matrix/siporax vs carbon dosing for sps

[tboneman]

I've noticed quite a few sps tanks using ceramic media such as seachem matrix or siporax to control nitrate and phosphate as opposed to carbon dosing like vodka or vinegar. Is there a specific reason for this? Do sps thrive better with ceramic media?

[R_Mc]

Why not both? Carbon dosing just fuels bacterial colonization. With a good media to colonize (matrix / sip) carbon dosing would be even more effective.

Once I added a marine pure block I had to drop my vinegar dosing from 30ml to 5 just to keep my nitrates from staying completely bottomed out.

[las]

This matrix/block controls both phosphate and nitrate?

[tboneman]

Actually so does carbon dosing. Would the ceramic media be a less harsh way to control nitrate and phosphate?

[tboneman]

Less side effects like cyano?

[nemodan]

This matrix/block controls both phosphate and nitrate?


The bacteria that lives in it is the one that does the job. Mainly anaerobic bacteria (denitrification bacterias). They,are substrate, like rocks. They provide real state for Bacterias to grow.

Carbon dosing CAN NOT be compared. Carbon dosing is a method to feed the Bacterias.

[las]

The bacteria that lives in it is the one that does the job. Mainly anaerobic bacteria (denitrification bacterias). They,are substrate, like rocks. They provide real state for Bacterias to grow.

Carbon dosing CAN NOT be compared. Carbon dosing is a method to feed the Bacterias.

Ok, I apologizing for being unclear with my question. Here goes again.

Does the bacteria that is colonizing the marine pure block matrix lower both phosphate AND nitrate much the same way as the bacteria does when using bio pellets? Or does the bacteria in the marine pure block matrix function more like live rock and stop short of processing phosphate but does indeed perform nitrate removal?

Thank you for your help

[las]

Tbone-
I've noticed the same trend with the marine pure blocks. According to their website the amount of surface area in one block of 8x8x4 marine pure is enormous. I'm following ur thread to get more info. Thanks for bringing it up

[tboneman]

Any more insight or comments as to why matrix/siporax seems to be gaining more popularity in controlling nitrate/phosphate than other methods?

[sahin]

Any more insight or comments as to why matrix/siporax seems to be gaining more popularity in controlling nitrate/phosphate than other methods?

Firstly because it is easy and there arent really any negatives to matrix/siporax; the bacterial population is self regulating/determined by nutrient levels. Its a set in place and forget kind of thing.

Secondly, perhaps because more and more reefers are moving away from the "need to have very low PO4 and NO3" idea. I dont utilise PO4 remover in my tank; and the tank maintains PO4 around 0.03ppm

With other methods there is the need to keep within limits (ie Alk) or in the case of Zeovit, very strict limits over a range of parameters or else STN results.

So overall, its a relatively maintenance and problem free, set and forget method which works.

[reefmutt]

Ok, I apologizing for being unclear with my question. Here goes again.

Does the bacteria that is colonizing the marine pure block matrix lower both phosphate AND nitrate much the same way as the bacteria does when using bio pellets? Or does the bacteria in the marine pure block matrix function more like live rock and stop short of processing phosphate but does indeed perform nitrate removal?

Thank you for your help

I have always been of the understanding that the porous medias like matrix provide the perfect environment for de nitrifying bacteria and therefor have a significant impact on nitrate.
I am not so sure what effect these medias- or the bacteria that colonize them- have on po4. Surely some reducing effect..
Granted, any system where food is being added is to a certain degree, 'Carbon dosing' the tank and will be feeding all the various forms of nutrient reducing bacteria..
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think las is correct in his assumption.

[tripdad]

I have always been of the understanding that the porous medias like matrix provide the perfect environment for de nitrifying bacteria and therefor have a significant impact on nitrate.


I believe this to be the case as it is the same bacteria already living in your existing live rock and sandbed.

[las]

Firstly because it is easy and there arent really any negatives to matrix/siporax; the bacterial population is self regulating/determined by nutrient levels. Its a set in place and forget kind of thing.

Secondly, perhaps because more and more reefers are moving away from the "need to have very low PO4 and NO3" idea. I dont utilise PO4 remover in my tank; and the tank maintains PO4 around 0.03ppm

With other methods there is the need to keep within limits (ie Alk) or in the case of Zeovit, very strict limits over a range of parameters or else STN results.

So overall, its a relatively maintenance and problem free, set and forget method which works.

Great point made here.

[tboneman]

Thanks for all the great input! Much appreciated.

[las]

So does anyone have a preference between these three in regards to effectiveness?

Marine pure?
Seachem matrix?
Siporax?

[reefmutt]

You should check out the matrix/siporax thread. It has lots of good info..
It has been established that siporax is the best. It has the highest porosity and therefore can harbor the greatest amount of bacteria per weight..
Seachem Matrix comes a close second and for the money, may be more economical.
The marine pure is apparently a distant competitor to these first two..

[las]

Are they both made of the same material?

[reefmutt]

Not sure but I don't think so..

[organism]

So does anyone have a preference between these three in regards to effectiveness?

Marine pure?
Seachem matrix?
Siporax?

Are they both made of the same material?

Different materials, I prefer Siporax because it's made of glass as opposed to ceramic on the others. I used Marine Pure and got high aluminum levels so switched over to Siporax since it's non-reactive glass. Also it's more porous with smaller pores so denitrifying bacteria can colonize. The pore size on the smaller Marine Pure balls/blocks are too big for denitrifying bacteria since water passes too far through/into them, essentially making them nitrate factories which is something else I had issues with before switching to Siporax.

[las]

Is seachem matrix made of pumice? I didn't hear that it was ceramic.

what is pumice made of?

[Rybren]

Pumice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumice) is volcanic rock.

[las]

Is there any chance that the volcanic rock/pomace (matrix) can be dissolving minerals that are good for coral growth/coloration?

[Pife]

Is there any chance that the volcanic rock/pomace (matrix) can be dissolving minerals that are good for coral growth/coloration?

If it is, it's not effecting some of the best tanks on this forum.

[las]

I'm not understanding your reply.... Are you saying that some of the best tanks on here, that are trying matrix, aren't seeing any benefit if matrix is dissolving beneficial minerals into the reef water?

[dendrite]

Is there any chance that the volcanic rock/pomace (matrix) can be dissolving minerals that are good for coral growth/coloration?

On the other hand the pumice can contain entrapped gases, heavy metals , and anything else that might be burped up in molten lava from the Earth's mantle. I went with Siporax.

[reefmutt]

I don't know for sure, but I am fairly certain that siporax and matrix are not leaching anything into the water and that they are inert.
I am very much less sure that volcanic rock wouldn't be leaching something..

[Pife]

I'm not understanding your reply.... Are you saying that some of the best tanks on here, that are trying matrix, aren't seeing any benefit if matrix is dissolving beneficial minerals into the reef water?

Your previous post was difficult to follow for me. . I thought you meant that the matrix was absorbing (dissolving) key elements.

[las]

Sorry... I was just wondering. Some people are having such good results that made me wonder if there was something else going on besides large surface area

[gregkn73]

I don't know for sure, but I am fairly certain that siporax and matrix are not leaching anything into the water and that they are inert.
I am very much less sure that volcanic rock wouldn't be leaching something..
I thought that matrix is just "selected"....pumice!

[Mael]

Matrix is a blown glass material, inert and very porous. The success comes from matrix and siporax haven't the best surface for bacterial growth, more so than live rock does since it is purpose made for this.

[Pife]

Matrix is a blown glass material, inert and very porous. The success comes from matrix and siporax haven't the best surface for bacterial growth, more so than live rock does since it is purpose made for this.

What?

[Naptalene]

Think it's a type-o...
Should read "have the best surface area....."

Can someone chime in on this for me.... I always thought that you get your tank stable with L/R and then fine tune your final no3/po4 with carbon dosing to get it exactly where you want it.

So siporax/ matrix give you a fantastic media for tons of bacteria in a small space - win for our pockets and especially for very minimalist displays.

Now I start Carbon dosing ( if needed) are the bacteria feeding on the carbon source the same as the bacteria on the siporax/matrix? Can they outcompete the siporax/matrix colonies?

Thanks - I've been reading all these threads and picked up that gaping hole in my understanding.

[nemodan]

Think it's a type-o...
Should read "have the best surface area....."

Can someone chime in on this for me.... I always thought that you get your tank stable with L/R and then fine tune your final no3/po4 with carbon dosing to get it exactly where you want it.

So siporax/ matrix give you a fantastic media for tons of bacteria in a small space - win for our pockets and especially for very minimalist displays.

Now I start Carbon dosing ( if needed) are the bacteria feeding on the carbon source the same as the bacteria on the siporax/matrix? Can they outcompete the siporax/matrix colonies?

Thanks - I've been reading all these threads and picked up that gaping hole in my understanding.

Ok.... as it has been said many times. Matrix or Siporax are just a HOUSE for bacterias. There's no competition with any other HOUSE for Bacterias (i.e. rocks). You can add a ton of Matrix / siporax if you want. Only the amount of Bacterias needed by the,tank will growth, and that will be related,with the food they have to growth. You can increase the population by carbon dosing, if you want. All your Bacterias in the tank will feed from carbon dosing, doesn't mater where they live.

I hope this help.

Best
Daniel

[Naptalene]

Thanks, but if you read my post that's not what I was asking.

Are the bacteria floating in the water column the same as the population on the rock? No point loading up on LR/matrix/siporax if the water column bacteria outcompete the rock and it serves less purpose than. Then it's a waste of space and money if you carbon dose heavily.

[Reefvet]

Are the bacteria floating in the water column the same as the population on the rock?

Some are, some aren't.



No point loading up on LR/matrix/siporax if the water column bacteria outcompete the rock and it serves less purpose than. Then it's a waste of space and money if you carbon dose heavily.

The majority of the denitrification in your reef tank takes place on the rock or other surfaces supporting aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Very little takes place in the water column.

Siporax is sintered glass, molded to create an efficient water flow over it's surface. It's roughly 37 times as efficient at hosting necessary bacteria as live rock.

Bacteria don't 'compete.' Their population is in constant transition due to many variables in your tank. Carbon dosing is a way to stimulate the growth of a larger population of beneficial bacteria that consume nitrates along with the carbon.

[Naptalene]

Thank you.

I always thought we skimmed out the bacteria that had consumed the nitrate thus removing it before it could breakdown?

If most of that bacteria are on surfaces how does it get to the skimmer?

[Naptalene]

Oh goodness.....
I think the penny dropped.
You hike the bacteria population so that it balances out the input of nitrate/po4 etc. and the system is in balance.

I thought you skimmed heavily to remove bacteria that was in the column before it died and thus released it back.

Have I got it?

[Reefvet]

Thank you.

I always thought we skimmed out the bacteria that had consumed the nitrate thus removing it before it could breakdown?

If most of that bacteria are on surfaces how does it get to the skimmer?

Skimming is one way we remove dissolved organic compounds, bacteria being one of the primary DOCs.

Bacteria are not static and are constantly reproducing, again the population fluctuates relative to the nitrogen sources they need to live. The bacteria colonize on porous surfaces, live rock and synthetic media like Siporax and their denisty is greatest there but they move throughout the water column.

Here's a good article (http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/8/chemistry) on nitrates in the reef aquarium.

[Naptalene]

Thanks to both of you for your time.
Ill go through the link.

[russ13]

Questions
1: does having a deep sand bed give you the same area for large groups of bacteria to grow?
2: will they collect detritus and become a nitrate factory if not cleaned on a regular basis?
3: would they work better in an area that is well oxygenated the same way bio balls work??
4: has anyone had any experience having them leaking aluminum into the tank??

[DiscusHeckel]

Skimming is one way we remove dissolved organic compounds, bacteria being one of the primary DOCs.


Thanks Reefvet.

I also rely on GAC,m which is another way we remove DOCs. Some say that GAC is more efficient than skimming.

[Piper27]

Bacteria fed from carbon dosing, I thought, is a large part of a tanks bacteria levels and a large part of it being in the water column. Or am I wrong? I see this thread becoming confusing for some very soon :)

[moatdaddy]

I have never dosed vodka or any other carbon source to beef up my bacteria levels. I have always let them increase or decrease off my bioload. I understand that you can inflate your levels by carbon dosing but how can that help if most housing for bacteria does not induce nitrate removal.

Two questions.

1. Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrates. Correct? If that is the case how do we get Nitrates to release via gas exchange? That is the end goal correct, to get nitrates to bubble out of our tanks naturally. Based on product descriptions, matrix, siporax, and most of marine pure do not advertise as being nitrate removers. They advertise as being hosting places for bacteria. Marine pure 8x8x4 blocks advertise as removing nitrates, and in my system i believe that to be true. I cannot get my nitrates to read above 0, my phosphates yup. So if the majority of these products say the DO NOT remove nitrates, how is it people think that increasing the bacteria population via carbon dosing will remove nitrates.

2. I decide i want to increase bacteria population. I start feeding carbon source of my choice, Vodka!! Population increases due to a new food source allowing it to. Is the extra population going to do a better than job than before because there are extra hungry mouths to feed? Next come the die off of these said bacteria. When they die what do they convert to? Ammonia to begin with as they decay? If so havent you just set up your tank for failure? If you miss a feeding during the life cycle of these bacteria, ie you feed vodka for 3 weeks every day 3 times a day, and then stopped. How would the surviving bacteria process the dead ones and the current tank bio load? I know a lot of tanks in cycle go through a bacteria bloom, there has to be die off so i am not too concerned about this one. Yet it does seem to pose a potential hazard if someone stopped carbon dosing suddenly. Of course this is all a theory. I have heard of many tanks carbon dosing with success.


As i said before I have never dosed carbon because i dont see the science behind it, I do have matrix, and marinepure. I will never start another tank without them and would recommend them, especially the marinepure block to anyone who asks.

Brandon

[Naptalene]

I have not had a chance to read it, but the opening paragraph would appear to be very on point for my queries.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2011/3/aafeature

[ndolf]

How do we compare efficiencies at hosting necessary bacteria?

Some are, some aren't.




The majority of the denitrification in your reef tank takes place on the rock or other surfaces supporting aerobic and anaerobic bacteria. Very little takes place in the water column.

Siporax is sintered glass, molded to create an efficient water flow over it's surface. It's roughly 37 times as efficient at hosting necessary bacteria as live rock.

Bacteria don't 'compete.' Their population is in constant transition due to many variables in your tank. Carbon dosing is a way to stimulate the growth of a larger population of beneficial bacteria that consume nitrates along with the carbon.

[reefmutt]

I have never dosed vodka or any other carbon source to beef up my bacteria levels. I have always let them increase or decrease off my bioload. I understand that you can inflate your levels by carbon dosing but how can that help if most housing for bacteria does not induce nitrate removal.

Two questions.

1. Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrates. Correct? If that is the case how do we get Nitrates to release via gas exchange? That is the end goal correct, to get nitrates to bubble out of our tanks naturally. Based on product descriptions, matrix, siporax, and most of marine pure do not advertise as being nitrate removers. They advertise as being hosting places for bacteria. Marine pure 8x8x4 blocks advertise as removing nitrates, and in my system i believe that to be true. I cannot get my nitrates to read above 0, my phosphates yup. So if the majority of these products say the DO NOT remove nitrates, how is it people think that increasing the bacteria population via carbon dosing will remove nitrates.

2. I decide i want to increase bacteria population. I start feeding carbon source of my choice, Vodka!! Population increases due to a new food source allowing it to. Is the extra population going to do a better than job than before because there are extra hungry mouths to feed? Next come the die off of these said bacteria. When they die what do they convert to? Ammonia to begin with as they decay? If so havent you just set up your tank for failure? If you miss a feeding during the life cycle of these bacteria, ie you feed vodka for 3 weeks every day 3 times a day, and then stopped. How would the surviving bacteria process the dead ones and the current tank bio load? I know a lot of tanks in cycle go through a bacteria bloom, there has to be die off so i am not too concerned about this one. Yet it does seem to pose a potential hazard if someone stopped carbon dosing suddenly. Of course this is all a theory. I have heard of many tanks carbon dosing with success.


As i said before I have never dosed carbon because i dont see the science behind it, I do have matrix, and marinepure. I will never start another tank without them and would recommend them, especially the marinepure block to anyone who asks.

Brandon

Brandon, the answers to your questions are also here:
Dosing nitrate to reduce phosphate.. It explains the interactions of bacteria and Carbon sources..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2210947
It would be well worth your while to read this thread. It will give you a much deep understanding of how your reef works on a bacterial level.

[SeargentSlice]

So I just received 20l of pond matrix.... I have 100g stock tank for a sump running approx 400 gph through it.. Was going to make mesh crates to house it in... Or would it be better off in a diy up flow canister filter or down flow trickle type ?
Thx

[kevlow]

So I just received 20l of pond matrix.... I have 100g stock tank for a sump running approx 400 gph through it.. Was going to make mesh crates to house it in... Or would it be better off in a diy up flow canister filter or down flow trickle type ?
Thx

I use both matrix and carbon [NP Pro] with Pro Bio S. The Matrix is very effective just in a basket with low flow. It just needs to be kept clear of detritus. Together with the carbon source, I must feed heavy just to maintain any nitrates in the tank.

[SeargentSlice]

I use both matrix and carbon [NP Pro] with Pro Bio S. The Matrix is very effective just in a basket with low flow. It just needs to be kept clear of detritus. Together with the carbon source, I must feed heavy just to maintain any nitrates in the tank.
Oh that's good to hear that'll save me some time not constructing a canister... Not to mention running a pump and have another piece of equipment to clean.. I dose pro bio S and pro bio F ... Np pro triggers Cyano in my system..

[4ddiction]

I run siporax in a reactor and biomedia plate in my sump. In addition i run a recirculating biopellet reactor and have great success.

[bif24701]

MarinePure Block and NOPOX, works great!


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[mocika]

MarinePure Block and NOPOX, works great!


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Im using nopox and have 0 No3 and 0.06 Po4. If i up dosing nopox there is no point coz there will be no No3 present in the sistem. What should i do to reduce Po4 and to have balance. Adding No3 via NaNo3 or remove Po4 with Rowaphos.

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[reefmutt]

Im using nopox and have 0 No3 and 0.06 Po4. If i up dosing nopox there is no point coz there will be no No3 present in the sistem. What should i do to reduce Po4 and to have balance. Adding No3 via NaNo3 or remove Po4 with Rowaphos.

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That's a debatable question but I'd say adding nitrate would be more effective, efficient and less expensive.
And if your system is truly nitrate limited, I have found that gfo won't work that well anyways.

[bigzman]

I had 2 liters of siporax after some research on my 330 but after seeing the cost of siporax (more large pond version) I also added 4liters of seachem pond matrix in a lower flow area of my sump.
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w24/bigzman_photos/New%20Reef%20Build/20161222_215745_zps1qtchxbc.jpg
After 3 months of nitrates being in the 80 range I ran carbon and 2 liters siporax and 4 liters pond matrix. not until the second month did it really start to come down. I run socks so detritus build up is very minimal. I also have it in 1 liter bags so I can pull them and shake them and loosen any build up.

I now use 6 liters of regular matrix:
http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w24/bigzman_photos/New%20Reef%20Build/20170109_220412_zpsxv1cc2o8.jpg

Nitrates are still over 5 but considering were I started and the fact that I have cutoff carbon I am happy with results. I now have 4 more liters of pond matrix for a total of 8 liters of pond matrix 6 liters of regular matrix and 2 liters of the smellier Siporax.

http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w24/bigzman_photos/New%20Reef%20Build/20170109_200800_zpssjzv3n8n.jpg

At this point I am sticking with matrix and here is why.
Seachem claims higher surface area vs marine pure vs siporax.
It's readily available and cheaper
I have been using it in my discus tank for over 6 years.
Also none of these media are good at buffering like live rock but pumice is a natural stone vs something that is mafacutred siporax and marine pure. Leaching has not been reported.

[reefmutt]

Hey, it worked like a charm! No explanation needed.
Do you want to get nitrates even lower?

[bigzman]

Not really. Just want to stay off carbon.

[gus6464]

I was battling high nitrate (30-35ppm) that even a 50% water change didn't solve. It was basically because I was running my brightwell bio brick suspended in wet/dry config so my rate of nitrification was super high and my anaerobic bacteria couldn't keep up as that was all I had.

I ordered the brightwell xport no3 brick version as that one is coated in sulfur which is supposed to aid in anaerobic bacteria growth. I seeded it per instructions overnight in a loaf pan with saltwater and half a bottle of mb7. Next morning I put the block in the tank in a low flow area as directed. Tested no3 before I put in and it was 30ppm. Also put some nopox in the sump to feed the bacteria.

I kid you not the next morning (24 hours later) I tested my nitrate and it was 1. I tested it twice to make sure and same result. Now I just run both blocks, one suspended in the air with higher flow rate and the no3 one submerged with low flow. I feed tons and my no3 is staying constant at 5 which is where I want it.

[reefmutt]

I was battling high nitrate (30-35ppm) that even a 50% water change didn't solve. It was basically because I was running my brightwell bio brick suspended in wet/dry config so my rate of nitrification was super high and my anaerobic bacteria couldn't keep up as that was all I had.

I ordered the brightwell xport no3 brick version as that one is coated in sulfur which is supposed to aid in anaerobic bacteria growth. I seeded it per instructions overnight in a loaf pan with saltwater and half a bottle of mb7. Next morning I put the block in the tank in a low flow area as directed. Tested no3 before I put in and it was 30ppm. Also put some nopox in the sump to feed the bacteria.

I kid you not the next morning (24 hours later) I tested my nitrate and it was 1. I tested it twice to make sure and same result. Now I just run both blocks, one suspended in the air with higher flow rate and the no3 one submerged with low flow. I feed tons and my no3 is staying constant at 5 which is where I want it.
This is very interesting. I hadn't heard of that Brightwell's product. I'll check it out.
Thanks!

[bif24701]

Im using nopox and have 0 No3 and 0.06 Po4. If i up dosing nopox there is no point coz there will be no No3 present in the sistem. What should i do to reduce Po4 and to have balance. Adding No3 via NaNo3 or remove Po4 with Rowaphos.

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The moment I started adding nitrates to my system my PO4 dropped like a rock, just saying. Good luck.

[bigzman]

For those of you using these media are you still dosing a carbon source? I was hoping to stay off it and use my doser for other functions.

[kegogut]

I was battling high nitrate (30-35ppm) that even a 50% water change didn't solve. It was basically because I was running my brightwell bio brick suspended in wet/dry config so my rate of nitrification was super high and my anaerobic bacteria couldn't keep up as that was all I had.

I ordered the brightwell xport no3 brick version as that one is coated in sulfur which is supposed to aid in anaerobic bacteria growth. I seeded it per instructions overnight in a loaf pan with saltwater and half a bottle of mb7. Next morning I put the block in the tank in a low flow area as directed. Tested no3 before I put in and it was 30ppm. Also put some nopox in the sump to feed the bacteria.

I kid you not the next morning (24 hours later) I tested my nitrate and it was 1. I tested it twice to make sure and same result. Now I just run both blocks, one suspended in the air with higher flow rate and the no3 one submerged with low flow. I feed tons and my no3 is staying constant at 5 which is where I want it.

How big is your system? What is your bioload? Exactly where did you put it in your sump?

I have a brightwell bio and a No3 bright I added to my tank a while back and I didnt see any decrease in nitrates. I didnt seed mine though so I might try that.

[gus6464]

How big is your system? What is your bioload? Exactly where did you put it in your sump?

I have a brightwell bio and a No3 bright I added to my tank a while back and I didnt see any decrease in nitrates. I didnt seed mine though so I might try that.

40g display, 35g sump. The bio brick is suspended in air receiving medium-high flow. NO3 brick is next to my skimmer in a very low flow area. I basically put them where Jack Kent told me when I talked to him at MACNA. It was his idea to suspend the bio brick.

I have 9 fish. I feed 3 times a day. 2 times with frozen cubes and another with flakes. That's just my fish feeding. Then I do Fuel at night after lights out and then oyster feast in the morning before lights on. I also spot feed my elegance coralific delight twice a week.

As for nutrient export I have the no3 brick, a skimmer skimming super dry, and a big chaeto reactor. Before I added the no3 brick my skimmer and chaeto reactor couldn't keep up with the nitrification of the suspended bio brick. You can PM me and I can send you pictures of my entire setup to keep the thread clean.

[vlnemo]

40g display, 35g sump. The bio brick is suspended in air receiving medium-high flow. NO3 brick is next to my skimmer in a very low flow area. I basically put them where Jack Kent told me when I talked to him at MACNA. It was his idea to suspend the bio brick.

I have 9 fish. I feed 3 times a day. 2 times with frozen cubes and another with flakes. That's just my fish feeding. Then I do Fuel at night after lights out and then oyster feast in the morning before lights on. I also spot feed my elegance coralific delight twice a week.

As for nutrient export I have the no3 brick, a skimmer skimming super dry, and a big chaeto reactor. Before I added the no3 brick my skimmer and chaeto reactor couldn't keep up with the nitrification of the suspended bio brick. You can PM me and I can send you pictures of my entire setup to keep the thread clean.

Hello my friends.Ihave a120 gallon reef aquarium with soft corals mushrooms and few lps. For first time i put some hard corals. Ihave a big skimmer ati 250 , an Ats scrubber, i use carbon (vinegar 30ml every day) and vacteria biodigest and change water 3 times per month 15%. I feed a lot and my nitrate is20 always with salifert test, my po4 0 with salifert. Idont want to increace vinegar,so i am thinking for siporax or brightwell brick. I am afraid marine pure for leakage. Is it easy for you to send me some foto from your bricks? lanarasvasileios@gmail.com my mail. Thank you

[bif24701]

For those of you using these media are you still dosing a carbon source? I was hoping to stay off it and use my doser for other functions.



Yes, I add some vinegar to my Kalk ATO, I feel a little carbon addition will only help keep a healthy bacteria population. Also increases my Kalk concentration.


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[cwschoon]

A very interesting thread! I have a relatively new 120 and a nitrate problem. I put an Xport No3 dimpled brick in my sump at the end of February and my nitrates are in the 50ppm range. The system is relatively new-January-and has a massive amount of live rock, so it may just need time.
I did NOT seed my brick. I am actually, thinking of purchasing another brick and seeding them both with the recommended product.

[reefmutt]

Yes, I add some vinegar to my Kalk ATO, I feel a little carbon addition will only help keep a healthy bacteria population. Also increases my Kalk concentration.


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THis sounds like a good idea..
I have 6 liters of siporax, 10 liters of matrix and I just added 5 liters of AF biofil in an attempt to reduce my 40-50 ppm nitrate.p is in the .17 range.. I'm hoping the newly added biofil will help. Since my nutrient spike last October (when I removed cheato) the media has not helped at all. Been there for 6 months- except the biofil which just went in.
I've been dosing bacteria- Biodigest for the past 6 week but it hasn't helped so far...
I may have to put the cheato back and/or start some carbon dosing. Wanted to avoid cheato because it stopped growing in my system..

[Pife]

THis sounds like a good idea..
I have 6 liters of siporax, 10 liters of matrix and I just added 5 liters of AF biofil in an attempt to reduce my 40-50 ppm nitrate.p is in the .17 range.. I'm hoping the newly added biofil will help. Since my nutrient spike last October (when I removed cheato) the media has not helped at all. Been there for 6 months- except the biofil which just went in.
I've been dosing bacteria- Biodigest for the past 6 week but it hasn't helped so far...
I may have to put the cheato back and/or start some carbon dosing. Wanted to avoid cheato because it stopped growing in my system..


Remote deep sand bed? I'm thinking of one in my system if my new water volume doesn't help.

[reefmutt]

Remote deep sand bed? I'm thinking of one in my system if my new water volume doesn't help.

They've always worked for me, when large enough..
Took that out too.. maybe I should add one again! I just find that eventually hey starte contributing to nutrients instead of reducing.

[bif24701]

THis sounds like a good idea..

I have 6 liters of siporax, 10 liters of matrix and I just added 5 liters of AF biofil in an attempt to reduce my 40-50 ppm nitrate.p is in the .17 range.. I'm hoping the newly added biofil will help. Since my nutrient spike last October (when I removed cheato) the media has not helped at all. Been there for 6 months- except the biofil which just went in.

I've been dosing bacteria- Biodigest for the past 6 week but it hasn't helped so far...

I may have to put the cheato back and/or start some carbon dosing. Wanted to avoid cheato because it stopped growing in my system..



I'll tell you a little secret, cheato took my NO3 from 20ppm down to 5ppm in about 5 days once. I threw it out after adding Vibrant because it started melting away.

I'm certain though that with out a carbon source the bacteria that live on our media are carbon limited. When I refill my tank after going empty I notice everything seems to get extra pepp in their steps. PE also really goes nuts. Ever since discovering carbon dosing in 2009 I'll never go without it. Bacteria do so much in our enclosed systems they are literally the life support and everything else is there to support those little things we know almost nothing about. No one even discusses it, should have its own section. A person named Jason started looking at things through a microscope (not powerful enough to see bacteria) and what he discovers is there is an entire world of activity going on vital to the health of our system that we can not see gets totally ignored and we know nothing of what these micro fauna do. Work horse man, and we must keep them healthy. I love trying out new bacteria supplements, because they always seem to have a positive effect on the life. It's probably nothing more than just some extra biodiversity but it's vital. Truly we should be looking closer into our tanks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Pife]

They've always worked for me, when large enough..
Took that out too.. maybe I should add one again! I just find that eventually hey starte contributing to nutrients instead of reducing.

I am thinking of several containers and changing them out one at a time once a year or when needed.

[bigzman]

Too add to the long term part of this media. I eventually ran media with no added dosing to discover the bacteria can't reduce nitrate if there is nothing to feed it. After I reduced and stopped carbon dosing it was about 2 weeks after I ended up in 20ppm nitrate from 0. Started carbon source and now back to zero. Media seems to need a fuel source. So I am happy with media ability to remove nitrate it's only really effective with a food source. With out carbon, source bacteria dies and adds to nutrients. So next stop for me is to try export as well and continue media. I hav a fuge and wil be running that.

[Roggio]

Too add to the long term part of this media. I eventually ran media with no added dosing to discover the bacteria can't reduce nitrate if there is nothing to feed it. After I reduced and stopped carbon dosing it was about 2 weeks after I ended up in 20ppm nitrate from 0. Started carbon source and now back to zero. Media seems to need a fuel source. So I am happy with media ability to remove nitrate it's only really effective with a food source. With out carbon, source bacteria dies and adds to nutrients. So next stop for me is to try export as well and continue media. I hav a fuge and wil be running that.

Thank you for the update! I've been reading a lot on the subject and have seen your posts on various threads. Do you run any type of macroalgae? I'm having really good luck with the Dragon's breath. I have a 60 gallon refugium and as it grows I cut pieces off in glued them to new rock. It grows extremely fast under an Amazon led grow panel (30 bucks). I have a gallon of the marine pure spheres (I read several threads that claimed they were denser than the blocks and aided quite a bit in reducing nitrates) one of the 8x10x4 bricks in a low flow area of the sump, and 4L in matrix in a media bag.

My plan is to completely line the bottom of my 40x20" refugium with pond matrix. As the Dragon's breath fills in I want to cover the media so algae doesn't grow over the pours. I believe this will also aid in reducing the oxygenated flow to the media.

My system is only a few weeks old, I just completely redid everything. I couldn't get my nitrates down before and decided to do a complete rebuild. I'm currently dosing Start3, Zeobak, vodka, and Seachem Stability in hopes of developing a decent bacteria population.

Total system volume is only around 400 gallons since I have half my system shut down until I can get my nutrients under control.

PS hit me up if you're ever in Orlando and want a frag of Dragon's breath

http://imgur.com/a/4K85o

[markalot]

I've been running a single reactor with Seachem Matrix in it for over a year now. It's full of detritus yet I still have trouble maintaining nitrates in my tank. Prior to the Matrix I would get nitrates of 10 to sometimes 30 depending on how often I fed.

[Piper27]

For a large heavily fed tank with lots of fish, there is nothing better for reducing nutrients and nothing better to help micro life grow than a good carbon source. Using a carbon source is also completely easy, cheap, and is a easy way to balance your nutrients if phosphates always grow higher than nitrates. Which is a common happening in a number of reefers tanks.
Media will work well in a normal tank too, and is easier in a tank that's under a year old. I think that's why it's been so popular recently IMO. Things seem like the are turning back towards simplicity instead of tons of equipment and such. Carbon dosing is hard for some without mature/stable tanks and a large area of rock to dose into.
I also agree that the media will work better with at least a small amount of carbon source added in it's area routinely.

[Roggio]

For a large heavily fed tank with lots of fish, there is nothing better for reducing nutrients and nothing better to help micro life grow than a good carbon source. Using a carbon source is also completely easy, cheap, and is a easy way to balance your nutrients if phosphates always grow higher than nitrates. Which is a common happening in a number of reefers tanks.
Media will work well in a normal tank too, and is easier in a tank that's under a year old. I think that's why it's been so popular recently IMO. Things seem like the are turning back towards simplicity instead of tons of equipment and such. Carbon dosing is hard for some without mature/stable tanks and a large area of rock to dose into.
I also agree that the media will work better with at least a small amount of carbon source added in it's area routinely.


My problem now is I have .04 ammonia, undetectable phosphates, and nitrates in the 50+ range (Red Sea). My system is about two months old with about 300 lbs of live rock. I have added lots of bottled bacteria including Fritz but it seems my tank is still cycling. Even after doing a 40% water change last week my nitrates were still at 50+. I have been carbon dosing religiously and wherever you read most say the same thing, "Water changes" it's frustrating because even utilizing reef crystals that water change cost over 50 bucks with little effect. I'm currently disabled for a bit (trying to save my foot after an injury in the military). My plan is to keep dosing the bacteria and carbon in hopes things balance out.

[markalot]

What fish or other ammonia producers do you have in there?

What test kit for ammonia?

In a cycled tank it can take months for this type of media to start reducing nitrates in my experience.

[bigzman]

Thank you for the update! I've been reading a lot on the subject and have seen your posts on various threads. Do you run any type of macroalgae? I'm having really good luck with the Dragon's breath. I have a 60 gallon refugium and as it grows I cut pieces off in glued them to new rock. It grows extremely fast under an Amazon led grow panel (30 bucks). I have a gallon of the marine pure spheres (I read several threads that claimed they were denser than the blocks and aided quite a bit in reducing nitrates) one of the 8x10x4 bricks in a low flow area of the sump, and 4L in matrix in a media bag.

My plan is to completely line the bottom of my 40x20" refugium with pond matrix. As the Dragon's breath fills in I want to cover the media so algae doesn't grow over the pours. I believe this will also aid in reducing the oxygenated flow to the media.

My system is only a few weeks old, I just completely redid everything. I couldn't get my nitrates down before and decided to do a complete rebuild. I'm currently dosing Start3, Zeobak, vodka, and Seachem Stability in hopes of developing a decent bacteria population.

Total system volume is only around 400 gallons since I have half my system shut down until I can get my nutrients under control.

PS hit me up if you're ever in Orlando and want a frag of Dragon's breath

http://imgur.com/a/4K85o

I am getting into Cheto with Amazon grow lights. Just haven't had the time. I have been able to keep carbon dosing low. I agree this stuff takes time before it works wonders.

[cwschoon]

Can you provide a link to the light you referenced please?

[Roggio]

Can you provide a link to the light you referenced please?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LYBGVRG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This light is great for my application. What's the size of your fuge? How far from the water are you able to mount?

https://www.amazon.com/MarsHydro-Spectrum-Certification-Hydroponic-Greenhouse/dp/B00XC3LBI2/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1496684368&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=LED+grow+light+panel&psc=1

This is a great product for 70 bucks but you would need the space to hang it far enough off the water IMO. I rarely see macroalgae burned by lights but I was able to get better coverage with two of the lights I posted. The claim is they're 45 watts. I havent measured yet but the spread is great and I get a lot of growth with them. I believe a really strong fuge light is well worth the investment. BRS had a great video on the concept

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKNOfwEUdPs

What fish or other ammonia producers do you have in there?

What test kit for ammonia?

In a cycled tank it can take months for this type of media to start reducing nitrates in my experience.

I'm using RedSea's test kits. I've had bad experiences with API.

Currently I have two four foot zebra moral eels, a large hippo, unicorn, red sea sailfin, purple, and blond naso tangs.

I know it can take months :/ I'm really hoping seeding it will speed up the process. Patience is the hardest part of this game. I'll update the thread when I start seeing results.

If youre interested I just started a new build thread where I go over some of these concepts and what worked for me in the past.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2639608

[vlnemo]

Before 2 months, i add to my tank (120 gal soft coral aquarium) 15l siporax pond trying to lower my nitrate from 20-30 ppm nitrate, because i put some acros and montipora plates. As i speak, my nitrates rise to 100ppm. My tank is 3 years old, there is an algae scrubber, ati 250 skimmer, light balling method, vinegar 40ml a day, biodigest bacteria, two water changes a month 70lt. I didnt mesure for no2 or NO4 but i cant think anything else, new nitrogen cycle!! Any thoughts;

[cwschoon]

I have 3 Brightwell Aquatics Xport NO3 dimpled bricks in my 120, lots of rock w some very large pieces and my high nitrates refuse to come down. I am somewhere around 50-60 ppm

[vlnemo]

I have 3 Brightwell Aquatics Xport NO3 dimpled bricks in my 120, lots of rock w some very large pieces and my high nitrates refuse to come down. I am somewhere around 50-60 ppm

Did you start your tank with the bricks or put them after. When did you put them in your system? Where was your nitrate then? You where higher and then drop to50-60 or nothing change. Iam not saying that my nitrates stays at 20-30.

[vlnemo]

My nitrates went from 20-30 to 100ppm in two months after adding 15 lit siporax pond. I will try big water changes because my coral suffer and leave the siporax for two months more... Its like a new nitrogen cycle to me...

[cwschoon]

The tank has been up since late January. Transferred the contents of a 60 gal and added more rock, fish, corals. Nitrates have always been very high and the bricks have been in my sump for 3 weeks. I do realize that it may be many weeks before I see any positive results.

[StarF]

My nitrates went from 20-30 to 100ppm in two months after adding 15 lit siporax pond. I will try big water changes because my coral suffer and leave the siporax for two months more... Its like a new nitrogen cycle to me...

how have you placed them? do they collect a lot of debrius?

when i placed mine, i had no cycle going from them, but try to add some bacteria and some carbon source of a sort (vsv or what ever you like to use), that really got my siporax going... i add a small amount off vsv each day now, to keep the siporax fueled along with some bacteria..

that aproach has ben verry effective with me. But it did take a month or 2 before i could really see it was working.

[cwschoon]

3 are stacked at the back corner of my sump and because of the dimples-facing down-there is not much detritus. I seeded them with Brightwell's Microbacter 7 and I dose with Aquaforest Pro Bio F every day.

[StarF]

i use Pro Bio S...

[makers marc]

All ill say is, if you are going to dose vodka I recommend doing it into a large sump that has enough skimming and live rock down stream for the excess bacteria to colonize.

Otherwise, if you dose it into your display directly and even verdo it slightly, you'll be left with a bunch of white fuzz (bacteria) that never goes away. It's made me regret vodka dosing - I have an oversized skimmer, high flow, and used filter socks and still had a display bloom and white fuzz a year after stopping.

[tsav]

Not really. Just want to stay off carbon.

Carbon Media or Carbon Dosing?

[djbon]

http://imgur.com/a/wX6kX
Porous media + reactor + carbon source = one of the best nutrients control in reefing

This is my tank, no water changes, no skimmer, no light sump. A very small sump (10G but half filled) does all the filtration at almost no cost.

Give the bacteria a chance to show its capability, you will surprised

[bigzman]

Carbon Media or Carbon Dosing?

Want to get off vodka / vinager carbon dosing.