Pseudochromis harem groups - a totally different side of dottybacks

[ThRoewer]

When I kept my Pseudochromis fridmani as a pair there was always some hacking and chasing going on and each was hanging out in its own corner. After I added another two to the mix the behavior changed radically. Often they hang out mostly peacefully together (sometimes a bit disciplining seems to be required :D) and even if some go away from the group, they always come back within minutes.
I just let the videos tell the story.

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Feeding time:
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The next species I plan to try this with will be Pseudochromis aldabraensis (neon dottyback)

[Winwood]

I recently just tried this with 5 fridmani, and it seemed to work well until they became of breeding age. Once females started getting egg laden the dynamic changed substantially. The group became a lot more quarrelsome. So much so, they essentially picked each other off one by one. I only have 1 left sadly from all the squabbling.

[ThRoewer]

My largest female and the male are definitely breeding. And the next female in line is also definitely of breeding age.

[ThRoewer]

Still all doing fine and hanging out together. Some spawning behavior is also going on.

I recently just tried this with 5 fridmani, and it seemed to work well until they became of breeding age. Once females started getting egg laden the dynamic changed substantially. The group became a lot more quarrelsome. So much so, they essentially picked each other off one by one. I only have 1 left sadly from all the squabbling.

I suppose you started with a group of juveniles, all the same size? In that situation you will have fights until one has become the male. I found it best to start with two of clearly different size to get a pair. I would also just start with a pair when setting up a group. After the pair has established who is who (ideally this is done not in the tank you want to establish the group in) and is spawning you can get a few more smaller - ideally also with a clear hierarchy among themselves.

[Moort82]

Not kept a group but did have a pair of indigo (Sankey X fridmani) and they did well for years breeding constantly. One day I found the male stick thin and docile. It wasn't long before the female went for it and I had to intervene. I couldn't save it but it showed how brutal even one of the more peaceful species can be.
I think what happened was the male just lost condition after all the egg care it does, as they are extremely good parents, and then when it lost condition the female was no longer put in her place and began to transition into a male. She is now a he and has bee for the last couple of years.
I love the dynamic that keeping more than one gives and dottys are just cool in general.

[ThRoewer]

I don't know how old they get, but in my experience males get stressed out a lot in a pair. But I found that my male is now much more relaxed in the group setting - he only needs to keep the largest female in her place, she deals with the next in line and so on. It also keeps the females busy with themselves which in turn takes stress off the male.

[Big E]

How long have you had this current group together?

[Moort82]

Females can live over 10 years based on my springers (well I say female but it could be male, not sure if they need stimulation to turn, it is obviously never had to go through the rigours of breeding). The now male indigo is 6-7 and it's been on its own a few years. I think it is the near constant egg care (as well as the massive energy input) that takes it out of the male and shortens it's life (though I did raise several hundred of his offspring) in the same way it seems to with kauderns.
interestEd to see if after a few years you male gets worn out and then the largest female takes over, moving them all up the hierarchy.

[ThRoewer]

How long have you had this current group together?

The base pair is together for a year now. The other two have been together for maybe 3 months (and it seems the larger female didn't yet turn male).
In the new tank they are now all together for a few weeks. All females look fat by now as if they get ready to lay eggs.

The one thing I noticed immediately when putting them all together was the reduction of aggression and that they all hang out together a lot.
I would have expected the aggression to go down in a much larger tank but rather expected them to disperse over the tank and each stake out its own territory.
Instead they like hanging out together. Sometimes one or two venture away for an exploration trip, but they always return rather quickly.

[Big E]

It would be great to get some updates on this as the months go by.

I didn't think these were harem species, if not it would seem more of them just tolerating each other. I know the tank bred psuedos seem to be less aggressive......is that what you have?

I remember seeing plenty of different tank bred species in one tank get along fine. With wild ones it was a death match.

[ThRoewer]

These are tank bred, but I wouldn't expect much different behavior with wild as long as you can get enough females.

In the wild dottybacks live in harem groups. Fridmani have been observed in groups of up to 8 individuals.

I plan on keeping this updated. So far there are no signs that they may go their own ways. Especially during feedings they like to gang up.

[ThRoewer]

The fridmani spawned today, but the clump of eggs must have been blown away by the flow during the blast flow period. They got caught on a coral frag:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=344574&stc=1&d=1457598172

[ThRoewer]

I feel the 4 are getting closer with time. Especially during feedings they appear as a pretty closed group. This may be in part due to the little a**hole (Starcki damsel) who tries to chase them away during feedings.
But also at other times they seek each other to hand out together.
There are some disciplinary nose pokes but no fighting or aggression.
And at a minimum 3 of the 4 are fully mature and spawning.
All the ones I had before as pairs were way more aggressive to each other.

[ThRoewer]

Found one female dead, but no evidence if it was murder or an accident. I didn't see any fighting among the dottybacks. All attacks I've seen came from the damsel.
The two remaining females continue to hang out together.

The male isn't showing either at the moment, but he likely sits on a nest.

I'm gonna get a replacement and maybe some extras as soon as I have the QT space available.

[ThRoewer]

I'm down to two. The smallest and the largest are gone.

But I'm near certain that they were not killed by the remaining two or any other fish in the tank for that matter.

My top suspects are the APEX WAV pumps. I've noticed today that the fridmani like to squeeze through the grid to get inside them while they are off. I knew that they did the same previously with the Jebao pumps, but I thought that they wouldn't fit through the tighter grid of the WAV pumps - obviously that was a wrong assumption.
Unfortunately the APEX doesn't allow to let the pumps run on a low idle speed to keep them out :headwally:

[ThRoewer]

I'm down to one now - the female I had for over a year is missing since yesterday. The day before she was still out and fine.

My prime suspects are the pumps - a few days earlier she was way too interested in them.
I need to find a way to keep these stupid fish from swimming into the pumps when they are off.

[ThRoewer]

The last one disappeared sometime this week.
At this point I'm convinced that the pumps are the culprits. These fish are nosy and like to explore small openings. When the pumps turn off for a while they like to explore them and may get shredded when the pump restarts.

Not sure if I will add these guys to this tank again.

[ThRoewer]

Gonna give these guys another shot:

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[Michael Hoaster]

I am considering doing a harem of four Fridmani Basslets in my 180. I built a fake wall with numerous holes to accommodate a harem of Royal Grammas. It worked very well for them, so I hope it'll work for fridmanis too. I like that you can get them captive-bred.

I look forward to reading your progress! Good luck!

[ThRoewer]

I am considering doing a harem of four Fridmani Basslets in my 180. I built a fake wall with numerous holes to accommodate a harem of Royal Grammas. It worked very well for them, so I hope it'll work for fridmanis too. I like that you can get them captive-bred.

I look forward to reading your progress! Good luck!

I have mine with a small fake wall for now and it works, so with a larger one it should work even better.

If you get captive bred make sure to get them from Sea & Reef as they are perfect. The ORA ones I had before had some deformations.
And make sure to get all but one as small ones that are still clearly female (rounded tailfin). The male ("sword" tailfin) should be a little bigger than the females.

[Chasmodes]

Very cool concept! Your tanks inspire me to almost duplicate them, between this tank and your BSJ tank! These fish have so much personality, and they're very graceful in a group too, almost mesmerizing. I will be following along for sure.

[ThRoewer]

I am considering doing a harem of four Fridmani Basslets in my 180. I built a fake wall with numerous holes to accommodate a harem of Royal Grammas. It worked very well for them, so I hope it'll work for fridmanis too. I like that you can get them captive-bred.

I look forward to reading your progress! Good luck!

BTW, like Grammas or Assessors these guys swim often with their bellies turned towards the nearest wall even if it is the ceiling of an overhang.

[ThRoewer]

Moved them to the 100 gallon tank:

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The (potential) male and 3 of the females remained together while the 4th and smallest female got separated from the group and went into hiding somewhere near the gigantea... I hope she survives that.

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[Chasmodes]

Cool videos. They are so graceful especially in their harem.

Is that a comet grouper in with them? Are you worried about him making snacks out of your dottybacks? Or, do they get along OK?

[ThRoewer]

Cool videos. They are so graceful especially in their harem.

Is that a comet grouper in with them? Are you worried about him making snacks out of your dottybacks? Or, do they get along OK?There are actually two marine betta in that tank. Calloplesiops only eat shrimp but not fish. I tried and wouldn't even touch frozen fish as long as it is still recognizable as fish. Their whole hunting strategy is tailored towards shrimp and not well suited to catch fish.
The ones that may eat tiny fish are members of the Plesiops genus. They are ambush predators who dart out of their hole to snatch whatever comes by. I got a pair of those in my predators tank.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Chasmodes]

Ah, I see. Very interesting!!!! Learn something every day!!!

[Michael Hoaster]

Clearly you know your stuff. Chapeau!

I also saw a Royal Gramma in there. How many of those? Do they get along well with the Fridmanis? Also are the marine bettas a mated pair?

[ThRoewer]

Clearly you know your stuff. Chapeau!

I also saw a Royal Gramma in there. How many of those? Do they get along well with the Fridmanis? Also are the marine bettas a mated pair?

There are 3 Gramma in the tank, a spawning pair and possibly a subservient male that looks like a female but acts like a male towards the female.

At the beginning, when the Fridmani were new to the tank, there was a little chasing from the Gramma. But by now they have found an arrangement and get along.
Among the Fridmani there is still some bickering as they negotiate their hierarchy and claim their caves. As a result some of them look a bit like plucked chickens. But so far I haven't seen actual fighting, and when out in the open they gang up without showing hostility towards each other. So my suspicion is that the "fights" are primarily over caves.

The Marine Betta are so far just 2 females. I'm waiting to see if the larger of the two changes sex, but she may still be too small for that. In the past I just picked male and female to get pairs and that worked every time. But this time I want to test the theory that they change sex.

[Michael Hoaster]

Cool beans! I'll be following. I too love to keep multiple specimens of species, to bring out their natural behaviors and spawning. If I can ever get my QT up to snuff, I hope to try several more groups.

What are you referring to with the one gramma looking like a female but acting like a male? I didn't think the sexes were discernible. Do you mean it is smaller like a female but acts like a larger male?

[ThRoewer]

What are you referring to with the one gramma looking like a female but acting like a male? I didn't think the sexes were discernible. Do you mean it is smaller like a female but acts like a larger male?

There are actually some morphological and coloration differences I noticed between males and females.
Dominant males have significantly longer ventral fins. Unfortunately, this isn't a reliable indicator as fins often get damaged during capture, shipping, and in fights, and not always regrow fully.
Males also have a more slender body shape.
Females on the other hand have shorter ventral fins, are usually smaller, and have a fuller body shape.

But there seems to be also a subtle color difference:
Males have silver metallic shining scales on their sides in the transition zone between the purple and yellow. My dominant male has this very pronounced while the subordinate male has only a few of those metallic shining scales. The female has none.

The most convincing evidence to me is the behavior. The subordinate male keeps as much distance as possible to the dominant male. Both males demonstrate courtship behavior towards the female, but the dominant male never demonstrates any courtship behavior towards the subordinate male. Whenever they meet the dominant male demonstrates who is the boss, but it never goes to actual fighting.