for the advice
ivy
tkeracer619
07/19/2015, 06:27 PM
Snails can take several months to die if they were improperly acclimated somewhere along the way or shipping didn't go smoothly. If they got them all at the same time it is possible they didn't ship well and the die off surely didn't help with your situation.
I suspect this may be a source water issue combined with the dry rock. It likely has phosphates bound in it and as the tank matures the bacteria could very well be purging the rock of its phosphates. All types of algae use phosphate and I bet if you hit the tank with gfo things will get better.
You may want to consider an RO system, but since you have chloramines you need to be careful and make sure that it doesn't break through the prefilters.
Spectrapure has a great deal on a chloramine unit. I bought one last year.
http://spectrapure.com/RO-RODI/RODI-SYSTEMS/Chloramine-Removal-90-GPD-RO-DI-System
A hanna 736ulr phosphorus checker may be a good test kit to purchase since phosphate binds to the substrate it can sometimes be difficult to interpret the results. It will however test much lower than the kit you are using.
I would completely black the tank out for a week by wrapping black trash bags around it and turning off the lights as well as run GFO in a reactor and see where this gets you. At 6 months these things are going to be common. With proper husbandry and treatments these sort of things will work themselves out. Keep your head up, we've all been through this monster at one point or another.
I just wonder if something that doesn't show up on test kits is going on in my tank. The system isn't reacting normally. Dinos must be consuming *something* but there's no obvious nutrient issues. My LFS confirms all my chem tests. Had one clown goby, added before I knew the algae was dinos. I did use rock from my brother in law, who had a huge tank and got out of the hobby due to one too many accidents. He didn't use any biocides I'm aware of, and the rock was washed thoroughly and sat out over a -40C winter.
It's possible the rock was exposed to a toxin of some sort ; might try some poly filter.
Did you use kalk to get the ph up?
Yes.IIRC.
thanks,
Ivy
Quiet_Ivy
07/20/2015, 12:38 PM
Snails can take several months to die if they were improperly acclimated somewhere along the way or shipping didn't go smoothly. If they got them all at the same time it is possible they didn't ship well and the die off surely didn't help with your situation.
I suspect this may be a source water issue combined with the dry rock. It likely has phosphates bound in it and as the tank matures the bacteria could very well be purging the rock of its phosphates. All types of algae use phosphate and I bet if you hit the tank with gfo things will get better.
You may want to consider an RO system, but since you have chloramines you need to be careful and make sure that it doesn't break through the prefilters.
Spectrapure has a great deal on a chloramine unit. I bought one last year.
http://spectrapure.com/RO-RODI/RODI-SYSTEMS/Chloramine-Removal-90-GPD-RO-DI-System
A hanna 736ulr phosphorus checker may be a good test kit to purchase since phosphate binds to the substrate it can sometimes be difficult to interpret the results. It will however test much lower than the kit you are using.
I would completely black the tank out for a week by wrapping black trash bags around it and turning off the lights as well as run GFO in a reactor and see where this gets you. At 6 months these things are going to be common. With proper husbandry and treatments these sort of things will work themselves out. Keep your head up, we've all been through this monster at one point or another.
Well, I added a conservative 30mL of rowaphos in a felt bag yesterday. Assuming silicon uptake's the same as phosphate, it should make a noticeable difference if I do have diatoms. I think the recommended for my tank is ~ 20gallons times 1ml/gallon times estimated 2-4x bound up in rocks =40 to 80mL I'll go to 60mL in a week if there's no change. I don't want to shock my Euphyllia who are having enough issues. Reading up on phosphate problems, I see that there was a problem with Kent brand carbon leaching phosphate and/or heavy metals. I haven't used that particular brand, but I've sure been buying the inexpensive stuff. Perhaps I should try some polyfilter. If rowaphos makes a difference I will happily buy a hanna checker. The low range one measures actual phosphorus, right? Not phosphate?
I have an ro/di system on order. Yea chloramine's going to be an issue. Local people tell me we have to replace the membrane more frequently. At worst my tea will taste a lot better.
Thanks for all the advice
Ivy
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