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alexkharden
02/07/2016, 11:43 AM
I could be wrong, but I feel like my return pump it's either to large or my overflow is too small.

This is how forcefully the water is coming in over the overflow.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/b74842b97404f575cf10e9e0c643661d.jpg

This is how high the water is over my first baffle.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/b7a8301b417804ffd241d64991611454.jpg

And this is how violently the water is leaving the third baffle and entering my pump section.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/6e84576e1dbae066e2d99962bdb56c08.jpg

So what's going on here, is all this normal? I'm not sure what I expected. I mean, I knew there would be done aeration, but this is like a hurricane!

bayoupr
02/07/2016, 11:45 AM
Install a gate valve or ball valve on your return pump's outlet then fine tune it to get the flow you want. Does your overflow have an adjustment to raise the water within the overflow itself?

jminick2
02/07/2016, 11:47 AM
how many drains and what size, and what size returns, and what return pump. sound like your return pump isn't keeping up.

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 11:49 AM
I have a ball valve, but it's wide open right now. I also have a dc 6000, which is a variable speed pump, but everything only calms down when I go to the lowest setting. Which means I'm not getting nearly the turnover that I was hoping for at that speed. I don't mind the hurricane, per se, but I do wonder at the water heights and the bubbles being introduced into my return pump section.

So for high turnover systems this is normal?

phxreefer
02/07/2016, 11:58 AM
It looks like the tank water level is just about to crest over the top of the weir itself, this alone tells me that the pump is too much for the tank. I would slow the pump flow until you can get the tank level to stabilize in the middle of the teeth. Something else that I can't see for sure is the level of the water in the overflow will affect the flow through the teeth. You could lower the level some to help increase the flow and lower the tank level. You really only need 3 - 5 times system size through the sump so without knowing more about the system slowing return flow is a good first step. Add a T to the return with a gate valve returning to sump to slow flow rather than restricting the pump flow.

JaySchulz
02/07/2016, 12:00 PM
Can't even see through the water at all.

What kind of turnover do you think your getting?

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 12:15 PM
Lol, you can't see through the water at all because some dumb a$$ dumped a 40# bag of sand into the dt without cleaning it first. (Me) That was 2 days ago and I've got filter socks everywhere and my skimmer going trying to get all the silt cleaned out of the water column.

Regarding the original question. Herbie overflow, both drains at 1 1/2". Waveline DC6000 return pump with 1" outlet, stepped up to 1 1/2" BH, stepped down to two 3/4" return lines in the overflow. I have a 1 1/2" ball valve on the return. This is a 190g DT.

Yes, the water is definitely about to crest the top of the overflow. I'm not sure what you mean about the water level inside the over flow, but I'll post a pic here in a second so you all can see it.

I thought I was trying for 10x the volume of my tank per hour, so I got the pump I did, 1585gph rated, and thought I was under buying with that.

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 12:21 PM
It looks like the tank water level is just about to crest over the top of the weir itself, this alone tells me that the pump is too much for the tank. I would slow the pump flow until you can get the tank level to stabilize in the middle of the teeth. Something else that I can't see for sure is the level of the water in the overflow will affect the flow through the teeth. You could lower the level some to help increase the flow and lower the tank level. You really only need 3 - 5 times system size through the sump so without knowing more about the system slowing return flow is a good first step. Add a T to the return with a gate valve returning to sump to slow flow rather than restricting the pump flow.
Here's the level inside my overflow.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/286fe7060ee9a0a079316e7b7c55d99c.jpg

Here's the level inside my sump.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/456a196f1a8de94fed584537a302eeb8.jpg

Here's my return line.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/873f52da792306ae9611012585e9e074.jpg

And here's the over flow return.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160207/182fa39a93f74da785282b52bf688b11.jpg

I also have a 1 1/2" gate valve on my main drain line, per Herbie requirements.

phxreefer
02/07/2016, 12:35 PM
It sounds like you have the valving required to slow the return flow a little. What happens when you do that? When I was talking about the water level in the overflow what I meant was that as the water gets close to the bottom of the teeth you will see that it slows the volume that can go throught the teeth. Try speeding up the drain and see if it lowers the tank water level to see what I mean. Either way the first step would be to slow return flow a little. The Herbie is definitely a balancing act for sure.

jminick2
02/07/2016, 12:50 PM
why would you slow the return, It appears in the first pic the water is at least a half inch over the first baffle which should not be happening. Which means the return isn't keeping up.

I think you could afford to take some water out as well..

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 12:51 PM
I slowed the return pump and got the water halfway through the teeth. I could only accomplish this by slowing the pump all the way down and by directing more of the flow into my refugium section. I don't know how much water the dc6000 is rated to move at its lowest setting, but this doesn't seem like much turnover at all, especially since probably a quarter of that amount is going into the fuge. Am I wrong?

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 12:52 PM
Oh, and now my sump is almost completely full so I'll need to set up my stenner to pump some of it down the drain.

phxreefer
02/07/2016, 01:08 PM
To answer jminick's question, the drain system will only drain exactly what is returned. Speeding up the return to lower the level in the sump is the reverse of what will realy happen. Sure it will lower the water in the return section but will speed up the water across the baffle, thereby raising the height above the baffle. If you want a lower level above the baffle with a given flow the width of the baffle needs to be increased. I'm assuming this isn't possible unless you want to build a new sump.

To the OP, the max amount you can return to the tank is largely dictated by how much the weir teeth can handle. Returning more than they can handle will only serve to raise the tank level. Find a return flow that gets you the desired level in the display, then deal with sump level and refugium flow.

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 01:25 PM
To answer jminick's question, the drain system will only drain exactly what is returned. Speeding up the return to lower the level in the sump is the reverse of what will realy happen. Sure it will lower the water in the return section but will speed up the water across the baffle, thereby raising the height above the baffle. If you want a lower level above the baffle with a given flow the width of the baffle needs to be increased. I'm assuming this isn't possible unless you want to build a new sump.

To the OP, the max amount you can return to the tank is largely dictated by how much the weir teeth can handle. Returning more than they can handle will only serve to raise the tank level. Find a return flow that gets you the desired level in the display, then deal with sump level and refugium flow.
So, basically, my original question included the "overflow is too small" part.

It seems like my entire return system flow rate is dictated by linear inches on my overflow, yes? So the only way it seems I could take full advantage of my return pumps power is to increase the size of my overflow. So, that sucks. I guess I'll need a couple more powerheads.

phxreefer
02/07/2016, 01:36 PM
I think you have it now. I wouldn't think of it as being a downside though. You only need enought return flow to feed your skimmer and fuge. Notice I said it that way on purpose, the return flow dictates the amount drained not the other way around. Too much flow increases the the amount of water suspended in the display and thus the drain back (the amount your sump must accept in event of power failure), and power consumption is also higher. The best part is that you have a DC pump and can dial it in to where it needs to be.

phxreefer
02/07/2016, 01:40 PM
Also, return flow should not be used for display flow. Power heads are much more economical for this as they have no head, and therefore consume less power and move more water for the same power usage.

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 01:45 PM
That makes sense. Yes, at this point with my water levels where they are, a power outage would come close to overflowing my sump (since I slowed the pump). So now that I have everything going at a reasonable rate I'll pump the excess off into my water change barrel (I've already added some salt) and take my return section water level down to a reasonable height.

alexkharden
02/07/2016, 01:45 PM
Thank you for your help!