Lanthanum Chloride Safety

[jason2459]

Lanthanum Chloride frankly scares me to use without some very good means of filtering out the precipitation that is formed. I've used Phosfree in the past (many years ago now I guess) as a LaCl3 source and used it by dosing into the intake of a diatom filter that filters down to 1 micron. This was just to get my PO4 levels down to a point that GFO could effectively take over with out being exhausted with in a day.

Mainly my fear comes from reports of damage or death as has been reported in threads like this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&page=52

And fears that LaCL3 itself could cause issues
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx


Using LaCL3 has been around for a while
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

and is used in Large aquariums
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium/


However, LaCL3 products being made for aquarium use are marketing it as safe to use and gives dosing instructions to just dump it into the water. Maybe some of it's filtered out and maybe some isn't.

Like this product
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/products/additives/agent-green-phosphate-remover/
Regarding the precipitated particles ("beads")
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/mcm_faq/read-agent-green-not-harmful-to-fish/
Regarding left over LaCL3 in the tank
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/mcm_faq/happens-excess-agent-green-react/
The rest of the FAQ repeating over and over again the safeness of LaCL3 that's used in agent green
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/?_wpnonce=c10556a781&customsearch=mcm_faq&s=agent+green


Another product among many coming to market saying it's totally safe
http://www.tecomarine.com/product/phosphate-remover/


I'd assume many people now have been dosing these products straight into their tanks with out 10micron or less filtration? I know on another forum there's a thread by melev stating over and over again how safe the product is that he sells and he uses it straight into his tank as well.

Is there some magical way that these products are forming LaCL3? That these "beads" are somehow larger particulates then what would be formed by a product like phosfree or seaklear and be safer?

Of course none of that is considering the issue overdosing causing rapid pH reduction and Alk reduction as well as striping out to much to fast.

[bertoni]

I suspect the product is the same as the others. I haven't heard of any safer lanthanum chloride products.

[jason2459]

I figure LaCL3 is LaCL3. But it does make me question the safety of it? Or are they making it so dilute its not making much of an impact? I know the concentration of the phosfree as its in the SDS. I don't know the concentration of seaklear. But I do see its recommended to dilute the products like seaklear before dosing. Once diluted is filtration as big of a concern? It seems to be. It just seems like there's potential to have or we should already be seeing a lot of "mysterious" fish deaths by people buying and using these products with no research on their potential risk.

[jason2459]

I actually found a company selling Lanthanum Chloride for aquarium use that warns of it's harmful effects and doesn't suggest dosing directly into the aquarium with out proper filtration.
http://www.derkroon.com/lanthanum-reactor/35-lanthanum-chloride-solution-250-ml.html

But then again they sell a Lanthanum Reactor which his a first I've seen marketed.
http://www.derkroon.com/lanthanum-reactor/10-lth100-lanthanum-reactor.html

[slief]

Lanthanum Chloride frankly scares me to use without some very good means of filtering out the precipitation that is formed. I've used Phosfree in the past (many years ago now I guess) as a LaCl3 source and used it by dosing into the intake of a diatom filter that filters down to 1 micron. This was just to get my PO4 levels down to a point that GFO could effectively take over with out being exhausted with in a day.

Mainly my fear comes from reports of damage or death as has been reported in threads like this:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&page=52

And fears that LaCL3 itself could cause issues
http://www.beananimal.com/articles/lanthanum-chloride-and-tangs.aspx


Using LaCL3 has been around for a while
http://www.coralmagazine-us.com/content/foiling-phosphate

and is used in Large aquariums
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007/2/aquarium/


However, LaCL3 products being made for aquarium use are marketing it as safe to use and gives dosing instructions to just dump it into the water. Maybe some of it's filtered out and maybe some isn't.

Like this product
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/products/additives/agent-green-phosphate-remover/
Regarding the precipitated particles ("beads")
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/mcm_faq/read-agent-green-not-harmful-to-fish/
Regarding left over LaCL3 in the tank
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/mcm_faq/happens-excess-agent-green-react/
The rest of the FAQ repeating over and over again the safeness of LaCL3 that's used in agent green
http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/?_wpnonce=c10556a781&customsearch=mcm_faq&s=agent+green


Another product among many coming to market saying it's totally safe
http://www.tecomarine.com/product/phosphate-remover/


I'd assume many people now have been dosing these products straight into their tanks with out 10micron or less filtration? I know on another forum there's a thread by melev stating over and over again how safe the product is that he sells and he uses it straight into his tank as well.

Is there some magical way that these products are forming LaCL3? That these "beads" are somehow larger particulates then what would be formed by a product like phosfree or seaklear and be safer?

Of course none of that is considering the issue overdosing causing rapid pH reduction and Alk reduction as well as striping out to much to fast.

People have dosed them without the socks but you often hear about issues with anemones and even fish. Tanges especially. Dosing directly into the tank without the use of socks even with the lower concentrated versions generally results in clouding which is the result of the precipitate. The moment LaCl comes in contact with water containing PO4 the reaction occurs and the Po4 precipitate is formed.. There is no way around that. The precipitate results in some clouding which never good for the fish as it effects the gills of the fish and their ability to take in o2. The more you reduce your Po4 through the use of LaCl, the greater the precipitate in the water. Regardless of what the instructions say, dosing directly into 10 micron or less filter socks should always be done to insure the precipitate doesn't get into the water column.

I've been using SeaKlear commercial Phosphate remover (LaCl) for years now and I always use the 10 micron socks and always dilute my LaCl into RODI water and dose the stuff very slowly over the course of several hours. I never see clouding or have any issues as a result of my treatment. I have to question a product that tells you to dose directly into the tank and tell you that clouding will occur. That is just bad news IMO and is NOT safe for many marine species contrary to what the manufacturer says.

[jason2459]

But we're supposed to trust the shark... :hammer:

[laga77]

I`m guessing dosing it into a diatom filter would be a good way to use it.

[jason2459]

I have a vortex xl diatom filter I use 1-2x a year to create a typhoon in the tank.

It's very effective. Especially for dosing lacl3 as it filter at 1 micron. Also very cheap long term as I bought a big bag of DE powder from pool supply store and will last me a lifetime.

[jason2459]

I did email ATM asking how they can be 100% sure their agent green product is safe for all fish and inverts compare to other lanthanum chloride products that aren't.

[bertoni]

It'll be interesting to see what they have to say, assuming they respond.

[jason2459]

I'm not going to hold my breath.

[karimwassef]

I used their stuff and it was good. I also used seaklear.

I dose directly into the intake of my monster skimmer... very little particulate can survive it.

With the ATM stuff, I never got a negative reaction, but it's like 100x the cost per reactive LaCl content as the SeaKlear. I think that's why it's safer. The concentration in the raw pool grade stuff is so high, that 5ml, even in my 660gal is a big deal.

So, with the ATM stuff, I never had a problem - but I haven't bought it again due to cost.

With the SeaKlear, I slowly upped the dose until my purple tang started having fits and breathing hard. That's the first sign that there's trouble. I had little life in the tank back then, so I could experiment more.

I backed off the dose and eventually went to 1/10th and he was fine again. I eventually stopped as my man-made rocks stopped leaching P and just use a GFO occasionally now.

So, I think the dosage is key... the concentrated pool grade stuff should be diluted 100x and then dosed into a filter or a skimmer (in my case).

I know this isn't useful without the quantities I dosed - but I'd have to look that up and I'm a little lazy today :) but still wanted to share.

[karimwassef]

I do have to comment on the LaCl reactor... seriously, a clear tube with a dense pack of fine floss/cotton, an inlet, outlet and dosing airline tube..... $285 (260EU)...

Why. why, why??

[karimwassef]

So bertoni, to dilute the LaCl... just add RODI water? would any P (0.1 ppm?) in the water immediately just precipitate out and the rest is fine to use?

[jason2459]

Yes, RO/DI should be fine to dilute with.

I dosed a few drops at a time undiluted into my diatom filter back when I used it.

I also wonder how dilute that agent green is or many of the aquarium specific products like it are. But according to their FAQ, if I remember right, they recommend dropping 1ppm per day of PO4 and they have something that tells you how much to dose to achieve that. I didn't look that much further into it but someone should be able to figure the concentration based on that by comparing to how much something like phosfree drops PO4 by 1ppm as that product does provide its concentration and how much of the product will drop X amount of phosphates.

I'm to distracted to do it myself right now. Maybe if my ADD kicks in enough I'll get distracted enough to circle around to doing it.

But that also assumes their recommendations are accurate...

[bertoni]

I agree that RO/DI is fine for diluting lanthanum chloride. Any phosphate would precipitate.

[jason2459]

No reply from ATM yet but I wasn't expecting one. I'm going to call their customer support line tomorrow and ask.

[jason2459]

Called their support and sales line. Conveniently no one was available but I left a voicemail so someone can get back to me.

[StevieK]

Lanthanum Chloride frankly scares me to use without some very good means of filtering out the precipitation that is formed. I've used Phosfree in the past.


Dilution: 1x100
Filtering: Diatom to 1 micron

Dosage: ??

How about a 10micron sock (after the display) 50g ahead of a skimmer, would this be sufficient?

[jason2459]

They actually called me back and ready to talk about Agent Green. The person on the phone was really nice and seemed to know the product well and disclosed what he could. It didn't really convince me it was 100% safe but here's the quick notes I got from the call

1. ATM doesn't just relabel any of their products. They make all their products in house.
2. ATM sources the lanthanum ore from a reliable source
3. There's 5 different ways to make LaCL3. ATM makes it the right way to be safe for our tanks
4. Agent Green has been in use commercially for at least 10 years
5. Aqua culture farms and large aquariums have never had any issues with their agent green product
6. They received a call of one person accidentally putting an entire bottle into a tank but had no deaths or damages to anything in it
7. There has been no actual study to show there's anything toxic or harmful with LaCL3

I questioned more about number 3 but couldn't get anything else other then they can't know how other products are made but can assure me that they are making their LaCL3 correct. At one point because I asked in a few different ways and I can't remember how I actually phrased this one question but he mentioned that in the end agent green is just Lanthanum Chloride but didn't explain how a compound LaCL3 could be different from LaCL3.

Later on I asked in a deferent way about the safety or any concerns with the fish's gills or HLLE caused by the precipitate that happens and he explained that as with any product you wouldn't want to over use it and for some reason used GAC as an example. He explained that just like with carbon it's a safe product but if used wrong could product HLLE. I'm thinking to myself that yes, GAC, if not rinsed well could allow very small particles like the precipitation that is created by lanthanum chloride when bonding with phosphates to get into the tank and cause issues with Fish. Particularly Tangs.

He then brought up another call that a lady in California called in about which was that she had a couple tangs and one of them would act weird when ever she dosed Agent Green in her tank. She said when ever it got cloudy one of her tangs (Powder Blue I think it was) would go into hiding but the rest of her fish including another tang acted just fine. The rep asked her if after the cloudiness disappeared if the tang that went into hiding would come out and she said yes everything was normal after those events. So, the person I talked with on the phone used that as an example of the safeness of their Agent Green.

[jason2459]

Dilution: 1x100
Filtering: Diatom to 1 micron

Dosage: ??

How about a 10micron sock (after the display) 50g ahead of a skimmer, would this be sufficient?

I'm not sure. I used it undiluted into a diatom filter at 1 micron. Some use 10 micron and some have said at least 5 micron. Use at your own risk basically.

[tmz]

The thread you listed first in your first post contains a lot of discussion and detail on La Cl including some of the dangers.

Fine prefiltration is must,IMO and experience.

The precipitant evident in the clouding is harmful; it is known to clog breathing apparatuses . Some dose directly & get by. I personally, saw a yellow tang swim through a light cloud from a hobby commercial product and stop breathing in a friends tank , attempts to revive it immediately in new water were unsuccessful. I've also seen a 4 inch maxima calm get serious pinched mantle after exposure to a cloud; it died within a few days.

There are several ways it can go wrong:

LaCl disassociates in the water . The La binds with PO4;probably more readily with
PO4---, than PO4 species with a lesser charge. Comments from public aquarium folks suggest a max overall PO4 reduction floor at about .1+; I've seen it go to about .05 or so. So, when the PO4 is low the La will bind proportionately more CO3 instead: hence more alkalinity depletion.

Slow dosing to high water volume areas helps insure a maximum amount of PO4 in the water along with a maxmum amount of carbonate to pick up the slack lessening the amount of free La which will get through the filtration. The free lanthanum entering the tank may precipitate anywhere and the effects of the reaction may case trouble. Potential ingestion via drinking water with free or bound lanthanum or eating some may also cause trouble,speculatively speaking.

LaCl dosing can reduce PO4 very quickly leading to stress by organisms due to the rapid drop in available PO4.

As for dilution; I did the math before switching from a hobby grade product to Sea Klear years ago The SeaKlear was bout 1/10th the cost .

All in all, I chose not to stop using LaCl even with fine filtration and slow doing in favor of GFO which can be cost effective when regenerated. I do still use La CL outside the tank when curing rock leaching PO4.


I certainly can't explain the marketing claims about safety but IMO caveat emptor pertains.

[jason2459]

Thanks for chiming in here TMZ. Yes, that first link is about the best thread to read through for anyone considering dosing LaCL3 of any kind.

I'm also still ultra cautious with the usage of Lanthanum Chloride regardless of manufacturer. That call with ATM certainly didn't convince me of it's safety especially with his poor example comparing it to using GAC properly considering it's the fine particles in GAC you are trying to prevent getting into the tank and in contact with the fish.

I was trying to understand the marketing side of it and how they can justify it's safety but didn't get anything other then trust us, no one has told us it's caused problems (besides the people that have called in with problems...), and we make it ourselves so we know it's safe.

I also haven't used it in several years and don't have plans to. I don't even use GFO anymore as carbon dosing and algae harvesting has done everything I need to keep PO4 down.

I have noticed a lot of people asking about it and see that several companies are making aquarium specific products with LaCl3 in it stating it's totally safe. Which concerns me.

[tmz]

I have also balanced out the organic carbon dosing(vodka and vinegar) to a point where I haven't used GFO in over 2 years.

It conerns me too since it isn't safe and the explainations are well,,,,,; at best cloudy.

Found this piece on potential toxicity issues related to apoptosis:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22213182

this is from it:

in the context of raised lanthanum, greater attention should be paid to potential toxic effects associated to the use of lanthanide-based drugs.

I know public aquraiums have used it and do pay close attention to prefiltartion. I haven't found a necropsy but suspect there have been some to support the clogging conclusions.

[bertoni]

I suspect that they are touting the lack of any contaminants such as copper that might cause toxicity. That might be true, but it doesn't necessarily mean that their product is safer for tangs, for example. We don't know why tangs seem more prone to problems in the first place.

[jason2459]

The person on the phone specifically said that their way of creating LaCL3 makes for a product perfectly safe for all fish and inverts and other methods of creating it does not create a safe end product. He went on to talking about how corals will consume what they want out of it and spit back out what they don't want.

[jason2459]

Just saw tmz's edit. Very interesting link.
0.1 µM suppressed the β-glycerophosphate-induced alkaline phosphatase activity and calcium deposition.

That could be bad for everything and not a very large amount.

[tmz]

I don't know what 5 ways to manufacture LaCl the representative is talking about . It is made from lanthanum oxide III, a rare earth metal mined in several locations throughout the world. This is the usual process per Wikipedia:

It forms upon union of the elements, but a more commonly used method involves heating a mixture of lanthanum(III) oxide and ammonium chloride at 200-250 °C:[2]

La2O3 + 6 NH4Cl → 2 LaCl3 + 6 NH3 + 2 H2O

Here are a few more concerns about La from a source in the water treatment industry:

http://www.lenntech.com/periodic/elements/la.htm

From it:

Lanthanum will gradually accumulate in soils and water soils and this will eventually lead to increasing concentrations in humans, animals and soil particles.

With water animals Lanthanum causes damage to cell membranes, which has several negative influences on reproduction and on the functions of the nervous system. It strongly accumulates in mussels.

[jason2459]

He wouldn't go into how they make it from the Lanthanum ore that they get. I didn't want to push to hard as I wanted him to keep talking. He did mention at one point multiple types of chlorides but he didn't tie it to how they make their agent green. He did maneuver around how their LaCl3 is different then any other LaCl3 end product other then any reports of negative effects is either old data, not aquarium specific LaCL3, or not backed up with any scientific study.