Bio-spira.. Worth it? Cycling tips

[michael43]

Going to be starting my cycle with live sand and rock. Was going to get some bio-spira. Good product? Should I just cycle naturally with the sand and rock only? I've read to add pure ammonia but that seems pretty scary..

[avoidtheboyd]

I've also been thinking of setting up a nano with bio spire to see if it really works. Along with adding pure ammonia you could also feed the tank for a few days until you see a spike in ammonia or add a shrimp to let decay for a few days.

[cymen]

I am using it on my 20g cycle (plus sump). I'm about 2 weeks in. It basically jumped me straight to the part of the cycle where the nitrite consuming bacteria are increasing in population to consume nitrites. 2 weeks in and my nitrites are around ~0.05 to ~0.2 ppm and my nitrates are high (maybe ~20 ppm). I am also getting big diatom blooms on rocks and sand (forgot to turn the light timer circuit off yesterday and came home to quite a growth).

So I think it works but it isn't a miracle. As in, don't put fish in but it can accelerate the cycle. I got the big 8.45oz container on Amazon as it wasn't very expensive. It was fresh -- the expiration on the bottom was 04/2017.

I would use Bio-Spira + Ammonia (either find a clean pure local source or get Dr Tim's Ammonium Chloride). I think that combination with a good test kit can result in quick cycle with minimum build up of nutrients. I say this because the other route of putting in some fish food every day is probably going to result in more nutrients which either need water changes or will feed nuisance algae. I'm sure there will still be some algae just less with a direct ammonia cycle.

Footnote on Ammonium Chloride: some ammonia tests can't read it as well or at all supposedly. So keep that in mind. I think the Red Sea kit I'm using can but YMMV. Also, it doesn't have a strong odor so if you have people sensitive to ammonia in your household, it may be more pleasant for them (and you)!

[CStrickland]

Ammonia is what the bacteria process, you can add it straight or let a piece of meaty food decay to produce it. Either way.

Biospira is some of the bacteria that should already be on your live rock and sand. If you bought "live sand" it most likely is sand with biospira poured in the bag. I don't see any need to add more if you have live rock and sand, whereas if you start with no bacteria (dry mined rock and dry sand) I can see biospira being faster than waiting for bacteria to land in your tank from the environment.

If you don't have the sand yet, consider using dry. There'll be plenty of life in your rocks, dry sand is much cheaper, you can rinse it well so your tank won't be as dusty, and the preserved bacteria that comes on it is kind've a crap-shoot whether it will be alive and even if it is, it still is not as many kinds as the rock already has.

[bertoni]

I have been skeptical about bacteria products for a long time. I haven't seen any reason to believe that BioSpira adds anything of value, especially when the tank has a bit of real live rock in it. Personally, I wouldn't bother. The reports we read here on its effectiveness are highly variable, and consistent with a placebo.

[cymen]

I have been skeptical about bacteria products for a long time. I haven't seen any reason to believe that BioSpira adds anything of value, especially when the tank has a bit of real live rock in it. Personally, I wouldn't bother. The reports we read here on its effectiveness are highly variable, and consistent with a placebo.

For me, I used dead rock (made it myself) and "live sand" that was fairly old (CaribSea Fuji Pink but sat in my cupboard for 6+ months). Based on my testing, I think Bio-Spira cut about 2 weeks of the cycle. Is it worth it? Really depends. For me, $14 for 2 weeks isn't bad. But waiting for the nitrite-consuming bacteria to scale up takes a while and it doesn't seem to skip that so it still takes time. So it really depends on how much you value 2 weeks of waiting.

[Jone]

I put two Bio spira and one Dr tims to seed my system (125gal) in the beginning for bacterial diversity,,with dry Marco rock,dry sand,,dosed pure ammonia for two monthes then a CUC team...that was the only bacteria in the tank and my system has grown bigger since that two years ago (195gal total),,,actually dosed Seachem salinity recently(small bottle over 3 days)and my cyano is gone (for now),,,,soooooooo,,Im in a little different postition to say is it Placebo in a bottle...

[tmz]

I don't personally see a need for or clear record of benefit for bottled bacterial products;so I don't use them.

[lucky_snapper]

I don't personally see a need for or clear record of benefit for bottled bacterial products;so I don't use them.

Actually I use it every time I start a new system as it just jump starts the cycle. If you try and wait for it to happen "naturally" then it will take forever.. You can have a tank ready in a few weeks instead of months.

[tmz]

It takes weeks not months for the nitrogen cycle ,IME . If you like it I suppose it won't do much if any harm depending on what's actually in the particular type
used. Which one are you using and what's in it?

[CStrickland]

I think that people who use at least some live rock to set up a new tank have totally different experiences from people who use dead rock that is mined from the ground with no dead stuff or bacteria on it, like Marco rock; or diy rock. If one used exclusively the "sterile" types of rock and sand, I would be surprised if the tank cycled in a few weeks.

I would not apply that reasoning to OP's tank, since they are using live rock. In this case, the biospira seems like a poorer, redundant addition. I would expect more, diverser, healthier (non-preserved) biofiltration in a few pounds of live rock than a whole bottle of biospira. Even assuming biospira works, whats the point if you've got good live rock?

[bertoni]

For me, I used dead rock (made it myself) and "live sand" that was fairly old (CaribSea Fuji Pink but sat in my cupboard for 6+ months). Based on my testing, I think Bio-Spira cut about 2 weeks of the cycle.
Well, we don't know how long the cycling process would take in the absence of the additive. Someone would need to do a controlled study of a reasonable population size to tell us what's happening. Could such products reduce the time required to get to zero ammonia. Maybe. Is there evidence that they work. No.

[cymen]

Well, we don't know how long the cycling process would take in the absence of the additive. Someone would need to do a controlled study of a reasonable population size to tell us what's happening. Could such products reduce the time required to get to zero ammonia. Maybe. Is there evidence that they work. No.

Definitely agree. I don't have a lab and I'm not doing a scientific study. However, going from "not yet processing ammonia" to "processing ammonia to nitrite" efficiently in a day or so leads me to make a reasonable assumption that the bottle saved some time. I never got an ammonia spike. I'll take my empirical evidence over conjecture that it does nothing. But I agree just how much it does is subject for debate. It would be great to see some scientific testing on these products including testing it against the products recommended for seeding sanitation fields (that some hobbyists have used in aquariums).

[Mark9]

Using Bio-Spira will definitely shorten your cycle time.
Used it many times, it works as advertised, never had an issue.
Just make sure you go slow in adding livestock.
And anyone who hasn't used it should really refrain from commenting on whether it works or not as that's conjecture.

[rockdrummer1226]

Definitely agree. I don't have a lab and I'm not doing a scientific study. However, going from "not yet processing ammonia" to "processing ammonia to nitrite" efficiently in a day or so leads me to make a reasonable assumption that the bottle saved some time. I never got an ammonia spike. I'll take my empirical evidence over conjecture that it does nothing. But I agree just how much it does is subject for debate. It would be great to see some scientific testing on these products including testing it against the products recommended for seeding sanitation fields (that some hobbyists have used in aquariums).

Piggy backing on this^^

It will surely speed up cycle time. Years ago it used to portray that it would make the tank fish safe instantly. THIS IS NOT TRUE. There is still a waiting period for the cycle but it will probably shorten it by a couple of weeks. I'd say add it if you want to cycle faster as it will help but do not put fish in until you have confirmed the completion of the cycle. I dosed ammonia a couple times after the initial dose was depleted to confirm it would all be processed in a day.

[tmz]

I have used a number of different bacterial additives over the years without observing any significant difference in cycling time .Given the marketing hype as well as unknown contents and viability of the bacteria used in many if not all of them I prefer to allow ubiquitous indigenous bacteria to settle in and do the job; they always do IME and can be sped along with a bit of seeding material and some food .
If one chooses to use bactrerial additives , I would encourage them to find out somehow what's acutally in the stuff that's being put in the tank ;most manufacturer's won't tell. Some may use heterotrophic denitrifiers which will take ammonia directly and can impede the development of the chemoautotrphic ammonia oxidizers, for example.

[Brieninsac]

As you are learning there are a wide variety of opinions on cycling new tanks. This what I did and it worked for me.

My new tank was started out it with 40 lbs. of live sand, 77 lbs. of reefrock 2.1 and a bottle of Bio-spira. One week after running the tank with bio-spira I added 2 clown fish. I did weekly 20% water changes for the first two months. My water parameters were fine the entire time and I never lost a fish.

My two additional fish, a firefish and Royal gramma both went through my QT before going into my DT.

[nmotz]

Having used BioSpira and other additives for my tanks, all I can do is share my experience. Is that the same as a controlled, scientific study? Well, obviously not, but everything that we know about anything was at one point untested. I think we can at least agree on that.

I've heard enough people say (and can confirm it by my own experience) that the bacteria additives provide SOMETHING that does shorten the cycle in some way. How well it does that, exactly how long the tank takes to cycle, etc, is as dependent on the individual set-up as every other question we may have about reef tanks.

Having said that, I will agree with others that there is NO product available that will allow you to introduce a ton of fish to a brand new aquarium all in the same day. Some of the marketing claims over the years do indicate that this is possible. I disagree.

BUT, if using dry rock only, I do agree that this BioSpira will decrease the cycle time significantly from weeks to a few days. I set up my friends tank and had a few live specimens in it the same day (small inverts only) using bio bacteria, never could detect any ammonia. Same with my own 5G nano tank. I had 5-6 small shrimps and crabs in brand new tank water with brand new dry sand and marinepure spheres. Added bio bacteria and never saw ammonia. Didn't lose anything.

Now I'm certain it could be argued that the bio bacteria wasn't responsible for all of that. Make of that what you will. But I do know that the usual guidance that it takes 2-4 wks to cycle a tank was not applicable in my case. My aquarium, and my friend's too were both ready to use as soon as I dosed them with bio-bacteria.

Just sharing some thoughts, not trying to make anyone mad, I swear!

[tmz]

FYI, The manufacturer's site for Instant Ocean Nitro Spira now lists:

Nitrocococcus, a nitrite oxidizer usually found in very high saline environments like evaporation ponds ,the Dead Sea and the Great Salt Lake.

Nitrosommonas ,an ammonia oxidizer

nitrospira, a nitrite oxidizer

among the contents.

Those at least seem to be the right types of bacteria for a nitrogen cycle if they are viable;,though; they are ubiquitous and will grow without additions.

[tmz]

Anecdotal experiences are important and certainly don't make me mad. I'm glad you shared it. On the other hand buy it to try it or don't question it types of posts are shallow and annoying.

[bertoni]

Using Bio-Spira will definitely shorten your cycle time.
Used it many times, it works as advertised, never had an issue.
Just make sure you go slow in adding livestock.
And anyone who hasn't used it should really refrain from commenting on whether it works or not as that's conjecture.
Lots of other people have used it, too, and reported that it hasn't worked. And we're all free to comment. Just because I'm not willing to spend money on a product that I don't think does much doesn't mean I'm not free to speak.

[bertoni]

I set up my friends tank and had a few live specimens in it the same day (small inverts only) using bio bacteria, never could detect any ammonia. Same with my own 5G nano tank. I had 5-6 small shrimps and crabs in brand new tank water with brand new dry sand and marinepure spheres.
If the dry rock was sufficiently free of debris, I personally would expect that a few small shrimps and crabs would be fine with or without added bacteria simply because the rate at which they produce ammonia is so low that the bacteria will arrive before any spike could occur.

[Mark9]

Lots of other people have used it, too, and reported that it hasn't worked. And we're all free to comment. Just because I'm not willing to spend money on a product that I don't think does much doesn't mean I'm not free to speak.

Having actually used the product, your opinion below is not consistent with my results.

I have been skeptical about bacteria products for a long time. I haven't seen any reason to believe that BioSpira adds anything of value, especially when the tank has a bit of real live rock in it. Personally, I wouldn't bother. The reports we read here on its effectiveness are highly variable, and consistent with a placebo.

[tmz]

Using Bio-Spira will definitely shorten your cycle time.
Used it many times, it works as advertised, never had an issue.
Just make sure you go slow in adding livestock.
And anyone who hasn't used it should really refrain from commenting on whether it works or not as that's conjecture.


Conjecture means : "predicting from incomplete or uncertain guesswork" .

Using Bio-Spira will definitely shorten your cycle time.

is a good example of shallow conjectural opinion without facts based soley on a limited interpretation of anecdotal observation in your aquarium . Broad extrapolation to what it will do in my tank and others is feckless. Do you sell this stuff?

And anyone who hasn't used it should really refrain from commenting on whether it works or not as that's conjecture



In other words. "Buy it to try it "because I said so and others inclined to examine it further should be quiet uniti they buy it and put it in there aquarium.

Do you sell this stuff?

I disagree . Why it may work or not and alternatives are of interest and warrant discussion to help folks form informed opinions and make informed decisions before buying any additive and dumping it into an aquarium . Shallow anecdotal observations without any detail beyond "it works as advertised" are very limited as they vary from some reporting effects on cycling time and other's not so much;some even with negative consequences and contra indications vs other concoctions. If you take the time to read about it there are many discussions with mixed observations regarding the use of a plethora of bacterial additives.

[scuzy]

i've used it and it shorten my cycling in 3 tanks now. so i will continue using it to help with the cycling process.

[Mark9]

Good lord Tom, give it a break.
I've used it, it worked for me multiple times.
Then you ask if I sell it.
Like what's the point, intimidation? Discredit?
If you have a hard time believing it works, fine. Try it then.

[tmz]

Try saying something useful instead of trying to limit the discussion and repeating the same thing over and over without any more substance. It sounded like a sales pitch. So; do you sell it ? You used it you like it ;fine., That says little about what it does for others or their tanks or how it does it or whether there may be harmful effects. I have no interest in initimidating you ;there is no need to do so. Others question it and should not be dismissed until they buy it and try it or be quiet based on your conjecture is the point. Others use it and like it and post their preference and that's more than welcome even more so when details are shared. Some don't like to use bacterial products and prefer to let tanks develop indigenous viable bacterial populations and that's fine too. You have no idea what I believe or what I've tried and it really doesn't matter.

[bertoni]

Having actually used the product, your opinion below is not consistent with my results.
You have no way of knowing what the results would be without the Bio-Spira. That's just your opinion.

[CStrickland]

Starting to sound like a DSB v. BB thread up in here
:rollface::rollface:

[bertoni]

Yes, that's an issue. The basic problem is the difficulty of getting data and the ease of changing a product, or at least, a product's label, so we all have to guess.

[acebigalowe]

Bio spira... though I don't use much now. Nothing but the truth.

[jason2459]

Starting to sound like a DSB v. BB thread up in here
:rollface::rollface:

Well, in this case it's 1 million bacteria being sold vs. 1 googleplex of bacteria living all around and in us for free.

[Mark9]

Sorry for trying to keep the thread on-topic.
The OP asked "Bio-spira.. Worth it?"
Was for me, multiple times, so I answered, yes.
But thanks for attacking me for saying it worked in my tanks.
Does every thread need to have a mod jump in and start a "discussion"?

[tmz]

:lol::lol:

So now moderators shouldn't post?

How is any of that on topic? To me it's just another effort to stifle discussion which seems to be habitual:

To wit, from your post :And anyone who hasn't used it should really refrain from commenting on whether it works or not .

It also grossly misrepresents my position which is clearly and consistently stated in my posts. Folks who choose to use it are welcome to report their observations;anecdotal information is helpful; a broad extrapolations to everyone's tank is feckless. There is no personal attack in any of my posts.

[Dmorty217]

Going to be starting my cycle with live sand and rock. Was going to get some bio-spira. Good product? Should I just cycle naturally with the sand and rock only? I've read to add pure ammonia but that seems pretty scary..

I would suggest Startsmart made by TLC for biological bacteria. Stuff is better than bio spira IMO. Have used it with great results. I will say that no matter what product your using, the effectiveness of it will vary depending on how "old" the product is. Dr Tims ammonia is what I would suggest over using pure ammonia since some ammonia will have surficants in it.

[tmz]

How is it better? What's in it that's different?

[Brieninsac]

Considering the OP hasn't posted since his original question, this might be a moot point.

But adding Bio-spira will do no harm to your system if it helps put your mind at ease.

[tmz]

How do you know that? Are there any contra indications for other supplements which may be in use? It probably won't do harm in most applications based on most of the anecdotal reports and the bacteria listed by the manufacturer but I'm not certain of that in every tank.

[tylersarah]

I've used Bio Spira to set up quarantine tanks many times. 20 gallon tank, fresh saltwater, sponge filter, heater, powerhead & Bio Spira. I'm confident it works for a small bio-load and when feeding sparingly. Once I added a $250 fish into that mix and as always tested NH4 with 2 kits and nitrite with Salifert and never saw a registered nitrogen cycle.

[bertoni]

But thanks for attacking me for saying it worked in my tanks.
Does every thread need to have a mod jump in and start a "discussion"?
I don't think anyone has attacked you. We have disagreed with you.

[Dmorty217]

How is it better? What's in it that's different?

I'm not sure what is different about it but when I used the Startsmart it cycled the tank in 5 days as opposed to using it everyday for 2 weeks to cycle a tank like I had previously done with the bio spira. That's just my experience, not trying to say bio spira doesn't work, it does just not as quickly as the Startsmart did.

[Mark9]

Obviously TMZ has an issue with Bio-Spira and wants his opinions known, and for some reason disagrees with people who have used it with no issues.
I'm done with this thread.

[tmz]

You are again misrepresenting my position and personalizing. Stop. Just read the posts.

Asking questions isn't disagreement;just probing for information to improve the depth of the discussion.

[Dmorty217]

Funny to see the things people get upset about

[tmz]

I'm not sure what is different about it but when I used the Startsmart it cycled the tank in 5 days as opposed to using it everyday for 2 weeks to cycle a tank like I had previously done with the bio spira. That's just my experience, not trying to say bio spira doesn't work, it does just not as quickly as the Startsmart did.

Thanks for the calcification. In reading through some stuff it seems some issues with refrigeration emerged for bio spira products early on . Not sure whether shelf life might be an ongoing issue for some products and not others.

Some products I've tried in quarantine tanks seem to be based on heterotrophic bacteria and/organic carbon, a concern in a reef tank given the potential limitng effect on nitrosommonas via competition for ammonia and or trouble with H2S( hydrogen sulfide) if those organics seep into anoxic areas.

My continuing concern with dosing bacterial supplements to start or maintain a reef tank is a strong preference to avoid adding unknown organic materials to a system vs a reliance on a naturally occurring microbial balance. For niche applications I might use one or the other if I needed to be in a hurry and hope it worked.

[tmz]

I've used Bio Spira to set up quarantine tanks many times. 20 gallon tank, fresh saltwater, sponge filter, heater, powerhead & Bio Spira. I'm confident it works for a small bio-load and when feeding sparingly. Once I added a $250 fish into that mix and as always tested NH4 with 2 kits and nitrite with Salifert and never saw a registered nitrogen cycle.

Thanks for the report.

I might use it if I had a need for a quick qt tank. My practice is to qt and treat new specimens via tank transfer so ammonia isn't a concern with a 100% water change every 72 hours as is the case with that method. I also keep seeded material in the sump incase I need it.

Do you know if it's safe to use with other water treatments like ammonia detoxifiers ,dechlorinators, "stress coat "concoctions, medications et alia?

What kind of fish was the $250 baby.

[CStrickland]

Re: shelf life, the first iteration of biospira required refrigeration, and I think it degraded more quickly. There was a publicized change to the formula, since which it is shelf stable. I think it's good for a year, after that the deterioration begins (this is in terms of normal expiry dates where it is purportedly "good as new" for a year and less so after that, within some range of predictability.)

As far as interactions, I haven't seen anything in the literature for either the water conditioners or Biospira. The BRS recommendation for setting up a reef tank is as follows: dry rock, dry sand, tap water, salt, dechlorinator, biospira; wait 24 hours and add a single fish; then another every week or so after; add coral after a month or so. I certainly wouldn't do it like that, but I do respect the experience of a company with as good a reputation as BRS, I give their opinion some weight. Especially since they don't sell fish, so they don't directly benefit from people killing "cycle fish" in the manner of an LFS.

[tmz]

Thanks for the information. BRS may or may not have it right for some I use several of their their products .While they don't sell fish ;they do sell Bio spira ; dry rock and dry sand so there is a commercial interest in all of that fro better or worse.

[Aethro]

It seems Bio-spira and tetra safe start are almost the same if not the same. safe start is 7$ at Walmart and even cheaper online, both made in Germany and packaged by united pet group the only difference in the bottle is color of the plastic and there is a stopper in the tetra version. I've had nothing but good results in my tests prehaps by my method of adding it.

I started the 29gtank with 30lbs bleach cured deadrock, 30lbs aragonite, a 10g sump with 5" DSB, an empty refugium (cheato on the way) with 6lbs figi mud covered with 5lbs gravel, running through a poly filter between the last baffle, and a bag of chemi-pure blue.

I then generously fed the fish less tank and waited a couple days, at that point I added one 3.4oz bottle of bio-spira and waited a couple more days. I then added one fish and another half bottle of bio-spira, and waited a few more days, all readings have stayed near zero, except nitrates which went up to about 20ppm. at the one week mark I added one more fish waited two more days, did a 30% water change, and added the other half bottle of bio-spira.

keep in mind you really cant OD the stuff so adding more when adding additional bio load and more if ammonia or nitrates register might be a key to success with these products, and I'm sure potency varies with shelf life. I'll defiantly keep using it, probably safe start with water changes and when I change out filter media due to its lower cost.

[ClownReef®]

This is my experience with Bio Spira:

Thursday, February 4th
Tank was filled, water was added. Base rock.
-I used RO/DI water at 0 TDS
-Instant Ocean Salt
-Marco Rocks dried rock
-Live sand (40#)

Friday, February 5th
Raw shrimp was added to sump
-Three pieces in a mesh bag

Saturday, February 6th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.50ppm
Nitrite 0.0ppm

Monday, February 8th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia Between 0.50 and 1.0 PPM
Nitrite 0.0 ppm

Wednesday, February 10th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 1.0 and 2.0
Nitrite 0.0

Saturday, February 13th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 2.0 and 4.0
Nitrite between 0.0 and 0.25

Monday February 15th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia is between 1.0 and 2.0
Nitrite is 0.50
Nitrate 0.0

*BIOSPIRA added*

Tuesday February 16th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia is between 2.0 and 4.0
Nitrite is between 2.0 and 5.0
Nitrate is 40

Wednesday February 17th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite over 5.0
Nitrate between 80 and 160

Thursday February 18th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 0.25 and 0.0
Nitrite over 5.0
Nitrate 80

The tank is going crazy. Does it work as advertised? NO.

Does it work to accelerate the process? ABSOLUTELY.

[jason2459]

This is my experience with Bio Spira:

Thursday, February 4th
Tank was filled, water was added. Base rock.
-I used RO/DI water at 0 TDS
-Instant Ocean Salt
-Marco Rocks dried rock
-Live sand (40#)

Friday, February 5th
Raw shrimp was added to sump
-Three pieces in a mesh bag

Saturday, February 6th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.50ppm
Nitrite 0.0ppm

Monday, February 8th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia Between 0.50 and 1.0 PPM
Nitrite 0.0 ppm

Wednesday, February 10th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 1.0 and 2.0
Nitrite 0.0

Saturday, February 13th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 2.0 and 4.0
Nitrite between 0.0 and 0.25

Monday February 15th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia is between 1.0 and 2.0
Nitrite is 0.50
Nitrate 0.0

*BIOSPIRA added*

Tuesday February 16th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia is between 2.0 and 4.0
Nitrite is between 2.0 and 5.0
Nitrate is 40

Wednesday February 17th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia 0.5
Nitrite over 5.0
Nitrate between 80 and 160

Thursday February 18th
Salinity 1.025
Ammonia between 0.25 and 0.0
Nitrite over 5.0
Nitrate 80

The tank is going crazy. Does it work as advertised? NO.

Does it work to accelerate the process? ABSOLUTELY.



Unfortunately, you'll never know for sure but it looks like From Monday to Tuesday there was a spike in Ammonia and Nitrite and I would expect a rise starting in Nitrates as well. That was almost 2 weeks into it and I've had tanks start processing nitrite with out anything added in that time frame. IMO, It's entirely possible that could have happened with out the added bacteria.

[steallife904]

when do you add this stuff? Do you add it day 1 when you put water in the tank or let the tank run for say a week then dump in? At what point in the cycle do you add?

Have a friend who is about to setup a tank and has a bottle, been a long time since I did a cycle and I do not remember when its best to add, I would think let it run a few days at least then dump???

[Brieninsac]

when do you add this stuff? Do you add it day 1 when you put water in the tank or let the tank run for say a week then dump in? At what point in the cycle do you add?



Have a friend who is about to setup a tank and has a bottle, been a long time since I did a cycle and I do not remember when its best to add, I would think let it run a few days at least then dump???


I let my tank run a few days before adding it to the tank.

[bertoni]

I agree that there's nothing particularly revealing about those numbers.

[scuzy]

I know when i add it my ammonia goes from unsafe to safe levels and the tank gets to 0 faster than letting it naturally cycle.

[Geissijs]

Just my 2 cents! I recently upgraded my tank from 10g to 29g out of necessity, the 10 was leaking. I used the same rock from the 10, but I added sand and more live rock that I got from a local reefer. I had to make the transition all in one day. I added it at the end of the transfer and all of my inhabitants seem to be doing ok. Its been a week since and I have had no signs of anything negative in my daily water testing.

[ClownReef®]

...and my cycle is done. 17 days :)!

[jason2459]

Just looked back on my tank journal

July 25th 2009 filled the tank for first time after the rebuild

Aug 1st ammonia hit and stayed at 0.

Aug. 5th nitrite hit and stayed at 0

So, around 10ish days. I started with dead rock, dry dolomite substrate, and a couple pieces of "live rock". Basically rock that was sitting in a bin of water at an LFS. No other bacterial supplementation besides air and surface area.

[bertoni]

17 days isn't all that good, as others have noted. Depending on what goes into the system, and the approach that's taken, zero days can be fine. With live rock or a large tank (little or no organic debris) with clean dead rock and a very small fish load, it's possible never to see a spike.

[ClownReef®]

More raw shrimp is whats going in. Ill gauge how the system holds then. This system was started with dead rock "live sand", and raw shrimp.

Bio Spira works. Not as advertised but it does work.

[bertoni]

Bio Spira works. Not as advertised but it does work.
How do you know that? Your numbers are not all that great.

[JaihWill]

I've used it to start my cycle several times, definitely seems to work

[ClownReef®]

How do you know that? Your numbers are not all that great.

My numbers aren't "all that great"?

I didn't know there was a cycle greatness rating system... Weird.

Because Ive cycled before with NOTHING but uncured rock.. and it takes way longer that 17 days. This isn't my first system. Ive been doing this for 15 years. In the same token people used to buy fiji blue devils to cycle, additives like Bio Spira seem to do the trick. Again, If i threw in fish 10 minutes after adding the liquid on a brand new system their gills would probably melt.

Ok, maybe to your standards it doesn't work. It does help.

[jason2459]

My numbers aren't "all that great"?

I didn't know there was a cycle greatness rating system... Weird.
....

They don't show anything that a system that didn't use bacteria in a bottle supplement couldn't do.

[bertoni]

Ok, maybe to your standards it doesn't work. It does help.
How do you know that it helps? Lots of people have been using these products for years, with very inconsistent results.

[ClownReef®]

..Because It helped me? There's really no rebuttal here.

Ok, how about this so you can stop beating a dead horse:

(clears throat)

HEY EVERYONE! BIO SPIRA WORKED FOR ME...BUT...IT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK FOR YOU!!!! Actually, it has the same chances of working for you than NOT WORKING AT ALL!! It works, or may not work, 50% of the time!! thats 50% more of it working than not working whatsoever!!

Better?

Jesus...

[jason2459]

..Because It helped me? There's really no rebuttal here.

...

You are in the wrong forum section to think anecdotal evidence trumps scientific facts.

[ClownReef®]

Unless you have physical, well documented data that it DOESNT work.. I guess we are on the same boat.

[jason2459]

I have provided evidence bacteria in a bottle is not needed to finish the initial ammonia and nitrite processing cycle in under 14 days.

[ClownReef®]

Its like saying "6 minute abs works just as well at 7 minute abs". LOL

[jason2459]

Its like saying "6 minute abs works just as well at 7 minute abs". LOL
Not quite the argument here but that is funny.

[ClownReef®]

...and I have provided evidence bacteria in a bottle helps to speed up the initial ammonia and nitrite processing cycle in under 18 days.

There.

[tmz]

Unless you have physical, well documented data that it DOESNT work.. I guess we are on the same boat.

Ah the classic "argument from ignorance"


"..Argument from ignorance (Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance stands for "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
1.true
2.false
3.unknown between true or false
4.being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof..."

The onus to prove a product definitely works as asserted earlier by another poster lies with the proponent. I think those of us who question it's use are choosing number 3;it is unknown to be true or false and there has been insufficient investigation . It could be known eventually , though, if manufacturer's selling the product provided data .

[CStrickland]

I have provided evidence bacteria in a bottle is not needed to finish the initial ammonia and nitrite processing cycle in under 14 days.

[if the tanks seeded with live rock]

[jason2459]

[if the tanks seeded with live rock]
I don't believe I hid that and made sure to point that out. I have my entire reefing adventure since 2009 documenting my rebuild and recovery from a major river flood in on this site and particularly in a single thread I keep updated.

I would have to look for my mantis tank setup which I know I used purely dry goods and see how long that took. I remember it wasn't long.

[CStrickland]

I wasn't suggesting you hid it.
Just pointing it out because I think that's a maj diff. A lot of people who say it isn't necessary assume some live rock in the system. I think it's apples to oranges comparing a tank that is fully reliant on atmospheric bacteria to one that has something seeding it, whether that's live rock, live sand, a bottle of potion, or some combo.

[jason2459]

I wasn't suggesting you hid it.
Just pointing it out because I think that's a maj diff. A lot of people who say it isn't necessary assume some live rock in the system. I think it's apples to oranges comparing a tank that is fully reliant on atmospheric bacteria to one that has something seeding it, whether that's live rock, live sand, a bottle of potion, or some combo.


The difference is seeding a tank with either rock from a friend's tank, a curing tub at an LFS, or curing yourself is a proven effective method.

[CStrickland]

Maybe so. People certainly believe that passionately.

I just like to keep the language clear. Since IMO whether the tank is seeded is as important, if not more so, than how.

[jason2459]

So here's another example with 0 bacteria support other then air and surface area 100%*


my current mantis tank and setup in the mantis subforum:
20G long
15# Pukani dry rock
40#*Nature's Ocean Australian Gold #1 1.2-1.7mm.*

Water added 8/15/2010.
Fed mysis* a few times.
8/26/2010 ammonia remains at 0
8/27/2010 nitrite zeroed out as well.

~12 days.


* 100% as long as we can trust the Hikari marketing
Three-step sterilization ensures quality frozen mysis shrimp
Three-step sterilization ensures optimal quality - food is free of parasites, harmful bacteria, and foul odor

[CStrickland]

Haha, yeah I wouldn't count bacteria that came on the shrimps
That's interesting. Do you recall what ppm the ammonia spiked to before it zeroed out?

[jason2459]

Haha, yeah I wouldn't count bacteria that came on the shrimps
That's interesting. Do you recall what ppm the ammonia spiked to before it zeroed out?
I don't. I wasn't as detailed with the notes on this setup as I was with my main display tank. I might have noted it in my rebuild and recovery journal but not in the mantis tank build thread. Just noted in it what I added to the tank and when the ammonia and nitrite hit 0. I'll have to search my main long running thread if I did in there.

Edit: just looked in my main DT journal and nothing noted for the mantis tank during that time.

[bertoni]

...and I have provided evidence bacteria in a bottle helps to speed up the initial ammonia and nitrite processing cycle in under 18 days.
Not really, and 18 days isn't all that short a time, in any case, as I stated before. To determine whether Bio-Spira worked, we'd need to do a bunch of controlled tests on a set of aquariums, probably sterilizing them a few times and using controlled doses of organics. Then we'd have to argue about the organic load to add.

The problem with doing the experiments is that the company can change the product, or claim to change the product, at any time. So I haven't been very motivated to try. It's possible that Bio-Spira (or some of the other product) works. They have changed the stated storage requirements from earlier versions, which might correspond to a change in the product from the earlier version that seemed very sketchy.

[bertoni]

So here's another example with 0 bacteria support other then air and surface area 100%*
...
If a tank is started with very clean live rock and not given a large initial ammonia input, then this result is believable. One of the purposes of "cycling" a tank definitely is waiting for any organic debris on the rock to decay. If there's no debris, then that part of the cycle never happens. If the starting livestock load is small compared to the size of the tank, then the ammonia should stay at zero (measured). Remember that our kits are only so precise.

The problem is defining "small" in terms of the ammonia input. I don't particularly know how to quantify this in a useful way. We could experiment with pure ammonia and a bunch of tanks, but animals are all different. Fish should be very high load compared to less mobile invertebrates, and most of the corals with photosynthetic symbionts we keep will produce very little, if any, ammonia in the water column.

[CStrickland]

I think that's why language is key to these threads. To use this one as an example, the title asks "is it worth it?"

It seems inevitable that folks are going to go round and round over whether a method is "worth it" or "better" because those are very subjective terms. I suppose "worth it" implies some comparison of whether the costs are outweighed by the benefits.
- Comparison: better than what? OP's asking about a tank full of live rock, but people are responding with results from all DIY or mined rocks. I think I've hammered this one to death though.
- Cost: risk of harm or delay from an inappropriate strain of bac, contamination, the price of the potion, unpredictability, maybe some notion of "shortcuts are a bad habit for noobs, long cycles teach patience," I bet there's more
- Benefits: claims to practically eliminate the wait for cycling bacteria to establish. What if it shortens it by a week? That's a diff comparison. What about a day?

All of these claims pertain to "cycling a tank" but we don't have consensus on what that means. People throw around *rules* like "able to process 2ppm ammonia in 24 hours" but really you just need enough bac for your first ammonia generating critters. Maybe you need to get a QT or HT up and running in a hurry. Maybe you'd rather wait until the entire complement of bacteria is in place. These potions seem weak on nitrate reduction in particular but nitrate doesn't hurt fish - that's a whole 'nother comparison depending on the reefer's goal.

I think a lot of the contention is a result of these analytical weaknesses. Of course people are going to get fired up over whether some technique is better at a thing, when better and thing are such easily moved goal posts.

Another thought about some of the results in this thread: it's inappropriate to make claims about efficacy of a product if you aren't using the it as designed. Last I checked, biospira goes in before any ammonia generators get to work. You put it in, and then the next day you add fish. Letting the ammonia get up to crazy high, possibly inhibitory ppm, and then cranking in a bottle might be an interesting "stress test" but using a product contrary to directions and then making claims as to its efficacy is farther than I would go.

[JojoAZ]

As someone who just joined RC, Ive gotta say the aggressiveness on many of these comments is quite a turn off.

I think a lot of people have different results because the bacteria are thrown in under different parameters. I've started tanks with bio spira and microbacter7. I can tell you I wasted almost a month waiting for bio spira to take affect and didn't realize that these bacteria have a specific temp and salinity which is conducive to them. I cooled the water I was try to cycle and it took off. You also need a source of ammonia and if you overdue that you can kill some of the beneficial bacteria that are trying to complete the cycle.

[jason2459]

As someone who just joined RC, Ive gotta say the aggressiveness on many of these comments is quite a turn off.

...

There is a difference between aggressiveness and questioning the validity of a product and defensiveness.

[CStrickland]

As someone who just joined RC, Ive gotta say the aggressiveness on many of these comments is quite a turn off.

Sorry to hear that, hope you stick around.
The tone is usually more profesh, especially in this part of the forum. But there are a few topics that people feel so passionately about that they give into the temptation to attack each other, instead of each other's ideas.

If you don't get distracted by that, there is an amazing amount of info and experience around here. There is so much to learn about the hobby, and that learning can be really fun if you leave the drama to others. It's not always easy tho ;)

[ClownReef®]

Sorry, I would have thrown in another 45 cents but I was looking at my beautiful cycled tank.

THANKS BIO SPIRA! YOURE THE BEST!

[Brieninsac]

I'm curious why so many people are increasing the ammonia after adding Bio-spira since there is no mention of this in the directions.

[JojoAZ]

I'm curious why so many people are increasing the ammonia after adding Bio-spira since there is no mention of this in the directions.

I think they don't mention that because they assume youre adding fish, which would be fine as an ammonia source. I think most reefers would rather not put a fish at risk so they use an alternative. I used a piece of shrimp. If there is nothing the tank will never cycle, the bacteria that utilize ammonia need to produce waste to start the process.

[DiveDr]

Bio-Spira works as advertised. I have used it many times to "bang cycle" a tank. Last use was for a pico transfer from a 2 gal to a 5 gal system. DSB live sand and new live rock, transferred ceramic filter media from old to new set-up. Ammonia from die off on new live rock. First 24 hrs ammonia level at a toxic 1-2 ppm. Added 1/4 bottle Bio-Spira, 24 hrs later ammonia zero, trace nitrite. At 48 hrs 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 5 ppm nitrate, fully stocked. Two weeks later everything is thriving, great stuff, would have been over a month to cycle naturally.

[jason2459]

...

would have been over a month to cycle naturally.

Why do you think that?

[Tfrawley]

Bio-Spira has always worked for me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[oseymour]

I've upgraded twice and used Dr Tims which is similar to BioSpira. I used API test kits and saw no ammonia spike (API test). I was only moving 3 or 4 small fish. If you order from his website he sends you free ammonia to use as a source.

With my last upgrade I was moving 10 fish so I didn't trust Dr Tims only with such a heavy bioload, I bought MarinePure blocks and had them seeded in a sump for months before the move.

Final thoughts, in my experience for a small tank with just a couple of fish, I trust it. You can use the ammonia that he sends to see if the bacteria works. For larger tanks and moves, it might work, but I have too much invested to risk it.

[Yonp11]

I use biospira whenever I have to set up a long term QT quickly. Hasn't failed me yet, I usually get nitrite and nitrate readings the next day or two.

[DiveDr]

Why do you think that?

Previous experience. Moving tanks and adding live rock with die-off and toxic ammonia levels. Bio-Spira allows for a 48 hr complete cycle with the ability to stock immediately, have done this many times, same great results. I sometimes use it to cycle dry live rock, quickly eats dead and decaying material and establishes algae within 2 weeks. At week 3 safe to add to reef with the added advantage of being part of the biological filter for the system. I remember the old days of dolomite and undergravels, then wet-drys. The best product to assist in cycling at that time was Fritz-Zyme (complete crap back in the day) and Hawaiian Marine lyophilized Nitrobacter (not too great either). Overall this is a great product.

[jason2459]

Previous experience. Moving tanks and adding live rock with die-off and toxic ammonia levels. Bio-Spira allows for a 48 hr complete cycle with the ability to stock immediately, have done this many times, same great results. I sometimes use it to cycle dry live rock, quickly eats dead and decaying material and establishes algae within 2 weeks. At week 3 safe to add to reef with the added advantage of being part of the biological filter for the system. I remember the old days of dolomite and undergravels, then wet-drys. The best product to assist in cycling at that time was Fritz-Zyme (complete crap back in the day) and Hawaiian Marine lyophilized Nitrobacter (not too great either). Overall this is a great product.

That's to bad that's your experience. I seem to be able to get tanks to cycle out ammonia and nitrites with in a couple weeks. No bacteria in the bottle used.

FYI, I still use a dolomite covered reversed undergravel filter.