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kizanne
12/02/2015, 10:21 AM
Is there any reason why a company selling imported seahorses would refuse to give you a copy of their CITES paperwork?

rayjay
12/02/2015, 09:15 PM
Not any good reason I know of to at least let you see the paperwork.

Jeff4777
12/03/2015, 03:57 PM
Maybe they don't want to give you a copy of it. Not knowing the company makes it hard to speculate on illegal activities.

kizanne
12/04/2015, 05:54 AM
Well it is Bluezoo.

But they are fairly big so I would assume they probably aren't doing anything illegal. I just don't understand what would be the reason for not letting people see it or get a copy of it.

redhorse
12/05/2015, 09:35 AM
I am not sure and maybe someone could explain.
If someone purchases something listed in the CITES is it not protocol for the company selling to provide legal paperwork for the sale?

Fish Biscuit
12/05/2015, 01:13 PM
I am a customs broker & have handled imports of live fish & coral.

First of all to even have a copy of the Cites import permit, you have to be the importer of record. It is possible that Blue Zoo does not import their own livestock & buys from a wholesaler. Most likely I would think this is the case as generally a wholesaler does not sell to the public.

Secondly, no wholesaler is going to show the complete Cites permit to any of their clients as their supplier details are on the documents.

Fish Biscuit
12/05/2015, 01:21 PM
double post

Spslvr
12/05/2015, 05:33 PM
Im not sure why you even want to see it.... I wouldnt show you either...

kizanne
12/05/2015, 06:41 PM
Well as a person who cares about the status of the seahorse. I'd like to know how my fish were collected/raised. But not being a distributor I wasn't aware how it was a closely guarded secret.

That's kinda why I asked the question.

redhorse
12/05/2015, 10:38 PM
That was a great question and does leave the public open to fraud. If there is noting to hide then there is nothing to hide. :-)
So with all this being said, the people we (the pubic) purchase from probably doesn't even have the info themselves.. Thanks for clearing things up guys....
I personally would never purchase outside of the States unless they are H. Breviceps :-)

kizanne
12/06/2015, 12:34 AM
Well I wanted barbouri and imported from Australia/ tank raised was the best I could do

DanU
12/11/2015, 06:55 AM
Interesting thread.

I don't know of anyone in this business or any other business who would show their purchase paperwork to a customer. It gives out too much proprietary information.

The term "tank raised" is often used for captive bred on paperwork.

Dan

rayjay
12/11/2015, 08:14 AM
Dan, I only have one experience with importing seahorses and having Cites paperwork, but the Cites paperwork was separate from the purchase paperwork.
There wasn't anything that I would consider to be proprietary information on the Cites.
I agree that purchase paperwork not be shown to buyers, but I didn't see any need for NOT showing Cites when possible.

DanU
12/12/2015, 07:26 AM
It is still going to show where they got them from which many vendors don't want to give out their sources for competitive reasons. As you know, I already tell folks what I have, whether we bred or not and where they originate from. Still, to chase down the paperwork and send it to someone is a PIA. Probably more so for larger vendors but even a little guy like me, I already work in excess of 10 hrs a day, 7 days a week. I would not be willing to chase down my bookkeeper for something that is non customary as I already get way too many out of the norm requests from seahorse customers. Even researchers and public aquaria don't ask for this when making purchases.

Dan

rayjay
12/12/2015, 09:23 PM
Thanks again for a dealer perspective on this.

ThRoewer
12/14/2015, 01:56 PM
If I remember right, back in Germany in the 90s dealers were required to pass on copies of the CITES certificates to the end customers. The customers needed those to prove their animals were legally obtained and not smuggled.

I would assume the same applies here in the US if you want to breed a CITES controlled species and sell the offspring - somehow you need to be able to show that your broodstock was optained legally.
As for the wholesaler not wanting to show where they got them from - well, it's in general not hard to find that out as the people in the trade all know each other. Also those suppliers hardly ever sell to end users anyway.

rayjay
12/14/2015, 02:12 PM
Well I'm old now and my memory isn't too good, but I started seahorses in 03 and I though Cites for seahorses came in shorty after that. Maybe it applied but wasn't enforced?

DanU
12/14/2015, 07:56 PM
Seahorses were added to CITES Appendix II in 2005.

The purpose of CITES is to prevent over exploitation of either endangered or potentially endangered species during international trade. The only time a CITES permit is needed for seahorses is when importing or exporting. Once imported, seahorses can be sold anywhere in the US without the need for permits. The dealer can then sell to another dealer or direct to a hobbyist as long as it is in the US. Florida LFS are sometimes inspected by Florida F&W but they don't need the CITES permit, only a receipt to show where they were purchased from.

As for importing, if you have an import/export permit from fish and wildlife, getting a CITES permit for import is easy. Pay the permit fee and you are basically done. It is the exporting country's responsibility to ensure that the seahorses are not being over exploited.

Exporting seahorses is a whole different story, at least in the US. Getting a permit for Wild Caught seahorses is very easy. Getting permits for Captive Bred is an entirely different matter as Fish & Wildlife put the dealer through the wringer to prove that they are Captive Bred, where the original brood stock came from, how they supplement their brood stock, what their future plans are on with supplementing brood stock, how long they have been breeding, where the breeding facility is located, what type of inspections are done and the list goes on. This is done for each export. I have not exported because of the hassles and expense. I have sold to those who have exported and it took many months to get permits in place. As the breeder, had to make multiple replies to F & W on all of these questions and more. Doesn't do much to protect species when Captive Bred are difficult to export and Wild Caught are easy.

Entirely different in other countries. In most cases an order can be placed and shipped the same week. One of the many disadvantages US breeders are faced with when it comes to competing globally with Captive Bred seahorses.

Dan

Jeff4777
12/18/2015, 07:08 AM
Judging by how aggressive they wrote their "policies"....

https://bluezooaquatics.com/guarantee.asp

No wonder they don't want to show you anything.

ThRoewer
12/18/2015, 03:57 PM
Judging by how aggressive they wrote their "policies"....

https://bluezooaquatics.com/guarantee.asp

No wonder they don't want to show you anything.

It is written aggressively, but they don't handle it always that way, at least that was my experience.

Though they may asses if someone knows what (s)he is doing or if the customer is a bloody beginner who is likely to kill fish out of inexperience.