Who lives with ich in their system

[Grnorton]

Ich showed up on my blue hippo tang, but now nobody in my tank shows any symptoms. I don't plan on adding any new fish and I plan on in 2 years or so upgrading tanks so I will be able to tear my tank down and qt them at that time and go ich free from that point forward. Who has seen success doing something like this? and please don't just respond with you need to treat asap. they are healthy and eating and breathing fine so im exploring all options before I risk losing my fish to treatment. especially my mag fox.

[Reefstarter2]

everyone has it , but most manage with it . good feeding , garlic ( debateable if that helps ) nori vitamin C I have used a product called Medic from Polyp labs . that I think helped a lot . I don't believe it goes away completely and just sits dormant kind of like us getting a cold

[Grnorton]

I know it can be eradicated I'm just wondering who has managed it with no issues

[jmm]

Four years ago I started up a 90 gallon reef tank. I put in, over the course of several weeks,
——2 Ocellaris Clownfish
——2 Rainfordi Goby
——Longnose Yellow Butterfly
——Radiant Wrasse
——Yellow Coris Wrasse
——Blue Girdled Angel

All were doing well.
And then: A Hippo Tang

The Hippo Tang, after a few days showed ich.
Over the next week everything but the two wrasses got ich.
Slowly, one by one they began to die.
The two Clown Fish were so covered they couldn't see and you couldn't tell what kind of fish they were. The two wrasses still didn't get it.

One clownfish died, one pulled through. The Hippo Tang cleared up completely.

I slowly replaced fish. A year later I upgraded to a 210. I had the fish store do it. They didn't use the sand but they did use all of the live rock and corals and fish. Nothing died. I now have a tank full of angels, butterflies, tangs (the original Hippo), wrasses, firefish, hawkfish and that remaining clownfish that didn't die. That's three years with no visible ich in that tank. I have added several fish in that three years and all did well.

Maybe the coral filters it out.

[Grnorton]

Hmm that's really interesting anybody have input on that?

[Dmorty217]

Ich can be present with no visible signs on fish and can remain that way forever. If the ich wasn't eradicated it's still there. My 220g has ich in it without a doubt, the 2 fish in the tank have never showed any signs of ich in the past 3 years but I know it's still present

[seamonster124]

This is what I do; please do not murder me if you disagree:
I got happy fat fish who laugh at the face of ich.....Until I screw up water conditions then they all break out. We know ich outbreaks are stress related so there's the answer. Every now and then I see a white dot, I feed a bit more, garlic soak, change socks, carbon, water change, etc. and it is usually gone within a few days.

[SNAKEMANVET]

I have Ich in my 75,being small and the fish haven't shown any symptoms in about 2 years.But now I am upgradeing to a larger tank and will be adding more fish I will be doing TTM on all my fish.

[Spar]

This is what I do; please do not murder me if you disagree:
I got happy fat fish who laugh at the face of ich.....Until I screw up water conditions then they all break out. We know ich outbreaks are stress related so there's the answer. Every now and then I see a white dot, I feed a bit more, garlic soak, change socks, carbon, water change, etc. and it is usually gone within a few days.

good husbandry like this can very well manage Ich with no deaths. i did this for years before I got sick of always being on the defensive. reef keeping life gets so much easier when you have Ich out of the way though, which is why I prefer to treat and QT. the problem is when people couple non-QT/treatment with poor husbandry and then wonder why others can manage Ich and they can not...

but not everyone has the time nor space so hopefully they can put the extra mile in to reduce stress as much as possible. keeping bioload down so fish aren't crammed, keeping water quality up and parameters consistent, etc.

re: garlic. whereas garlic itself does nothing for Ich (i.e. it doesn't make them jump off or anything like that which is the old theory), it does indirectly help the fish battle off an infestation by enticing the fish to eat regularly while being irritated by the parasite effects. you don't want to over use garlic though as there are longterm side effects from excessive use. regardless, if you plan to live with Ich, then garlic can save the day nicely for you when fish stop eating.

[seamonster124]

you don't want to over use garlic

Thanks for the great info. How much garlic would you say is too much? I use it whenever I remember which I would guess ends up being maybe 10 drops per week total. Is that too much?

[goliwala]

This is what I do; please do not murder me if you disagree:
I got happy fat fish who laugh at the face of ich.....Until I screw up water conditions then they all break out. We know ich outbreaks are stress related so there's the answer. Every now and then I see a white dot, I feed a bit more, garlic soak, change socks, carbon, water change, etc. and it is usually gone within a few days.

I am the same way, I have ich, it shows up on any new tang I introduce. I usually trade them in after they get too big for me. I have never done anything to treat ich, nothing at all but all my fish that show ich when I get them end up clean and very healthy. Water change every two weeks and feed well. Try not to stress your fish by hypo and meds.

[Reef908]

While I am not sure that it was Ich that killed my fish, I had 8 fish for about 2 years living without any signs of disease. When I moved cross country and set up the new tank, 48 hours between break down and set back up with same rock and mostly same water, fish seemed fine for about 3 days. Then within a 2 day period I had lost 4 fish that were eating and swimming fine. I quickly set up the QT with my seeded sponge and tank water and pulled all the fish. I ended up with just my two chromis left and a fallow tank for 73 days. My fish symptoms were lethargy, not eating, avoiding light so I treated for a few different issues in the QT. Long story short, you may live with the disease in the tank for the time being, but the stress of moving tanks may cause the fish to stress to the point that their immunity is lost once you get to that point.

[ca1ore]

It's my long-held opinion that there are two kinds of tanks - those with ich and those the owner 'believes' are ich free. Of the latter, some actually are ich free (and all use QT) while the remainder have latent ich just waiting for a canary.

Why some tanks are able to withstand ich and others not I cannot definitively say. Some fish are inherently more susceptible than others, fish health (and the slime coat) clearly has an affect, as does the potency of the ich strain. I think all of the 'little things' we do to combat ich make us feel better rather than actually doing anything to the parasite.

I have ich in my main display. I also have 45 mostly asymptomatic fish (including a canary) that eat well, are growing, and appear to be happy and healthy. The only fish that shows any spots is the Achilles, and only occasionally. Of all the fish I have added, only a sailfin tang showed spots, and then only once. So, yes, it's possible to mange ich.

[Grnorton]

It's my long-held opinion that there are two kinds of tanks - those with ich and those the owner 'believes' are ich free. Of the latter, some actually are ich free (and all use QT) while the remainder have latent ich just waiting for a canary.

Why some tanks are able to withstand ich and others not I cannot definitively say. Some fish are inherently more susceptible than others, fish health (and the slime coat) clearly has an affect, as does the potency of the ich strain. I think all of the 'little things' we do to combat ich make us feel better rather than actually doing anything to the parasite.

I have ich in my main display. I also have 45 mostly asymptomatic fish (including a canary) that eat well, are growing, and appear to be happy and healthy. The only fish that shows any spots is the Achilles, and only occasionally. Of all the fish I have added, only a sailfin tang showed spots, and then only once. So, yes, it's possible to mange ich.

So in your tank do the spots come and go? Are there times that you seem to see an increase? Have they gotten worse with time?

[ThRoewer]

Well, my current system has ich too.
I got a mild flare-up beginning of September, shortly after adding fish from two other systems. Certain fish seem to be completely immune while others got a rather mild case. By now it seems to have gone down to a level were all fish are symptom free.

I'm debating if I let my new tank run fallow for a while and then put the fish through TTM before adding them to the tank
The catch is that the current tanks are the sump and the refugium for the new tank so it isn't really a straight forward thing.

The biggest issue is the fallow period, or rather how long it would need to be making the whole thing worth the effort.
I know that the usual mantra here is 72 days. Though the study this is based on is rather sketchy and quite limited in its scope. To really trust this I would want to get an explanation why 72 days is the max and that it is of course the maximum for all possible ich strains out in the oceans of the world.
Unless somebody can show conclusively that there is a limiting factor like energy consumption during the dormant period that limits its time, I suspect that there are strains out there that can lay dormant for over a year (to bridge the time between monsoon or storm seasons for example).

The other interesting question is if there is a wake-up trigger like noticing the "smell" of fish slime nearby. It would be kind of extremely risky for Chryptocaryon to just hatch without being sure if there are fish around to infect, especially since the infection chances are slim to begin with in the wild. If Chryptocaryon would leave it all to chance it should have died out long time ago. So maybe nothing hatches until the now clean fish are added.
Though, if this is the case it might be possible to "draw" ich out of a system by rotating a couple of black mollies one by one through the system and then, after 2 days in the infected tank, cleaning them up in freshwater before the on them feeding parasites can fall off.
Kind of a reversed form of TTM.

Based on all this and the fact that the fish are doing fine as of now I wonder if it makes even sense to make the effort to eradicate ich from the system and put all fish at risk by through the stress of TTM or other clean-up methods.
I'm still debating it, but doing it would also mean that everyn new has to go through a stringent clean-up process which is quite an effort.

BTW: In the past I never bothered to eradicate ich from the system and I never had issues. Though I stopped having tangs in my tanks because they were always sick. After getting rid of those ich never again was an issue - It may have even died out which is IMO a real possibility if all fish in a system are at least partially immune.

[laga77]

So much for garlic. http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/

[ThRoewer]

Garlic does nothing to improve fish's health, likely rather the opposite. Reef fish really have no use for terrestrial plants.

What may actually help is mixing Beta Glucan (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/9/aafeature) powder into the fish's food. It's a known immune booster.

[ca1ore]

So in your tank do the spots come and go? Are there times that you seem to see an increase? Have they gotten worse with time?

OK, so here's the history ....

Bought a 90 gallon tank off craigslist in March 2013 with a whole bunch of questionable fish choices. No signs of ich.

I obsessively QT all fish.

Upgraded from 90 to 265 in October 2013 - saw ich on the hippo tang (nothing else).

Had an Achilles Tang in QT at the time.

Saw some mild signs of ich on a few other fish (mainly on the lateral fins).

Decided ultimately to move the Achilles (clear of ich) into the DT. Within a week it showed spots.

However, it has never been more than a few, and none of the other fish show symptoms anymore. Gradually the symptoms on the AT have declined as well.

All my fish are good eaters, are growing, and show all signs of being happy and healthy.

My personal theory is thus: ich comes in various strains and I believe mine is on the milder end. Further, I have read that a single ich strain will eventually burn itself out in the absence of reinforcements. I do run a UV on my tank, and while it is foolish to believe the device will eradicate ich, I do think it is reasonable to assume it reduces parasite pressure somewhat.

[seamonster124]

All my fish are good eaters, are growing, and show all signs of being happy and healthy.



.


Pretty sure that is why ich is dormant in ur tank. They r happy and fat; ich has no chance

[KJoFan]

I know it exists in my system as well. I added new fish over a period of time (no QT) recently, one being a yellow eye kole tang. He started showing symptoms of ich first. Shortly thereafter they started dropping like flies. I lost all "new" additions one by one. Ich ended up mowing down 5 anthias, a clownfish, a mandarin dragonet, a kole tang and a potter's angel. The only fish that survived were my original 4 fish I've had for 3+ yrs, including a scopas tang. Though the scopas did come down with ich as well, and looked pretty rough for a day or two but came out of it on it's own and I've seen no signs since.

It does make one nervous to add any new fish again though. However, I'm sure I will do just that at some point.

[ThRoewer]

...
My personal theory is thus: ich comes in various strains and I believe mine is on the milder end. Further, I have read that a single ich strain will eventually burn itself out in the absence of reinforcements. I do run a UV on my tank, and while it is foolish to believe the device will eradicate ich, I do think it is reasonable to assume it reduces parasite pressure somewhat.

My theory rather is that if the fish's immune system is strong enough it can block the parasites from feeding too much and doing too much damage. As a result of that the resulting tomonts will be smaller and the ich strain(s) in the tank get weaker. At some point, if all fish have sufficient immunity or resistance the ich strains may just fade away.
Though, if you keep just one weak fish (usually the tangs) in the tank, ich can maintain a low level presence indefinitely.

This is one of the reasons why I stay clear of all tangs.

[ca1ore]

Pretty sure that is why ich is dormant in ur tank. They r happy and fat; ich has no chance

Oh I completely agree. Just like a bacterial infection, I'd imagine there's an 'opportunistic' element to an ich outbreak. But it's not just that, because I've had otherwise healthy fish get major infections in the past. Trying to figure out why then but not now is probably an exercise in futility because there are so many different factors. But my pet theory is as good an explanation as I can come up with ...... so I'm sticking with it :). Well, at least until a better one comes along.

[malacoda]

I'm debating if I let my new tank run fallow for a while and then put the fish through TTM before adding them to the tank
The catch is that the current tanks are the sump and the refugium for the new tank so it isn't really a straight forward thing.

The biggest issue is the fallow period, or rather how long it would need to be making the whole thing worth the effort.
I know that the usual mantra here is 72 days. Though the study this is based on is rather sketchy and quite limited in its scope.....

Based on all this and the fact that the fish are doing fine as of now I wonder if it makes even sense to make the effort to eradicate ich from the system and put all fish at risk by through the stress of TTM or other clean-up methods.
I'm still debating it, but doing it would also mean that everyn new has to go through a stringent clean-up process which is quite an effort.


Thanks for this! I'm struggling with a similar debate right now -- and your insights/experiences have provided me with some more food for thought...

Only difference is that I'm debating the whole fallow/TTM combo approach for my very first tank -- a 25g that will only have 3 or 4 fish (a goby, blenny, pink-streaked wrasse, and a yellowstriped cardinal).

I'm going to start the tank with live rock from TBS and was pretty dead-set in my plans to keep it fallow (ghost feeding) for 75 days, then each fish through TTM then QT before it's added in order to make sure the tank is ich-free right from the start.

But then 2 things dawned on my earlier today (and sparked the 'fallow experiences' search that lead me to this thread...


My whole goal is to have a low-stress 'dirty' tank - e.g. minor hitchhikers, a bit of macro, not qute 100% crystal clear water will all be welcome in the DT
The equipment, space, and time burden will be immense (especially for a 25g with just 4 fish) -- even after keeping the DT fallow and doing TTM for each 4 fish (1 by 1 as they're added), ANYTIME even a snail, shrimp, or coral frag is added throughout the years ahead, every single one will have to go through TTM to ensure it is not a 'carrier'


Really has me debating, if the whole process would really be worth it -- especially if the fish can be just as fat, happy, and healthy if they are kept in a comfortable, low-stress environment after going through a simple, standard, low-stress, non-medication-unless-needed (except perhaps prazipro), 4-6 week QT.

If only that fortune teller down the road would've sold me her crystal ball...

[ThRoewer]

If you are just starting I would recommend to keep ich out off the tank with going fallow (ghost feeding isn't required) and then all fish through TTM. Especially if you only plan for 4 fish and no corals or shrimp. Inverts like snails and hermits need to be added before the fallow period starts.

It's the corals that made me wonder if it's worth the trouble but after a bit of research I think I found a way to get my new tank ich free without separating the tanks.
All I need to do is preventing tomonts to enter the new tank and encyst there, which is pretty easy since they are "big" and only active for a short time (less than 8h).
So all I need is to do is pump the water entering the new tan through a 50 micron filter. For added security I will also let the pump only run during the light period.

This way I can keep the tanks connected and move all corals and inverts to the new tank while the fish stay for the fallow period where they are. I only need to break the connection when I start treating the fish.

This may not be the 100% method some prefer but it's better than nothing and I feel it is safe enough. Even if one straggler survives its chances for long term survival are low as single strain ich has shown to die out within a year.

[Spar]

The equipment, space, and time burden will be immense (especially for a 25g with just 4 fish) -- even after keeping the DT fallow and doing TTM for each 4 fish (1 by 1 as they're added), ANYTIME even a snail, shrimp, or coral frag is added throughout the years ahead, every single one will have to go through TTM to ensure it is not a 'carrier'




.


Just a reminder that TTM only works on fish, not inverts etc. Each of these would have to go through fallow instead.

I have followed all if this for 5 years and although i would rather not do this, it really hasn't been that bad. I just keep a separate fully running tank.

[laga77]

As I have stated in other threads. When you feed marine fish foods they were never intended to eat, like any terrestrial plant, or any highly processed food, their health will suffer. I do not believe that a natural diet is a miracle cure, but it is the best preventive measure that can be taken for the health of the fish. Along with good water conditions. Before you buy the can of pellets that have been sitting a shelf for the past year. Read the list of ingredients. Marine fish should not eat cornstarch and flour, and alfalfa, which is in a lot of pellet and flake foods. Stick with what they eat in nature and your odds of having healthy fish will increase.

[Bmwm235i]

I had ich and lost 2 fish. I decided to treat them with copper in qt. I let dt sit for 75 days, went 2 rounds of copper in qt. The garlic and Dr. G food I just didn't want the hassle... I didn't want to manage ich I wanted it out. I believe I'm 99.9% ich free.

[Drblakjak55]

Any data about ultraviolet light and prevention of ick outbreaks?

[ThRoewer]

Any data about ultraviolet light and prevention of ick outbreaks?

Yes, it won't work unless you spend a pretty penny on a huge pump and an even more massive UV system. And even that will just keep it in check but not prevent it.

UV is only useful to limit the spread of diseases in multi tank systems like you find at wholesalers or stores.