Phosphate levels

[b1ink]

Hi Guys,

is .68 considered high? I have TONS of algae so i am thinking this is the culprit.

thanks for any info

[scooter31707]

yes, I like to keep mines no higher than .10.

[jason2459]

It is high and could be one of the contributing factors to the algae issue. What are you using to measure your PO4?

This is a good source for recommended parameters
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/

PO4 is suggested to be maintained around .03. I find my system does fine between .04 and .08. I try and stay under .09. If it goes over .09 I add GFO into a reactor to my system.

[billdogg]

^^^What Jason said^^^

With a hobbiest grade test kit, if it's detectable, it's probably borderline high.

[C.Eymann]

If its .68 AND you currently have as you say it "tons of algae" then your level was probably terribly high before the algae set in, only feasable way for you to have such a problem is if you have something leaching or using bad RO_DI or straight tap water.

OP what are you using for water?

[b1ink]

Thank you all for the responses. I should note that this is a 75 gallon aquarium tank that will eventually be a mixed reef tank. i am also using ATI t5 lights.

I am using RODI. I even had the filters changed along with the membrane. I think there are a few issues here :

1. My apartment water pressure only allows the RODI unit to work at 35psi. Don't worry after this whole disaster i have just received a new booster pump. I am thinking that the RODI unit isnt working as well with low psi so its not filtering the water the best.

2. I was only using one Maxspect gyre 130 - so i think the flow was too low. i have since then added a Jaebo along with the gyre.

3. to be honest i was probably over feeding. i have seen alot of detritis build up on the sand bed recently. i have since lowered the amount of food i am providing and also feeding with a turkey baister instead of just dumping the food in all at once.

My nitrates are low (6ppm ) so i dont think they are an issue. I am using a Red Sea test kit for both NO3 and PO4. One other note is i have seen cyano starting to build up and even in my refugium.

I have also recently added a GFO reactor to my sump

Should i dose the aquarium with vodka at this point? i am getting a bigger better protein skimmer within days.

[C.Eymann]

I would use phosphate sponge for a 24 hr period, remove and discard then hunt down your actual cause of it.

[jason2459]

If done right the redsea nitrate and PO4 kits should be at least a good indication of where you're at.

GFO will help but at that level will most likely be exhausted fairly quickly. Like in a day. So may need changed out every couple days to start with.

I would pull some algae out by hand for as long as you have the patience for. 10 minutes a day is better then not at all. Doing that alone will help export the nutrients(NO3 and PO4) they consumed.
If you want to go down the path of carbon dosing make sure to read up on it and ramping up slower is better then to fast.
Vodka
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/

I use vinegar
http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

Mixing the two (like what's in redsea NOPOX but a lot cheaper)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23783407#post23783407

A good discussion on carbon dosing
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=23783407#post23783407


Another option I've done before but do so at your own risk and I highly suggest very good under 10 micron filtration is the slow use of lanthanum chloride. But it can strip out a lot of phosphates to fast and can be harmful to your fish if not filtered well. But it is highly effective while you're manually pulling out the algae by hand and getting the PO4 under control to where your GFO isn't exhausted in a day.

Lanthanum discussion (read all of it)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&page=52

My thread on its safety
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474839&page=52

[jason2459]

I would use phosphate sponge for a 24 hr period, remove and discard then hunt down your actual cause of it.
I'm personally not a fan of aluminum based products as I have seen anything to indicate their ability to be totally insoluble. And nothing to prove that that is safe and indications that it is not.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/7/chemistry

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-09/rhf/

[droog]

Agree with everything above.

GFO will work well on phosphates too if you run in a reactor. Carbon dosing works well to keep things under control. If you use GFO in a reactor, I think a good target would be for your tank to be stable at <0.1ppm PO4 by easter 2016. Read up on the topics Jason posted above, he's done you a great favor with those links.

You could use lanthanim chloride a few times to get the levels down quicker, but you'll still want to use GFO and/or carbon dosing later to maintain levels where you want to be.

Personally I'd stick with

0] Cut down feeding. Do a few days lights out. Limit photo period to 8 hrs a day.
1] GFO in a reactor
2] Choose your PO4 test kit and measure every week or two
3] Manually remove the algae when you do water changes
4] Read up on carbon dosing decide if you want that or not

Shoot for pristine water by easter. If you get there sooner, give yourself a massive pat on the back. Slow and steady wins this race :)

You could try take a picture once a week if you like. That helps show that things really are getting better. Sometimes it feels like progress is very slow but you'll get there.

-droog

[jason2459]

I've had my fair share of algae. Take it slow and steady is right.


Here's my old 55g after I got it setup with a bunch of pukani dry rock before it was known that it leaches PO4 like mad.
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/17/7fb2b63dc8063f6caf99c67f394e6f68.jpg

It will take time and needs patience. At the levels you're at its likely in your rock and will slowly leach out but it will. Keep yanking out the algae and keep up with some other methods of export.

[whosurcaddie]

Like Jason said its absolutely going to take some time. I had the same issue as he did with the dry rock (my tank looked just like his) and it seamed to take forever to pull the phosphate out of that rock. All I'm saying is you will get it under control just don't expect it to happen overnight.

I used the lanthanum method, but you need to really research that method before you undertake something like that.

[b1ink]

any ideas of how i should take a good picture? whenever i take a pic with my cell phone (android galaxy) the blue in the ATI t5 really drowns out the image. anyway to maybe change a setting on the phone to take a more realistic image?

also... my algae isnt hair algae yet, its brown slime and some of it is cyano

[jason2459]

Siphon that out or suck it out with a baster. Some say blow it off but you're not pulling out the nutrients that bacteria, dino, or diatoms have consumed. I think you already mentioned you're increasing flow and that will help.

[jason2459]

Darn, I can't find pictures of my first cyano phase which was just before that massive GHA phase. It was quite impressive with red cyano billowing on top of everything.

[CStrickland]

.68 is high, but it's only part of the phos in your tank. The tests can only see free-phos, but there can be a whole lot hiding from them by binding with other stuff like carbon that makes up your rocks, and inside the algae / cyano / diatoms themselves. As your water levels get lower the rocks will let go of some of the phos that's bound to them (that's what people mean when they say "leaching" from rocks) and it will become testable. Also, any dead algae that you don't get out of the tank with your hands will decay and release phos back into the water.

So it's good to think about the big picture. As those things happen and the phos is freed it will become testable and available to GFO for removal. But since there's no way to know how much is bound until it's released, it's hard to say how long it will take for the big picture phos level to go down.

Sounds like you just have a regular new tank diatom and cyano situation. I bet it's not as bad as you think. Try taking a pic in the daytime with the blues off. It's really hard to fix the pics after the fact, but there might be an app or something for it. Try the photography subforum.

PS you don't mention water changes and it sounds like detritus is building up on your sand. I prefer to suck that out with a vacuum tube every week, and feed my fish a lot of fresh healthy food.

PPS I don't use t5 bulbs but I think I heard if you don't replace them algae can take off?

[jason2459]

Yep, T5's as they age shift toward the red spectrum which algae just loves.

[b1ink]

Yea i read that about T5s too, however my light and the bulbs are only 2 months old. so i seriously doubt its the lighting

[b1ink]

My tank is almost 1 year old and ive never had any problems with algae like this before. i've added a pic to show yo u what the sand bed looks like and the cheato in the refugium.

i am becoming more suspicious of my RODI unit. I replaced all 4 filters in it recently (membrane, micron filter, carbon block, and di canister filter). When i first bought the unit from my LFS they said i wouldnt be able to buy replacements anywhere else and that i would only be able to buy them from their store. I thought that was a load of bull because i was able to find the correct replacement for both the micron filter and di canister filter. However when i changed the middle filter - the carbon block i noticed that the stock filter was somewhat smaller than the replacement i bought.

Could it be that i have the wrong carbon block in my RODI unit and that maybe the unit isnt working properly?

[b1ink]

Also - can anyone tell me what GFO looks like when its being used or depleted? i just added this in 2 days ago. i have attached an image of what it currently looks like.

[jason2459]

That's not bad at all. Looks like diatoms to me. Need to make sure your DI resin is good and is packed in well so no channel is occurring. Diatoms like silicates which can come from Tap water that makes it through your RO membranes and DI if not packed in well or is exhausted.

Take a picture of your RO/DI unit. There are some funky ones out there but a majority of them are pretty universal. I get all my prefilters and DI from Bulkreef supply or Spectrapure and RO membranes from Spectrapure.

You wont know your GFO is depleted with out testing the water going into the reactor and testing the water coming out of the reactor. If they are the same then the GFO is exhausted. If the water coming out is lower then it's still working. Make sure the GFO has a nice slow rumbling on the top.

[b1ink]

That's not bad at all. Looks like diatoms to me. Need to make sure your DI resin is good and is packed in well so no channel is occurring. Diatoms like silicates which can come from Tap water that makes it through your RO membranes and DI if not packed in well or is exhausted.

Take a picture of your RO/DI unit. There are some funky ones out there but a majority of them are pretty universal. I get all my prefilters and DI from Bulkreef supply or Spectrapure and RO membranes from Spectrapure.

You wont know your GFO is depleted with out testing the water going into the reactor and testing the water coming out of the reactor. If they are the same then the GFO is exhausted. If the water coming out is lower then it's still working. Make sure the GFO has a nice slow rumbling on the top.

Thanks for the feedback Jason - i agree with you, i think its just simply brown aglae diatoms, however in the other picture i showed, it looks like cyano in my refugium and is taking over the cheato

[jason2459]

Thanks for the feedback Jason - i agree with you, i think its just simply brown aglae diatoms, however in the other picture i showed, it looks like cyano in my refugium and is taking over the cheato


Pull the chaeto out and rinse with water from a water change. I wouldn't shake it off in the refugium.