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CMJones
11/13/2015, 11:33 AM
So, i have a large fully grown flame angel and would like to breed them. I hear they change sex, but 2 males will fight to the death. I have a 150G tank, and just bought a second flame angel... Right now, he's being separated in a 5G tank INSIDE the 150G tank so that they don't kill each other. i'm fairly certain they are both male... Now the problem, will the smaller one change to female and if so, how long? Would I be able to keep it alive like this until it does?

The current setup is i have an acrylic screen mesh wrapped around the top of the 5G tank inside the 150G tank under one of the powerheads so it gets flow into it. I'm not sure how I'll be able to clean waste out of it to get it into the overflow and to the skimmer.

Is this a bad idea, more than likely. However, CAN it work or is it a hopeless endeavor and i should search for a female?

Dkuhlmann
11/13/2015, 01:22 PM
There is a member that's been here many years named OrionN and he has Flame Angel breeders I would suggest that you look him up and send him a PM with a link to this page. He knows his stuff and is usually more than happy to help.

He has several stickies in the Anemone and Clownfish forum.

ThRoewer
11/13/2015, 02:44 PM
I doubt that angelfish can change back after having changed to be male.

I put many angel pairs together. Usually it is best to first introduce the female to the tank and give her a few days to settle in before adding the male.

It also had worked for me to introduce them both at the same time.

Though I never added a female to an established male. In such a case I would probably try to add 2 or 3 females at the same time. That way the male can't easily concentrate his aggression on one.
If going with just one I would use an acclimatization box (like the one you describe) to see how they react towards each other. See if the female demonstrates submission (leaning to the side while taking on an "S"-shape and slight shaking) and how the male reacts to that.
If you feel the get along let her out.

BTW: how tall is your tank? For spawning they need enough height. The next challenge is collecting the eggs, which could be quite a challenge in a regular tank. And raising the larva will be the greatest challenge. You will need a good handle on culturing small planktonic copepods.

CMJones
11/13/2015, 03:34 PM
Thank you for the feedback, i'll have to get a hold of this OrioN and see what he says. I'm hoping it works. I went to check and couldn't find any females.

As for breeding, i am indeed working on planktonic copepods to be able to feed them and try to do this right. I've had some pretty good success with small fry and feeding and got quite a bit of practice in the fresh water side of things with German Blue Rams. So, there may be some of the knowledge from that to apply to here.

ThRoewer
11/13/2015, 04:03 PM
Thank you for the feedback, i'll have to get a hold of this OrioN and see what he says. I'm hoping it works. I went to check and couldn't find any females.

As for breeding, i am indeed working on planktonic copepods to be able to feed them and try to do this right. I've had some pretty good success with small fry and feeding and got quite a bit of practice in the fresh water side of things with German Blue Rams. So, there may be some of the knowledge from that to apply to here.

What makes you believe that you got 2 males?

As for breeding - I never had much luck with freshwater fish, but was pretty successful with several saltwater species. IMO FW and SW breeding are two very different animals.
It is not just the food but also the kind of larva tanks you may need. I build special octagonal tanks for breeding clownfish and was able to archive a 95% yield per hatch.
I got marine bettas to full adult size and spawning themselves.

Currently I'm thinking to build a modified Planktonkreisel to give P. fridmani another shot. 15 years ago I got a few up to 18 mm length before they died. Back then I only had brine shrimp and that's a pretty insufficient food (clowns would eat frozen Cyclops from the 5th day on).

Maybe, before taking on such a difficult species you should collect some experience with easier saltwater species.

CMJones
11/13/2015, 04:42 PM
I have clowns that are almost a year and a half old now. So, i plan to start with those first. They should be nearing age to start, i'm just waiting on them. I'm hoping by the time i get good at those guys the flame angels i'm starting now with will be up to the right level. And i knew that flame angels were hermaphroditic. However, i DID NOT know that once they change sex, they don't change back... which is apparently what's being posted that i've seen. And checking out the differences in sex, i'm fairly certain that the one i just bought is indeed a male. He has 4 solid bars and pointed fins. As well, the second i put them together, they immediately started in on the fighting and wouldn't let up at all.

Louis Z
11/13/2015, 10:54 PM
I have paired up two pairs of flame Angels in QT tanks. Each time the larger had pointed and elongated fins where the smaller had no such extensions and looked rounded. Each time there was some posturing and flaring fins but not fighting. I would not put those two together , if they are both males. If you want one to submit then it would die trying to dominate the other. My problem is the quality of angels coming in. Each time I have had issues . Once with marine velvet several years ago, and the other recent one when one didn't eat and I couldn't tell if it was velvet , or brooklynella that took both. I will try again in another couple of years . I just do not want to go thru the heart ache of watching them die. The LFS stores in my area seem to really be infested with diseases.

OrionN
11/28/2015, 08:41 PM
I would get a female and pair her with your male. Louis is right, male have somewhat of a pointed dorsal and anal fins. Do a search on how to sex male and female Flame angel. I posted picture on that thread that would help you clearly differentia the sex. Female will change to male, but I am not sure that male can change back to female.

I found the thread
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2463437

CMJones
11/28/2015, 08:46 PM
yeah, i am almost positive both are male, however, they are getting along now. I put one in the QT tank and set the QT tank inside the large aquarium. After 2 days, i noticed they weren't attacking the glass anymore and one was submitting to the other by doing that sideways shake. I released the other one at that point and have not had any issues since... Well, other than the ich it came with... Now i've got them all in a 75G QT tank and starting cupramine.

ThRoewer
11/30/2015, 09:50 PM
If you ever plan on breeding with them I would skip on copper or any other long term chemical bath.

Against ich TTM or hyposalinity or both will be well sufficient.

CMJones
11/30/2015, 10:00 PM
well, ****... 3rd time the clowns i've been trying to breed have been through it... 2nd time for one of the angels... 1st for the other... using coppersafe from seachem to keep as easy as possible (i understand the copper tehy use is easy as it goes...) and best i could get... But... needed to do something. Only other option is Mardel "Quick Cure" for ich... I COULD do that.. But i hear coppersafe is much more efficient... Opinions?

Dkuhlmann
12/01/2015, 04:21 AM
You really need to read up on the TTM, it's totally safe and effective.

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2507836

A complete thread to help you understand the ich life cycle

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1990809