Hey RCs! Need help solving a puzzle...the tomb of death.

[HeadstrongRSS]

Hey everyone, sooo I need some help. Bear with me, it's somewhat long. I'm somewhat new to this hobby, but really do a bunch of research. Wifey thinks I'm obsessed. I have a 36g bowfront, hob Aquaclear 70, 800 GPH cheapo circulation pump, jager 150w heater setup that I've been trying to get going and am having some bad luck.

I started with green spotted puffers...a fresh-to-then-brackish fish. Just one, with lots of decoration, crushed coral, etc. I had done a fishless cycle, using pure (nothing-added) ammonia and keeping it at 4ppm until finally nitrites dropped to 0 and nitrate appeared. 90% water change, then did another 4ppm ammonia, waited 24 hours, retest to see if there is 0 ammonia or nitrite. If good, stocking time. This is the process I go each time cycling. I use the saltwater API liquid tests btw.

I picked one out, So he had lots to do, I fed a variety of foods, gut loaded live ghost or brine shrimp, etc. Super social, greeted me, etc. I checked water daily, no levels until end of week a tiny bit of nitrate. I did a 33% water change each week, as told by thepufferforum peeps. Everything good for about 3 weeks...then one day, he doesn't come out. I look deeper, he's dead. No warning. No other inhabitants. Discouranged, I doubled down on research, looking for IPs, etc.

I get another...same process. But this one, dead, 1 week. LFS is confused, says they're touchy, tests my water. All good levels. Meh. This got me down, I took a month off, ended up having to re-cycle. But I got another...he's looking healthy for about 6 weeks...then one day, he doesn't eat. Next day, dead. WTH!

I give up, convinced the GSP is too touchy. Scaleless, no gill covers, stress-able, prone to IPs. Fast forward to now, 2 months ago. I restart, wanting a FOLWR. I purchased 8lb of live rock from LFS, seeded it, let it sit with some lava rock and rainbow rock pieces and no fish, and cycled the aquarium using the same process. All saltwater is mixed in a 20g trash can (w/ no other use) using instant ocean salt, a bit of PRIME, overnight with 2 heaters and 2 circulation pumps. All clear, refractometer reads 1.023. Right on! I use buckets to transfer water. I buy 2 captive bread ocellaris clownfish and a bicolor blenny. Wifey ended up loving these 2 chromis, and it was all they had, so we took them.

Introduced them all to the aquarium, blenny 1st, chromis next, clowns last. They all take to it right away, all are swimming amongst themselves, all eat. Day 2, 2 chromis dead. My bro thinks he saw the clownfish attack them, but I don't see marks. Just dead in the aragonite/crushed coral. I learned about clownfish aggression, assumed it was that because the chromis really need 6 or more - I chalk it up to a bad choice. 2 days pass, all fish cruse around, eat, have fun. I wake up, blenny is under the heater, grey, striped, stressed. I panick, fish him out, put him in the cycled 3g hospital w/ air stone, fresh tank water, some algae-tabs, small heater. Come home, dead. Both clownfish are merry. Right now, I watch them have fun flying down the circulation pump current, over and over. They're eating. Greeting me. Excited for food. They seem to cuddle sometimes, and now they're the last ones standing.

What IN THE WORLD can be going on here? I cant figure out if I'm the unluckiest guy in the world, or if there is something else dangerous in my tap water, or what. Got Culligan coming out to test, just checked dissolved solids and it's 432. Could that be it? I recently found out that the water softener had been operating at like 15% efficiency...over hard water? Doesn't that just apply to corals and invertebrates? I fear my clowns are doomed...this setup has an evil reputation, despite my best efforts. Each AM is a 'let's see who's dead now' ritual. I hate it. I'm now looking at RODI systems...bah. I'm losing my resolve here. Can anyone shed any light to what even COULD be happening? LFS is stumped. HELP! For the sake of the clowns! :D

[Sk8r]

What leaps out at me is 'lava rock,' which is probably vesicular basalt or the like, and is high in metals---usually iron, which is not as bad as some, but still that's one potential issue. Lava is basaltic, a cocktail of manganese, sodium, silicates, iron, magnesium---many ok, but we're not sure in what doses, and saltwater is a buzzsaw when it comes to dissolving metals.

2-4 days lethality sounds like poison of some sort. Another mystery killer is leakage of electricity into the water, usually a cracked heater, or something with exposure, and electricity can flow with water, sometimes: had my own ro/di tub delivering quite a kick.

The other possibility is kidney damage from acclimation procedures. Don't acclimate if your salinity is already a match. Over-acclimation (beyond 30 min) can kill in about 3 days if the bag for some reason is charged with co2 and the water is charged with fish waste: causes the fishy ammonium to convert to poisonous ammonia as the ph drops when the co2 is released when the bag opens.

You seem to be looking for a delayed killer. Cyanide capture on the fish at the source the lfs is buying from is a remote possibility. I don't know that a store could stay in business if that were the case.

[jjvanb]

You mention your tap water. Are you using it as is for top off? Are you pre treating in some way to remove the chlorine / chloramines ???

[Cymonous]

With a TDS that high, your tap water more than likely has at least some copper in it. Your rock and sand now has copper and any other bad elements in it.

I would highly highly highly suggest getting a RO/DI unit. For now, I would go buy some distilled water from the store and start over your quarantine tank. Empty and clean out your Quarantine tank and use the distilled water to make salt water. Match the salinity of your display tank and get the clowns into the quarantine tank.

As for your display, I would suggest getting new sand and rock. When you get your RO/DI unit, make new water and mix salt in a separate container. Add your rock first, then sand, then water. Cycle again.


Edit: Oh and don't use lava rock or any other rock meant for freshwater.

[Cymonous]

You mention your tap water. Are you using it as is for top off? Are you pre treating in some way to remove the chlorine / chloramines ???

I'm sorry, but treating Tap Water with a TDS of 432 is not going to help much.

[gone fishin]

I agree the lava rock jumps out as a potential issue.

What type of circulation do you have in your tank? power heads or just the return pump. Low O2 could be an issue.

I would also suggest you look into QT fish before going into the DT, doing this will eliminate disease and illness issues in the DT.

I also agree with the RO/DI

[Sk8r]

A diagnostic tool AND a help is PolyFilter---put a 6x6 sheet in your water flow. If it turns blue it's copper, red, I think iron, brown, organics, etc.---but the good news is---it's also absorbed and bound the metal or contaminant. If you do find a contaminant, simply run PolyFilter until it no longer turns that color.

There are also voltage checkers that can find stray voltage in your tank.

I personally think that something in the water is the likely culprit.

[g_langley]

HELP! For the sake of the clowns! :D

As advised, you need to get an RO Unit to remove nasties. You could also start swapping out the Lava rock for Live Rock.

Did you calibrate the refractometer?

[CStrickland]

Dosing Prime should take care of the chlorimines and metals and stuff in the tap water. It's not like your trying to grow coral. I guess there could be some other contaminant, but idk what that would be. I do wonder about alkalinity. Some municiple water supplies have a fair amount, but our salt mixes boost it too, combined with frequent large changes and not much consuming it, you might have a lot in there. That can bother fish and make them susceptible to other issues because their immune system is suppressed, I think.

Also, acclimation and gas exchange like others said.

[Sk8r]

The problem with using Prime to deal with heavy metals and copper is that they're not removed, but converted to a 'salt' form that sinks to the bottom and remains there---depending on the ph. Should the ph fall drastically, they would come back into solution. Of course the ph that would do that is not a good one, but it remains a double threat.

I do agree that Prime might solve an immediate situation, but I'd still want to know the source of the problem. It's a real good idea, however, for the immediate welfare of any survivors.

[CStrickland]

I'm thinking that the fact that OP has been treating the water all along with prime weighs against (but doesn't eliminate) metal toxicity or chloramine poisoning.

[Bent]

I used lava rock for years back in the day before we had live rock and never had a problem. Even kept an octo in a tank for a year and a half loaded with it.

[Sk8r]

Depends on the lava source: it's unique to each volcano, though grossly similar. I've used it too, a couple of rocks, and was likewise lucky, but I think the origin was not where I am now, (WA), which is real metal-rich.

[Reef Frog]

Getting your water softener working well will help extend the life of your RODI filters.

You didn't describe your aclimation or QT procedure. This is what dooms many fish but is so easy to get right once you have the right information. Combine this with the stress of s new tank, iffy water & possible aggression...and the cards get stacked against you and the fish.

If you toss the volcanic rock, make good water with an RO unit & use a QT, I think your luck will improve dramatically. GL!

[billsreef]

Couple of thoughts from the fish end. I have always found green spotted puffers to do better on the fresh side of brackish, not full salt. Chromis are dirt cheap, this means they are are crammed too many to the shipping box, and otherwise treated poorly throughout the supply chain from collection to LFS... leading to poor survival rates shortly after purchase.

[HeadstrongRSS]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I want to take the time to answer everyone. Again, this is all sincerely appreciated!

First, an update. The Clowns are still having a ball, eating everything I throw at them, playing in the circulation pump current. Super brightly colored. Greeting me. Eating flake, mysis shrimp, carnivore pellets. Spoke with LFS today after they tested all water...they think I'm just having bad luck. Doesn't feel that way...still looking at RODI options now, though LFS says it doesn't matter except for algae control and invertebrates/corals. regardless, I'm not adding a thing and am watching my clowns closely while I investigate the RODI systems...

(Sk8r) Lava Rock: Yeah, I have one piece of purchased live rock in the aquarium, with other lava rock that the shop I bought it from. I was told by them that this would be a suitable solution, as the lava rock would become live over time. They use all sorts of lava rock around. So it appears this is not good.

(Sk8r) Electricity/heater: I initially suspected that, because I just had some top fin one....it was a cheapo, so I decided to spring for a Eheim Jager 150...which a lot of people swore by due to some anti-overheating functionality. This death trap has spanned both heaters now (3 puffers were the top fin, 2 chromis and blenny were jager), I was actually more worried about the circulation pump I have. $9 on amazon for the SUNSUN 800 seems awfully cheap.

I need to look into those voltage checkers and polyfilter you mention. I will. Wonder how costly...

(Sk8r) Acclimation: Took 20 minutes of actual water acclimation. Added a cup of tank water every 5 mins, then after 2 of those, netted and added to the tank. All after letting them float in the bags for 20 minutes to get temp adjusted.

(jjvanb) treating water: Prime, 1 ml per gal of new water...I typically go 1 ml for 8g WC. No, I never add untreated tap water. It mixes for no less than 12 hours when I mix SW.

(Cymonous) TDS: I need to correct this one. It's 302 for tap water, I was measuring the tank water, which looking closed was 400+ with a (10x) flashing...meaning the tank water was in the 4000's. I took it to the LFS today and tested for copper, no copper. :(

(gone fishin) Circulation: The AquaClear 70 hob filter on high flow, the 800 GPH circulation pump, and an airstone disk pumping out air suitable for a 50g aquarium. All on full blast. I even have the water 2" below the rim of the tank so that the filtered water from the Aquaclear splashes.

(g_langley) Refractometer: Yep, as instructed. With distilled, 3 drops, turned dial to baseline. I'm at 1.023.

(CStrickland) ...I know we have really hard water, I even have what appears to be a calcium buildup on my heater now. I have not measured it, but my water softener wasn't working well until a random service call out her diagnosed that. So I probably have really hard water. JUST fixed it though. I also worry that due to my issues, I do too much WC.

(Reef Frog) Acclimation I have in teh Sk8r post, but no QT for this one...I put all 5 in at the same time, as nothing was established in it previous to that. But your advice is noted.

(billsreef) The GSP was low-end brackish, though I never had one long enough to go the transition. Takes less than a .02 sg jump per week to not kill bacteria. The new SW era I have was after 3 GSP passed away. I gave up, as it's a somewhat difficult species to start with...plus had to keep a snail tank =\

[CStrickland]

(Cymonous) TDS: I need to correct this one. It's 302 for tap water, I was measuring the tank water, which looking closed was 400+ with a (10x) flashing...meaning the tank water was in the 4000's. I took it to the LFS today and tested for copper, no copper. :(

There's no point to reading the tds of your tank water. All tds tells you is whether you have things besides h2o in the water, they can be benign (like all the salt and poop in your tank water) or dangerous. The tds number is not an indication of "safety"

Might want to see what copper test the store used, the cheap API one doesn't go low enough to read amounts that are dangerous to coral, but it you had enough to irritate fish I think it would read that b/c it is in the range we use for treating ich. Also, the prime should be binding copper anyway.

[Sk8r]

Suggest this rather than removing lava rock. Get PolyFilter, and run a half sheet in the water flow. Read the instructions, including what colors it turns for what metal/contaminant...The good news is, as it 'reads' the problem, it also absorbs and removes it.

If you are getting a lot of a 'metal' color, that indicates a pretty signifiicant problem. if a little, not a big problem, and probably the PolyFilter itself will remove it.

That at least would prove or eliminate the rock as a problem.

As to whether rock can be a problem---one of mine, two tanks ago, turned out to be a petroleum tarball. Not everything that looks like one type of rock is that type of rock.

[HeadstrongRSS]

How quickly should I be checking for color with PolyFilter? And did it need to go on bottom of the filter types? Thanks!

P.S. Clowns still happy...I wonder how long until they consider the tank theirs and don't permit other fish...

[Sk8r]

It should show some color after 24 hours. If none, or if only brown, there's nothing it is able to pick up. Doesn't say there's nothing, but it eliminates most metals, ammonia, etc.

[HeadstrongRSS]

24 hrs later, no color. Clowns happy. 0 am, 0 ni, @5-10 na, 8.0 ph. Could 2 chromis and one bicolor blenny loss have been bad luck? If so, I've now got the situation I didn't want...having clowns claim it all and then introducing the 2 other fish I want for the aquarium. I'm gun shy now

[HeadstrongRSS]

Still good and healthy clownfish...

[Sk8r]

Size, again? If over 100, there are many species that can shove the clowns back.

[HeadstrongRSS]

Unfortunately not. The wife would only let me get a 36 gallon bowfront. Now that she sees all the fish that she can't have due to its small size, she's regretting that. Lol. I'm a bit worried about even four fish is pushing it...

[joshbrookkate]

I have a 75g. I had plans for lots of fish but as I started to watch the awesome things growing on my live rock and later added things like an anemone and a fire shrimp, i took it slow and changed my mind. I'm more intrigued with the corals, inverts and hitchikers in the tank than I am with the fish now. I have 2 clowns, too, who are hosted by an anemone and they lay eggs every month. So many awesome things in that tank besides the fish!
Sounds like you're enjoying those clowns! Once your tank is in good shape and seasoned for 6 months or so, get them a nem. And decide from there.
Ps - don't buy anything that you can't use on a larger tank. Sounds like you (and your wife) may upgrade in the future. Lol