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SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 12:30 PM
Hi all. I've been using info from the RC forums for months and finally decided to join. I acquired a tank from a neighbor who was moving and I couldn't beat the deal and have been enjoying the hobby since! (7 months or so) It was a pretty well established tank and I have only had fun adding on.

Here's what I got:
40gal with 30-40lbs(?) or so of live rock, live substrate, Marineland Emperor 400 filter, a hang on protein skimmer (psk-100H?), and I don't know the specs on the powerhead. I also have a Current USA Orbit LED aquarium lighting system.

My stock:
Ocellaris Clownfish
Blue Damsel
Bluefin Damsel
PJ Cardinal
Starry Bleny
Royal Gramma
Purple Firefish
Chromi
Powder Brown Tang
Green Mandarin Goby

Non-fish stock:
7 hermit crabs
1 emerald crab
1 turbo snail
1 or two small snails that stay buried in the substrate
1 feather duster
1 small tube anemone
some mushroom corals, a small rock of green star polyps, and a leather toadstool

I know it's a heavy stock, but everybody has been happy and healthy. I'm sure I'll catch some flack for the two damsels, but for the most part they're good (the bluefin being the worst offender). I had an issue with levels a month or so ago; low ph and alkalinity, high salinity and nitrates. 3 of the 4 are about perfect now, and nitrates are coming down. I'm also lucky to have an awesome local fish store with a very knowledgeable owner who genuinely takes an interest in what's going on with my tank and steers me away from things that are too expensive, too difficult, or just plain dangerous.

Ok, so here it goes... Is my stock list crazy? I want more rock and corals, and am thinking of getting a small black longspine urchin and a small brittle starfish. (note: my local library will be getting a 125 gal setup in 2017 that I will be in charge of. I will use it for stock trading if needed/wanted)

vhuang168
12/09/2015, 12:35 PM
Actually you are not going to get flack for the damsels but rather the powder brown tang and the mandarin.

40g is too short for the tang and the mandarin is going to starve long term because your tank is too small to sustain a big enough pod population to feed it adequately.

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 12:40 PM
The tang does well. It's fun to watch it use the space (lots of tunnels it likes to go through), but yes, if it begins to show signs of needing more space it will likely go to my future library tank. And I did allow a pod population to build for 6 weeks or more before adding the mandarin. It's been eating quite well.

reefbroao
12/09/2015, 12:44 PM
The mandarin will decimate the pod population in days and take another month to starve. Believe me without a sump and being well established there is no chance for him. Even then in a 40g with a sump it may not be enough. They eat hundreds of pods a day.

unless you want to pay $20+ a bottle for pods and feed multiple times

They are perfect fish, but IMHO they are not meant for captivity even if they are trained to eat mysis they need the pods.
The problem is that they can go without food for a while before succumbing to death, so while me may appear to be hunting he could be frantically searching for food that may not even be there.

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 12:58 PM
The mandarin may be my favorite fish. I will certainly keep an eye on him. And yes, my intention was to buy the pods to keep the population up. My main source for info on that suggests every 2 to 3 months to keep it going. Is this enough?

reefbroao
12/09/2015, 01:07 PM
I went down the same route but with all kindness and respect I urge you to consider letting them go. They will absolutely destroy pod populations that figure may be for a well established tank. Don't quote me on this but i'd speculate a mandarin could kill a pod pack in a week or less. I had one and 3 days later knew I had to return him. Let others chime in about this I don't want to be the only devils advocate.

Member Cstickland gave me some figure that convinced me to let them go.

"there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours...and given 12 hours of dark when it is not eating (it actually eats before the lights come on...that is 43200 seconds of daylight, divided by 5 (every five seconds)---meaning that a mandy eats about 8640 pods a day, or 720 an hour. Two thousand pods, if fed to it in the required concentration, will be eaten in less than 3 hours."

Taahirs
12/09/2015, 01:17 PM
That powder brown will definitely need a bigger tank

C.Eymann
12/09/2015, 01:22 PM
That powder brown will definitely need a bigger tank

It already does even if its fairly small IMO. Also agree with what the others said about the mandarin needs to be re-homed too.
After both the tang and the mandarin have been removed, I would say the OP is at the max stocking level for a 40B as it is.
just my .02

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 01:41 PM
As far as being established I should note that this tank was running for several years before I took possession of it. The last few years it has nothing in it but the clownfish, blue damsel, and mushrooms. I took the whole setup, rock, water, everything. We just moved it across the street.

Thanks for your input though. I'm not discounting any of it, just trying to put it all together.

CHSUB
12/09/2015, 02:00 PM
I went down the same route but with all kindness and respect I urge you to consider letting them go. They will absolutely destroy pod populations that figure may be for a well established tank. Don't quote me on this but i'd speculate a mandarin could kill a pod pack in a week or less. I had one and 3 days later knew I had to return him. Let others chime in about this I don't want to be the only devils advocate.

Member Cstickland gave me some figure that convinced me to let them go.

"there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours...and given 12 hours of dark when it is not eating (it actually eats before the lights come on...that is 43200 seconds of daylight, divided by 5 (every five seconds)---meaning that a mandy eats about 8640 pods a day, or 720 an hour. Two thousand pods, if fed to it in the required concentration, will be eaten in less than 3 hours."

8640 pods per day? i think you're confusing a mandrin with a humpback whale.....i think a mandy would do fine with 10-20 pods per day.

Sugar Magnolia
12/09/2015, 03:00 PM
8640 pods per day? i think you're confusing a mandrin with a humpback whale.....i think a mandy would do fine with 10-20 pods per day.

No, they are constant grazers, meaning the eat continuously. 10-20 pods is merely a light snack.

Taahirs
12/09/2015, 03:22 PM
No, they are constant grazers, meaning the eat continuously. 10-20 pods is merely a light snack.


+1. A few thousand is what they eat

reefbroao
12/09/2015, 04:17 PM
It seems unbelievable until you watch them. They don't stop hunting for a second.

xxsevxx
12/09/2015, 04:28 PM
So my cousin has a 25gal and hes had a Mandarin in there for over 2 years now. Hes a fatty and hes super active. I have a 45 and have been dying to have one but have refrained from doing so. He seeds his tank with pods 2 times a year. Also he never feeds meaty food to his tank, strictly pellets, which the Manadarin also eats. He feeds the tank once a day after work. I really really want one of these little guys but I'm thinking his tank might be an exception to the rule.

reefbroao
12/09/2015, 04:39 PM
It's extremely hard to get a mandarin to accept pellets. harder than getting them to accept mysis.

BrianD
12/09/2015, 06:09 PM
To answer the question posed in the thread title, yes, the stock list is crazy.

And sad.

linelife1474
12/09/2015, 06:25 PM
I am new to the hobby but seem like a heavily stocked tank compared to most. And from all the research I've done about mandarins there is no way it could survive in a 40 gallon tank it's hard for them to survive in 200 gallon tanks the pods just can not reproduce at the rate they eat them in small tanks. If it's eating other food I guess it's possible but if you're just using pods to feed there's no way trust me its my favorite fish but there is no way I would put it in my 55 gallon tank knowing that he would run out of food at some point

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 06:44 PM
To answer the question posed in the thread title, yes, the stock list is crazy.

And sad.

Gee, Brian, thanks for the friendly and helpful comment.

TBH I've had experienced reefers express envy over my setup and have told me my tank is doing great. Not just fine, but great. I've found a lot of helpful tips in these forums, so I thought I'd try it out for myself. Comments like that certainly make it less worth the time.

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 06:47 PM
So my cousin has a 25gal and hes had a Mandarin in there for over 2 years now. Hes a fatty and hes super active. ...but I'm thinking his tank might be an exception to the rule.

Not necessarily the exception. I've known a few people who have been successful like this.

gone fishin
12/09/2015, 06:51 PM
IMO I think your overstocked without even getting into the tang or mandarin.

pyithar
12/09/2015, 07:32 PM
imo i think your overstocked without even getting into the tang or mandarin.

+1

anthonys51
12/09/2015, 08:05 PM
i would say your stock list is on the heavy side, but if you keep up with your maintenance and water changes its not impossible they will survive. all the other fish are hardy and your soft corals are easy to take care of. so you do have a little room for error with this stock list.
the mandarin is hard to keep, like the others have said it will probably slowly starve to death, i would restock with pods and try to train it to eat frozen mysit shrimp. and still this may not be enough to keep it alive for years, but hey cant fault you for trying..
as far as the tangm i would get one of the bristletooth tangs, i have a kole tang in a 55 about 3-4 inches and he has been in there 9 months and doesn't bother anyone and eats like a pig. the brown tang will get to big and might get very nasty with your oher fish. i am in the same dilemma, my wife got me a little quarter size hippo tang, it was floating in the tank for me on my birthday.. its been 6 months and so far he is growing and doing ok. but for first 3 months he wouldn't come out . my kole and clownfish was beating him up. i also know he shouldnt be in the tank, but try explaining that to the wife. good luck with your fish.

atraperegrinus
12/09/2015, 08:50 PM
I agree on the others about the mandarin.

heres a post from sk8r

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2446049&highlight=mandarin

and heres a direct quote right from the thread.

i bolded the important part to note.

Posted 03/03/2012 at 09:44 AM by Sk8r
A mandy should be making a successful 'kill' of a pod every 5 seconds to remain healthy. Keeping one in a well-established 50 with 50 lbs of holey rock, and a mature, year-old 20 gallon fuge with another 20 lbs of rock is very marginal. If you meet those conditions and there is no competition for pods, you can do it with caution. A hundred gallon tank is better.

To run the math, there are 86400 seconds in 24 hours...and given 12 hours of dark when it is not eating (it actually eats before the lights come on...that is 43200 seconds of daylight, divided by 5 (every five seconds)---meaning that a mandy eats about 8640 pods a day, or 720 an hour. Two thousand pods, if fed to it in the required concentration, will be eaten in less than 3 hours. If you have a pair---do the math. You need at least 100 gallons supported by a very large, strong fuge with cheato and live rock.

Marchillo
12/09/2015, 09:08 PM
So my cousin has a 25gal and hes had a Mandarin in there for over 2 years now. Hes a fatty and hes super active. I have a 45 and have been dying to have one but have refrained from doing so. He seeds his tank with pods 2 times a year. Also he never feeds meaty food to his tank, strictly pellets, which the Manadarin also eats. He feeds the tank once a day after work. I really really want one of these little guys but I'm thinking his tank might be an exception to the rule.

What else was in the tank? From what people say you can get Mandy's to eat food other than pods as a supplement. Here is the kicker. They will get out competed for that food especially with the OP's stock list.

To the OP please don't get frustrated because you aren't getting the answer you want. Everyone here are trying to help bc they care about your success and the animals you care for. While some people are more blunt about it then others, you see a consistent message on this thread and if you do a basic search on the tang and the Mandy. They just aren't right for this tank. You could have a few months of success but it will eventually catch up to you.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

sde1500
12/09/2015, 09:43 PM
Can I ask what the point of this thread is? If you read as much as you claim to have read, on this forum, you'd know the answers you were going to get. And you have pushed back against anyone saying as much.
You ask for opinions and then argue the consensus. Why? What's the point?

Grkgod36
12/09/2015, 09:46 PM
+1

+3

SnurpFish
12/09/2015, 10:54 PM
Can I ask what the point of this thread is? If you read as much as you claim to have read, on this forum, you'd know the answers you were going to get. And you have pushed back against anyone saying as much.
You ask for opinions and then argue the consensus. Why? What's the point?

I haven't made any claims as to how much I have read on this forum, simply that I've found it useful. I posted because I was curious as to the response I would get. I haven't pushed back, merely offered my end, and even said thank you for the comments and that I wasn't discounting any of them. I did find one comment fairly rude because it criticized without giving reason or further commentary than to say my tank was "sad" so yes, that got on my nerves. Otherwise most of the other commentators offered their reasons which were all justifiable. I didn't push back. When learning, we often question what we're being taught by saying we understood it this way, or had been told that. It doesn't mean the student is pushing back, rather that they are trying to encompass new information into what they had previously understood.

reefbroao
12/09/2015, 10:59 PM
Yeah I'm not sure that post was deserving. I know most people on this forum are very supportive and that was a very negative and rude comment. You're doing the right thing by asking and getting opinions.

Taahirs
12/10/2015, 01:04 AM
You've got too many fish for that size tank. Territory is going to be a problem. Food for the mandarin as well. If you can get him onto mysis or pellets ; then by all means keep him.

Just please sell the powder brown. They need a far bigger tank and are prone to getting whitespot when feeling stressed. He probably isn't enjoying life in that little tank.

Your skimmer also isn't all that big, so nutrients may become a problem in the future. With 9 fish in the tank (excluding the powder brown) you're on the limit. Maybe consider reducing the Fish load to 7 small fish.

shifty51008
12/10/2015, 01:37 AM
Gee, Brian, thanks for the friendly and helpful comment.

TBH I've had experienced reefers express envy over my setup and have told me my tank is doing great. Not just fine, but great. I've found a lot of helpful tips in these forums, so I thought I'd try it out for myself. Comments like that certainly make it less worth the time.

Well in the title you asked and he answered.

Ive had alot of people tell me im doing something good also to make me feel good even though they and i knew what i was doing was not correct.

I guess the best answer you will get is from your fish when they start getting sick and die, hopefully you will take the advice of others and do the right thing though.

Dkuhlmann
12/10/2015, 03:07 AM
That powder brown will definitely need a bigger tank

Your LFS owner or employee should have steered you away from the powder brown, as well as the mandarin and the damsels.

BrianD
12/10/2015, 06:22 AM
Well in the title you asked and he answered.



Exactly.

Closed.