PDA

View Full Version : First Impression: Kessil A360W / Radion XR 15w Pro


5pacey
08/15/2015, 08:48 AM
I am not going to do any in-depth reviews, those have been provided by others in great depth and much more detail than I can provide. Just wanted to share my first impression and ask for your counter opinions.

The Kessil

I've installed the Kessil couple months ago over my 30 Gal temp/holding tank and pretty much was greeted with what one would expect - lots of light and just as much very cool shimmer almost exactly the same as you see when you're snorkling in some tropical shallow with white sand and some reefs. Beautiful, clear happy/sunny look.

Sunny vs blue is adjustable with a knob or 0-10v capable controller. Intensity also adjustable w/another knob or another 0-10v control channel. Pretty much perfect, with exception of low end intensity adjustment, which basically cuts out at 5-10 % and the light just turns off. Annoying for sure because I would like the full dawn to dusk capability and this pretty much rules it out. Not completely, but its not going to be full dawn and full dusk effect for sure. Again, not the end of the world, but a thorn / imperfection. And I know many argue that this is meaningless.

So.. I was like, meh... ok... Radion's going to beat that for sure. Its got uber controllability and everyone (including the manufacturer) says that they are 0-100% adjustable. I'll be able to control it w/the WXM module, they have awesome mounts now, all coolness etc etc. So basically its the light to beat right?

The Radion

Ok, so I had a XR 15W Pro laying around for couple months now for another project that I haven't fully defined yet, and decided to just stick it on the same tank and see how it beats the Kessil... Especially now since Radions are on the Web wide 10% sale and it would be a good time to grab few XR30 Pros just so I get them @ a good price. But... wanted to make sure there aren't any gotchas even though I've been drooling over Radions for some time as the coolest thing since sliced bread in LED lighting.

So I unseal the light box, the mount box, put them together, shove the Kessil on an ugly gooseneck to the back and turn it down to 0%, put the cool Radion on a cool mount up on the tank and flip the switch.

Aaand... wow, nice light, lots of shimmer too... BUT...! Its a freaking disco light show! ... Suddenly all the posts I read about many lights having the disco ball effect issue started coming back and flooding my memory. I always attributed them to the cheapo lights out there and DIY's w/crappy layouts and bad optics... but a Radion!? Disappointed hugely, my excitement bubble completely deflated.

I played w/controls a bit (just the buttons, so not full 100% control), and yes it does 0-100%-0 intensity and you can cycle through different color modes etc. But each and every one has the red shimmer ghosts like an old TV with really badly screwed up convergence setup between the RGB channels.

Not sure here / state of confusion and disbelief...

Q1: Have I been spoiled by the Kessil and the dense matrix LED cluster with a single lens and perfect color blending all into sunny white with smooth blue intensity adjustment?

Q2: Is the Radion I have somehow defective?

Q3: Is it simply a matter of turning off the Red and/or tweaking the different color channels to remove/minimize the bad convergence effect?

Here are my thoughts so far:

a) I suspect that Radion I have is fine - have no reason to believe there is anything wrong w/it.

b) All lights with LED clusters w/separate optics per emmiter may have the convergence problem.

c) With some finer color channel tweaking on the Radion (which I have not done), I could probably minimize or at least reduce the currntly just completely jarring disco ball effect, but this will in effect remove the benefit of having some of the colors in the Radion matrix.

d) Yes I effectively have been spoiled by the Kessil.

e) I really want(ed) to like the Radion, and was mentally totally shocked that real life effect was so much inferior (purely due to misconvergent shimmer issue) to the Kessil. I am seriously gravitating back towards the Kessil camp now having seen & experienced the two lighs side by side. I started appreciating the excitement and wanting people have been expressing towards the new Kessil AP700 panel. Its flat (if anyone had a problem w/the coke can form factor of the Kessils so far - which I don't, I actually like that kind a), its basically 2 A360's sort a, but I am sure newer technology (both emitters and optics) etc etc. What I don't know is if it will do full 0-100%-0 intensity adjustment, or still has the annoying 5-10% cut-off. It uses a Meanwell driver and I know from my DIY days that they used to have the cut-off when I played w/Cree emitters and meanwells, so I fear that the AP700 may have it too. But... its not stated anywhere one way or another, and I have not seen the ligh in person so I can only hope that its full 0-100%. If it were, then its a spot on perfect light. Radions don't come close. Even though its effectively $150 more expensive for the same amount of light as a XR 30W Pro, if you compare MSRP.

f) They are both essentially 90W lights w/a single matrix from two top manufacturers, yet so different at the same time.


What do you think / know / heard / experienced?

Best,

Spacey :D

Mark75
08/15/2015, 09:05 AM
Thank you for the review!

I am currently selecting a light for my 24x24x20 cube and these two are top on my list. I also really like the "look" of a tank lighted by a Kessil but there is so much success with Radions I feel I have to give them a shot. I am having trouble finding a gen 3 Radion local to see in person.

ReefPharmer
08/15/2015, 10:43 AM
i run 4 radions over my tank and dont have the disco effect you speak of. I did try kessils as well and didnt like the shading it provided on a single light (over a smaller tank).

I do not use red much as i noted it adds to algae growth and not much to coral, but thats a personal preference .

dkeller_nc
08/15/2015, 02:36 PM
You're correct that you will see some convergence mis-match with all array-type LED units. My Radion G3 Pro has some degree of this effect at the sand level in my tank, but I don't even notice it. And it's a heck of a lot less pronounced than when I had two A.I. Vegas over the same tank.

Having said that, the only "perfect" light other than the tropical sun is a metal halide with T5HO supplementation - ultimate in full spectrum and broad coverage (minimal shadowing). At the cost of bulb replacement, additional electricity usage, heat gain and little controllability.

IMO, the downside to the Kessil other than what you mention (low-voltage cutoff from not using PWM LED drivers) is the two-channel control limitations. A considerably improvement, IMO, would be a dense-cluster array, PWM drivers, and 6 or 7 channel spectrum control. Which is a distinct possibility with whatever EcoTech is planning to replace the G3 Pro and XR15w at MACNA next month.

One potential bad thing is the strong possibility that EcoTech and others will get rid of the wireless box in favor of phone/tablet wireless app controllability. That's great when the light's new, perhaps not so great when it's 6 years old and the phone OS's have long since made the app obsolete.

Griff500
08/15/2015, 03:27 PM
Especially now since Radions are on the Web wide 10% sale

Really? Where?

dkeller_nc
08/15/2015, 03:33 PM
Bulk Reef Supply, SaltwaterAquarium.com, Marine Depot, etc...

Griff500
08/15/2015, 03:39 PM
Bulk Reef Supply, SaltwaterAquarium.com, Marine Depot, etc...

So when you said 'web wide' you meant in the US.

5pacey
08/15/2015, 03:50 PM
So when you said 'web wide' you meant in the US.
Sorry... I was presumptuous... since I know EcoTech doesn't do sales normally, and when they do its everywhere they sell their stuff. And yes, I meant US... so definitely not Web wide as in World wide. I have not checked outside of US specific Web sites. That said, I don't know that they don't have a sale outside of US either - I just did not check.

Look @ me! ... off the boat myself (although ~30 years ago, not to date myself), and becoming a classic US centric American... hmmm ... I kind a like it :D ... no offence. US has been really good to me, its my home and I love it.

Spacey :D

5pacey
08/15/2015, 03:57 PM
You're correct that you will see some convergence mis-match with all array-type LED units. ...
Yea... my thoughts as well. The old style matrix with discrete emmiter/optics is just a bad design. It limped thus far but Kessil definitely has the right stuff when it comes to generating and projecting the photons as compared to everyone else. Control.. not so much, although I wonder what AP700 is going to be like. I worry that I will be disappointed though...

Halides / Fluorescents... are just a steam/coal power. I understand that its the real full spectrum, but mechanics are just totally wrong.

Best,

Spacey :D

Griff500
08/15/2015, 04:04 PM
Sorry... I was presumptuous... since I know EcoTech doesn't do sales normally, and when they do its everywhere they sell their stuff. And yes, I meant US... so definitely not Web wide as in World wide. I have not checked outside of US specific Web sites. That said, I don't know that they don't have a sale outside of US either - I just did not check.

Look @ me! ... off the boat myself (although ~30 years ago, not to date myself), and becoming a classic US centric American... hmmm ... I kind a like it :D ... no offence. US has been really good to me, its my home and I love it.

Spacey :D

:lolspin:

No problem - I thought it seemed odd that there would be a sale on them over here!

lhm nole
08/15/2015, 06:58 PM
Had kessils tried a radion back to kessils....Radions are a good light just prefer the look of kessils and always had good growth.. downfall was shadowing I just added more fixtures and no issues now..

Allentown
08/15/2015, 07:56 PM
Will know soon enough.

After 2 years of running A360s I just bought 3 Hydra 52 lights.

Supposedly the 52s have much better light blending than Radions but my plan is to get the best of both world's by having the hydra up top and the 360s in the flip door of canopy aiming back.

I am still working out how but I just ordered 2 security camera mounts that swivel and I suspect I'll be able to get this going in the next couple weeks.

I'll post pics of the 52s only...then the kessils only, then both together.

Be patient...I will probably have the canopy done well before water hits the tank.....

kevin32
08/15/2015, 08:02 PM
Run Kessil with t5s......awesome!

doug09
08/15/2015, 10:40 PM
Great post. I have an old outer orbit light made by current usa that has metal halide mixed with power compact and I'm looking to upgrade to leds. I have a standard 72 gallon bow front that is 48" x 18" with about 17" depth since I have several inches of sand. My tank is loaded with ULTRA GRADE LPS , softies and several anemones. Thought I was set on either radion xr15pro or radion xr15pro especially with the sweet sale but after reading your post and looking at some YouTube videos on kessil, I can't decide. The kessil 360w look very nice on video with the shimmer and the new ap700 coming out looks very interesting. Love to hear more comments on kessil 360 from those of u that use them. If I do stay with radion i need help if I should go with the xr15 pro or xr30. Will the xr15 pro have enough power and look amazing or should I go with the xr30 pro? Or is the xr30 pro to power for my tank and will burn corals or I have to run it ridiculously low ?

dkeller_nc
08/16/2015, 07:19 AM
With a 48" wide tank, you're going to need 2 Radion G3Pros to cover the tank. You'll have to run them at about 40% to prevent nuking the corals in the tank, especially if you have a canopy.

BTW - none of the "modular" fixtures by AI, EcoTech or Kessil are really suitable for running in a canopy. All of these fixtures are best mounted at least 10" above the water to get good coverage and reduce hot-spotting. In my case, my G3 Pro's 14" above the water on my 24" x 24" x 20" cube, and the max intensity during the middle of the day is 65%.

If you're trying to retrofit a canopy, my thought is to consider the Orphek Atlantik "candy bar" fixtures.

5pacey
08/16/2015, 09:33 AM
... Will the xr15 pro have enough power and look amazing or should I go with the xr30 pro? Or is the xr30 pro to power for my tank and will burn corals or I have to run it ridiculously low?
Like dkeller said for a 48" tank you need 2xRadions at least especially if they are XR15s and it will look great... ;) as Radions go.

But... one XR15 is roughly equivalent to one Kessil A360, and one XR30, technically to 2 A360's power wise. So you could start with 2xA360's for the whole tank because they have a wide coverage area and put out a lot of light.

However, as I experienced, and others concur although opinions vary as to how noticeable it is, the Radion will have the disco effect, and Kessil will not. So its highly recommended that you see them side by side before you commit. Or... like me buy both and then sell one :D and get a 2nd one to match the one you stayed with.

Best,

Spacey :D

doug09
08/24/2015, 08:57 PM
Thanks for the reply 5pacey and Dkeller. I was planning on 2 lights for sure. I think I'm going for the xr15 pro. I'll post if they have a disco light effect in my tank too, which is a concern. The only reason I didn't go with the kessil is it somewhat limited in color control. Though I see they have a fixture coming out now with different lighting controls. Hard to decide for sure

DaveRaz
08/24/2015, 10:09 PM
Run Kessil with t5s......awesome!

Yup. Love this set up after experimenting with several.

doug09
08/25/2015, 12:36 AM
Yeah T5 are cool lights for sure for me it's a little bit of a mental thing that T5 are old tech. Someone told me the blue burns off the kessil don't see how that is possible. Has anyone else witness this or experienced ?

Radioheadx14
08/26/2015, 07:17 AM
I really like the 2 kessil 160s I run 2 on a 18g cube. Same shimmer with less shadowing. Using 2 at an angle instead of 1 does a better job at lighting all sides of branching corals instead of just the tops, yet retains a nice MH/natural shimmer.

Allentown
08/26/2015, 08:45 PM
I see zero disco effect with the 3 Hydra 52s in dry testing.

Will add water next week and check...then add the kessils for final build.

Allentown
08/26/2015, 08:50 PM
Yeah T5 are cool lights for sure for me it's a little bit of a mental thing that T5 are old tech. Someone told me the blue burns off the kessil don't see how that is possible. Has anyone else witness this or experienced ?


At full blast they appear as blue as ever. At 50/50 they look exactly like you would expect. But at 75% the blue appears to be less than blue than what 75% used to be.

These are 2 year old lamps though and I never noticed it until I started playing with my 3 new hydra 52s......that's too big a coincidence so I'm 90% sure its just my eyes playing tricks on me after looking at the hydra deep blues on 1% night mode....

Turbosreef
03/24/2016, 11:07 PM
Just a quick thought maybe some will say I'm crazy thinking of running 3 kessils on a 525xl reefer, left right channels running whiter side and center running blue has anyone tried this ?

fbodykiller
03/25/2016, 09:21 PM
What optics are you guts running on the Rafions with the disco effect?

Brisk
03/25/2016, 11:41 PM
Thanks for the review, I think I'm going to stick with my gut instinct and go with a kessil for a small project I'm lining up on a 26 gal bow front

frankv702
03/26/2016, 10:07 AM
Thanks for the review! I've been debating if I should go with a Radion on my 38g cube and take my Kessil A360 off. I'm not a fan of the disco effect and I love my Kessil, I was just concerned with the shadowing. I'll probably just buy a second A360 instead now.