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sixpackgarage
08/20/2015, 09:44 PM
I reserved my PMK quite a whole ago from my LFS (Saltwater Junkies : shameless plug). This LFS has been instrumental in my build. Anyways today the PMK came in.. The excitement.. Installation was pretty easy. Took me about 15-20 minutes to upgrade to the 4.40 firmware. I was able to see the PAR reading on Fusion right away. I put the sensor in my fuge for initial testing. My fuge is illuminated by a Kessil Amazon Sun. A couple of little bugs so far, which I'll update the thread for when I figure them out.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/54b2f5b4fea3ec019e03652b3f8982eb.jpghttp://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/a954582abd2fe7cd2061ffade3fb2bf7.jpg

Just for fun, I put it a couple of inches under one of my Kessil A360WE @41%
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/20/0bb4ec9494050ccd0cfd73c762e82b55.jpg

ArmanS
08/20/2015, 09:53 PM
Thanks for the pics! Keep this thread updated, I may be interested in purchasing one. Have you ever used a PAR meter? Would you say this is better to have then one?

Any other thoughts would be great, I'm on the fence but could always be convinced to add new modules to my apex!

sixpackgarage
08/20/2015, 09:56 PM
I have never used one, so this all new to me. I'll update as I learn.

For me, it's better than a portable PAR meter because I can just leave it in a spot and log data into the cloud and view on my phone when I'm not home, or I can move it wherever I want it. The sensor also doesn't have to be inside the fake rock.. it comes out.

kenpau
08/21/2015, 08:51 AM
I was so excited when I saw this but a few issues were immediately pointed out to me. Keeping it clean enough to give accurate readings may be a problem. Also it's only logging data from the one place that you put it in the tank.
I think this module would come into it's own if you have Apex ready lighting such as the AI Hydra52s, it should be possible for you to set the PAR you want and the Apex would adjust the lighting accordingly, definitely a handy feature to have. Having said that, the quantum meters I've used before constantly change values which means your lighting may be constantly dimming/brightening, probably not really what you'd want to see.
Interesting to see how you go with it though.

nuxx
08/21/2015, 10:16 AM
Let us know how often you need to clean it :)

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 11:50 AM
Let us know how often you need to clean it :)


Probably weekly or less with my bioload. Time will tell.

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 11:53 AM
Ok so the first test was in my fuge. It has the Kessil Amazon Sun fixture. It's not adjustable and consumes 34 watts. Looked pretty steady through the cycle.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/21/da2e1ad3e3bb6fa879f44c0eb7568f8d.jpg

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 11:54 AM
That is 12 hours of data above

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 11:58 AM
Two bugs to report so far and they may just be due to my own ignorance
1.) unable to get PAR displayed on the home display screen. It's like it doesn't 'see' the probe
2.) the probe (par sensor) shows between 32-35 par even if I cover it with a towel so there's probably a calibration for offset.. I don't know yet

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 12:05 PM
I was so excited when I saw this but a few issues were immediately pointed out to me. Keeping it clean enough to give accurate readings may be a problem. Also it's only logging data from the one place that you put it in the tank.
I think this module would come into it's own if you have Apex ready lighting such as the AI Hydra52s, it should be possible for you to set the PAR you want and the Apex would adjust the lighting accordingly, definitely a handy feature to have. Having said that, the quantum meters I've used before constantly change values which means your lighting may be constantly dimming/brightening, probably not really what you'd want to see.
Interesting to see how you go with it though.


Ken, I'm not sure sensor cleaning is as big of an issue as everyone thinks.. Algae doesn't grow that fast at least in my tank. I'll know in a week or so as I play around with it. And yes of course you only measure one spot at a time, but that's how it works unless you want to buy multiples, then you can daisy chain them together? But I don't see the value in that. If you measure let's say one spot per day for 12 hours each you will have lighting profiles for each area. That's what I'll be doing because to me the overall data set is much more important than a snapshot at a given intensity. Most people ramp their lights. This way of collecting data is a huge time saver for me anyways.

alton
08/21/2015, 01:56 PM
I think this is a beneficial item in the fact you have it in your tank and are always checking your PAR levels. If you notice a drop you will clean the sensor, if it is still low you know you have a problem. I can't see using it to control your lights, can you imagine if it gets dirty or a coral falls on it and your leds max out because the controller is not reading correctly, Ouch! I learned the hard way once when my MH lamps dropped 50% in 6 months and I lost my SPS. Since then I check my PAR levels very often.

kenpau
08/21/2015, 02:53 PM
I can't see using it to control your lights, can you imagine if it gets dirty or a coral falls on it and your leds max out because the controller is not reading correctly, Ouch!

Thats a very good point i didnt think of. If thats the case then I'm struggling to see the advantages over a stand alone quantum meter to be honest.

alton
08/21/2015, 03:04 PM
Thats a very good point i didnt think of. If thats the case then I'm struggling to see the advantages over a stand alone quantum meter to be honest.

You save $75?

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 03:05 PM
Ken, the advantage is in the software suite. A standalone does nothing except gives you a live reading. There is no difference in the sensor technology, it's probably the same exact sensor.

I've already mentioned the ability to create a profile vs. snapshot not to mention being able to overlay a PAR trendline on top of a lighting schedule trendline.. the amount of analysis that is possible is quite compelling which is why I spent the $300.

kenpau
08/21/2015, 07:05 PM
I understand the software suite but if you got a regular quantum meter and took readings over the course of a day for your specific lighting program then your readings shouldn't change should they?
If you're running T5 or halide lighting then it may be useful to help you map when the globes need changing but putting a quantum meter in once every few months would tell you this too.
I'm not bagging out the PMK as such, when I first saw it I thought 'I've got to get this', I'm a HUGE advocate of using PAR readings to your advantage, but for me there just doesn't seem to be anything you can do with the PMK that you can't do with a regular quantum meter....I'm hoping someone can convince me otherwise so I can buy one!
The mapping of your PAR vs your lighting schedule in Fusion is nice, but it would be for one specific area in your tank and so wouldn't give you an overall picture of what is happening.

Reefvet
08/21/2015, 08:40 PM
Ken, I'm not sure sensor cleaning is as big of an issue as everyone thinks.. Algae doesn't grow that fast at least in my tank.

We won't give you a hard time when you change your mind. :dance:

How often do you clean your pH probe ? It typically takes a few days in the cleanest of tanks before that's off from the microbial film and algae.

Growing any coraline in your tank ?

I've used an Apogee for a number of years. I take readings once a month to track T5 ageing and it's very useful.

They now sell the probe as a stand alone USB device that you can plug into a laptop. That to me makes it a little less portable but it is more cost effective.

The folks at Neptune Systems are selling you that probe with a nice fake rock for another hundred bucks. :uhoh3:

Now I've got 2 of the Tunze rocks that hold a powerhead but they're 20 times the size, look real and cost $75. And they're German fake rocks, known to be vastly superior. :bounce3:

sixpackgarage
08/21/2015, 11:49 PM
We won't give you a hard time when you change your mind. :dance:

How often do you clean your pH probe ? It typically takes a few days in the cleanest of tanks before that's off from the microbial film and algae.

Growing any coraline in your tank ?

I've used an Apogee for a number of years. I take readings once a month to track T5 ageing and it's very useful.

They now sell the probe as a stand alone USB device that you can plug into a laptop. That to me makes it a little less portable but it is more cost effective.

The folks at Neptune Systems are selling you that probe with a nice fake rock for another hundred bucks. :uhoh3:

Now I've got 2 of the Tunze rocks that hold a powerhead but they're 20 times the size, look real and cost $75. And they're German fake rocks, known to be vastly superior. :bounce3:


Let's face it, Neptune sells an engineered package.. I'm in for it. You want to save a hundred, that's great. I think there's a lot of value in the package for some, where others struggle to grasp the concept. I don't give 2 farts about the fake rock, in fact most of the time, I won't use it. That's not why I chose to buy it. I'm having fun with it and gathering knowledge and that, I don't put a price on.

acesq
08/22/2015, 10:34 AM
Let's face it, Neptune sells an engineered package.. I'm in for it. You want to save a hundred, that's great. I think there's a lot of value in the package for some, where others struggle to grasp the concept. I don't give 2 farts about the fake rock, in fact most of the time, I won't use it. That's not why I chose to buy it. I'm having fun with it and gathering knowledge and that, I don't put a price on.

I agree with this. I am buying it for the software integration functionality. I won't have an algae problem because I have no intention of keeping it in my tank full time and frankly don't see the sense in it. (Plus, I don't want a cord running out of the middle of my tank) I'll put it in for a few days measuring different areas of the tank over the period of an entire light cycle, log the data, make any changes to the light intensity I feel are appropriate by lowering or raising the T5 fixture and/or changing the intensity of the LED supplements and thereby establish a baseline light profile. I'll measure again the same points every few months to determine the degradation of the T5 bulbs and change out the bulbs as appropriate. I can't do that with my Apogee PAR meter which allows only a snapshot and requires logging by hand (something I've never done). The data will also allow me to determine the total daily dosage of light my corals which is a more useful measurement that the par at one given point in time. This info will come in handy in determining where to place corals for optimum color and growth.

I have no problem with the price point given its utility. The folks at Neptune are giving us more and better tools to integrate into the controller. I love it! But then, I'm also a big Mindstream fan and others are dismissive of it as well.

unze
08/22/2015, 12:45 PM
Nice to have but unnecessary item.

nivram
08/22/2015, 07:21 PM
Thanks for posting your impressions.
I have the biotek sensor and it too does data logging (connected to a laptop or computer of course). However this device is nice because it's integrated with Apex and fusion. Hopefully Apex takes advantage of this connectivity and offers future features like auto dimming to a certain par measurement.

sixpackgarage
08/23/2015, 07:22 PM
Ok next test spot. This time way near the top of the tank and toward the back left. Here are just a couple of photos of the placement and how it looks. I'll post the curve tomorrow night once I have 12 hours of data. I made no effort to turn the probe toward the light. It's just sitting flat
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/23/710c3c9b31cbf1cc88a1580c11c52e21.jpg
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/23/4e1a5378bda049dc4e489bee707802fe.jpg
Sorry for the crappy iphone4 pics.. The phone was not cooperating with the lighting today

sixpackgarage
08/24/2015, 11:41 PM
Ok so I've made a promise to myself to not tune my lights until I have a complete understanding of the tank lighting profiles and of the measurement tool itself. As Jesse would say 'woah dude you have a nasty hole in your fuel map'...
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/24/6353c52b7c769610cd36bfa518ecfc77.jpg

sixpackgarage
08/25/2015, 09:54 AM
So I think I know why the curve looks funny and this makes me so happy I now have this tool at my disposal. I have the intensity ramping up and back down. At one point, I back off the whites and I think that's where the dip is. I'll let it go through one more cycle in this spot to see if it repeats. Very eye opening stuff.. On a side note, the bird's nest sitting right next to the par sensor is growing and happy, but perhaps with more white (more par) to fill in the dip, it would grow more?

FullBoreReefer
08/25/2015, 12:13 PM
Sucks they can't make it the sensor wireless somehow. Went to vortechs for a reason, no cords in tank. Only reason keeping me from this meter.

Yes others meters have cords, but you pull them out when your done...

sixpackgarage
08/25/2015, 01:47 PM
Sucks they can't make it the sensor wireless somehow. Went to vortechs for a reason, no cords in tank. Only reason keeping me from this meter.

Yes others meters have cords, but you pull them out when your done...

That would be nice.. maybe in the future?

kenpau
08/25/2015, 06:00 PM
Sucks they can't make it the sensor wireless somehow. Went to vortechs for a reason, no cords in tank. Only reason keeping me from this meter.

Yes others meters have cords, but you pull them out when your done...

That would be nice, although I'm not sure if the wireless signal would be significantly weakened by it being in water.

So I think I know why the curve looks funny and this makes me so happy I now have this tool at my disposal. I have the intensity ramping up and back down. At one point, I back off the whites and I think that's where the dip is. I'll let it go through one more cycle in this spot to see if it repeats. Very eye opening stuff.. On a side note, the bird's nest sitting right next to the par sensor is growing and happy, but perhaps with more white (more par) to fill in the dip, it would grow more?

Why did the intensity change from the previous three days? Did you change the programming of your lights?

Jyetman
08/25/2015, 08:12 PM
Neptune advises not to let probes go below water line due to cords cracking shorting out. So how they preventing this from happening on this probe?

sixpackgarage
08/25/2015, 08:56 PM
That would be nice, although I'm not sure if the wireless signal would be significantly weakened by it being in water.







Why did the intensity change from the previous three days? Did you change the programming of your lights?


No the fuge light is not adjustable. I thought dirty sensor, but when I moved it, I didn't really see any appreciable dirt. The one grassy plant is growing about 1/2" per day so maybe that affected it. I did start GFO also, not sure if that affected it, but my skimmer cup was full of rusty brown stuff. I hope it's not an issue with the unit

sixpackgarage
08/25/2015, 09:07 PM
Neptune advises not to let probes go below water line due to cords cracking shorting out. So how they preventing this from happening on this probe?


I'm pretty sure this isn't a neptune sensor. It looks like a generic sensor that every mfg. uses. I'm pretty sure it's designed to be submerged for extended periods

kenpau
08/26/2015, 02:12 AM
No the fuge light is not adjustable. I thought dirty sensor, but when I moved it, I didn't really see any appreciable dirt. The one grassy plant is growing about 1/2" per day so maybe that affected it. I did start GFO also, not sure if that affected it, but my skimmer cup was full of rusty brown stuff. I hope it's not an issue with the unit

I'd say it's more likely to be an issue with the sensor or something moving over it. Once you set your lighting to a program then you should see those same readings everyday.

kross
08/26/2015, 07:00 AM
Neptune advises not to let probes go below water line due to cords cracking shorting out. So how they preventing this from happening on this probe?

I have had mine under the water now for 3 days without any issues. Not sure how else it would work without it being underwater. Mine is approx 1 inch from the bottom of the tank on a shelf rock where I have a bunch of Zoa's wanted to get an idea of the Par reading. I have random cloud code on my lights so the drop you saw was Clouds in the picture below.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=10279&pictureid=71346

Reefvet
08/26/2015, 12:32 PM
Neptune advises not to let probes go below water line due to cords cracking shorting out. So how they preventing this from happening on this probe?

They're referring to the thin wires on pH and ORP probes.

Reefvet
08/26/2015, 12:34 PM
I'm pretty sure this isn't a neptune sensor. It looks like a generic sensor that every mfg. uses. I'm pretty sure it's designed to be submerged for extended periods

This is the sensor (http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/sq-120-electric-calibration-quantum-sensor/) Neptune is using.

Every manufacture ?

Apogee Instruments has been the affordable brand in the PAR meter market. There are many that are more accurate. I use them daily in research but they're $1K or more.

From the AI web site: "Santoprene rubber jacket (high water resistance, high UV stability, flexibility in cold conditions"

IF you have a decent peristaltic pump it uses Santoprene. It's a standard in the industry.

sixpackgarage
08/29/2015, 03:53 PM
Ok, so here is 5 days worth of data from the same spot. The basic profile seems to repeat with some minor differences. There is about a 4 par difference in the peak value between day 1 and 5. I assume this is due to the sensor getting buildup although it looks pretty clean. The values dipped a little midweek. I'm assuming due to water clarity. I added GFO and it was tumbling a bit too much. I slowed down water flow to the reactor and my water is now clearer and I'm not emptying my skimmer cup once per day. I'll now be moving the sensor to a new spot for this coming week
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/08/29/924d6b9cc3a0d7b7dabbbf6da8eac1e1.jpg

sixpackgarage
08/29/2015, 04:32 PM
here's a different photo from my desktop
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5658/20365234954_4410f04eed_z.jpg

sixpackgarage
09/04/2015, 10:41 PM
Hmmm, where is the sensor now?
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/bb3ee654146e5cd03d0c6f589c0d332a.jpg

sixpackgarage
09/10/2015, 11:52 AM
Update:
To my happy surprise, after updating the firmware again with the 'F' level update, I'm now able to display PAR on the unit display. I've left the sensor in one spot for about a week. Here is the data. Seeing some minor coralline and algae growth on the sensor. I'll clean it out this weekend. Also still have not done a calibration

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/10/dd6d80da531481e32ab2af8dda5013f6.jpg

alexjoha
02/23/2016, 10:55 PM
Have you calibrated the tank lights now? and do you still have the PMK in your tank? :)
any updates? and have you tryed out any outher probes with the ASM ? :)

sixpackgarage
02/24/2016, 07:14 AM
Have you calibrated the tank lights now? and do you still have the PMK in your tank? :)
any updates? and have you tryed out any outher probes with the ASM ? :)

a few months after purchasing the PMK, I bought the Kessil AP700. So glad I had the PMK to understand the differences between my 360 lights and the AP. I probably would have killed my corals had I not known how much more powerful the AP is than my old lights. So to answer your question, I have made lighting program changes in response to PMK data. I have had the PMK in the tank in the same spot since the beginning. Now that my lights are dialed in, I don't pay much attention to the PMK.

I have not tried any other probes with the ASM as of yet.

pdiehm
06/15/2016, 06:59 AM
Bumping this as I am looking for a par meter. This in interesting but do I really want a cord in my tank 24/7?

Why not get a Seneye move it around, get your numbers and get it out?

For me, having a cord in the tank is a turnoff. Particularly since I would have to go over my internal coast to coast and no matter how hard I hide it, that cord will always be seen cutting through the glass overflow box

acesq
06/17/2016, 06:58 PM
You don't need it to be in your tank 24/7. The utility of it is it integrates with your Apex and it graphs the info

ca1ore
02/09/2017, 03:11 PM
Am considering this. Any updates? Frequency of cleaning? Accuracy over time?

acesq
02/09/2017, 04:23 PM
I'm quite happy with mine. I have been changing up my lighting a bit so having it in the DT then the Frag tank has been great for playing with par values. The sensor does not foul easily or quickly and par readings stay consistent between cleanings. Once every few days I give it a rub with my finger. If I take it out and move it between tanks, I'll clean the sensor with a scrubbing pad. I've not seen any algae growth on the sensor, but I can feel a bit of biofouling build up between wipes.
I don't keep it in the DT for more than a few days because the cord is ugly, but I've been leaving it in the frag tank on a semi permanent basis just because I'm too lazy to pull it out and stow it away.

The only critique I have is that the graph reports readings only for the last 7 days. I'm not sure if more than that is stored or can be stored somewhere in the Apex or on Fusion, but that would increase its utility significantly.

ca1ore
02/09/2017, 04:58 PM
OK, thanks. Am thinking of using it mostly for my frag tank.

jason2459
02/10/2017, 09:32 AM
Does it have any updates that apogee did for their new 500's series for better LED support?

Ombhatt10
08/27/2017, 09:02 AM
Greetings fellow hobbyists,

After having minimal success with my coral growth, I've decided to hone in on each component of my 90g mixed reef. My tank specs are as follows:

Livestock: tang/clowns/damsel/goby-shrimp pair/CUC
Coral: 2 hammers/few nems/few zoas/green slimer/3 headed duncan/2 headed candy cane
Sump: 10g sump with sock -> reefoctopus skimmer -->return pump --> chaeto also in-line carbon/GFO reactor <--> UV, and ATO setup
Flow: 2xjebao RW8s cross flow left to right, 1 RW15 from back to front
Lighting: 2 x Kessil a350s Tuna Blue (older version)

Monitoring: Apex Classic w/ pH, temp, salinity, & PAR

Chem:
Cal 450 - Dosing with ESV 2 part
Alk 8.5 - Dosing with ESV 2 part
Temp 79-82
SG 1.026

With all the toys Apex has to offer, I figured to invest in the PMK. The PAR readings with the Kessil a350s I felt were disappointingly below my expectations. While they were on max intensity and 8" above the tank, I was getting PAR readings barely at 90. So then I lowered both fixtures to 3" (still max) and now I'm getting somewhere in the 150s. Still, inadequate for my acros. After reading on here and on *********, I've seen that the PAR meter with the PMK reports lower than usual readings for LEDs. I've seen the video on BRS Investigates and still feel that I'm not getting my answer. Can someone shed some light (no pun intended) on my conundrum? My concerns are:
-Does this sound like an issue others are having?
-Is there caliberation for Kessil a350s LEDs that I need to program?
-Should I supplement with a T5 retrokit?
-Are the Radions better than Kessils? (I know about the shimmer vs non-shimmer factor)
-Where do I go from here?

Thanks in advance and happy reefing

Ombhatt10
08/27/2017, 09:17 AM
Greetings fellow hobbyists,

After having minimal success with my coral growth, I've decided to hone in on each component of my 90g mixed reef. My tank specs are as follows:

Livestock: tang/clowns/damsel/goby-shrimp pair/CUC
Coral: 2 hammers/few nems/few zoas/green slimer/3 headed duncan/2 headed candy cane
Sump: 10g sump with sock -> reefoctopus skimmer -->return pump --> chaeto also in-line carbon/GFO reactor <--> UV, and ATO setup
Flow: 2xjebao RW8s cross flow left to right, 1 RW15 from back to front
Lighting: 2 x Kessil a350s Tuna Blue (older version)

Monitoring: Apex Classic w/ pH, temp, salinity, & PAR

Chem:
Cal 450 - Dosing with ESV 2 part
Alk 8.5 - Dosing with ESV 2 part
Temp 79-82
SG 1.026

With all the toys Apex has to offer, I figured to invest in the PMK. The PAR readings with the Kessil a350s I felt were disappointingly below my expectations. While they were on max intensity and 8" above the tank, I was getting PAR readings barely at 90. So then I lowered both fixtures to 3" (still max) and now I'm getting somewhere in the 150s. Still, inadequate for my acros. After reading on here and on *********, I've seen that the PAR meter with the PMK reports lower than usual readings for LEDs. I've seen the video on BRS Investigates and still feel that I'm not getting my answer. Can someone shed some light (no pun intended) on my conundrum? My concerns are:
-Does this sound like an issue others are having?
-Is there caliberation for Kessil a350s LEDs that I need to program?
-Should I supplement with a T5 retrokit?
-Are the Radions better than Kessils? (I know about the shimmer vs non-shimmer factor)
-Where do I go from here?

Thanks in advance and happy reefing

posted in error, meant to create new thread, my apologies