This is longish. Problems with Calcium, alk, diatoms and cyano.

[justthewife]

I apoligize if I am in the wrong forum but here is my question: Where do we go from here. Our 3 year old tank is a 90 gallon tank with live rock, sand, mixed hard and soft corals (mostly hard) and fish and inverts. We have almost always had an unresolved diatom issue from the first 3 months of the tanks set up and it is still having it. We run quality GFO, quality Carbon, use RO/DI water, have a great skimmer, and use a gyre 150 for flow, and use two part dosing from BRS. We use a good quality salt and do a 10-20% water change every Saturday. Our calcium has been on the lower side, around 350. Our Magnesium is about right but I can't remember what is at the moment but it is where it is supposed to be according to the charts, Alk is 8.8, our nitrates were 5 but are now reading 0 and phosphates are always 0 with the hanna checker. Temperature is constant in the correct range. We have LED lights that run on the coral enhancing program but at a reduced intensity like maybe 40 % (I can't remember what my husband said it was but it was too high before and was bleaching some corals so he reduced the intensity of the lights within the program). We have been getting Cyano in the main tank since this past April. Since we reduced the lights, it got better for a time but now it is coming back. We recently added macro algae in the sump (it was called a refugium starter kit at Live Aquaria). I got a maxspect macro algae grow light for my husband last month and it is 6400K bulb in the sump (the sump has three compartments and the middle compartment is the refugium part. It is a 40 gallon sump). For some reason we are having difficulty keeping the calcium at a higher level even though we use a calculator to determine the dosing, the alkalinity sometimes fluctuates from 7.2 - 9. We are having issues with Cyano. We are now not too sure about the health of the macro algae and it is starting to get Cyano on it after only a few weeks. We are also getting some hair algae. My husband is getting frustrated now and is threatening to leave the hobby because of the chemistry issues. We spend a lot of time caring for this tank but we can't seem to get the chemistry right anymore. The corals are all thriving and so are the other inhabitants although I feel that the fish and inverts look somewhat sluggish at time, and even in the very high flow areas of the tank we are seeing cyano (it doesn't seem to mind the flow at all). What do we need to be doing that we are not doing now to keep the calcium up, to keep the alk stable, and to get rid of the cyano, hair algae and keep the macro algae from dying off? We cannot figure out what is wrong. Any suggestions? We recently got a sea hare to get rid of the hair algae but he is more interested in the red macro algae that we buy instead of the hair algae. When the tank was younger we didn't have this many problems with the chemistry.

[bertoni]

I would use some calcium chloride to raise the calcium level to 380 ppm or so, to give some leeway for testing noise, but that won't solve your cyanobacteria problem. Are you using a two-part product to maintain calcium and alkalinity?

How many pounds of live rock are in the system, and what are the specifics of the feeding regime? How often is the GFO changed?

[dweber618]

When was the last time your RO/DI filters were changed? Do you have a TDS meter to test and see if your water quality has low enough TDS?

Just a thought.

[justthewife]

We just took a bit of the stuff on the macro algae and looked at it under the microscope. It may very well be dinoflagellates instead of cyano :hmm3::headwalls: Could this have come in on the macro algae?

[justthewife]

We feed once daily with frozen brine shrimp and sometimes add reef chili and some crab pellets.

GFO is changed every two weeks.

We are using a two part dosing.

I don't know how many lbs of rocks are in there. A good amount but not way too many.

Checked TDS. Have a meter, change filters regularly.

[Dan_P]

The nuisance algae and cyanobacteria growth means conditions are favorable for these organisms, most likely they are being fed. The growth of cyanobacteria on the macro algae is a good indication that the macro algae are not thriving and might be dying or dead. Macro algae are not weeds. They need the right amount of light, good water movement and nutrients to thrive. Anything less and they become a nutrient supply house for cyanobacteria.

Cyanobacteria grow where they can obtain nutrients and light. They can grow in flowing water but only up to the point where water movement begins to locally dilute nutrients. At this point the organism begins to recede. The bulk water probably never supplies nutrients that stimulate cyanobacteria. Rather local accumulation of organic matter, e.g., food, feces, macro alga, dead animals, gives rise to areas of high nutrient levels. Natural chemistry in and on rocks and sand beds also contribute nutrients to stimulate cyanobacteria if water flow is not vigorous enough to keep local nutrient levels diluted near these surfaces. The amount of nutrients being produced in and on rocks is likely to be very low when diluted across the entire system but will be plentiful locally if not diluted quickly with water movement. Unless you are measuring water flow, it can disappear on you unnoticed. Pumps can peter out, pipes and hoses can become clogged, increased coral size can disrupt water flow patterns.

It sounds like your maintenance schedule has not suffered over the years, but take stock and look for routines that might have changed or equipment that might need better upkeep, e,g., an RO/DI unit.

Understanding the fluctuating chemistry will require a bit more information. Ideally, you would have a graph of alkalinity and calcium levels over time, and that would indicate how quickly levels change, whether the troubles are normal variance, or whether the issue came on slowly or suddenly. The numbers are close so don't throw in the towel now.

As for the happiness of your tank inhabitants, that might just be psychological.

[bertoni]

Dinoflagellates can be difficult. I'd try reducing or eliminating the feeding for a bit. If the problem is cyanobacteria, that might help. If so, it'd be a good pointer. For the long haul, more live rock or a permanent reduction in the amount of food going into the tank might be useful, as might carbon dosing.

[Quiet_Ivy]

We just took a bit of the stuff on the macro algae and looked at it under the microscope. It may very well be dinoflagellates instead of cyano :hmm3::headwalls: Could this have come in on the macro algae?

Ow, sorry to hear that. I read your post and kept going 'uh oh.. uh oh..yeah, dinos'. Do you have pictures from the microscope? (I'm collecting dino threads) A couple of posts up in this forum is a very long comprehensive thread on fighting dinos. They can come in on pretty much anything and we don't know why they go out of control in some people's tanks so don't blame yourself.

Your calcium and alk problems are due to the dinos. You can go two ways from here, either get extremely aggressive with nutrient control, or let N and P creep up until you're getting green algae. Either way, I highly recommend buying a lot of live copepods for your fuge and DT. They are the only thing that eats dinos. If you have a doser it's worth trying kalkwasser in your top off water; higher pH occasionally works and may keep your calcium/alk more stable.

Let us know how you want to proceed and we'll come up with a plan of attack
ivy

[bertoni]

I have never heard any way for dinoflagellates to cause alkalinity and calcium problems. Copepods of some sort might eat dinoflagellates, but that's hard to predict.

[justthewife]

Well, the only thing is, we have been having calcium and alkalinity problems since last April with no signs of dino's. We checked for them under the microscope back then and only cyano showed up with diatoms. The dino's (if they are truly dino's) are new and started since we added the macro algae which is now dying and my husband is removing it from the refugium part of the sump as I type. The green Chaeto is still really good. It is the red that is dying.

My husband is still enjoying the post saying " As for the happiness of your tank inhabitants, that might just be psychological." :wildone::crazy1: It is the one part of this post he keeps bringing up to me daily, :facepalm: :lolspin:

I cannot get a picture of the assumed dino's. They are brownish/blackish spotted looking round ones with a slight dip on the top of the sphere. With the luck we have been having, they are probably the most toxic but I am afraid to look. I have looked at several species but don't really have the expertise to correctly identify them using internet images.

The TDS reads 4 before it goes into the last filter on the RO/DI unit and it reads zero at the last filter. How often are the filters supposed to be changed? I know my husband keeps on top of it but if it is supposed to be changed like once a week it aint gonna happen.

The problem with the Calcium and the Alkalinity started last April after we got back from vacation. We had my son taking care of the tank (feeding fish and cleaning the skimmer cup and filling the auto top off reserve bucket while we were gone and he didn't report any problems with the tank but the corals did not look well when we got back so who knows. We will never know. All of the problems in the tank seem to be around that same time. The Calcium dropped, the magnesium dropped as well as alkalinity at that time. The salinity was normal. After that we have not been able to get the calcium up to what it used to be. The nitrates were 2 then and no phosphates showing on the test (which in my experience phosphates 0 reading doesn't mean much). We added the three part dosing at this time. The magnesium and alk corrected itself but not the calcium. The calcium stayed on the lower side. It used to be 435 and steady in the tank until that time. We tried changing to a premium salt at this time to see if that would help. Not much difference. We removed some corals that had gotten huge and were calcium hogs and some of the live rocks to encourage more flow. We turned the Gyre up a notch to 3 for circulation increase and had a nano pump in there as well but then it broke so we took that out. No change in the calcium. We would get it to 380 and the next day it would be 315. We have been testing like crazy these past months. We added trochus snails, nesarius snails and more crabs (we have around 25 inverts in all that I can see) but my Hawk fish likes to snack on the weaker crabs so who knows. We have had cyano growing in the tank on the sand and on some of the rocks that the zoa's are on and some areas around the ricordea. We did change the GFO we were using and the nitrates that had spiked to 5 went down to zero. We tried the Kalk but our dosing unit kept getting clogged and then the auto top off failed a couple of times so we stopped that until we can get more reliable equipment.

Probably the most significant thing we did before April was to swap out crushed coral for a 2 inch live sand. It took like 3-4 months and we did 1/4 sections at a time. So we were thinking this may have been the culprit that started everything. The sand looks to be clumping (becoming hard) a bit in some areas but not too bad and the majority is still good consistency.

About a month ago, we started getting green hair algae on some of the rocks and one hermit crab and some green algae that the fish and snails love on the glass. Before the macro algae, we really were not seeing much on the glass. There are tiny thread like things growing on the sand bed that the sea hare doesn't seem to be too interested in but will eat it if he has to. (psychological again?) He seems to be hanging around only one side of the tank. We have been cleaning up the cyano we find and have also had to use Chemi clean on it about a month ago but now it is coming back because obviously there is an issue with something in the tank we are missing.

[justthewife]

If it is alexandrium catenella do we have to end the tank? Honestly, I can't find a picture of it that looks exactly like what I have. The organism didn't seem to link up to form a chain but they did seem to group together.

[justthewife]

New update. My husband said the parameters holding steady for the last week at Calcium 415, Alk 8.9, magnesium 1320, and ph 8.4. He said the difference may be that he added the dosing manually directly to the DT. So our fingers are crossed on that.

As for the other issues. :headwally:

[Boom]

Any updates?check this thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2544894&highlight=green+cyano

[justthewife]

The only update is that we removed the macro algae with the whatever it was on it and only kept the healthy looking algae. It has not gotten anymore of that stuff on it since, so not sure what that was now.

We are planning on purchasing a UV sterilizer after the holidays to see if that helps with things.

Husband still making comments about the tank problems becoming a hobby killer :sad2: He loves that tank too so to hear him say that is distressing.

[justthewife]

Now I am no longer sure it was dino's in the tank. It may just have been cyano/diatoms. The stuff that I thought was dino's in the sump on the algae is no longer there and after we removed the offending stuff that was there, it has not come back. There is still quite a bit of brownish stuff on the sand in the DT but we recently increased the flow of the gyre to the number 5 setting. We had it on 3. This seems to have helped a little but some of the inhabitants are not happy, mainly the ric's and my yellow figi. The fish seem to love the extra flow. We have yet to order the uv sterilizer. We also have been trying the vacuuming into the filter sock and pouring the water back in the tank through another filter sock so as to not add any fresh nutrients for a bit. The chemistry of all parameters seems a lot better and holding steady and has balanced out. The one thing we stopped using is Reef Chili for feeding and we have been rinsing all other food. So things are looking up. My husband is thinking part of the problem was the switching from the crushed coral to the sand and even though we did that very very slowly, it still affected the tank. Now the good bacteria in the sand is probably getting back to a more normal level. We also added pods but I have not seen them at all.

[bertoni]

Well, that sounds like some progress, at least. The copepods or amphipods that you added likely only come out at night. Fish will eat them if they can catch them.

[justthewife]

Can you see what is on the sand? Any ideas? I can tell we have some cyano but what is the other stuff. It appears greenish in the picture but looks rust color in the tank.

[justthewife]

here is another picture

[bertoni]

It's hard to tell much from pictures. I'd guess dinoflagellates or cyanobacteria, maybe with some diatoms in the mix.

[justthewife]

Do you think its all of them????

[bertoni]

Could be. I wouldn't be surprised.

[jonwright]

Boy. I coulda written this about my tank. Almost exactly.

What are your current no4 and po3 levels?

[jonwright]

I have never heard any way for dinoflagellates to cause alkalinity and calcium problems. Copepods of some sort might eat dinoflagellates, but that's hard to predict.

Depending upon which species it is they can consume carbonate - so I'd think there could absolutely be a link with increased carbonate consumption and Dino's. Am I misreading Randy's article?

As I understand it Randy also wrote that there isn't a complete list of which Dino's consume carbonate. And we all know how fun it is to properly identify them in hobby tanks to begin with.

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On the other hand, three marine bloom-forming (red tide) dinoflagellates, Prorocentrum minimum, Heterocapsa triquetra and Ceratium lineatum,6 have been shown to take up bicarbonate directly, with bicarbonate accounting for approximately 80% of the carbon dioxide they use in photosynthesis. It is believed that these dinoflagellates are not carbon limited in photosynthesis due to their efficient direct bicarbonate uptake mechanisms, so they may not be overly stressed (by this mechanism) by raising the pH to levels achievable in a reef aquarium.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-11/rhf/index.php

[bertoni]

They will take up bicarbonate and carbonate for photosynthesis, but they release the alkalinity back into the water as OH^-. They consume only the carbon.

[droog]

...Macro algae are not weeds. They need the right amount of light, good water movement and nutrients to thrive. Anything less and they become a nutrient supply house for cyanobacteria.


Thanks for your post Dan - this was a lightbulb moment for me.

My tank has never really had a diatom problem (they came and went during the cycle, nothing since).

However, that just changed in the last month or so. I was beginning to think this was a new problem - but now I think its a symptom of something good happening!

While I have not had a problem with diatoms, I have had a problem with lobophora variegata macro algae, which thrives in good water conditions. In the last few months, my nutrient control has been really good and this algae is finally starting to die off. I think its the death of lobophora that is fuelling the diatoms.

Net-net I'll keep up with the nutrient control and try manual export where/when possible.

-droog

[justthewife]

Here is what it looks like under the microscope. Anyone have any idea as to what this is?

[justthewife]

Another picture

[Quiet_Ivy]

Another picture

Hi JTW, I was hoping your infestation cleared up when we didn't hear from you. Unfortunately I think the round things in your pic are dinos rather than diatoms. The irregular, clear envelope with the notch at one end suggests Peridinium but I wouldn't bet much money on it. It's definitely not Ostreopsis though, which is good news. It could be Alexandrium, but they usually have 2 distinct notches and aren't quite as round. As always trying to identify anything in a reef tank is a guessing game.

Pic of Peridinium: https://www.ohio.edu/plantbio/vislab/algaeimage/pages/Peridinium.html

What to do.. what're your P and N like?

I have no idea what the tubular guys are but I'll keep looking.

@bertoni Hum, I am misreading RHF's article also. I do have odd alkalinity issues when dinos are bad, though.

hth
ivy

[justthewife]

Phosphates and Nitrates both are 0. Nitrates were higher a few weeks ago but are now reading 0 consistently.

What are the thoughts on hydrogen peroxide? We recently (in the last two days)hooked up a UV sterilizer.

[justthewife]

The one thing I just don't understand is that this same stuff seems to be on the glass as well as the substrate and when I was just scraping it off the glass, the fish were eating it like crazy. The snails have been consistently on the glass as well eating whatever is on there. It may very well be something different but it sure looks the same. I also noted that there is no ill effects of this stuff on any of the inhabitants in the tank other than it looks horrible.

[bertoni]

I don't know whether fish will eat dinoflagellates like that or not. Many species tend not to be very picky about things floating in the water.

[justthewife]

I think we are in a sort of denial period about this whole thing. :headwalls: