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View Full Version : Dedicated Fish Outlet circuit. What's the typical power draw?


Allentown
08/18/2015, 07:12 AM
What would you say is the power draw needed for a fish room that's going to house 3 tanks.

1) 225g display reef.
2) 90g QT reef
3) 40g salt mixing station.

When I tried to look up all the equipment, not only was it way more than 20amp, it was way more than 25amps.

I started thinking my math is off because it seemed like 20amp is generally what's required and I know there are people here with far far larger set ups than mine....

Electrician just called, he is on vacation till Monday will be here to don't he work Tuesday...

alton
08/18/2015, 08:52 AM
I have a 300 and my total is 1,445 watts/12.041 amps including 825watts of metal halide. Looking at your list I do not see anything that stands out?

Art13
08/18/2015, 08:59 AM
were you also looking at running watts or startup watts/amps when you looked up the equipment? For a lot of the equipment we use they have a power spike on startup but running watts/amps are lower.

Rx79394
08/18/2015, 10:19 AM
I have a 300 and my total is 1,445 watts/12.041 amps including 825watts of metal halide. Looking at your list I do not see anything that stands out?

I've never done the math on my equipment, but if that is what yours is at I feel much better running my equipment on the same circuit as my TV (I only have a 30g/LEDs/small chiller).

I was really nervous a few weeks ago when I also put the window AC on the circuit... :lolspin: lights flicker when that thing comes on.

alton
08/18/2015, 10:29 AM
I've never done the math on my equipment, but if that is what yours is at I feel much better running my equipment on the same circuit as my TV (I only have a 30g/LEDs/small chiller).

I was really nervous a few weeks ago when I also put the window AC on the circuit... :lolspin: lights flicker when that thing comes on.

Chiller and AC compressors are a different story, the startup on those are bad. I usually add 25% to those loads. Why a chiller with LEDs?

Dapg8gt
08/18/2015, 10:49 AM
I've never done the math on my equipment, but if that is what yours is at I feel much better running my equipment on the same circuit as my TV (I only have a 30g/LEDs/small chiller).

I was really nervous a few weeks ago when I also put the window AC on the circuit... :lolspin: lights flicker when that thing comes on.

You feel comfortable running all of that on one circuit? I personally wouldn't run that much on a shared circuit that is powering the tank especially a chiller and a AC unit.

That's JMO though with my luck it would pop right after I left for something =)..

Rx79394
08/18/2015, 10:54 AM
Chiller and AC compressors are a different story, the startup on those are bad. I usually add 25% to those loads. Why a chiller with LEDs?

The small chiller was installed when I didn't have the AC unit in the apartment. With the summer approaching around the corner, I decided to pick up a small unit, as I was uncertain how the tank would handle the summer. Now that there is a window unit for the living room nearby, I could get away with removing the chiller. The chiller only comes rarely now.

I am not the most comfortable with all that on the same circuit, but it hasn't popped yet.

AZRippster
08/18/2015, 10:57 AM
If you're running a dedicated circuit, you might as well go with 20amp. We did for our 450 setup and I'm glad I did. While you're doing it, run some Cat6 for a hardwire LAN connection to your router. You'll be glad you did. Nice to have with controllers and more reliable than wireless.

Allentown
08/18/2015, 11:16 AM
Thanks guys, I must have looked it up wrong. It was the titanium heaters that really put it over (9a for the 800w and I cant remember how much for the 500w back up and the 300w for the QT tank)

Ill be running 3 850gph pumps (one on each return in the 225 and 1 on the 90), two ATO units, 3 Hydra 52s, 2 Kessil A360s, 2 A150s, the lighting under the cabinent is LED rope lighting, a refugium light, I will have two small Drainage pumps and two small refill pumps for water changes, 1 Vortech WPQD (probably 2) a Gyre X150, 2 Jaebo 25s on the QT tank, and will probably also add a couple WP10s to the back wall. Skimmers are the Reef Octopus 150 Super Cone and...???????? (I don't know whats going into the 225 yet.....probably a Cones Co-3/a RO Super Cone 220 or an Ecomaxx EM300) The two media reactors are an SMR-1 with an oversized pump (don't know the gph I have it turned down with a valve) and a MR-1 with the tiny pump that comes with it (for GFO).

BlackTip
08/18/2015, 01:26 PM
I had my 325g tank running with skimmer, 2 return pumps, 2 gyres, reactor pump, fuge light, osmelator, and my Apex was reading about 3 amps. I added LED light, and now I am averaging 6.5 amps. Heaters and lights consumes most power. I have 2 20-amps dedicated circuits.

ArmanS
08/18/2015, 01:59 PM
I have 2 x 20-amp dedicated circuits for my fish room which is way overkill but I wanted to be fine.

If your running LEDs and do not need a Chiller then I think 1 20amp circuit is more then enough.

If you were to run lets say Halide's and needed a large chiller I would say 2 to be on the safe side and never had to worry.

For what your doing 1 x 20-amp should be more then fine.

Remember, not everything is going to be on at the same time. Either your Chiller or Heater, not both at the same time !

mcgyvr
08/18/2015, 03:31 PM
Just add it up..

FYI
Amps = Watts/Volts
Use 120V for US regular outlets..

example
900W heater is 900/120 = 7.5 Amps
500W heater is 500/120 = 4.2 Amps
300W heater is 300/120 = 2.5 Amps
Thats 14.2 Amps right there..

2 x 20A circuits may be right..
Big tanks ain't cheap..
Wait till you see your next electricity bill.. :)

Maybe sure any submersible equipment is protected by a GFCI device..

sixpackgarage
08/18/2015, 03:35 PM
mine is roughly 190 watts last time I checked. Equipment list is in my blog.

dkeller_nc
08/18/2015, 04:48 PM
Thanks guys, I must have looked it up wrong. It was the titanium heaters that really put it over (9a for the 800w and I cant remember how much for the 500w back up and the 300w for the QT tank)


That's an incredible amount of heating capacity, particularly for Augusta, GA. I'd suspect you could drop in a 400w into your 225g and it'd be fine until the dead of winter (presuming that the tanks are in the heated/cooled area of your home rather than a basement).

Regardless, with the list of equipment that you have I'd suggest 3 dedicated, 20 amp circuits. On any particular circuit, design load is 80% of the breaker's stated value. So you don't want more than 16 amps on any one circuit. It's unlikely that you'd need the full capacity of 48 amps spread across 3 circuits, even factoring the in-rush from starting pumps.

But 3 separate dedicated circuits will allow you to spread the load more evenly, and importantly, ensure that no one tank is fed from only one circuit. This is particularly true if you choose to install GFCI breakers on all circuits - you don't want a nuisance trip to nuke your tank (that's why some of us with electrical backgrounds choose not to use GFCI).

You may also wish to discuss with your electrician the possibility of installing a charger/inverter with associated deep cycle batteries on one additional circuit; presuming that circuit has multiple outlets distributed throughout your fish room, it'll be easy to power at least one powerhead per tank on a battery back-up that will last for 24-48 hours. Your electrician can also set this circuit up with a (manual) kick-over switch that will allow you to plug your generator in and automatically disconnect the circuit from the distribution panel.

You do have a generator, don't you? ;)

Allentown
08/18/2015, 05:31 PM
3w per gallon with 265g on the main display tank and 800w still isn't enough. In the winter ill have a 500w back up heater that will only come on if the temp drops 2 degrees below the threshold. We keep the house about 68 in the winter so eventually, the back up heater will come on even if just once in a while.

Going to run the 90 with only the 300w and chance it. (well, I may throw a 100w in there just as a secondary)

No generator, just the Vortech back up battery (good for 36 hours) a few emergency battery powered bublers and a gas powered fire place for emergency heat...maybe a PC UPS that could power the heater for like...30 minutes.

Funny story, were were without power for 3 days in an ice storm last year and I didn't lose a single thing...thanks to the bublers, an indoor safe propane heater and heating water up over the heater and pouring it in the tank (lower the salinity to like 1.18 though!!!) I finally gave up on it...went to families house that had power to take a shower and charge batteries and when I stepped out of the shower I got a message from my apex about the power outage and I knew the power was back on.....lol

If I have no lights or heaters or pumps at the salt mixing station do you think I could run it with 2x 20 amps?

Rx79394
08/18/2015, 06:38 PM
Funny story, were were without power for 3 days in an ice storm last year and I didn't lose a single thing...thanks to the bublers, an indoor safe propane heater and heating water up over the heater and pouring it in the tank (lower the salinity to like 1.18 though!!!) I finally gave up on it...went to families house that had power to take a shower and charge batteries and when I stepped out of the shower I got a message from my apex about the power outage and I knew the power was back on.....lol


I was stationed in Ft. Gordon for the past 4 years. I was there for that Ice Storm... That was nuts! Actually visiting some friends down there in 2 weeks! Yay!

I didn't have a tank then, but couldn't imagine what it was like...

dkeller_nc
08/18/2015, 10:28 PM
If I have no lights or heaters or pumps at the salt mixing station do you think I could run it with 2x 20 amps?

Probably, but perhaps just barely. Since a good bit of the money for an electrician is simply coming out, estimating the job, etc..., I'd think adding one additional 20A wouldn't be much extra. And it would give you some breathing room.

Yes, when I asked about the generator I was specifically thinking of ice storms and hurricanes, both of which we're subject to where I am in NC. No question a whole-house generator with an automatic transfer switch would be very pricey.

But you really out to have an inexpensive, gas powered roll-out genny. While noisy, the inexpensive Generacs from the home store will set you back no more than about $500 for 7500 watts - enough to run your whole fish room, your refrigerator, and your tv. ;)

BrettDS
08/18/2015, 10:34 PM
Like dkeller said, adding a second circuit probably won't be a big expense, but can add some peace of mind... If a gfci or circuit breaker trips you won't bring everything down... Put the return pump on one circuit and the circulation pumps on the other... Put one heater on each circuit, etc, so that way if one circuit does have a problem while you're away then the tank should do much better than if everything shut down.

Allentown
08/18/2015, 10:51 PM
I was stationed in Ft. Gordon for the past 4 years. I was there for that Ice Storm... That was nuts! Actually visiting some friends down there in 2 weeks! Yay!

I didn't have a tank then, but couldn't imagine what it was like...

Perhaps the most entertaining part was watching me flag down 3 rednecks to help push my Shelby to a near by church to avoid the falling trees in my yard....

Probably, but perhaps just barely. Since a good bit of the money for an electrician is simply coming out, estimating the job, etc..., I'd think adding one additional 20A wouldn't be much extra. And it would give you some breathing room.

Yes, when I asked about the generator I was specifically thinking of ice storms and hurricanes, both of which we're subject to where I am in NC. No question a whole-house generator with an automatic transfer switch would be very pricey.

But you really out to have an inexpensive, gas powered roll-out genny. While noisy, the inexpensive Generacs from the home store will set you back no more than about $500 for 7500 watts - enough to run your whole fish room, your refrigerator, and your tv. ;)

Definitely... Some good advice there

Like dkeller said, adding a second circuit probably won't be a big expense, but can add some peace of mind... If a gfci or circuit breaker trips you won't bring everything down... Put the return pump on one circuit and the circulation pumps on the other... Put one heater on each circuit, etc, so that way if one circuit does have a problem while you're away then the tank should do much better than if everything shut down.

I think dkeller is saying spring for 3 (not 2)!

Also....the set up here is going to require...help me understand. Multiple Apex units if I am going to start splitting up heaters and pumps. I suppose I could put the wave makers on a second circuit and not control them with the apex and have a stand alone temp controller for the back up heater so that its not on the main circuit.

Maybe just throw an Apex Jr. in the main tank, hooked to the second circuit and controlling 1 heater and the gyre 150???? (since all it can do is off/on anyway from the apex).:uhoh3:

alton
08/19/2015, 05:04 AM
Per the 2014 code and unless your tank is in your garage the breakers feeding this tank will have to be arc fault and then using GFCI receptacles. Only Square D makes a combination GFCI/AFCI breaker at this time. Hospital grade are the most accurate GFCI receptacles 5MA just like a breaker. Pass and Seymore make ones that have alarms. Keep your heaters on there own GFCI receptacle, and definitely keep your return pump on its own GFCI. If you are adding a circuit add two, not much more cost. Sounds like you have a lot of draw but your AC and chiller will not be running when you need your heaters. Plus when you max out on heaters, it will probably be in the middle of the night when most of your aquarium equipment is shutdown. Have fun, enjoy your tank, and post pictures

dkeller_nc
08/19/2015, 08:04 AM
Actually, if your tanks are in relatively close proximity to each other, you can use one Apex to run multiple EB8 or EB4 power/switch strips, and also use one Apex to run multiple pH/temp probes. You just need one additional pH/ORP module for every temperature and pH point that you want to measure and control.

Allentown
08/19/2015, 11:26 AM
Per the 2014 code and unless your tank is in your garage the breakers feeding this tank will have to be arc fault and then using GFCI receptacles. Only Square D makes a combination GFCI/AFCI breaker at this time. Hospital grade are the most accurate GFCI receptacles 5MA just like a breaker. Pass and Seymore make ones that have alarms. Keep your heaters on there own GFCI receptacle, and definitely keep your return pump on its own GFCI. If you are adding a circuit add two, not much more cost. Sounds like you have a lot of draw but your AC and chiller will not be running when you need your heaters. Plus when you max out on heaters, it will probably be in the middle of the night when most of your aquarium equipment is shutdown. Have fun, enjoy your tank, and post pictures

I suppose that code would still apply if the breaker I am tying into isn't located in the main box?

I had one of the builder supervisors from my construction company (they are still building in my neighborhood) over the other day and he pointed out that I have the extra break out box at the meter that has plenty of expansion slots, that box is literally 20 feet from where the outlets are going and I talked to my electrician and he is just going to run a conduit outside right down the house along side of the flood light he installed last year and go right through the wall to install the outlets.

Does that change the code any? It should reduce the costs....no CAT5 cable though...there is no phone or modem any where near that area.

I'm going to order a 100ft Ethernet cable for firmware updates (last night I sat down and taught myself how to do a direct network between PC and Apex by changing the subnet mask, TCP and DCHC (what ever they are)) settings and I must say....it was not hard once I did it.....it was the most relaxing firmware update I have ever done and I will be doing it that way from now on).

Unfortunately internet connectivity with the controller using the video game adapter..will be the usual unreliable as hell.... (unless their bug fixes have gotten a lot better than they used to be)

Actually, if your tanks are in relatively close proximity to each other, you can use one Apex to run multiple EB8 or EB4 power/switch strips, and also use one Apex to run multiple pH/temp probes. You just need one additional pH/ORP module for every temperature and pH point that you want to measure and control.

They are going to be close. I was tired last night. So now that I have slept a few hours. 1 Apex unit....an extra EB8 (or extension cords behind the tank) and an extra aqua bus along with an extra PM1 and ill have full control over both tanks...I can even program the leak detection and feed cycles to work for both tanks (assuming I feed both at the same time and have the programming right all that should synch fairly nicely).

Sound right?

Allentown
08/19/2015, 11:30 AM
Have fun, enjoy your tank, and post pictures


I'm waiting for the aqua scaping stage to post my build thread but here is a sneak peek. I hated never having enough light under the cabinent in the old tank and even with a cabinent light...there were always areas I needed a flash light to see.

No more......rope lighting all the way around. (solved that at least). It will be on a remote control outlet so I can pull the remote and turn then on. That's how I'm doing the water changes to... 1) Feed cycle to shut tank. 2) Remote button 1 turns on lighs, 3) Remote button 2 drains sump 4) Remote button 3 refills sump.

Yes, I'm making this up as I go along...ha ha ha. Should work though.

nuxx
08/19/2015, 01:10 PM
Many amps!

We got lucky, we had a dedicate line for a laundry room fridge behind the tank, just ran another outlet down and on the other side for the tank. The fridge is running on another outlet now.

Also break up a few non-essential pieces of equipment on other outlets behind the tank to lower the load.

The APEX says we're using around 5 amps avg, 9 peak. Probably using a bit more with other equipment that is on that outlet, but not hooked up to the APEX.

BrettDS
08/19/2015, 04:41 PM
Also....the set up here is going to require...help me understand. Multiple Apex units if I am going to start splitting up heaters and pumps.

You shouldn't need multiple apex units, but you'd need multiple EB8's. Put one EB8 on each circuit and then split up the heaters and pumps between the two EB8's. Worst case if the power fails on one circuit the apex would go down and the live EB8 would go into fallback mode, but honestly I don't think that would happen because the EB8's power the apex. So if you have two EB8's my guess would be that as long as one of them has power then the apex would be up and running. I haven't tested that, so I don't know for sure.

dkeller_nc
08/20/2015, 07:59 AM
Sound right?

Yep, that's right.

Breadman03
08/20/2015, 08:16 AM
I think dkeller is saying spring for 3 (not 2)!

Agree on 3. You won't need the capacity, but the redundancy. On one breaker, a shorted auto feeder will shut down your entire system, putting you into emergency mode until you can find what the cause is and rectify it.

My plan is one breaker for my main pump and any reactors, and two other breakers with heaters, powerheads, and lighting spread across them so that I won't lose more than half of my heat or circulation should a given breaker pop.

An additional benefit of this is that your "possible" list gets much shorter when not all of your equipment is on the same breaker.

Rx79394
08/20/2015, 10:05 AM
I know that this information will change depending on the location, but I would be interested in what the electrician gives for an estimate for each additional circuit.

Allentown
08/20/2015, 11:49 AM
Agree on 3. You won't need the capacity, but the redundancy. On one breaker, a shorted auto feeder will shut down your entire system, putting you into emergency mode until you can find what the cause is and rectify it.

My plan is one breaker for my main pump and any reactors, and two other breakers with heaters, powerheads, and lighting spread across them so that I won't lose more than half of my heat or circulation should a given breaker pop.

An additional benefit of this is that your "possible" list gets much shorter when not all of your equipment is on the same breaker.


I have two returns on the main display.

Lets play a game called: "I think this will safely work with just a pair of dedicated 20 amp circuits and the pre-exsisting 15 Amp (3 circuits total)

So:

Standard 15amp: Cabinent Lights, fuge light, ATO, Water change pumps (2), and the Gyre X150 and Vortech MP40qd, Skimmer, Reactors

20 Amp Circuit 1) 800w heater, Main pump 1
20 Amp Circuit 2) 500W heater, Main pump 2, Apex controller

The Vortech has the 36 hour back up bat also.


I am thinking this gives me pretty much what I need. The QT Reef will be on the 15 amp also...but will only be running a pair of kessil A150s and a 300W heater.


How would you divide it up between a pair of 20s and the pre-exsisting 15?

Edit: I could no doubt safely move a couple more items off the 15 to one of the 20s but I'm just not sure what should go where.

lpsouth1978
08/20/2015, 12:02 PM
Just add it up..

FYI
Amps = Watts/Volts
Use 120V for US regular outlets..

example
900W heater is 900/120 = 7.5 Amps
500W heater is 500/120 = 4.2 Amps
300W heater is 300/120 = 2.5 Amps
Thats 14.2 Amps right there..

2 x 20A circuits may be right..
Big tanks ain't cheap..
Wait till you see your next electricity bill.. :)

Maybe sure any submersible equipment is protected by a GFCI device..

My 300 pulls somewhere between 15A and 20A. I know this because the 15A circuit that I was originally using kept tripping, while the 20A outlet it is on now has not tripped.

As for my electric bill, it nearly tripled with the addition of the tank.

BlackTip
08/20/2015, 12:06 PM
I designed mine with 2 20amp circuit, and I feel pretty good about it. I don't see any reason to go more. It complicates and increase the cost without any real benefits. For my panel, each breaker was $95. $500 to install 2 circuits with parts and labor.

Circuit No.1
Return pump #1
Heater #1
Light #1
ATO
Skimmer
Carbon/GFO reactor
Gyer #1

Circuit No.2
Return pump #2
Heater #2
Light #2
Gyre #2
Fuge light

Each circuit is connected to an Apex power bar. In case of power outage, I can connect circuit #1 to a small generator and have all essentials up and running. If one circuit temporarily shorted, the system should be operating just fine on the other circuit.

Toddrtrex
08/20/2015, 12:24 PM
When I was setting up my 210, I had 2 20 amp circuits run. Re-used the space that held the original 20 amp circuit (( it was for the dinning room and the eat in part of the kitchen --- it has the dehumidifier on it now, and used for crock pots for holiday parties, so wanted to be off that circuit )).

There was really no difference in the labor for a second circuit, since they share a neutral only had to run 3 lines thru the conduit. I made one of the outlets an GFCI one, and the other a "normal" one. ATI T5 fixtures don't always play nice with GFCIs and will often trip them needlessly. In addition I plugged the main pump into the normal outlet (( should say one of my EB8s )), so that if there is every a trip the pump will still run.

I might have been able to get away with 1 20 amp, but wanted the change to expand to a fully running QT (( never set up, will be moving soon )). According to my APEX I have only used a MAX of 11.5 and an average of 5.22.

alton
08/20/2015, 03:48 PM
The biggest issue I would have with running single pole circuits from an outside panel is in the winter time when it is 10 degrees below 0 outside that 20 amp breaker will never trip if say a heater went bad and starting drawing a ton of amps. A ground fault receptacle needs a ground which heaters do not have to operate correctly. Do you have a way to hide a small 4 circuit panel inside?

BrettDS
08/21/2015, 12:10 PM
A ground fault receptacle needs a ground which heaters do not have to operate correctly.

This is definitely not true. Take a hair drier, for example... They have GCFI's on the plugs, yet do not have a ground. Plug a hair drier in, turn it on, and throw it into a bathtub and the GFCI will trip despite the lack of ground.

The GFCI works by making sure the amount of current on the hot side of the circuit is exactly equal to the amount of current on the neutral side. If they don't match, then that extra current is going somewhere... through the water or through someone's body or whatever, but it's not going where it's supposed to be, so the GFCI trips.

alton
08/21/2015, 01:26 PM
This is definitely not true. Take a hair drier, for example... They have GCFI's on the plugs, yet do not have a ground. Plug a hair drier in, turn it on, and throw it into a bathtub and the GFCI will trip despite the lack of ground.

The GFCI works by making sure the amount of current on the hot side of the circuit is exactly equal to the amount of current on the neutral side. If they don't match, then that extra current is going somewhere... through the water or through someone's body or whatever, but it's not going where it's supposed to be, so the GFCI trips.

Correct because you become the grounding path and hopefully the GFCI trips before 5ma. Can anybody remember the last time they tested there blow dryers GFCI? I know my wife never has. The problem when a heater goes bad while sitting in water inside of a glass tank it is insulated and continues to build up more and more resistance till it pops the 20 amp breaker. I had a friend who's heater melted the plug in the wall which then created a direct short and tripped the breaker. Hence the name ground fault, something or someone has to produce the grounding means.