Newish Tank, both Clownfish died... please help

[nickbinsb]

I cycled my tank for two months, and saw it producing nitrate so I figured it was ok to put in two small Ocellaris clownfish. My water is/was : 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 1-5 nitrate, 1.024, 76-77 degrees, ph 7.8-8. The tank has a few pieces of coral, a couple of snails and a shrimp that I added a little after the clownfish. Well after adding the clownfish last week they did not eat, and hung out in one spot. I thought that was normal, but yesterday I woke up and the tank was cloudier than it had been, and one fish was hiding under a rock breathing heavy. That fish died shortly thereafter, while the other fish looked normal. Well today the other fish died too, after spasming around the tank for ten minutes. I feel just terrible because I thought I did a good job cycling the tank, had adequate water movement, rock, etc. What did I do wrong? These were captive bred clownfish... Thank you so much.

[Saltine]

How did you acclimate them?

[nickbinsb]

Let unopened bags sit in tank for over ten minutes, then added small amounts tank of water every so often, while removing some bag water, for about a half hour.

[nickbinsb]

Also it is a 20 gallon long.

[chimmike]

why did the water get cloudy?

may want to up the salinity, and double check your ammonia test kit

[gone fishin]

Kind of tough to say with the info given and no pic. Some thoughts are cloudy tank was an algae bloom, if so then you could have got into a low oxygen situation. Maybe an illness.

[stingeragent]

Few things come to mind on a new tank. How did you check the salinity? Refracto or hydrometer? Secondly, what brand is the ammonia kit? I would go check your water again now and see what the levels are. When crazy stuff like this happens, I will typically check it twice at the same time. (just fill up 2 vials instead of 1), just to make sure the reading is coherent and that you didn't mess something up when putting drops in. As to the flow, what are the placement of the powerheads in the tank? can you see the water surface being disturbed by them? Also, a few other things. Did you dump the contents of the bag( water and all) into your tank? If you did, that may not solve anything but never do it again. You always want to net/ scoop the fish out. Lastly, did you measure the salinity of the water in the bag before you started adding tank water to it? This is a crucial step. I run my tank at 1.026. I dont' add fish often over the last 18 months, and the last fish I got , I checked the bag salinity and it was at 1.020. I'm assuming you added the fish directly to the DT. I'd advise setting up even a small QT tank, and then you can better control the salinity level. For my last example, I lowered the salinity to 1.022, and added water to the bag the same as you. You want there to be as little of a jump as possible. Moving a fish from 1.020 to 1.026 within 30 mins to an hour is way too fast. I know in your example your tank is at 1.024 , but unless you tested the bag it came in, there is no way to tell how big of a salinity jump the fish went through. Unless they were on there last leg before you put them in your tank, I would rule out any sort of disease, infection, etc killing the fish within 1-2 days. Post as much as you can about your tank and I'll try to offer additional guidance as best I can. Did you use RO/DI water for the tank initially, etc.

Edit: Additionally, 1-5 nitrate on a newly cycled tank seems unusually low to me. My 125g which was an upgrade for 2 tanks into 1 with live rock established for over a year got up to 60 nitrate within a few weeks.

[nickbinsb]

1) I use a refractometer.
2) I use an API kit. I tested multiple times throughout the cycle, saw nitrate get up to 40 or so, then changed water pretty often to get it back down because I put in an SPS coral.
3) I just checked my water and no real change besides after the water changes.
4) I have a wave maker powerhead and a continuous powerhead that disturb the surface, plus a HOB filter that also disturbs the surface.
5) I did not dump the contents of the bag, I scooped the fish out with a net.
6) It took about a week for the fish to die. They were not eating during the first week, but they were breathing normally.
7) I use distilled water, and I checked the Sparkletts website and they test 0 for copper, and everything else.

The only things I can think of are: I have the fish tank in my room, and sometimes I have my door closed. I have a glass top, but there is still room for air to get in. But PH is stable day/night

I am working on a net top if I decide to try fish again. Perhaps you are right about the salinity change... I did not test the bag water.

[stingeragent]

Wasn't trying to come off being harsh. There is unfortunately 10000 different things that can have affect. I personally would get rid of the glass top. I'm sure there is someone on here that will say it's fine but my understanding is the consenus is not to use them. Screen is really the way to go. It is possible the clownfish could have starved after a week of not eating. I'm not a clownfish biologist, but I'd guess that is possible, but I'd also assume something was stressing them out the caused them not to eat. What type of foods were you feeding? The first clownfish I got was a very picky eater at first. I have an entire shelf in my freezer of different types of frozen fish food, and it would only eat 1 or 2 of them. Somehow, over a year later the same fish will eat anything I drop in the tank. I originally approached my LFS about this, and they suggested cyclopeeze ( no longer available ), which I used with success. Not sure what happened but a month or two later the same fish would eat just about anything.

Edit: It can be depressing when you lose fish, especially starting out, as the dream and hopes of a magnificent salt water tank can be easily crushed when things like this happens. Persevere my friend.

Edit 2: In the future, if you think this is a hobby you want to stick with, I would reccomend getting an ro/di unit. They can be had for 150 or less off bulk reef supply. It seems expensive at first, but if you are dedicated to this hobby, they will pay for them selves in the end.

[nickbinsb]

I also tried several foods. New Life Spectrum, freeze dried brine shrimp, frozen mysis shrimp, and another pellet food I picked up. The fish that died second might have eaten a couple of small pieces of food towards the end, but not enough... I had been phantom feeding my tank before introducing the fish, so I don't know why I would have a bacterial/algae bloom. sigh...

[gone fishin]

your not doing any type of carbon dosing by chance, for example vodka?

[stingeragent]

The tank has been up for 2 months? You were topping off with non saltwater right?

[nickbinsb]

No carbon dosing. Topping off with fresh water.

[gone fishin]

running a fuge with caulpera? change in lighting?

I am trying to figure out the cloudiness.

Did the fish have any marks on them, excess slime, scratching, cloudy eyes?

[seamonster124]

Have you re-tested nitrites?

[nickbinsb]

I do not have a fuge. This is a pretty simple set up. I did not see anything on the fish. Their behavior was very sad and bizarre toward the end. The fish that died first would swim under the live rock and hide himself. He was breathing heavily and pretty lethargic and it took about three hours for him to pass. The second fish lasted another day, seemingly healthy, but she also began to hide herself toward the end. Then she began to spasm violently for several minutes, thrashing around the tank, before she died. Her passing was much more rapid of a change.

I think you are right about the cloudiness... that seems key. Are bacterial blooms normal in tanks that have low nutrients? Do you think a skimmer would prevent this from happening in the future? Thank you all so much for listening and trying to help.

[nickbinsb]

Yes, I retested everything today, and nitrates were nearly undetectable.

[gone fishin]

A skimmer would help with aeration. IME to get a sudden algae bloom you would need excess nutrients, like overdosing vodka. the quick blooms can deplete oxygen surprisingly fast.

In another direction how about cleaners, scented aerosols. I have heard of those plug in air fresheners causing issues.

[nickbinsb]

No chemicals/air fresheners, etc in my room. In fact, only air filters because of my allergies.

[gone fishin]

Well I am about out of thoughts. If it was just the one I would say maybe it was just their time but, both so close I am inclined to think something caused it.

[Shewillbemine]

It looks like you addressed everything and unfortunately these seem like phantom fish deaths. Could be something they already had from the LFS but that still doesn't explain the cloudiness.

CSI time: who else has access to the room for this tank?

[nickbinsb]

haha, no one was in my room. :( :sad1:

[shifty51008]

Im almost wondering if it wasnt something like brook or velvet but if they looked ok with no extra slime or whitish on them it kinda rules that out. However the cloudyness of the tank sounda like a bacteria bloom which could deplete o2 fast as said eariler. Have you checked ammonia levels afterward or after the first one passed?

[nickbinsb]

Yeah, I've been testing regularly, before and after, and got no ammonia reading. Probably the bacteria bloom as you said. Pretty sad about the whole thing because I did not think I was overfeeding/overstocking.

[shifty51008]

I wouldnt blame yourself, things like this can happen to the best of us. Your going slow and doing things right so dont let this stop you. Seems like your doing a good job.

[cheucklate]

Do you know the salinity the LFS uses for fish? I ask because some stores set their fish tanks at 1.020 or even lower to prevent parasites. Could they be dying from acclimation shock? You can try slow dripping even longer using airline tube or put them in a QT matching the LFS salinity and then slowly let it evaporate till the salinity matches DT.

[nickbinsb]

They came from an online order, and unfortunately I did not test the bag water. I tried to acclimate them slowly but not too slow as I've read this can also be detrimental.

[Marchillo]

It seems you are getting some conflicting advice within the thread. From my point of view when getting a fish shipped the best thing is a quick acclimation which you did. The obvious problem which may not answer all of our questions is what they run their salinity at. They could be running at 1.017 and your running at 1.024. Your 30 minute acclimation may have only gotten it up to 1.020.

I got a cleaner shrimp once and I had read a thread of people losing them during acclimation so I wanted salinity to match and keep the acclimation to no more than 30 minutes (after bag opening). I was shocked the bag water was 1.019 versus my tank of 1.024. I added water for 30 minutes and was only up to 1.022. It took a lot more than I thought to get to 1.024.

I would start by calling the online store and asking what they run their salinity at. They should be able to tell you. I wouldn't be surprised if they ran at 1.017 and despite your efforts you may have only raised it to 1.020/1.021.

Doesn't explain the cloudiness. You didn't add any ph buffer did you? That will cloud your tank. Like a ph up product?

[Marchillo]

Also I would get a qt setup. Going forward you can easily match salinity and observe for other issues as well.

[gone fishin]

Like Shifty said try not to get to down. It would seem your doing things right. hopefully it was just some type of perfect storm situation.

I would suggest looking into a QT for your next go around. Good luck

[CStrickland]

I mysteriously lost a couple fish in quarantine a few weeks ago. It sucks.
I think that's one of the things that make experienced reefers different from us noobs. Even when we seem to do everything right these mysterious deaths happen sometimes.

The good thing about a qt is they won't take out your whole tank with them when they go.

I replaced the fish I lost, and even though I feel like I did everything just the same, the replacements were just fine and are happy in my tank today. Do be afraid to brush yourself off and try again <3

[stingeragent]

Although I've been tempted several times, this is a reason I only purchase live stock in person. I like to make sure the fish is active, swimming around, and I can visibly looks for signs of disease before purchase. Based on what you've said there is honestly no way to truly know what happened. As others have mentioned don't give up. On your next purchase, make sure to double check the bag salinity. That will at the very least eliminate salinity shock as being a possibility.

[e048]

Are your shrimp and snails fine? If so then it's probably not your water....

Keep the tank fish less for about 3 months then try again but qt the new fish before dumping them into your tank

[nickbinsb]

Good point. The shrimp and snails are fine.

[JBeursken]

I had that same problem with my 2 clowns, acting the same way...I did a water change and they bounced right back...did a water change again the following week and they seem to be happy go lucky..... they are pigs when it comes to Breakfast though...

[e048]

May have been a bad batch see if anyone near you has clowns for sale and make sure they are eating and happy qt any fish you get that will help