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Elo500
09/04/2015, 02:00 PM
Got my first container of red se pro salt. Reading instructions it's mixed by weight then mix till ph reached (not more than 4 hrs). I don't have a scale or ph meter but I do have a Refractometer. So where should I start with amount of salt for 5g bucket..1.5lb of salt is about ? Using a measuring cup?

The chart also recommends sg for tank types. Says 1.023 for softy tank. I've been buying 1.025 water from lfs and all seem happy. Or should I move down to 1.023 using this salt?

Why the 4hr limit? How long should I run a Powerhead before I test with Refractometer? (At 77f). Is 30 min enough to resolve salt?

Thanks

Opus123
09/04/2015, 02:10 PM
I don't wait around with my salt like a lot of people do. I pour in a cup and wait a couple of minutes and then test sg. I keep doing this until I get near my desired 1.024. Red Sea Pro has always mixed really well for me compared to other brands. I will then let it mix for around 20 to 30 minutes then in the tank it goes.

sixpackgarage
09/04/2015, 02:48 PM
I have a 2 gallon bucket, dump in 1 cup of mix, pour in RODI water, use a plastic bristle brush to mix it for about 1 minute, then slowly siphon it into my tank. I don't test it, but when I have, it usually comes in at 1.025-26

cmcoker
09/04/2015, 03:07 PM
I would add salt to water, not water to salt. I would worry about alk and calcium precipitating if you add the water to the salt. I use about half a cup salt to a gallon of rodi. Usually hits at 1.026, but I currently use the blue bucket. IIRC, the ratio was the same for red sea Pro.

Oh, and I usually mix about 30min, check salinty

Sapelo
09/04/2015, 03:37 PM
+1 salt to water NOT water to salt.
Red Sea Pro usually (put not always) runs 2.5 cups salt to 5 gallons. I usually mix a little under (I do 40 gallons at a time), run a circulation fan 30 minutes, and then test.
I try my very best to hold at 1.025.
I do love this salt though, mixes very clean and so far has been very consistent.

sixpackgarage
09/04/2015, 04:11 PM
I don't see why it would make any difference whether you add salt to water, or vice versa. I've done both, just find adding water to salt less likely to splatter or get my measuring cup wet (which would require me to clean and dry it each time..). I've never seen precipitation, nor are my parameters off as they should be if there was any precipitation.

thegrun
09/04/2015, 04:52 PM
I don't see why it would make any difference whether you add salt to water, or vice versa. I've done both, just find adding water to salt less likely to splatter or get my measuring cup wet (which would require me to clean and dry it each time..). I've never seen precipitation, nor are my parameters off as they should be if there was any precipitation.

...because when you mix water into the salt you get supersaturated salinity and will see more calcium precipitation because of it.

thegrun
09/04/2015, 05:00 PM
A couple of tips when mixing Red Sea Pro or any of the high alkalinity/calcium reef mix salts.
1. Mix it in cool water, yes it will take a very little bit longer to dissolve that way, but you will also get a lot less calcium precipitation.
2. Only run your powerhead mixing pump long enough for all the salt to dissolve, if you run it longer you are again likely to get some calcium precipitation. I usually run my pump for an hour, although it looks clear within 15 minutes.

dkeller_nc
09/05/2015, 06:41 AM
...because when you mix water into the salt you get supersaturated salinity and will see more calcium precipitation because of it.

Yep. This is also the reason that you need to protect your salt mix from high humidity - the salt is hygroscopic (water-loving), and will absorb moisture from the air. Because the calcium chloride and the sodium carbonate/bicarbonate in the mix is fundamentally incompatible, all that's required to form insoluble calcium carbonate is some moisture. That's why salt that's been stored in a high humidity location (even if it's in a sealed bag - plastic bags still allow some degree of moisture transpiration through the plastic) can turn rock-hard. It can still be used, but a lot of precipitated calcium carbonate will be left on the bottom of the mixing bucket, and the seawater produced will be lacking in calcium and alkalinity.

BTW - never mix up seawater and use it without checking the specific gravity, particularly if measuring by volume. Because the density of the salt mix can vary quite a lot from batch-to-batch, an "eyeball" mix without a refractometer check can result in a good deal of variation of specific gravity.

oseymour
09/05/2015, 06:48 PM
I have a 2 gallon bucket, dump in 1 cup of mix, pour in RODI water, use a plastic bristle brush to mix it for about 1 minute, then slowly siphon it into my tank. I don't test it, but when I have, it usually comes in at 1.025-26

Wow. I wouldn't take this risk. I have a scoop that usually mixes my Red Sea Coral Pro to about 1.025 SG but I still test it every time. Every now and again it's off by a little.

Dogshowgrl
09/05/2015, 07:39 PM
The only reason they recommend on the bag 1.023 is the magnesium can get high at 1.025 with the RS PRO. We were finding that trend with people using the premixed water at the store when we mixed the pro at 1.025. We started mixing at 1.023 and most things improved for customers. The tanks that need the extra magnesium and calcium are already dosing, so for us it made sense. Most softies and LPS don't use up the magnesium and calcium and it will creep up on you. Just stay on top of your testing and see if you want to change your SG. Nobody knows your tank like you.

bertoni
09/05/2015, 09:02 PM
I'd keep the SG at 1.0264, which is the canonical average. Higher magnesium should be safe enough, and if it's not, I'd switch salt brands. Many saltwater animals are osmoconformers, and cannot regulate their internal SG.

OoooDRAGONoooo
09/06/2015, 01:51 AM
Hi.i use red sea coral pro,i do not see high mag levels.just the opposite.i appear to be dosing a lot more mag than anything else lately.just tested dt water and calcium was 400. Mag 1200 sg 1.024,ph8.1 temp 26 Oc kh 8 .i do 25 percent water change monthly.

CStrickland
09/06/2015, 02:57 PM
Red Sea made this video about how to mix their salt and why.
http://youtu.be/UlIHJ02NaKk

The basic idea is the salt should be a little higher in the things your tank uses up because you aren't replacing all the water when you do a change. So it has to be over saturated to make up the difference. But water can only hold so much of those elements before they won't stay dissolved, so you want to get it in the tank where it can spread out.

bertoni
09/06/2015, 07:35 PM
The basic idea is the salt should be a little higher in the things your tank uses up because you aren't replacing all the water when you do a change. So it has to be over saturated to make up the difference.
That makes no sense to me at all. I don't see how that can work.

CStrickland
09/06/2015, 09:21 PM
That makes no sense to me at all. I don't see how that can work.
did you watch the vid?

say you want your tank to have X ppm of element Y, but your animals have consumed that element. You can either replace all of the water with new water that has X ppm of element Y, or you can replace some of the water with new water that has more than X ppm of element Y.

The top end of the claimed range for rscp salt mixed at 35 ppt is alk 12.7, Ca 475, mg 1420. According to the Red Sea, you are more likely to get all of those into your tank (rather than lose them to precipitation) by mixing in cooler water for less than 4 hrs. I don't know why they would go to the trouble if it weren't true, maybe to be all "our salt is sooo buuufff and saturated you can't even warm it past 78* !!!" so people will be more likely to buy it? That seems like a stretch though...

bertoni
09/06/2015, 09:36 PM
The animals are not consuming all the elements in the salt mix at the same rate. That's why we dose calcium and alkalinity as supplements.

CStrickland
09/06/2015, 09:54 PM
The animals are not consuming all the elements in the salt mix at the same rate. That's why we dose calcium and alkalinity as supplements.

Besides Coral Pro, Red Sea also markets a salt called Marine Salt that is formulate to be "ideal for fish and invertebrate systems or for low-nutrient tanks where the hobbyist supplements all of the individual elements on a regular basis."

I think the RSCP is meant to give an across-the-board bump that the reefer can then tweak to their liking by dosing if desired, whereas RSMS at 420-440 Ca, 1250-1310 Mg, 7.8-8.2 Alk leaves more responsibility for tweaking levels to the aquarist. I haven't seen the same saturation caveats for the Marine Salt as the Coral Pro though I suppose the saturation would depend on the ph of the freshly mixed water too so maybe they are making assumptions about people aerating it?

bertoni
09/07/2015, 06:16 PM
I think the whole concept makes no sense. Over time, the SG of the tank would rise, if nothing else, unless some corrective action were taken.

CStrickland
09/07/2015, 06:54 PM
Can you explain why the sg would rise?

bertoni
09/07/2015, 07:36 PM
Well, you're adding salt, which is largely sodium chloride and other ingredients not consumed by the animals. SG will raise to match whatever is being added during water changes. That's how water changes work, moving the tank towards the parameters in the change water.

CStrickland
09/07/2015, 08:05 PM
Say you run your tank @ 1.026, and you take out 5g of water and add 5g of water mixed to 1.026 using RSCP salt. Say the 1.026 water you took out is 7 alk, 400 Ca, and 1200 mg. After the change it will be higher in those values (between 7-13 alk, 400-475 ca, 1200-1420 mg; depending how much water remained in tank).

Isn't the SG still going to be 1.026?

dkeller_nc
09/07/2015, 08:52 PM
Say you run your tank @ 1.026, and you take out 5g of water and add 5g of water mixed to 1.026 using RSCP salt. Say the 1.026 water you took out is 7 alk, 400 Ca, and 1200 mg. After the change it will be higher in those values (between 7-13 alk, 400-475 ca, 1200-1420 mg; depending how much water remained in tank).

Isn't the SG still going to be 1.026?

Yes. The bigger problem is that it's generally not possible to maintain a tank's Ca and Alk with actively growing corals by water changes alone unless one's doing massive water changes (a few folks out there do 100% replacement - scary as heck if you ask me). Randy Holmes Farley wrote an excellent article on this topic here (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/). The chart of what happens to calcium concentrations in the water when the aquarist is doing 30% daily water changes is quite revealing.

CStrickland
09/07/2015, 09:23 PM
that is interesting. To be clear though, no one is saying not to dose ever.

Personally, I use a brand with less of a bump than rscp, and top pff with kalk. This seems to be the most cost effective way for me to keep things in line because I don't have demanding corals so I guess the salt mix keeps the mg high enough to hold the ca and alk that I add. I think if I were using a salt brand that only mixed to the levels that I wanted to ultimately maintain in my tank (as opposed to slightly higher) I would eventually get depleted in at least mg, maybe iron and other stuff too idk. As my coral grow and become needier, I can dose alot more or buy a buffier salt like rscp and dose a little more. But for right now it'd be overkill. I do plan to start a 1% daily regimen now that I have a rodi, curious to see how that pans out.

I also think relying just on salt would be expensive, rscp is like $75 a bucket. There's gotta be a point of diminishing return where you are going broke on salt to avoid buying pickle lime and driveway de-icer, that's not wise.

bertoni
09/07/2015, 09:24 PM
I'm not sure anymore what you meant. You stated that the change water should be oversaturated, but maybe you mean just in the elements that the organisms consume? I thought you meant that the SG of the change water should be higher than 1.026, in terms of this case.

Technically, if the calcium, alkalinity, and magnesium in the water for changes are higher than the tank levels, then the SG of change water must be higher, since those levels affect SG. The total difference will be small, though.

CStrickland
09/07/2015, 09:33 PM
I see, yeah I meant the things the tank uses, not the salt itself.
The basic idea is the salt should be a little higher in the things your tank uses up because you aren't replacing all the water when you do a change. So it has to be over saturated to make up the difference. But water can only hold so much of those elements before they won't stay dissolved, so you want to get it in the tank where it can spread out.

That's why I was giving all those numbers at 35ppt, when mixed to normal salinity this brand has higher alk, ca, and mg to make up for some of the depletion by animals to allow for less dosing. The manufacturer claims that this results in an unstable or over saturated (in those elements) water which ought therefore to be mixed cold and used in 4 hours.

I couldn't figure out what the confusion was there, haha :)