Does this picture look like Ich?

[taylortot]

Fish in QT tank, looks like ich and that's what I have been treating, but kind of not exactly the same as what I remember it looking like when I had an ich outbreak 6 months ago in my freshwater??? I feel like I have sooo many questions on here :confused: I just want to make sure I do things right.

343194

[heathlindner25]

Yes it does

[Sapelo]

Yes it looks like ich.
That also looks like rock in your QT which is going to be an issue.
I would reach the sticky posting and I strongly encourage you to consider the tank transfer method.

[gone fishin]

It would appear to be ich. I have saw some of your other postings and the FW dips will not do anything for the ich. Also, garlic and ginger does nothing to get rid of ich. There are only a few accepted methods to get rid of ich. They are Tank transfer method (TTM), copper, and hyposalinity.
IMO TTM is the most effective and least stressful if done correctly. Copper and hypo each have their on set of issues that make them more difficult to do.

In addition all fish need to be removed from the DT and the tank left fishless for 72 days.

[dgbandog]

yep

[taylortot]

It would appear to be ich. I have saw some of your other postings and the FW dips will not do anything for the ich. Also, garlic and ginger does nothing to get rid of ich. There are only a few accepted methods to get rid of ich. They are Tank transfer method (TTM), copper, and hyposalinity.
IMO TTM is the most effective and least stressful if done correctly. Copper and hypo each have their on set of issues that make them more difficult to do.

In addition all fish need to be removed from the DT and the tank left fishless for 72 days.


I'm going to look into the tank transfer since I'm scared of using copper.

How big should my QT be if I have 2 chromis, a clown, and a tang I need to QT? is 20g sufficient?

[taylortot]

Yes it looks like ich.
That also looks like rock in your QT which is going to be an issue.
I would reach the sticky posting and I strongly encourage you to consider the tank transfer method.


It is a fake rock with some fake coral on it. Only reason I bought it is because my tang was obsessed with it at the store I bought him from. thought maybe it'd be comforting for him since he loved it so much at the store. I can switch to some pvc pipes or something though very easily :) I'm looking into the TTM, I'm terrified of using copper anyways

[gone fishin]

I'm going to look into the tank transfer since I'm scared of using copper.

How big should my QT be if I have 2 chromis, a clown, and a tang I need to QT? is 20g sufficient?


How big is the tang and the clown? What type of tang and clown? If they are on the small side then a 20 long would probably work. Be vigilant for ammonia in a smaller tank with 4 fish and possible aggression. if they are larger then you may want to consider a couple of 20's for the main QT

If your looking To do TTM then a couple 10g is what I use but you may to divide the fishes up into 2 batches for the reasons stated above.

[leviburns89]

Ok, from what I've been studying on Ich...

Ich is a parasite that is in every body of water.

The reason ich effects our fish negatively is
A) large colonies of the parasite
B) weak immune systems of the fish

I have read countless articles saying that if the ich is not effecting the fish to the point that it's not eating,, garlic and vitamins can help boost the immune system to fight off the parasite.

Saying garlic "has no effect" is kind of misleading. Garlic has outstanding antimicrobial properties, and introducing it to their diet will help fight off a large amount of the infection.

A multivitamin in addition to garlic can help give the fish the nutrients it needs to build it's immune sytem, and fight off the parasite.

Ich is in every single body of water on the planet, so by removing the infected fish, you aren't really addressing the underlying cause. Especially if there are other fish in the tank, this becomes simply unrealistic, as every other fish is being exposed to the same thing the infected one is. So in turn, it's an issue with the infected fish's immune system.

You need to do several water changes, feed the fish garlic alongside a multivitamin.

If it does not get better within a week or two, no amount of QT will help because it's immune system has fallen far beyond what can be repaired, and the parasite has already taken over its host.

[gone fishin]

OK. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

[leviburns89]

OK. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.
Didn't mean any condescension, was just stating what I've studied.

If his fish is "acting" ill, vs just looking ill, you are correct, garlic won't do a thing because the parasite has fully colonized it's host.

I respect your opinion, because most people don't realize their fish has ich until it is physically showing symptoms, and by that point, it's more trouble to fix it, then to just get a replacement.

If I had to QT a $30 fish for 3 months, vs just getting a new healthy fish that can fight off the ich, I would just give it to an lfs for store cred and cut my loss. Do a few wc, then get a new one.

[gone fishin]

No worries.

After hanging around the forums for awhile I really don't debate ich anymore. The information is out there, I point folks in the direction of the treatment methods that have worked for me and others. What folks choose to do with the information is their business.

[mr.feebles]

one thing a fw dip *can* do for a fish w/ cryptocaryon is provide some immediate relief by helping to clear the parasites off of the fish's gill filaments, enabling to get O2 more easily (and hopefully then) have more strength to deal. it won't do anything for the encysted phase of the parasites.

[mr.feebles]

Ok, from what I've been studying on Ich...

Ich is a parasite that is in every body of water.

The reason ich effects our fish negatively is
A) large colonies of the parasite
B) weak immune systems of the fish

I have read countless articles saying that if the ich is not effecting the fish to the point that it's not eating,, garlic and vitamins can help boost the immune system to fight off the parasite.

Saying garlic "has no effect" is kind of misleading. Garlic has outstanding antimicrobial properties, and introducing it to their diet will help fight off a large amount of the infection.

A multivitamin in addition to garlic can help give the fish the nutrients it needs to build it's immune sytem, and fight off the parasite.

Ich is in every single body of water on the planet, so by removing the infected fish, you aren't really addressing the underlying cause. Especially if there are other fish in the tank, this becomes simply unrealistic, as every other fish is being exposed to the same thing the infected one is. So in turn, it's an issue with the infected fish's immune system.

You need to do several water changes, feed the fish garlic alongside a multivitamin.

If it does not get better within a week or two, no amount of QT will help because it's immune system has fallen far beyond what can be repaired, and the parasite has already taken over its host.

there is absolutely no documented, evidence based study that proves garlic has any benefit to any sw fish, other than maybe as a taste attractant.

there are indications that garlic may actually cause severe health issues in fish. a form of anemia, iirc.

any link between garlic and 'ich' is anecdotal conjecture based on assumption and mistaken 'causality' based on appearance to hobbyists only.

since garlic claims for fish were printed anywhere, still no actual evidence it does a darn thing, and it's been debated to death all over the internets. still no actual *evidence*.

same for vitamins.

the product marketers, who want to sell you their wares, will claim otherwise-as long as it will help them sell you garlic and vitamins.

i've spawned fw fish for decades, kept sw for decades, and spawned one specie of damsel. not one of 'em ever needed, or got, a vitamin supplement ;)

[leviburns89]

It has nothing to do with the vitamin and it's relation to ich.

Once again, it's the fish's ability to fight off the parasite via a strong immune system.

So you're saying vitamins don't play a role in strengthening an immune system?

[leviburns89]

As well, the garlic may not do anything to the ich itself, but it very well helps some fish gain back an appetite, and also provides micro nutrients, thus leading to a healthier immune system.

Also, the garlic can play a role by deterring other pests that may be bugging your fish.

I never said it was a cure, only a treatment.

There is no cure do to the fact that as soon as a fish leaves a medicated copper tank, it will be immediately reintroduced to the ich once it hits any other body of water.

[sde1500]

Sure a healthy immune system helps fight off ich. What's just as easy? TTM to eliminate ich completely by taking advantage of its lifecycle. Not sure how garlic can actually help since it isn't proven at all. It's pure conjecture. Some real studies about garlic and its danger to fish. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20684311&postcount=14

[billdogg]

No worries.

After hanging around the forums for awhile I really don't debate ich anymore. The information is out there, I point folks in the direction of the treatment methods that have worked for me and others. What folks choose to do with the information is their business.

x 1,000,000,000,000,000

TTM for my fish, tyvm

[leviburns89]

That study helped, and fought my argument.

Does it do anything to combat the parasite, yes, and no.

It does help the fish gain it's appetite, although heavy long-term dosage can cause serious problems to the fish red blood cell count - anemia.

And a healthy appetite can help boost it's immune system.

After reading that study, I'm still on the fence. To me, it seems if you can get your fish eating again, that's gonna be the biggest advantage you can get.

And TTM isn't practical when you have 20 fish in your tank, because they would have to all be transfered, ideally into their own tanks.

[sde1500]

TTM all fish prior to making it into the tank. Then no ich in the DT to begin with.

[leviburns89]

TTM all fish prior to making it into the tank. Then no ich in the DT to begin with.
Ich or cryptocaryon, is present in all bodies of water. Your fish's ability to fend off harmful amounts of the parasite by having a strong immune system, is the only defense against it.

[CStrickland]

This thread is full of speculation, and unsupported opinion repeated as fact.
I hope that any new reefers searching for ich treatment and prevention protocols who wind up in here are smart enough to dig a little deeper on the subject before proceeding with any course of action. A good place to start are the ich threads in the "setting up" sticky, and the stickies in the marine fish diseases subforum.

[leviburns89]

speculation, and unsupported opinion repeated as fact.

Lol, that's what this hobby is. Even the scientific studies that are done aren't replicated, so it's still only anecdotal.

For example, the 90 clownfish that were used in the garlic study,, I'm willing to bet money that all 90 fish came from the same location, and all used the same water supply. So any number of variables have to be considered in his conclusion that garlic kills fish

[sde1500]

Ich or cryptocaryon, is present in all bodies of water. Your fish's ability to fend off harmful amounts of the parasite by having a strong immune system, is the only defense against it.


Honestly do you have any data to back that up? Most people here advocate QT to prevent ich, what data do you have that proves everyone here wrong?

[leviburns89]

I never said anyone was wrong, I was just stating my opinion. I actually value everyone's opinion because it give variable reference points for people to make educated decisions on vs just taking one persons advice.

But since you asked,,

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=16+2160&aid=2420

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptocaryon

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/

QT works very well, but as I stated earlier, becomes impractical with larger stocking. Several of the authors in the links I've posted say water changes are their preferred first course of action.

Only after that proves insignificant, will a hospital tank be implemented, followed up with copper and formalin, and after that, hyposalinity

[mr.feebles]

It has nothing to do with the vitamin and it's relation to ich.

Once again, it's the fish's ability to fight off the parasite via a strong immune system.

So you're saying vitamins don't play a role in strengthening an immune system?


i'm saying that w/ a good varied diet, NO supplementation is ever necessary. EVAR.

how much vitamin 'a' does a goby need in a day? an imperator angel? do they need the same? what about absorption rates? can you quote any study that establishes what a fish's daily requirements are?

vitamin additives are hokum, just like garlic :)

[mr.feebles]

As well, the garlic may not do anything to the ich itself, but it very well helps some fish gain back an appetite, and also provides micro nutrients, thus leading to a healthier immune system.

Also, the garlic can play a role by deterring other pests that may be bugging your fish.

I never said it was a cure, only a treatment.

There is no cure do to the fact that as soon as a fish leaves a medicated copper tank, it will be immediately reintroduced to the ich once it hits any other body of water.

please list the 'micronutrients' garlic would provide a fish thatwould be of any benefit.

please list any 'pest' that garlic's been *proven* to affect, that are found in sw.

you're simply making blanket statements of opinion that have absolutely NO basis in reality. none. just a repeat of a hobbyist repeating another ad infinitum from the 1st hobbyist who made the silly claims. again, NONE of which have real backing, aside from anecdote and mis-conclusions.

this is a product driven industry-i wouldn't believe most things you find printed on some useless bottle of what's mostly water to begin with, heh.

i'll wait for those lists ;)

[leviburns89]

Gonna be waiting a while there bud,,

I'm checking out of this thread.

Just getting a rebuttal of "a hobbyist repeating another hobbyist".

Which in reality is all there is in this hobby. Zero double blind studies, zero recreations of specific events, just basic scientific theory that is taken as fact, and never actually proven, and that's a fact.

Peace, love, and chicken grease.

Happy reefing, good luck with the ich problem OP

[CStrickland]

Levi, the issue with a lot of the stuff that you are reading is that it's kind of old news. You'll notice that a lot of the source material for the articles is more than ten years old. Back then, copper, hypo, and luck were the only methods available and there wasn't a feasible way to keep ich out of a tank. That's not necessarily the case anymore. You are right that there aren't double blinds for this stuff, but the forum provides a good snap shot of trends in success for different methods. Remember too that there's no double blinds for garlic either, but companies make a lot of $ selling garlicichblasterexxxtreme. There's no $ in ttm.

In the last few years, ttm has been used broadly and with enough success that many experienced reefers are confident in recommending it as a "best practice" for ich removal from a sick fish. This is crucial for a new tank, since if the parasite is never introduced, it will not spontaneously appear. Once the tank is infected it's a much bigger challenge to eradicate because of how long some stages can live in the rocks.

As opposed to in the bad old days, it's no longer true that every tank has ich. Sk8r had a terrible crash a month or so ago and her temp plummeted for several days. If her tank weren't ich free her fish would certainly be symptomatic. They weren't.

This forum in particular has been a pioneer in ich prevention. You're talking to some of the reefers that discovered, tested, and promoted ttm. They've heard your arguments before. It is frustrating for them to still be hearing the same old tired, disproven, old wives tales about garlic. This is especially troubling in the new to the hobby forum because of how much better things go when noobs adopt a rigorous qt from the jump. To put yourself in their shoes, imagine you discovered the smallpox vaccine and someone who took up immunology last month was telling everyone not to get it because it causes autism and if they just eat organic they won't get sick.

I don't actually try to keep ich out of my tank, personal choice. But those are the reasons why I wouldn't recommend lazy qt to a new reefer, if you're still reading :)

[jminick2]

Ich or cryptocaryon, is present in all bodies of water. .

wrong

[mr.feebles]

to be clear, leviburns89, i'm not trying to 'attack' you personally. nor do i think you have any ill or 'nefarious' motives when you give your advice. i'm sure you mean well and have good intentions :)

but 'the road to hell is paved w/ good intentions' ;)

here's a good illustrative example of what happens all too often in this hobby (and having sold my 1st fish to folks circa '77, i feel i'm more than qualified to opine, heh).

take multivitamins for people.

there is absolutely NO non vitamin industry funded test, or scientific evidence to suggest that taking a multivitamin will lead you to a longer, or healthier, life.

NONE. nada. zilch. zippo. you can go look all of this up on the NIH websites. furthermore, if you don't take a multivitamin and eat a varied diet, you will more than likely NOT suffer from any vitamin based deficiencies. and just because you swallow a pill containing a vitamin, like the 'b' complex, no guarantee you'll absorb the full amounts of whatever's in that pill.

yet millions of westerners believe that taking a vitamin pill will make them healthier.

why?

ADVERTISING. vitamins are advertised on tv countless x/day. and the commercials are very 'slick' and highly manipulative, as all commercials are, hehe.

in this hobby the problem is higher by an order of magnitude. MOST of all the misconceptions, false info, and propagation of terrible husbandry advice has been caused by the very companies trying to sell you 'garlich guard', or 'purple up', or countless other products.

take the company i'll call 'can't marine'. they market DOZENS of reef tank supplements, most claiming to do awesome things to your tank.

do you really think you'll get an awesome tank by pouring 20 different bottles of crap into it regularly?

be skeptical, and take NO ONE's advice at face value-you owe the life forms who are in your care more than that :) only do what you can verify, or find is a consensus among those w/ experience of more than 5 yrs, based on REPEATABLE results when testing the method, and who have no vested interest in your wallet ;)

alot of 'advice' comes from 'bandwagon jumping' in this hobby (and many others, i'm sure). don't jump on the wagon before checking the ticket ;)

no hard feelings, and nothing personal (as was never meant to be implied, if only by 'tone').

[leviburns89]

Thank you Cstrickland for approaching me with respect, and not acting like another "keyboard gangster".

You provided useful insight, instead of useless banter.

I was merely trying to share what I have read from published studies by groups of dozens of scientists that have dedicated their entire lives to try and understand the oceans and their findings.

My bad if everything written pre-2006 should be disregarded.

I guess the real issue, is true scientific research in the last 10 years has completely given up on saltwater, and the relation to our hobby.

But I must plug once more and say TTM isn't practical with a fully stocked tank.

Most hobbyists overstock tanks, and the average tank size reefers go for, of 120g, can have as many as 20-30 fish. This means 20 QT's??? How can that possibly be a solution?

If you stick them all into 1 or 2 clean QT, the parasite will simply jump hosts until it kills everything.

[leviburns89]

wrong
This is exactly the banter I speak of.

If you can't do what I do, with apparently "wrong" information with decades of research to say otherwise, please just sit back and watch the show.

I don't mind being the show pony, as long as someone learns something in the end.

[mr.feebles]

'keyboard gangster'. heh.

while i do like the term (humorous), no such thing was intended, as i posted above.

:)

[jminick2]

This is exactly the banter I speak of.

If you can't do what I do, with apparently "wrong" information with decades of research to say otherwise, please just sit back and watch the show.

I don't mind being the show pony, as long as someone learns something in the end.


Feel free to do a simple search I've stated many facts about Ich through out these forums. I'm thinking you don't know where the search button is though. With all the bad information you are spreading.

You say all everyone is doing is repeating each other so you come in and say the opposite and I guess that makes you right???? Get outta here, this is a place where people come for good info not garbage.

[leviburns89]

And to be fare mr.feebles, there is plenty of research to promote the use of a multivitamin in the human body. The medical and insurance industry has monopolized the argument against that tho. Keep you coming back for those oxys.

But I won't open that can of worms, the Gerson family cracked that one wide open in the 30's, and I personally have had deadly ailments cured holistically to prove their point.

But I DO respect your opinion, and will use it accordingly in the future on my posts.

[leviburns89]

Feel free to do a simple search I've stated many facts about Ich through out these forums. I'm thinking you don't know where the search button is though. With all the bad information you are spreading.

You say all everyone is doing is repeating each other so you come in and say the opposite and I guess that makes you right???? Get outta here, this is a place where people come for good info not garbage.
Lol, just lol

[jminick2]

lol, just lol

lol

[mr.feebles]

anyone interested in how crypto (ich) actually lives and works, should read this:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

one of the better treatises on the subject at hand ;)

[leviburns89]

lol
At least we are on the same page.

3 years experience

[gone fishin]

I tried to stay out, so here goes.

IMO your correct in your assertion that a heavily stocked tank that has ich is incredibly difficult to treat.

Now, Ich is not in every body of water and for this discussion lets just keep it to our tanks. The only way for ich to get into the tank is to be introduced to the tank. This is most commonly done by fish.

If one was to assume a new fish has ich upon purchase. Then placed the fish into a treatment protocol such as TTM, copper or hyposalinty then upon completion of the protocol it reasonable to assume there is no ich. After the complete QT protocol is completed then the fish is placed in the DT, no ich in the DT.

If this procedure is followed for each fish then the chances of getting ich into a DT is slim. As a result the likelihood of having to treat a fully stocked tank is also slim.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[jminick2]

At least we are on the same page.

3 years experience

SMH, apparently I pushed some buttons. Don't be mad I hope you are ok. I'll end this here.

[mr.feebles]

And to be fare mr.feebles, there is plenty of research to promote the use of a multivitamin in the human body. The medical and insurance industry has monopolized the argument against that tho. Keep you coming back for those oxys.

But I won't open that can of worms, the Gerson family cracked that one wide open in the 30's, and I personally have had deadly ailments cured holistically to prove their point.

But I DO respect your opinion, and will use it accordingly in the future on my posts.

i'll beg to differ w/ your 1st sentence. there is lots of evidence that we need vitamins.

that says nothing about whether or not taking a multivitamin is beneficial, or that it accomplishes anything. most of the vitamin 'b' in a pill you swallow, goes right out your body, e.g..

if you don't mind my asking, what specific vitamin deficiency did you have?

and, having an open mind, i'd really appreciate it if you could point me to a scientific study of multivitamin effects long term on humans that shows a verifiable benefit. i've been looking for one for yrs., to no avail. if the evidence is there, i'll certainly change my stance. :)

[brianr24]

I believe that with quarantine and TTM u can have an ich free DT. But can't ich be introduced from the shell of a snail or. Crab or even a frag plug?

[gone fishin]

Nuts, I always forget something.

If someone was to decide to forego any sort of QT protocol prior to stocking their DT and ended up with ich then things are more complicated. The choices then are to remove the fish, treat and leave the tank fishless for 72 days. The other option is to try and manage the ich. This is accomplished by good water chemistry and nutrition to keep the fish as healthy as possible.

Just my 2 cents

[gone fishin]

I believe that with quarantine and TTM u can have an ich free DT. But can't ich be introduced from the shell of a snail or. Crab or even a frag plug?

It is a possibility and has happened to some folks. Some folks will QT anything wet to prevent this. Others weigh the risk and deem it a slim chance. This does not mean that one should not at least dip their corals. There are some real nasties that can hitch a ride in on them.

[CStrickland]

But since you asked,,
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/m/#publication?id=FA164


anyone interested in how crypto (ich) actually lives and works, should read this:
http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164


This forum is pretty funny sometimes

[gone fishin]

This forum is funny sometimes

It sure is C

[sde1500]

Lol that it is. Though I think it serves mr.feebles point better. Since it does advocate for TTM

[mr.feebles]

some people are very easily amused, evidently...

[CStrickland]

some people are very easily amused, evidently...