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View Full Version : PAR meter , should a reefer need to have one as a general rule ?


machodik
01/04/2016, 05:13 AM
Dear All,

I have 2 kessil A360WE combo with 4 T5 (ATI bulb), after seeing BRS compare at reading between A360 with that of their AP 700 which show A360 was way low, of which this created my curiosity whether my said light system is good enough for my coral? My LPS is just fine but SPS looks bad.

If the BRS reading is correct , then I think Kessil should give us some explanation with it . I understand some SPS hobbyist got some good result with their Kessil and much wonder if the lights use by BRS was just an isolated case?

My light system still have room for one 400 K metal halides, if needed does anyone ever combo halides with Led with T5? Sound weird but still I want to know if there's ?

So , back to the main topic does we need to have a Par meter like our other equipment or test kits we have at home ? I hardly find someone to rent me one here.

Cheers,

MD

toothybugs
01/04/2016, 06:13 AM
I'm going to get one. I can't find one to rent either and my SPS are ailing, and unless I'm missing something, my PAR is the only thing I don't know. I really want to know what my lights are putting down. If nothing else, once I have it, I can rent it to other people for frags or something :)

ca1ore
01/04/2016, 08:29 AM
I've managed my way through almost 30 years in this hobby without one. Useful, yes; nice to have, yes; necessary .... probably not.

machodik
01/04/2016, 08:53 AM
I saw apex come up a PAK system , I wonder how many of you have it and how it helpful for you in locating the best spot for your various species of coral?

Ron Reefman
01/04/2016, 09:07 AM
I have one and I think 2 or 3 other people in my local club have them. When people need them they get loaned out. Do you need one, probably not unless you are messing around a lot with leds and fussy corals.

sixpackgarage
01/04/2016, 09:47 AM
Dear All,

I have 2 kessil A360WE combo with 4 T5 (ATI bulb), after seeing BRS compare at reading between A360 with that of their AP 700 which show A360 was way low, of which this created my curiosity whether my said light system is good enough for my coral? My LPS is just fine but SPS looks bad.

If the BRS reading is correct , then I think Kessil should give us some explanation with it . I understand some SPS hobbyist got some good result with their Kessil and much wonder if the lights use by BRS was just an isolated case?

My light system still have room for one 400 K metal halides, if needed does anyone ever combo halides with Led with T5? Sound weird but still I want to know if there's ?

So , back to the main topic does we need to have a Par meter like our other equipment or test kits we have at home ? I hardly find someone to rent me one here.

Cheers,

MD

I bought the Neptune PMK because I thought it was a cool toy. I didn't realize what a valuable tool it is until I changed from my 360 lights to my AP700. At 40% intensity, the AP was pushing as much PAR as my 360s were at 95%. Without the PAR meter, I would have chased my tail for maybe months to tune in the new light to where my corals would be happy. I had to end up running the AP at 40% peak for a couple of weeks. I've now ramped it up to around 60% peak.

machodik
01/04/2016, 10:37 AM
Thanks !

But the downside of Apex PMK is the detritus or algae or any dirt attach to its sensor in due time , isn't it?

On the other hand , I never knew Kessil A360we has such a weak PAR. I think this is a false practice of Kessil or Dicon ( the manufacturer) I wonder has anyone realize this not until we saw the PAR compassion data BRS provided?

If this is a weak LED then doesn't any one file a complain with them ?

I don't know The worthiness for us to buy those A360 that turn out to be weaker than their latest AP700. I don't against the theory that latest model perform better than the older one as this has been the on going improvement but I saw the number of PAR which is way low ( perhaps than other LeD in the market ? Sorry , if I am wrong here) They should know this for sure and that is why the difference I the latest vs the older version has such that big.

May be I am wrong please enlightened me ! Thanks

sixpackgarage
01/04/2016, 10:49 AM
Thanks !

But the downside of Apex PMK is the detritus or algae or any dirt attach to its sensor in due time , isn't it?

On the other hand , I never knew Kessil A360we has such a weak PAR. I think this is a false practice of Kessil or Dicon ( the manufacturer) I wonder has anyone realize this not until we saw the PAR compassion data BRS provided?

If this is a weak LED then doesn't any one file a complain with them ?

I don't know The worthiness for us to buy those A360 that turn out to be weaker than their latest AP700. I don't against the theory that latest model perform better than the older one as this has been the on going improvement but I saw the number of PAR which is way low ( perhaps than other LeD in the market ? Sorry , if I am wrong here) They should know this for sure and that is why the difference I the latest vs the older version has such that big.

Yes, coralline algae does grow on the PMK sensor, but I just scrape off the sensor with my finger nail every week when I do a water change. I don't see any appreciable degradation in about a 2 week period with regard to the PMK sensor being dirty. I consider it routine maintenance and not really a major downside.

I saw good (not excellent) growth with the 360 lights as you can see in my blog, but for some reason the 360 lights' output does not register well on PAR meters. PUR vs. PAR argument?

machodik
01/04/2016, 11:10 AM
I saw good (not excellent) growth with the 360 lights as you can see in my blog, but for some reason the 360 lights' output does not register well on PAR meters. PUR vs. PAR argument?


I observed Kessil A360WE only good for LPS but never for SPS.

Does any one compare that of Radion or other LED. Just want to know the LED we invested are at least can grow SPS as normally it was suppose to be design of .

Wazzel
01/04/2016, 12:47 PM
I have a Par meter and have only used it twice. If you can get your hands on one to rent or borrow do that instead. The cost does not justify the expense. I rent mine out now instead of it sitting around collecting dust.

Wazzel
01/04/2016, 12:48 PM
I observed Kessil A360WE only good for LPS but never for SPS.

Does any one compare that of Radion or other LED. Just want to know the LED we invested are at least can grow SPS as normally it was suppose to be design of .

I run hydra 52's and they do just fine with SPS and LPS.

reefwiser
01/04/2016, 01:10 PM
You need to one to setup a LED's for sure other wise you can burn SPS corals. Anytime you change your lighting you should go in a check to make sure your levels are ok so you don't mess up the par. Whether you rent or own that is ones own decision.

gus6464
01/04/2016, 01:27 PM
If you do get one the new Apogee SQ-420 is the one to get. The software does error correction on the fly.
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/sq-420-smart-quantum-sensor-usb-output/

Rob Pnuke
01/04/2016, 02:20 PM
Do you have a link to this article? I'd be interested in reading it. I’d be very angry if I spent that kind of money to find out the PAR readings are actually very low.

machodik
01/04/2016, 05:27 PM
I am also very disappointed and upset to learned that the led I spent are actually too weak and I wish to find it out but I don't have any PAR meter to do the experiment by myself . Hope what BRS testing is incorrect but according to the poster , they check with BRS for the intensity they set at the time of experiment and it is confirmed 100%.

To prevent you looking on the whole page as it was 65 page or so, the following is the part they start talking about the par of 360 from 700;

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/04/099de28f567b428bfa0ca19b84ada2ce.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/04/69a4b0851cef76a8446c0f3dc55766fc.jpg

It was posted at Kessil club forum anyway here is the here is the link for said forum;

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2474225

The following is the graph provided st BRS TV and the lower one is from A360 while the higher reading is from AP700.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/04/f81be991a43c3a5b6439d39d397d5434.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/04/f7370801bda947e8910eb9729a98d5f9.jpg


Cheers,


MD

m0nkie
01/04/2016, 05:55 PM
I spent a tons of money and used it twice..

borrow one if you can!

it's nice to have around though.. all the local reefers want to be your friend ;)

machodik
01/04/2016, 08:54 PM
Yes , I wish I can find someone here in Taiwan to lent me theirs too.

alton
01/05/2016, 06:28 AM
Look at the money you have invested and knowing how much lighting plays in keeping it going, yes a PAR meter is a must have just like a calcium test or a Nitrate test. I am fortunate to run our local clubs PAR meter loan out program. It is amazing the stories I get back from those that borrow it from, I need to replace or add to my leds, to I turned them down, to complaints of spot lighting in there tank and they now know why some of there corals are doing great and others not so well

machodik
01/05/2016, 08:29 AM
Good advise , if I can not find someone to lend me their Par meter then I will definitely buy one or perhaps Apex PMK to hook up my apex control .

By the way , I don't know if this sound reasonable , just check with Kessil they told me their A360 don't put weight on PAR as par is not important point but instead something like PUK?

I am confuse with the statement I got from their personnel here in Dicon Taiwan . And really don't know if it is true or not . Any advise ?

Rob Pnuke
01/05/2016, 09:47 AM
Thanks for the info! Much lower numbers then I would of thought.

shermanator
01/05/2016, 11:40 AM
I think a PAR meter is super helpful. Is it needed? Depends on what you are doing. Any custom LEDs, it would be needed. I think they are near essential for moving frags / corals from a prop tank to the DT and QT/acclimation of corals if you don't have the same setup on the QT as the DT. All my systems are T5/LED, but I have different fixtures on various tanks, so it's very helpful to double check lighting across tanks when acclimating corals prior to putting into DT.

And today a decent PAR meter (e.g., Seneye or BioTek Marine USB one) is quite cheap, at least compared to all the money that goes elsewhere in this hobby. I have both a Seneye and BTM PAR meter and don't regret buying either. Not a weekly used item, but very useful indeed.


By the way , I don't know if this sound reasonable , just check with Kessil they told me their A360 don't put weight on PAR as par is not important point but instead something like PUK?

I am confuse with the statement I got from their personnel here in Dicon Taiwan . And really don't know if it is true or not . Any advise ?

They are referring to PUR. Photosynthetically useful radiation. Kessils do have a lot of radiation in the blue/violet range (and that is good) where all PAR meters undervalue the amount of useful light, for what it's worth

I don't see the big deal with the 360 PAR values... one 360 is about 1/3rd of a Kessil 700... is that surprising?

machodik
01/05/2016, 06:32 PM
I think a PAR meter is super helpful. Is it needed? Depends on what you are doing. Any custom LEDs, it would be needed. I think they are near essential for moving frags / corals from a prop tank to the DT and QT/acclimation of corals if you don't have the same setup on the QT as the DT. All my systems are T5/LED, but I have different fixtures on various tanks, so it's very helpful to double check lighting across tanks when acclimating corals prior to putting into DT.



And today a decent PAR meter (e.g., Seneye or BioTek Marine USB one) is quite cheap, at least compared to all the money that goes elsewhere in this hobby. I have both a Seneye and BTM PAR meter and don't regret buying either. Not a weekly used item, but very useful indeed.







They are referring to PUR. Photosynthetically useful radiation. Kessils do have a lot of radiation in the blue/violet range (and that is good) where all PAR meters undervalue the amount of useful light, for what it's worth



I don't see the big deal with the 360 PAR values... one 360 is about 1/3rd of a Kessil 700... is that surprising?


Thanks for the very informative note,

As I have 2 A360 plus 4 T5 ATI bulb, and if you mentioned Kessil is more on PUR and Par meter will undervalued it , so if this is the case the the PAR meter I will be buying will be less useful in my case? Is there anyway to have a meter that can read both Par and Pur? What should be the right value in case of PUR for SPS ? I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that best value for corals on Par is between 50-500nm?

Cheers,


MD

gus6464
01/05/2016, 06:37 PM
I have a Seneye and going to order to the new SQ-420.

shermanator
01/05/2016, 09:26 PM
As I have 2 A360 plus 4 T5 ATI bulb, and if you mentioned Kessil is more on PUR and Par meter will undervalued it , so if this is the case the the PAR meter I will be buying will be less useful in my case?

I think PAR meters are useful, even if they underestimate PAR. After all, no one knows exactly how much PAR is needed for any given coral. What you can find as guidelines (for example in the SPS forum) were obtained based on what people have found worked best (using PAR meters).

Is there anyway to have a meter that can read both Par and Pur? What should be the right value in case of PUR for SPS ? I understand (correct me if I am wrong) that best value for corals on Par is between 50-500nm?

To get PUR you need to know both the spectral output along with the PAR -- the Seneye can do this. I've never seen a listing of optimal or suggested PUR values for any coral. PUR is not used very often because it's difficult to measure (and as stated these PAR/PUR values are guidelines, so PAR is usually close enough to PUR). 50-500 PAR is, of course, a large range and most coral do well within that range. For specifics, your best bet is in the subforms (e.g., SPS keepers forum has a post with suggestions for different species).

machodik
01/06/2016, 12:31 AM
I think PAR meters are useful, even if they underestimate PAR. After all, no one knows exactly how much PAR is needed for any given coral. What you can find as guidelines (for example in the SPS forum) were obtained based on what people have found worked best (using PAR meters).



To get PUR you need to know both the spectral output along with the PAR -- the Seneye can do this. I've never seen a listing of optimal or suggested PUR values for any coral. PUR is not used very often because it's difficult to measure (and as stated these PAR/PUR values are guidelines, so PAR is usually close enough to PUR). 50-500 PAR is, of course, a large range and most coral do well within that range. For specifics, your best bet is in the subforms (e.g., SPS keepers forum has a post with suggestions for different species).

thanks !

if "PAR is usually close enough to PUR" so this means that Par 100 = almost 100 as well in PUR? If so, as what I have posted earlier with regard to BRS comparison between A360 vs AP 700, I can see the par level of A360 range between 50 to 75 nm , so based on these 2 things (par /pur) almost the same so it means A360 then on the low end side of the Par level (50 to 500 nm) for SPS?

I understand AP 700 has other colors than that of blue in A360, I suspect why Kessil put up this AP700 may be because so mcuh people has to combo their Kessil 360/350/160 with T5, and that is why AP 700 got about 100 nm to 400 nm in BRS testing.

slief
01/06/2016, 12:35 AM
Yes, coralline algae does grow on the PMK sensor, but I just scrape off the sensor with my finger nail every week when I do a water change. I don't see any appreciable degradation in about a 2 week period with regard to the PMK sensor being dirty. I consider it routine maintenance and not really a major downside.

I saw good (not excellent) growth with the 360 lights as you can see in my blog, but for some reason the 360 lights' output does not register well on PAR meters. PUR vs. PAR argument?

Kessils are very strong in the 420-460mn spectrum which is where corals get most of their needed (usable) photosynthetic radiation (PUR). That same spectrum is very difficult for the human eye to judge intensity just like it is for the PAR meter to get accurarate PAR readings. As such, while the Kessils don't show well on a PAR meter, it's very misleading because they are much more powerful than the meter will show.

Like you, I get very good growth from all my corals (soft, SPS and LPS) under the Kessils.

machodik
01/08/2016, 05:40 PM
My said 2 kessil A360 and T5 is about 2 feet or 60 cm apart from the tip of my live rocks and my live rocks are about 8 inch or 24 cm heigh from display tank's glass base. at following setting for colors and intensity ;

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/08/e9ac6878c892157b835bbad0179e4659.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/16/01/08/3da53a425fd8924201cc356f31fd71b9.jpg

Because as of the moment , I don't have any equipment to test Par or PUR and yet to find one soon but I just want you guys give me a roughly estimate as to if my above said distance between lights and rocks (corals) is too high or just fine with both color and intensity setting of my Kessil?

Will much appreciated to hearing from you guys , hopefully this said distance is good enough for the lights to provide enough PUR to my SPS and LPS.

Cheers,

MD

machodik
01/09/2016, 06:29 PM
And today a decent PAR meter (e.g., Seneye or BioTek Marine USB one) is quite cheap, at least compared to all the money that goes elsewhere in this hobby. I have both a Seneye and BTM PAR meter and don't regret buying either. Not a weekly used item, but very useful indeed.


I check both seneye and BTM par meter, I think BTM does not have the way as seneye has which is the conversion of PAR to the PUR level?

C3hutson
01/10/2016, 12:46 AM
It's just like everyone is saying: It's really useful a couple times. If I hadn't checked my setup (rented a par meter from LFS) when I moved to metal halides, I wouldn't have know that I had misaligned bulbs in the reflectors that was causing a narrow hotspot in a weird spot under the reflector and terrible spread. Par meter told me something wasn't right, I researched the issue and fixed it, then was able to check that the solution worked.

Try and find one to borrow or rent. Talk to any local reef club to see if they have one available to rent to members. It's not something you will need terribly often unless you are switching your lighting around a lot.

machodik
01/10/2016, 08:08 AM
Thanks , but here in my country , Taiwan, I yet to find out if there is any one willing to lent me the Par meter.

That's exactly what I wish to know the different between seneye from BTM par meter, as I find out the amount is not much high and willing to invest for conveniency and it will be an issue I case when I barrow it from someone else and so happened that the unit break down then I have to find a replacement for them afterwards.

Can anyone give me an advise between seneye vs BTM? I have Kessil and T5 I need some thing that also provide PUR reading too. Seneye has but if BTM also can then I think I have wide option.

Sorry , this new toy is too new for me and I don't have much idea which is best to choose from and more stable and efficient and easy to use .

Cheers,

MD

shermanator
01/10/2016, 09:44 AM
The PAR numbers that comes from the BTM and Seneye are very close (well within the error of the reading and changes based on surface flow).

Both have their own advantages:

- The BTM is much easier to spot check the tank, especially with the optional "wand". The Seneye is a pain to move around and hold while getting readings.

- The Seneye has some sort of spectrometer. I am guessing it's accurate? I'll say it's close to the theoretical LED spectra for my BML lights and it's also close to T5 spectra that have been published when looking at T5 lights. Knowing the spectrum enables the Seneye to calculate PUR. How useful is PUR is another question... there are reference values for PAR and plenty of top reefers have provided PAR maps for their tanks. PUR? Nope. So who knows what to do with that number, but it will be a higher than PAR if you are using light in the 400-450 range.

- The Seneye has all sorts of other features that duplicate what is found in an Apex setup (which I also have) but still useful to me. I usually have the Seneye in a QT tank to measure ammonia. I'm considering getting another Seneye to help with QT via TTM... These other features require a monthly disc for ~$10/month. But the PAR meter and spectrometer work without problem without the monthly fee.

Hope that is helpful. If you are going to do a lot of in-tank PAR readings, I would get the BTM because it's easier to use with the wand. If you care about PUR or want the other features of the Seneye, it's a great deal for everything that it does. Overall, we are not talking about a lot of money compared to how much $$$ most of us have invested in other equipment and livestock. If all is going well you won't use a PAR meter much at all, but it's super nice to have... For example, I keep meaning to see about using the Seneye spectrum meter to look at when it's time to change T5 bulbs -- it should work well for that and could save money knowing if I can get another 1-2 months from a bulb (assuming PAR and spectrum are maintained).

Also... For what it's worth, you seem to be overly concerned about your Kessil lights. Those numbers from BRS are on the sandbed, right? So that is not bad... Plenty of people have super nice tanks and use Kassil's -- I could be wrong, but I think silef is still using Kessils and his tank is amazing.

machodik
01/10/2016, 04:37 PM
Thanks Shermanator,

That is a very details info, just right for what I need to know between the two.

Actually , I like the seneye for the conversion plus other function it provided but same as you I think the wand of BTM is cool and it's simplicity by connecting the USB to my computer plus the 15 ft wire is something attractive to me .

I understand most of the reefer use PAR as their guidelines on the right spot for them to place different corals on its respective places and also knowing when they are about to change their bulb like T5 or adjust the intensity of the LED lights (as it goes dimmer in due time ), but my concern is that if I just base on the PAR and disregard the PUR , how can I know exactly the right spot for my corals to stick to? As we know the Par undervalue the Kessil blue lights.

I have my lights hanging about 27cm above the water surface and my live rocks ( which will be where my corals stay ) is about another 30 cm + deep from water surface . So if the value of Par at the said deep then say is between 20-50 nm , I don't know if this is the right reading or not ? That is really confusing me .


By the way , yes agreed with you that Scott has the nice corals with the Kessil lights and I have no doubt with my Kessil but just wanted to find the right spot for my corals since I have so much corals die off and I try to rule out any possible causes which as of now I think my lightning may be play some thing in this regard not unless I am definitely sure that the location or spot where my coral sit is exactly right.


Cheers,

MD

WilRams
01/10/2016, 05:02 PM
My local club has one which I borrowed before. The line is long so it takes awhile to get it. I found it vey useful ad plan on getting one since I recently sold all my tanks and am setting up different ones. Just need to spot them on sale again!

mussel and hate
01/11/2016, 11:37 AM
I've kept a reef tank for over 25 years without using a PAR meter. In that time I've employed T12, T8, T5, MH, LED and natural sunlight. No problems so far.

I'm going to say no.

C3hutson
01/11/2016, 12:49 PM
I've kept a reef tank for over 25 years without using a PAR meter. In that time I've employed T12, T8, T5, MH, LED and natural sunlight. No problems so far.

I'm going to say no.

What has been your favorite lighting?

mussel and hate
01/13/2016, 01:05 AM
My favorite are my DIY LEDs.

Prior to that I loved my MH, but I lived in a studio warehouse at the time with 18' ceilings and didn't notice the heat. I can't say the MH was in any way superior to T5s but for the simplicity of a single bulb pendant.

minus9
01/13/2016, 02:35 AM
I bought the Seneye Reef w/wifi server (I only have apple computers) and I like it a lot. Sure, it has duplicate features as my apex, but I don't mind redundancy when it comes to a small system. The PAR meter is good, but having a PUR reading is more relevant to me. I have two Kessil 160's over my 22g nano and I'm peaking at 65% right now and slowly increasing the intensity. I mostly have sps and a few lps, so it's nice to have a PAR/PUR reading in order to place coral in the sweet spot(s). Is it a must to have a PAR meter, no, but it's a very helpful tool as stated above.
Kessil's are quite powerful, I was getting readings above 200 at 12" under one side and near 260 in between both lights at 12". I still haven't had time to "map" my tank, but I will soon.
Just my two pennies.

machodik
01/13/2016, 02:54 AM
I bought the Seneye Reef w/wifi server (I only have apple computers) and I like it a lot. Sure, it has duplicate features as my apex, but I don't mind redundancy when it comes to a small system. The PAR meter is good, but having a PUR reading is more relevant to me. I have two Kessil 160's over my 22g nano and I'm peaking at 65% right now and slowly increasing the intensity. I mostly have sps and a few lps, so it's nice to have a PAR/PUR reading in order to place coral in the sweet spot(s). Is it a must to have a PAR meter, no, but it's a very helpful tool as stated above.
Kessil's are quite powerful, I was getting readings above 200 at 12" under one side and near 260 in between both lights at 12". I still haven't had time to "map" my tank, but I will soon.
Just my two pennies.


Your par reading of your Kessil be it one side or born side at 12" , is the 12" below water surface or from light base?

Is that number Par or PUR?


Cheers,

MD

minus9
01/13/2016, 12:02 PM
12" below water and with the lights at about 7" or so above the water. The PUR readings are in %'s, so it represents the % of usable light. As notated in the BRS video, when you turn down the spectrum/color of the kessil's, the PUR % increases. I'm ramping up from 0% to 35% color at the peak (for 6hrs) then back down to 0%. My average PUR reading throughout the day is near 80%. Also, I haven't used any correction in my PAR readings, so add about 10% to the PAR #'s. I have a small tank, so I have to be selective with which coral and where I place them.

coreyc87
01/24/2016, 03:08 PM
I have a Par meter and have only used it twice. If you can get your hands on one to rent or borrow do that instead. The cost does not justify the expense. I rent mine out now instead of it sitting around collecting dust.
Hey wazzel, where are you located and what do you charge to rent yours out? I just bought some ocean revive T247's and these things are bright as hell. No clue what to set them at and there a fairly new design so there isn't a ton of info out there on them.

ReefRealEstate
03/06/2016, 04:01 AM
Regarding the Apex PAR metre reading, does it just stay in one place? Looks like its locked in or do you move the cord and that rock around with it? Is it worth buying the apex PMK reader (I will have a Apex Gold anyway when the tank is set up) vs say a Apogee Quantum Light Par Meter MQ 200. Prob a dumb question

d2mini
03/06/2016, 07:31 AM
Been in this hobby for years, several tanks, never owned a par meter.

yinbgjn
03/06/2016, 07:59 AM
I saw apex come up a PAK system , I wonder how many of you have it and how it helpful for you in locating the best spot for your various species of coral? http://s.coop/1xsny http://s.coop/1xslc
http://s.coop/1xsld