PDA

View Full Version : nitrate and PO are non detectable, low color on SPS


mathman7728
11/26/2015, 10:50 AM
hi,

i've read the secret to colorful corals thread and my take is that we do NOT want zero levels of nitrate and PO, but that is exactly what i have in my 180gal. i have lots of LR, fish, LPS and a few SPS..i does calk and alk and use talk in the ATO. i feed at least 2x most of the time 3x/day of frozen food but no measurable levels of nitrate and PO. so how do i elevate nitrate and PO...i would like to get very colorful SPS is possible.

thank you!!

Bogue Chitto
11/26/2015, 10:54 AM
Ha! most of us are trying to get rid of it. I know some is good but it is a chore for most people to keep it low. Feed a little more flake food and you will see it rise. But remember that as nitrates and phosphates rise so does the algae problem...

bertoni
11/26/2015, 10:49 PM
Coral coloration is a fairly complicated topic. Adding more nutrients might encourage more color, or it might turn the colors brown. If you want to try to add more nutrients, sodium nitrate might be worth trying. A bit more food might work, too.

tmz
11/27/2015, 11:40 AM
That thread has some good information and some not so good.

Personally, my corals do best with PO4 in the 0.02ppm to 0.04ppm range with nitrate ranging form undetectable to 1ppm. Nuisance algae is very minimal at these levels. Extra food will provide extra nitrogen and phosphate. If you are using a PO4 remover, like GFO. lanthanum chloride ,etc; I'd stop if PO4 is undetectable.

mathman7728
11/28/2015, 04:44 PM
not using any PO removers, etc.

CStrickland
11/28/2015, 04:55 PM
I agree it's a balance.
I had a little freak out and reaquascaped the other day, my nitrates shot up to 30 and a couple corals are quiet brown like bertoni said. Whatever you do take it slow so that if you overshoot it will be easier to fix.

Also remember that zero is not always zero. I used to get zero on the API phos test all the time but that's cause it doesn't go very low at all. When I got a hanna checker it turned out I was closer to .007 which is more than I wanted to have and def not zero. Same with nitrate tests, some brands only read to like 5ppm but there's a diff between 4ppm and zero.

Lights play a big part in how coral look too. They are only as colorful as your eye perceives them to be and it's remarkable how much that can vary between bulbs.

Arthur1
11/30/2015, 04:59 PM
I have read a lot on coral pigmentation in the past and enjoy it thoroughly but I would not ever give much advice about it lol. I always aim for the "zero" mark but do I believe its being reached where its being pursued? No, even if the test kits say so, as there is always some specie of green algae present somewhere. But tmz has posted his levels quite often and imo, it's a good level to reach. To answer your question, bertoni has.

CStrickland
11/30/2015, 06:17 PM
Oops, that's a typo. My phos was .07 silly extra zero

Buzz1329
11/30/2015, 11:46 PM
hi,

i've read the secret to colorful corals thread and my take is that we do NOT want zero levels of nitrate and PO, but that is exactly what i have in my 180gal. i have lots of LR, fish, LPS and a few SPS..i does calk and alk and use talk in the ATO. i feed at least 2x most of the time 3x/day of frozen food but no measurable levels of nitrate and PO. so how do i elevate nitrate and PO...i would like to get very colorful SPS is possible.

thank you!!

What test kits are you using for N03 and P04? Some kits IME (like Salifert and Red Sea) have read 0 every time I've use them. As I just said in another thread, for low range N03 readings, I like NYOS kit which IME clearly indicated difference between 0 and 1 ppm. For PO4, I like Hach and am finally coming around to ULR Hanna checker, which seems to give more precise results for very low range PO4.

Mike

tmz
12/01/2015, 11:42 AM
Phosphate and nitrogen deficiencies do occur in some aquariums. The "ultra low nutrient systems" aim for zeros in nitrate and PO4 but rely on additives to put back some elements. Living things need both ( phosphate for ATP, protein phosphorylation .phospholipids, dna ,etc; for example).

As for tests, FWIW, I use the hanah 713 for PO4 and the Salifert test for NO3.

Some algae is oligotrophic and does just fine with very low PO4 ;some can access organic phosphate.( rhodophyta, and bryopsis come to mind as common examples) Limiting oligotrophic types via PO4 to zero may result in limiting out the corals .

mathman7728
12/01/2015, 02:27 PM
could "too much" live rock lead to low levels of NO3 and PO4?

tmz
12/02/2015, 09:50 AM
I don't see how it could. It just provides more surface for the bacteria; their growth is driven by available nutrients when adequate space for them to grow is available.

R_Mc
02/16/2016, 08:09 AM
A large amount of live rock could definitely be taking NO3 to 0. This is especially true if you have large pieces of highly porous rock. NO3 can be converted to nitrogen gas by anoxic bacteria that lives in the low oxygen zones inside our rocks. The more rock, the more anoxic bacteria, the more NO3 conversion.

CStrickland
02/16/2016, 09:44 AM
I'm dubious that nitrate levels are all that correlated to live rock amount. If they were you would see a much stronger connection between amount of rock and nitrate levels. The "minimalist" tanks would tend to have higher levels than tanks that are chock full of rock or use supplemental rock in the sump. That doesn't seem to be the case. By way of example, I have 2/3# of rock per gallon and a good portion of it is really dense diy rock that I made badly. I don't have high nitrate troubles like some folks with lots of porous rock, even with a heavy feeding schedule.

Whether my lack of rock prevents detritus accumulation, my particular scape is conducive to bacteria somehow, or my other export methods are taking up the slack, or for some other reason, it would seem there's more to it than just real estate for the bacteria to colonize. Anyway, trying to affect the nitrate level by removing bio filtration seems like a risky proposition.

tmz
02/16/2016, 10:36 AM
NO3 is not directly converted to nitrogen gas by anoxic bacteria. Anoxic zones are void of free oxygen and void of nitrate.When there is organic carbon available in anoxic areas sulfate reducing bacteria use SO4 for oxygen.

Most denitrifying bacteria are facultative ( they take free oxygen preferentialy;when it's scarce they take some from nitrate(anaerobic activity) reducing it from NO3 to N. Some of the N is assimilated; some forms N2 gas. Anaerobic nitrate reduction occurs even in shallow substrate or even in thin bacterial mulm as well as in sand beds or rock pores.

Ammonia oxidizing bacteria and other bacteria including heterotrophs et alia also use surface area for colonization.

I agree reducing available surface area to regulate nitrogen levels in a living aquarium is not a useful way to achieve a balanced nitrogen level ,though the absence of surface area (removing rock and substrate )will disrupt much of the biofiltration inhcluding the ammonia oxidizers as one example.
FWIW, I use a lot of extra live rock in cryptic refugia and a reasonable amount in my tanks.( in total maybe double what folks use on average) Nitrate build up will still occur when an organic carbon dose is missed .

fishchef
02/16/2016, 12:02 PM
How are you testing for PO4?