Opposing goals? Softies, SPS and GHA...

[mpderksen]

So I turned off my GFO/Carbon reactor for a few months. My SPS was growing great. Color was solid, and encrusting as at an all time high. I even had to increase my Ca dosing to keep up by about 50%! But then I noticed a large amount of GHA growing in my overflow. Also, the zoa colony of Rastas that had been dividing regularly started to melt away.
It seems that the conditions for great SPS growth also allow GHA to spread. Maybe they both like semi-dirty water? But I need to find a solid balance for a mixed reef. I used about a half cup of GFO and carbon (high capacity BRS and ROX). Too much?
Obviously I'd love SPS and softie growth, but keep the GHA at bay. Help?

[Potsy]

There might be too many variables to establish a cause-effect relationship between the algae, sps growth, nutrients, and zoa meltdown. However, my corals (mixed reef with mostly lps/soft and a few sps) are looking their best and growing steadily with my Hanna meter giving me a phosphate reading of .18. Other than some patches of bubble algae, I have no gha anywhere in the tank. I did put my phosphate reactor back online with low flow and a small about of gfo to lower the levels a bit just to be safe.

I don't think the zoanthids would have melted away in higher nutrient water.

[hbrochs]

I am struggling with a similar situation in my tank. My SPS seem to like slightly dirtier water. When I spaced out my water changes more, and removed the GFO the SPS brightened up and grew more. So did the Green Hair Algae. Now I've had improvement in the GHA by dosing NoPox 10ml a day in my 80 gallon tank.
My acans don't seem as happy. Hard to please everyone at the same time.

[CHSUB]

imo, ime, all corals do better in low nutrient environments. softies, sps's, lps's, zoa's; whatever! it's just that softies appear to be more tolerant of higher nutrients, which also encourage algae of many kinds.

[mpderksen]

Not really fair to ask my question without having some test results. I'll get some for ya'll. My Hanna isn't the ultra low one. I'm pretty sure it's the 714? In the past, I would just change the GFO when I saw it hit 0.03. 0.18 seems crazy high, but maybe we are talking about different units, or I'm testing wrong. Hard to tell coincidence from true correlation, but but I do believe my SPS growth was improved when I shut down the reactor for a few months. But I did it when I won a big GHA battle, so hard to tell. Also, since the SPS growth is in terms of weeks/months, maybe I just had better glasses? No other real way to explain the increased demand on my 2-part calcium though.
I'm going to black out the cover of the overflow so the GHA can't grow there anymore. In the last clump, there were some strong, long single threads that were several inches long, and tough. Never seen THAT before.
Also, the growth improved about the time I added both the DOS for AWC and the autofeeder (first anthias, so it wasn't an option anymore). I went two weeks without touching in, and when I got back, the whole thing looked amazing. Cleaned the skimmer and only a little glass scraping and it was good as new.

[CHSUB]

It is great that your reef is doing well and the changes you made are having a positive effect. However, the conclusion you are drawing from those results are directly opposite from scientific studies and years of experienced reefers conclusions. There will always be exception to the “rules”. Nevertheless, it is my opinion, the conclusion you are making are incorrect.

[mpderksen]

It is great that your reef is doing well and the changes you made are having a positive effect. However, the conclusion you are drawing from those results are directly opposite from scientific studies and years of experienced reefers conclusions. There will always be exception to the “rules”. Nevertheless, it is my opinion, the conclusion you are making are incorrect.


Well, I came exactly for the purpose of learning from those with more experience. Can you clarify where I'm off the rails? I highly doubt I'm an exception. Temporary success doesn't make me comfortable with how I'm managing my reef. The better you explain how I can improve, rather than just saying I'm wrong, the more I'll learn.

[Potsy]

I think CHSUB is skeptical regarding your conclusion that sps prefer semi-dirty water. There are some reefers with mature sps tanks featuring high nitrate and phosphate levels, but they are the exception. One of the TOTM has nitrates kept at 20ppm + and another tank featured in a thread on phosphate & sps measured phosphate at 2.0! However, the VAST majority of healthy, mature sps reefs maintain low nitrate and phosphate levels.

[mpderksen]

Gotcha. That makes sense and I would prefer to follow successful trends, generally. The trick is that there are so many factors to consider. I probably am doing and NOT doing some things out of sheer ignorance that most people take for granted. An example could be target feeding or some coral food supplement that I don't do. Maybe it's as extreme as LED vs. MH create different nutritional requirements that I just don't know about.
I don't think things can be taken in isolation. So many inter playing factors. It would be very naive of me to assume that there is such a thing. I do try to only change one thing at a time. If I were to add a turf scrubber and upgrade my pumps at the same time, it would be hard to give credit to one or the other for a reduction in GHA, for example. At the same time, the increase in flow could agitate my softies, etc. unexpected consequences, right?
So let me return to the intent of my OP: am I best to keep my reactors running, changing regularly and attempt overall low Phosphate and Nitrate levels for the health of a mixed reef? I define health as, good color and growth of both Zoas and SPS, while having little to no algae.

[ReefWreak]

You could try running your tank as dirty as possible without your SPS browning out or receeding or algae taking over.

I think there is this current trend of "now that I've hit ULNS (Ultra Low Nutrient System), my colors are very pale, how do I color them back up again?" and the answer is by adding nutrients back into the mix.

Specifically for zoanthids, I've always had them grow prolifically in my tanks whether high nutrient or low nutrient, so I would say that them melting away is something you might want to consider outside the spectrum of nitrates and phosphates. Maybe too much flow? Increased water clarity or bulb/light changes that are burning them?

I think that the safest thing to do is try to keep NO3/PO4 at 0. If you have mastered that, and your colors are light and you're unhappy, then you can start bringing it back up, either through increased feeding, decreased skimming, increased AA dosing, etc. But just increase it enough until you start losing color and/or growing algae. A very delicate balancing act, and why I recommend at first trying to keep at or near 0 on nitrate and phosphate.

[CHSUB]

I think CHSUB is skeptical regarding your conclusion that sps prefer semi-dirty water. There are some reefers with mature sps tanks featuring high nitrate and phosphate levels, but they are the exception. One of the TOTM has nitrates kept at 20ppm + and another tank featured in a thread on phosphate & sps measured phosphate at 2.0! However, the VAST majority of healthy, mature sps reefs maintain low nitrate and phosphate levels.

yes, said very well. maybe, the GFO was stripping the tank of all available po4. now with "some" po4 available the coral's zooanthellea are providing the coral with its necessary nutients?

[Sk8r]

COrals in general aren't fond of phosphate. You shut down your GFO, but your rock and sand are probably continuing to leach out phosphate from inside, and as it accumulates, your GHA comes back and your corals get unhappy.

[mpderksen]

COrals in general aren't fond of phosphate. You shut down your GFO, but your rock and sand are probably continuing to leach out phosphate from inside, and as it accumulates, your GHA comes back and your corals get unhappy.


Gotcha. Follow up question out of curiosity: since GHA does such a great job of sequestering Phosphate, why didn't my SPS look great during my outbreak?
Second, the only NO3 test I have is the basic API one, which I agree is useless for low level testing. Which one do people like? And am I getting reasonably solid numbers from the Hanna if it's NOT the ultra low one?

[PhaneSoul]

Except i dont think algae is great at holding onto the phos. Its leaky, it uses it and a majority goes back into the water.

Your gfo use sucked up all the phos at the time, gha couldnt compete and neither could the corals (remember corals host different types of algaes and bacterias and recieve food from them) so a little inorganic nutrients may be needed from the water column, which was in short supply.

So nutrients drop low enough and the gha stops growing, you shut off the reactor and now you have a low amount of nutrients, low enough to where the coral are happy, still high enough to where there are extra and thus gha is making a return.

Thats what im thinking.

[mpderksen]

I think I like what you think. Lol.
Turns out I have the Hanna 713 (I knew it wasn't the ultra low, but got the number incorrect). The way I've been doing it, until recently when vacation threw me off schedule, was to check about weekly, and once I saw 3ppm I changed out 1/4 cup of both carbon (High capacity) and GFO. (75 gallon tank, BTW). It would be back to reading 0. But let me ask if 3ppm is really the units I'm looking for. Or do I need to get the Ultra low one and watch levels in the ppb range. Is 3ppm really too much?
Since my nitrate test is useless, please recommend a kit. No way I'm starting Carbon dosing with vodka or sugar unless I know my numbers.
Last question is probably way more open and lots of options: currently my feeder provides NLS pellets 3 times per day. The fish are all fat and happy. I feed some PE Mysis rinsed in a net, a few times each week. About once/week I add 10ml of phytoplankton. That's it. I don't add any other Aminos or supplements for coral. I have my 2-part dialed in for Alk 9-10, and Ca 420-450. What else would be recommended?
No coralline on the rocks, but I do have to scrape if off the acrylic every few weeks, and the back is nearly covered in it. All the fish and inverts seem very healthy, and other than 1 Aptasia, which I'll kill today, I'm generally very happy with the tank. Just think I could improve my husbandry.

[mpderksen]

Short edit to the above: just did all my testing. The Hanna units are 0.00, not 000. My Ca had crept up to 522 and Alk at 8.5, so a little tweaking of the dosing pumps is in order. Current dosing is 4 times/day, in 4 small doses, with the Alk and Ca 30 min apart. I'm now at 20 ml/day of Alk and 40 ml/day Ca. SG is 1.025, so we're good there. Chiller kicked on and is maintaining the temp 77-78°F.
Questions above still valid, but wanted to supply additional information.

[CHSUB]

i like Salifert for no3 and imo the hanna you have is fine.

[mpderksen]

Got my kit yesterday. I ordered the Red Sea one right before your recommendation.... Assuming I did it correctly, I have zero Nitrates (which actually means "below detection limit"). The next color up is 0.25, so it's certainly less than that. I don't carbon dose, and feed 3x/day. Is that number really very likely? I see so may posts about bringing Nitrates down, I've done nothing special, nor am I really experienced. Could I simply have a nice balance and am having success?
In sales we have a saying, "even a blind squirrel can sometimes find a nut". Maybe that's me?