Purchasing an Established Tank. Help Needed!

[Au_ThatHurt]

Hey everyone. I am diving into the hobby for the first time this weekend and have been preparing for quite some time now...nervous as hell. I am purchasing this tank (attached is a pic) and moving the 30g across state lines (about an hour and a half away) this weekend. After planning for the move I have had many questions come to mind that I could use some help with.

Some info: 350$ total and comes with an octopus skimmer, heater, a powerhead (not sure what type), salinity/temp gauge, LED light (unsure what kind atm), all the LR, livestock (two clowns, yellowtail damsel, neon dottyback & an orange and purple lobster), food/cleaning supplies, and test kits. The tank has been established for 2 years and it looks to me (:hmm4:) as if the owner had taken good care of it.

1) What are your initial thoughts on the look of the tank!? I noticed, what looks to be an aiptasia bloom on the right side of the pic? Can I scrub/rid the affected rocks? Could the addition of a peppermint shrimp or two solve my issue? (not sure if the lobster would have to be removed, if so would my LFS take the lobster?) I know aiptasia is normally brown but if it was not given enough light I have heard they can turn a white color.

2) do I need to have a portable heater or would putting the livestock in a cooler for that time be fine for an hour and a half? (two clowns, neon dotty, purple/orange lobster)

3) Should I just keep the old substrate or would mixing some of the old substrate with new live substrate be a good idea?

If you have any major things that come to mind that I need to make sure I do during this process it would be much appreciated if you let me know. I know that purchasing an established tank is not recommended for one starting in the hobby but I feel as if I needed to jump on the opportunity at this deal as I am pretty sure I would spend a ton more for the same setup if new. I will be finished with making a 20g sump for the setup later today and really care for the well being of these fish and the lobster dood so any info that you have at all will help me immensely. Thanks for your help guys...wouldn't have any idea on what I am doing if it were not for you!

[Spacekitty]

I can't open the picture because my computer has been being weird, but if you do have aipasia (you will likely get it at some point anyway), don't scrub at it. That will just release even more of them into the water and you will be infested. I love using peppermint shrimp, but you would need a few if you wanted a decent chance at them actually eating it since they are hit or miss. I got lucky and the one I put in my tank did end up munching on it and does a great job. You could also use AiptasiaX. That works really well IF you use it correctly.

I would recommend figuring out what type of LED lights you have because if you intend to get corals, you will need to know how good your lights are so you know what you can get or whether you should just replace them.

I would personally recommend taking out the old substrate and putting in new. Especially if the tank has been running 2 years, you have no idea what is sitting in that sand and mixing it up in the move would release all of the nasty stuff. Best to just get new sand completely.

Keep the rock submerged or at least moist during the trip to keep the beneficial stuff on it alive.

For that short of a trip, the livestock would be perfectly fine in a cooler without a heater as long as you don't keep your car at some awfully cold temperature. If it is snowing in your car, you might have an issue.

Octopus skimmers have pretty good reviews so as long as it is good for that size tank, that is a good skimmer. What test kits are you getting? You may end up needing others depending on what they are including.

Edit: Also, as a side note, just know smaller tanks are harder to manage for beginners because the water quality can be touchy. The 30g isn't terrible and the sump will help A LOT, but just keep it in mind and make sure to test your water often, especially in the beginning.

[thegrun]

1. The tank looks fine. Could you get a closer picture of the possible aiptasia, they could be but it is also possible they are some other type of coral, the picture just isn't clear enough to make a good ID. If they are aiptasia, I would gouge them out and then cover the affected rocks with kalk paste. Peppermint shrimp are kind of hit and miss when it comes to aiptasia.
2. Assuming the outside temperatures are not too extreme, you should be fine without a heater, although I would have some frozen ice in zip lock bags for cooling purposes just in case the water overheats.
3. I would not reuse the sand, it will contain a lot of trapped detritus that if released could start a new cycle, killing off all your livestock. Start fresh with dry sand. Be sure to wash the sand well before using it, I would have the sand washed a day or two before the move just so you don't waste a lot of time the day of the move washing sand. To wash the sand place 5 pounds or so at a time in a 5 gallon bucket. Use a garden hose at full flow to agitate the sand. The finer grains of sand will overflow the top of the bucket, leaving the larger grains behind. Continue to agitate the water until it runs clear. I would not use "live" sand as it can contain more dead than live organisms and has the potential to start a new cycle (and cost more to purchase since you are paying for water). Try to reuse as much clean water from the old system as possible to lessen the shock of new water chemistry on your livestock. Once the water from the old tank starts to get murky from stirred up detritus, don't reuse that water. Have plenty of new premade and preheated saltwater on hand to make up for the lost water. I would plan on pre-making 50% of your display tank's volume and have it ready for use. 5 gallon buckets with lids are your best friend for a tank move. Anything larger becomes very heavy to move, although for longer moves ice chests work well at maintaining water temperatures. You can use bubble wrap to help keep your rock with corals attached from being smashed against the sides of the buckets during transport. Start by filling three buckets 1/3 with water from the tank and then add the rock from the system to one of the buckets. Continue filling buckets first with water, then rock until you have removed all the rock. Save a couple of half full buckets of clean water from the tank for the fish. Once all the rock has been removed, the fish should be easy to catch. Some fish will burrow into the sand to hide so if you come up short on your fish count you may need to sift through the sand to find the missing fish. Once you have everything back at your home and the tank in place, first set up your rock. Try to minimize the amount of time the rock is out of the water. If aquascaping the rock takes you awhile, pour some of the saltwater from the old set-up on the rock to keep it wet. Once the rock is set fill the tank with all the old water and whatever new water is necessary. You can just dump the fish directly from the buckets into the new tank to prevent injuring the fish or adding stress to the fish by netting them. Then start circulating the water, get the heaters running and the rest of the equipment.
Tank moves take much longer than one would first suspect. Plan on a very long day. Best of luck and keep us posted with your results!

[Au_ThatHurt]

I can't open the picture because my computer has been being weird, but if you do have aipasia (you will likely get it at some point anyway), don't scrub at it. That will just release even more of them into the water and you will be infested. I love using peppermint shrimp, but you would need a few if you wanted a decent chance at them actually eating it since they are hit or miss. I got lucky and the one I put in my tank did end up munching on it and does a great job. You could also use AiptasiaX. That works really well IF you use it correctly.

I would recommend figuring out what type of LED lights you have because if you intend to get corals, you will need to know how good your lights are so you know what you can get or whether you should just replace them.

I would personally recommend taking out the old substrate and putting in new. Especially if the tank has been running 2 years, you have no idea what is sitting in that sand and mixing it up in the move would release all of the nasty stuff. Best to just get new sand completely.

Keep the rock submerged or at least moist during the trip to keep the beneficial stuff on it alive.

For that short of a trip, the livestock would be perfectly fine in a cooler without a heater as long as you don't keep your car at some awfully cold temperature. If it is snowing in your car, you might have an issue.

Octopus skimmers have pretty good reviews so as long as it is good for that size tank, that is a good skimmer. What test kits are you getting? You may end up needing others depending on what they are including.

Edit: Also, as a side note, just know smaller tanks are harder to manage for beginners because the water quality can be touchy. The 30g isn't terrible and the sump will help A LOT, but just keep it in mind and make sure to test your water often, especially in the beginning.

Thanks for the response Spacekitty! I do plan on upgrading the light within the next month so I can add some LPS or softies. As far as the new substrate goes, would new live substrate cause a harsh nitrogen/ammonia cycle? I am afraid that the new substrate and the move itself may be too harsh on the fish, but I am just as afraid of releasing those unknowns in the sand during the move :headwally:. I also have some big rubbermaids ready for the trip and coolers for the livestock so I am good to go there.

Oh yea and I'll make sure to do weekly water changes until I can reach some sort of stability! Thanks again spacekitty!

[Au_ThatHurt]

1. The tank looks fine. Could you get a closer picture of the possible aiptasia, they could be but it is also possible they are some other type of coral, the picture just isn't clear enough to make a good ID. If they are aiptasia, I would gouge them out and then cover the affected rocks with kalk paste. Peppermint shrimp are kind of hit and miss when it comes to aiptasia.
2. Assuming the outside temperatures are not too extreme, you should be fine without a heater, although I would have some frozen ice in zip lock bags for cooling purposes just in case the water overheats.
3. I would not reuse the sand, it will contain a lot of trapped detritus that if released could start a new cycle, killing off all your livestock. Start fresh with dry sand. Be sure to wash the sand well before using it, I would have the sand washed a day or two before the move just so you don't waste a lot of time the day of the move washing sand. To wash the sand place 5 pounds or so at a time in a 5 gallon bucket. Use a garden hose at full flow to agitate the sand. The finer grains of sand will overflow the top of the bucket, leaving the larger grains behind. Continue to agitate the water until it runs clear. I would not use "live" sand as it can contain more dead than live organisms and has the potential to start a new cycle (and cost more to purchase since you are paying for water). Try to reuse as much clean water from the old system as possible to lessen the shock of new water chemistry on your livestock. Once the water from the old tank starts to get murky from stirred up detritus, don't reuse that water. Have plenty of new premade and preheated saltwater on hand to make up for the lost water. I would plan on pre-making 50% of your display tank's volume and have it ready for use. 5 gallon buckets with lids are your best friend for a tank move. Anything larger becomes very heavy to move, although for longer moves ice chests work well at maintaining water temperatures. You can use bubble wrap to help keep your rock with corals attached from being smashed against the sides of the buckets during transport. Start by filling three buckets 1/3 with water from the tank and then add the rock from the system to one of the buckets. Continue filling buckets first with water, then rock until you have removed all the rock. Save a couple of half full buckets of clean water from the tank for the fish. Once all the rock has been removed, the fish should be easy to catch. Some fish will burrow into the sand to hide so if you come up short on your fish count you may need to sift through the sand to find the missing fish. Once you have everything back at your home and the tank in place, first set up your rock. Try to minimize the amount of time the rock is out of the water. If aquascaping the rock takes you awhile, pour some of the saltwater from the old set-up on the rock to keep it wet. Once the rock is set fill the tank with all the old water and whatever new water is necessary. You can just dump the fish directly from the buckets into the new tank to prevent injuring the fish or adding stress to the fish by netting them. Then start circulating the water, get the heaters running and the rest of the equipment.
Tank moves take much longer than one would first suspect. Plan on a very long day. Best of luck and keep us posted with your results!

Thanks "grun!" I'll go out and purchase a few 5g buckets from home depot asap. So from what you're saying, the 15 to 20 gallons of water that I am bringing back with the livestock is enough to keep the tank in the same "cycle" that it previously was in? I assume the organisms from the LR will multiply and move into the new sand that I will be cleaning off two days before the move, which is fine as long as the water chemistry is good? Also, thanks for taking the time for that write-up grun...I'm definitely ready for a long few days :hammer:

[LuciDog]

Seems like a decent enough deal to me.

First. I'd bag that damsel, and drive it right to your LFS. They are nasty.

Fish will be fine during hour and a half move.

Don't reuse the substrate.

[Au_ThatHurt]

Seems like a decent enough deal to me.

First. I'd bag that damsel, and drive it right to your LFS. They are nasty.

Fish will be fine during hour and a half move.

Don't reuse the substrate.

I've heard nothing but abusive relationships starting with those damsels haha...I wasn't sure if my LFS would be down to take it. From what I have seen, everyone's LFS has taken their unwanted tank mates, but I am confused at how they prevent diseases like the ich if they just take freebies from random people :confused:. Also I asked grun above if the 15 to 20 gallons that I will be bringing back with the lifestock will be enough to provide a stable water column, but I didn't get an answer back yet. Do you think that it will be ok to just start with the new substrate while keeping the original 15 to 20 gals? Thanks for your help LuciDog! I appreciate it so very much!

[homer1475]

With a 30G tank(which minus displacement is probably more like 25G's or so actual water), that should be fine.

[Au_ThatHurt]

With a 30G tank(which minus displacement is probably more like 25G's or so actual water), that should be fine.

Ok! For some reason I just feel off taking away the old substrate but I know that it is probably going to be real mucked up anyway and require new sand. They're fish though...who needs sand anyway! Btw, do you know if Mr. Lobsta will be alright with feeding off the live rock until the sand can cultivate some of the little organisms? Thanks homer!

[CStrickland]

I am confused at how they prevent diseases like the ich if they just take freebies from random people :confused:

They don't. It's best to treat new fish as if they are infected with all manner of terrible diseases and quarantine them.

[LuciDog]

I've never actually moved a SW tank. Just its contents, into an already established, much larger tank.

But... What I would do if it was me.

Keep as much water as you can, then lay a piece of egg create down on the bottom of the tank. Place your rocks on top. Add 1/4 of your new sand and watch things closely (get an ammonia alert badge and a bottle of prime). Water change as soon as you need to.

In a week, as another 1/4 of it... And so on.

Like I said, I've never done it. Take it with a grain of salt. That's just how I would handle it.

[Au_ThatHurt]

They don't. It's best to treat new fish as if they are infected with all manner of terrible diseases and quarantine them.

I guess it just is too much of a task to keep the ich from affecting the LFS tanks. Worried that the damsel and lobster I give them won't have a good time :sad2:.

[Au_ThatHurt]

I've never actually moved a SW tank. Just its contents, into an already established, much larger tank.

But... What I would do if it was me.

Keep as much water as you can, then lay a piece of egg create down on the bottom of the tank. Place your rocks on top. Add 1/4 of your new sand and watch things closely (get an ammonia alert badge and a bottle of prime). Water change as soon as you need to.

In a week, as another 1/4 of it... And so on.

Like I said, I've never done it. Take it with a grain of salt. That's just how I would handle it.

Thanks Luci, you have convinced me to build a pvc pipe/eggcrate plenum for the bottom of the tank. I am going to clean the (non-live) sand extremely well and add only 1/4 every week like you have suggested too. Maybe a 1/4 to 1/2 to 1/4 kind of deal if all seems well after the first week. tyty!

[Sk8r]

Bucket the rock, toss the sand, toss the water, get new sand, put the fish into qt for as long as it takes the tank to cycle afresh (not long, with rock that established) and don't sweat the aiptasia. If your tank doesn't have some it's probably the exception. They come and they go, and if they get bad, there are ways to solve them. If you can id the particular rock, bag it separately, give it a 30 second dip of the area in hydrogen peroxide 3% solution as sold at drugstore, rinse, put in tank with the rest. It'll probably kill it. Minimum to cycle with really good rock is 5 days, but could be longer, and don't neglect to rinse the powder off the sand. Get aragonite, and rinse until you've got all off you can get.

[Au_ThatHurt]

Bucket the rock, toss the sand, toss the water, get new sand, put the fish into qt for as long as it takes the tank to cycle afresh (not long, with rock that established) and don't sweat the aiptasia. If your tank doesn't have some it's probably the exception. They come and they go, and if they get bad, there are ways to solve them. If you can id the particular rock, bag it separately, give it a 30 second dip of the area in hydrogen peroxide 3% solution as sold at drugstore, rinse, put in tank with the rest. It'll probably kill it. Minimum to cycle with really good rock is 5 days, but could be longer, and don't neglect to rinse the powder off the sand. Get aragonite, and rinse until you've got all off you can get.

Thanks Sk8r, really appreciate your knowledge and input. I would love more than anything to qt them until the tank is fresh but I currently only have a small 5 gallon tank (with a small filter/heater/powerhead) at my disposal which I would think is only capable of holding a fish or two :sad2:. Think that the two clowns and the neon dottyback would be ok in the qt for a week together? I would obviously have to contact the LFS and let them know ahead of time that I have to bring them a lobster and yellowtail damsel if I went this route too...have you ran into any LFS that did not accept "giveaways?" Thanks again!

[Sk8r]

I just pm'ed you, but i'm thinking you could qt the lobster in the 5 g (inverts tend to be kind of sensitive to conditions) and if you can't get the rest to safety at the lfs, you could set up fast (water made and warmed 2 days in advance of the move) and just trust the fish can tough out a minicycle. To get a lot of bacteria, I'd save as much of the sand as I could clean with the water that I'm throwing away from the old tank setup, and then just feed very very lightly, hoping that the cycle will be safe. I've done a re-setup that cycled in 5 days, and if you can just nurse it along for that long, it should survive. Clowns ARE damsels, and your little yellowtail is a damsel: that kind of fish can survive a cycle, if it's mild; I suspect your dottyback would, but you might want to let him room with the lobster for a week, just in case.
Sometimes the solution is a bit hairier and rougher than we'd like, but with care, survivable; and the fish might be safer in your care than being re-sold to who-know-what-level-of-skill at the lfs.

[heathlindner25]

this is basically a tank move... I don't see the reason for quarantine all the animals?
especially him being a new hobbyist

[Au_ThatHurt]

I just pm'ed you, but i'm thinking you could qt the lobster in the 5 g (inverts tend to be kind of sensitive to conditions) and if you can't get the rest to safety at the lfs, you could set up fast (water made and warmed 2 days in advance of the move) and just trust the fish can tough out a minicycle. To get a lot of bacteria, I'd save as much of the sand as I could clean with the water that I'm throwing away from the old tank setup, and then just feed very very lightly, hoping that the cycle will be safe. I've done a re-setup that cycled in 5 days, and if you can just nurse it along for that long, it should survive. Clowns ARE damsels, and your little yellowtail is a damsel: that kind of fish can survive a cycle, if it's mild; I suspect your dottyback would, but you might want to let him room with the lobster for a week, just in case.
Sometimes the solution is a bit hairier and rougher than we'd like, but with care, survivable; and the fish might be safer in your care than being re-sold to who-know-what-level-of-skill at the lfs.

thanks! msged you just now :thumbsup:

[Au_ThatHurt]

this is basically a tank move... I don't see the reason for quarantine all the animals?
especially him being a new hobbyist

I know sk8r is just trying to give the safest way to keep the fish alive nd well. If I can qt just the clowns+dottyback in the 5 gallon together while giving away the yellowtail and lobster, I think I may go that route in order to keep the stress levels down. Going to have to just figure it out within the next two days :fun5:

[heathlindner25]

Sounds good

[Au_ThatHurt]

Update here Everyone. The tank has been up and running in my house for a little over a week now. The nitrate levels are currently high and were imo "off the charts" when we first picked up the tank. The fish have been eating like champions and I have been hand feeding them once a day (a larger meal in the morning) but I am worried that the water parameters are not up to a good enough par for the fish and livestock to be happy.

I noticed a day after moving the tank into my house that the the male clown had a small white speck on his side (about the size of a grain of sand). The speck has since receded and is almost gone. It looked almost like a little dead scale coming off him which I thought could have been a result from the stressful move, but I noticed another white speck on the female clown which popped up today on the tip of her anal fin (best pics I could get of it below) and I immediately became worried at the possibility of lymphocystis after researching about clownfish diseases. I learned that lymphocystis usually appears to be more wart-like but as these specks are so small, it is impossible for me to determine the structure of the specks. The clowns seem to be doing great as they have been eating out of my hand with a voracious appetite and have been doing their mating dance with the male seizin out. Do you guys have an idea what the speck could be?

I also took two pictures of my ammonia test in two different lights which I could use some help with in reading the comparisons to the color card.

[oldbones]

I wouldn't be too worried about a single white spot or lump on your clown. Not to say it couldn't be the plague, but it might be nothing as well.

My female recently developed a big, white, pimple looking lump high on her side. By the very next day, it was all but gone and I wouldn't even have noticed the off colored spot in it's place if I hadn't been looking for it. That was a month ago, and no problems before or since.

I know you've heard this before, but hear it again because it's true. Those API kits are notoriously unreliable. The ammonia test in particular is unreliable down around zero. Do yourself a favor and think about replacing all that API stuff as funds become available. That being said, that test looks like it's just off zero, which may very well be zero. I wouldn't sweat that Ammonia test result.

Tank is looking good! Try as hard as you can to leave it alone for a couple more weeks. However, if you're like most of the rest of us and just can't do it, then go pick out an inexpensive Zoa frag or two. Make sure you pick up something like CoralRX or maybe Bayer (look it up) so you can dip those new frags for pests.

Have fun!!!

[Au_ThatHurt]

I wouldn't be too worried about a single white spot or lump on your clown. Not to say it couldn't be the plague, but it might be nothing as well.

My female recently developed a big, white, pimple looking lump high on her side. By the very next day, it was all but gone and I wouldn't even have noticed the off colored spot in it's place if I hadn't been looking for it. That was a month ago, and no problems before or since.

I know you've heard this before, but hear it again because it's true. Those API kits are notoriously unreliable. The ammonia test in particular is unreliable down around zero. Do yourself a favor and think about replacing all that API stuff as funds become available. That being said, that test looks like it's just off zero, which may very well be zero. I wouldn't sweat that Ammonia test result.

Tank is looking good! Try as hard as you can to leave it alone for a couple more weeks. However, if you're like most of the rest of us and just can't do it, then go pick out an inexpensive Zoa frag or two. Make sure you pick up something like CoralRX or maybe Bayer (look it up) so you can dip those new frags for pests.

Have fun!!!

Hey oldbones! thanks for the kind words. I actually woke up today to an inflamed left gill (you can see a pic on my other recent post) on my yellowtail damsel so I ended up putting the fish in QT and have begun a copper treatment. I am now in this situation for the next 10 to 12 weeks in case it was the dreaded ich. Man today was rough though :headwalls: It will be all worth it once they are happy and in the DT though!