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View Full Version : Bangaiis- your thoughts


iReef1234
02/12/2016, 03:32 PM
With bangaii cardinal fish being listed as threatened by the endangered species act, what are your thoughts on stil importing wild ones?

:fish1:

Protoavis
02/12/2016, 04:03 PM
That it's bad.

Especially when considering that breeding in aquariums has been achieved with fairly regular success by many different people.

TimeConsumer
02/12/2016, 04:51 PM
My thought is that when captive bred specimens are available that it is our responsibility to seek them out over wild caught.

dendrite
02/12/2016, 05:28 PM
my thought is that when captive bred specimens are available that it is our responsibility to seek them out over wild caught.

+1

SNAKEMANVET
02/13/2016, 07:38 AM
They should not be wild caught anymore,since they breed like rabbits.I have raised several batches and they sell fast.This is we as a hobby need to try and raise them and sell back to our Lfs and fellow reefers.I know a lot ppl don't want to go through the trouble of feeding but to see them grow makes you feel good.

TimeConsumer
02/13/2016, 07:52 AM
I agree that breeding is important. But just as important is for people to demand captive-bred species. Wild caught are usually cheaper so most LFS will buy those to keep prices down. If there were more hobbyists that wouldn't settle for wild species it would go a long way.

This is a very important issue for me. I am in the process of setting up a 20g nano reef that is going to be entirely captive bred livestock. From the fish to the corals to the snails. My version is a little excessive, but I'm also doing it to try and raise awareness.

minus9
02/14/2016, 12:04 AM
I agree with snakemanvet, these fish breed like rabbits. There is no need to sell wild caught banggaii.

iReef1234
02/15/2016, 10:51 AM
I feel the same way but see that PIJAC is not interested in promoting captive raised banggais which, to me, means they are not supporting aquarists who breed them. Why don't they support our interests in captive raising this species?

Check out Ret Talbot's post about PIJAC's stance here: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/pijac-strongly-recommends-nmfs-not-prohibit-trade-in-banggai-cardinalfish/

"PIJAC Advocates Continued Trade in Wild-Harvest Banggai Cardinalfish"

iReef1234
02/15/2016, 10:53 AM
I agree that breeding is important. But just as important is for people to demand captive-bred species. Wild caught are usually cheaper so most LFS will buy those to keep prices down. If there were more hobbyists that wouldn't settle for wild species it would go a long way.

This is a very important issue for me. I am in the process of setting up a 20g nano reef that is going to be entirely captive bred livestock. From the fish to the corals to the snails. My version is a little excessive, but I'm also doing it to try and raise awareness.

Thanks for the detailed reply! :fish2:

TimeConsumer
02/15/2016, 04:23 PM
I feel the same way but see that PIJAC is not interested in promoting captive raised banggais which, to me, means they are not supporting aquarists who breed them. Why don't they support our interests in captive raising this species?

Check out Ret Talbot's post about PIJAC's stance here: https://rettalbot.wordpress.com/2016/01/22/pijac-strongly-recommends-nmfs-not-prohibit-trade-in-banggai-cardinalfish/

"PIJAC Advocates Continued Trade in Wild-Harvest Banggai Cardinalfish"

Well, they are a lobbying group. Their main goal is to protect the interest of their members. So if Banggai Cardinal breeders aren't a part of their lobby then they have no reason to support them over the importers, wholesalers, and retailers that are part of their lobby.

Harth23
02/15/2016, 08:36 PM
My question is why are we not using tank bread ones to release into the wild

iReef1234
02/16/2016, 07:14 PM
Well, they are a lobbying group. Their main goal is to protect the interest of their members. So if Banggai Cardinal breeders aren't a part of their lobby then they have no reason to support them over the importers, wholesalers, and retailers that are part of their lobby.

Makes sense. I was confused bc I heard people saying it was a conservation group.

ReefPharmer
02/16/2016, 10:51 PM
PIJAC - pet industry joint advisory council. Probably as far as you can get from conservationism. They are the OPEC of pets. Anything from "commercial dog / cat breeders", to wild capture of all types of species, if it sells in a petstore, its part of their lobby.

iReef1234
02/17/2016, 07:49 AM
Why do reefers give money towards it? My local club gave a lot. But here on RC many people say they would rather make the hobby conservation oriented. Giving money to industry to fight conservation/ESA/captive rearing potential doesn't make sense. I guess this is because everyone is different?

Thanks for explaining! Yall are awesome (and patient)

TimeConsumer
02/17/2016, 08:21 AM
Maybe they don't know any better. Or maybe they don't care much about supporting small captive breeders. Maybe they would rather see lobbying change the regulations in CITES to make importing wild specimens easier (not everyone is conservation oriented).

I would probably just ask your reef club leaders why.

CuzzA
02/17/2016, 03:46 PM
PIJAC's stance on wild Bengaliis is wrong, but they do support the hobbyist and we should support them. The recent debacle with the attempted coral ban is a perfect example. They are one of the few who are in our corner to try and stop those who hold a position that marine aquariums should flat out be illegal. So be careful by taking a complete stance against them. No one and no organization is perfect. Write them a letter voicing your opinion on the Bengaii situation, but remember at the end of the day, they have your back.

jayball
02/22/2016, 03:48 PM
I think there should not be a ban on collection, but there should be a much lower limit.

It is important to be able to freshen bloodlines in a captive breeding program.

CStrickland
02/22/2016, 08:46 PM
Honestly, I was really disappointed in PIJAC's approach to the coral restrictions. I thought it was a poor choice to try to rile up the hobby with threats about taking away our coral, and send people off to write comments on the bill with very little info. But I can see how framing the issue as "us vs. them" is beneficial to a lobbying group. I'd be curious to know what they actually did with all the money they raised.

There were legit issues with the additions the EPA was trying to pass, but it got drowned out by PIJACs fearmongering. IDK if it's in the hobbys interest to come off like a bunch of "don't tread on me" wackos. It'd be good if we could cultivate a relationship with the agencies that have a say in what we can collect.

I don't see a good reason to buy wild fish whenever there are captive bred ones available.

Protoavis
02/22/2016, 11:41 PM
My question is why are we not using tank bread ones to release into the wild

Biological contamination, aquariums may have foreign bacteria, viruses, etc that would end up being introduced to wild populations with unknown effects. Those bred in captivity may never have survived in the wild so genetic viability of the wild population could be heavily skewed based on numbers released, etc.

KafudaFish
02/23/2016, 06:35 PM
Biological contamination, aquariums may have foreign bacteria, viruses, etc that would end up being introduced to wild populations with unknown effects. Those bred in captivity may never have survived in the wild so genetic viability of the wild population could be heavily skewed based on numbers released, etc.

What do you think happens at a fish hatchery?

E572
03/06/2016, 09:19 AM
I have 2 and had no idea they were going endangered. What a shame.

ThRoewer
03/12/2016, 02:30 AM
I think catching them at Banggai, their natural habitat, should be limited to broodstock for breeders.

But by now they have become an invasive species at Lembeh Strait - I see no issues catching wild ones for the aquarium trade there.
There they are actually not much better than the lionfish in the Caribbean, and nobody feels those need protection.

Dierkes
03/12/2016, 03:43 AM
If they breed like rabbits in the aquarium then they should be breeding in the wild like rabbits also.

Lilbitreefer
03/12/2016, 05:17 AM
unfortunately if water parameters are not good and there are just too many predators then they will not survive. It is the loss of habitat through the destruction of reefs and pollution that screws up the water quality. The juvenile bangaiis are not making it to adulthood to further grow the population. Thus reducing their wild populations. They are able to proliferate a tank because there are no predators and water quality is pretty good.
It is one of the reasons many people hate the hog farms here in NC because they are polluting the river systems where many of our tasty fish come to breed. poor breeding grounds leads to fewer offspring and even fewer fish to hunt. This applies to all fish whether they are ornamental for our tanks of food to survive.

linkedsilas
03/15/2016, 05:38 PM
As said above, there is a big difference in animals that are bred in captivity and ones that are wild. I have no experience with fish, but I work with red wolves. Genetics can play a big part too

sde1500
03/16/2016, 07:36 AM
If they breed like rabbits in the aquarium then they should be breeding in the wild like rabbits also.

Incredibly short sighted comment. Just consider the overwhelming amount of variables that go into them breeding and surviving in the wild compared to a tank. For starters predators, pollution, habitat destruction.

CritterHeaven
03/16/2016, 09:15 AM
Until the demand for wild caught ends, the supply will continue. We as buyers support the collection and sale of these endangered fish. Buy tank bred.

ForeverNoob
03/16/2016, 12:02 PM
I am getting back into the hobby and will be ready to stock my tank in a couple months. This will definitely stop me from purchasing this breed of fish from my lfs unless I can get a guarantee that they were captive bred.

Reef Frog
03/17/2016, 12:29 PM
Captive bred fish have a higher survival rate then wild collected fish. Certain precautions concerning disease & parasites can be employed in a properly run hatchery as well.

So if concern over the natural environment doesn't sway somebody towards captive raised fish, perhaps their own self interest in not wasting money on fish that are destined to die in their home tanks will persuade more people about the benefits of captive bred fish. But I think the typical aquarium keeper is oblivious to these facts.

EthanHawaii
04/09/2016, 06:19 PM
I've been looking for these guys for a while and my LFS says that they get them in frequently, but he also said lately about 50% of them end up dying due to them being so small. They are coming from quality marine so you would expect that they would not be selling dying or sick fish! Oh and they are all aquacultured.

Burtonboy182
04/25/2016, 05:24 PM
I too had no idea. I have 2 and they spawn all the time. A buddy of mine has raised like 30 babies already and traded them to fellow reefers. If I could get mine out I would definitely try and raise them

Tfrawley
04/28/2016, 06:47 AM
i agree with snakemanvet, these fish breed like rabbits. There is no need to sell wild caught banggaii.



+1

Fishfirst
05/01/2016, 12:10 PM
I've been looking for these guys for a while and my LFS says that they get them in frequently, but he also said lately about 50% of them end up dying due to them being so small. They are coming from quality marine so you would expect that they would not be selling dying or sick fish! Oh and they are all aquacultured.

That isn't on QM... That is on your lfs... Likely they are not feeding them correctly or enoufh

Fishfirst
05/01/2016, 12:13 PM
Harvesting from the reefs brings value to those reefs. Just like a tree farm, it is renewable, unless we devalue the Reef and decide dredging for a shipping yard is more important, or harvesting food fish with dinomite is more productive.

SNAKEMANVET
05/01/2016, 06:29 PM
I have seperated my pairs for now while I upgrade to a bigger tank.I have sold a lot of young bangaiis to fellow reefers and Lfs.I keep them until they are 4 months old to be sure they are ready to catch and move.I have had up to three different broods going at the same time.

Monkeypod
05/18/2016, 03:46 PM
I have 2 captive bred cardinals, I can't say they look or act any different then a wild caught on. I always try to buy captive bred for both my cichlid and reef tank when ever possible.

Halo_003
05/18/2016, 10:00 PM
I would like to get a wildcaught pair to breed actually. I'm all for captive breeding but not a stagnate gene pool.

Radioheadx14
05/19/2016, 06:59 AM
I would like to get a wildcaught pair to breed actually. I'm all for captive breeding but not a stagnate gene pool.

Not a bad idea. I bred a captive grown pair and a lot of the babies had weird deformed gills. they seemed healthy and grew just fine... but their gill flaps were flared open.

Protoavis
05/26/2016, 05:05 PM
Harvesting from the reefs brings value to those reefs. Just like a tree farm, it is renewable, unless we devalue the Reef and decide dredging for a shipping yard is more important, or harvesting food fish with dinomite is more productive.


There's only so much that can be harvested before causing significant disturbance that could result in the destruction of wild populations....these fish are facing extinction in their natural habitat because of over fishing.

mradonis
06/01/2016, 01:51 PM
The LFS by me said they might not be getting any more in.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Fissues
06/12/2016, 03:18 PM
The Lembeh Strait has seen these fish breed like rabbits since they were introduced in the early 2000's. I say we move most (preferably all, but illegal fishing exsists) to the Lembeh and give the Bangaii populations a chance to rebound.