SPS not growing/growing s....l....o....w

[dubmaneh]

First off…….Hello and a big thank you to everyone out there who has helped me get this far in the hobby. Tons of reading and still so much to learn!

Why this post? When I moved an established 34gal to a new home, I upgraded it to a larger system and went mixed reef adding more SPS (11 months ago). But my SPS just don’t seem to want to grow! I cant figure out why. Looking for advice from you SPS keepers.

Don’t get me wrong, most of my SPS are growing but at this rate my grandchildren will be the ones who get to see the fruits of my labour. And after seeing so many amazing tanks with SPS growing like weeds I need some advice.

What should I be looking at?

Tanks specs are below.

65 GALLON DISPLAY
Drilled with Glass Holes overflow
40gal Breeder for sump
55 gal net system volume

WATER PARAMETERS (consistent for the past 3 mo.):
SG: 1.026 (using refractometer calibrated with solution prior to each reading)
Temp: 77.5F
PH: 8.0
dKH: 9.4-10 (swings by +/- 0.5dkh/7days)
Phosphate: 0 (Don’t test. No visible algae but I know its there ☺)
Calcium: 460-480 ppm
Magnesium: 1200-1300 ppm
Nitrate: 10

NOTE: All water tests completed using either ELOS and/or Salifert test kits.

DOSING:
Soda Ash (Alk)
Calcium Chloride (Ca)

CIRCULATION:
(3) MPW10wES – 2 set to pulsing 1 to reef crest

EQUIPMENT:
Vertex Omega 150 skimmer
Tunze ATO
BRS dosing pumps x 2

FEEDING:
Pinch of Omega Veggie Flakes daily
2ml phytoplankton (2 times per week)
Small piece Nori (1.5”x3”) 2 times per week
1cube Frozen Spirulina Bryne + 1 cube Cyclops (1x per week)

LIGHTING:
(2) Vertex Illumina 260 with the Aux colour module in each light.

PHOTO PERIOD:
9hrs with a ramp up and ramp down. Starting and ending with blues and UV. Blues, RB and UV max out at 85%, Whites on for 6hrs and max out at 20%.

FISH:
- Occellaris clowns x2
- Royal gramma
- Lubbock's fairy wrasse
- Chromis viridis x 3 (small)
- Yellow tang
- Hippo Tang (juvenile)
- Diamond Goby

CORALS:
Softies:
- Orange & blue mushrooms (lesson learned)
- Green Star Polyp
- Bicolour frogspawn
- Bicolour hammer
- Candy cane
- Elegance
- Favia (Dragon Soul)
- Acans (various x 4 frags)
- Zoas & Palys (various x 7 frags)
- Pulsing Xenia (again, lesson learned)

SPS:
- Meteor Shower Cyphaestrea
- Encrusting Montipoa (poker star?)
- Montipora setosa
- Seriatopora caliendrum? (teal birds nest)
- Seriatopoa hystrix (pink birdsnest)
- Pocillopora
- Purple Bonsai Valida
- Acropora caroliniana
- Green Staghorn Acropora
- Blue dream? Acro
- Red Dragon

OTHER INHABITANTS:
- Pink tube anemone
- Lots of Astreea Snails
- Red leg hermit crab
- Asternia starfish
- Emerald crab



MAINTENANCE:
I do a 9% WC every 7-10days with IO Reef Crystals and syphon the detritus in the sump. Usually add 10ml Bicrobacter7 or 2 drops KZ Zeobak (not sure if it helps).

Syphon the sandbed of the DT every 2-4weeks.

Scrape the glass for algae 1-2x per week max.

GFO when needed.



RANDOMS:

One of the first things I dealt with was starving my corals. I was so afraid of algae and polluting my tank that I just didn’t feed enough. SPS would slowly go pale and eventually die back/out. There were not enough fish in the system. Things started to get better once NO3 got to noticeable levels (started dosing Amino Acids but have backed off). NO3 is now sitting nicely at 10ppm and coloration is getting better.

The carolinia started to grow nicely and then just stalled. When it was growing I could actually see it getting bigger week by week if not day by day (so I know how fast things can grow).

Introduced some new frags a few weeks back and lost one (purple dragon) to RTN. Never seen that before, but man was it ever rapid! Losing another frag (a purple acro) to STN. While these two have given up the ghost, the others are doing fine (good coloration & polyp extension but no visible growth)



IDEAS:

1. Allelopathy between the softies and the SPS. This is my best guess to start with as I used to run carbon and stopped. I think I’m going to start with carbon as my first change to the tank and watch for an improvement.

2. Photo inhibition. Definitely had some photo inhibition but coloration improved with shortening of the photoperiod from 12hrs to 9hrs. The carolinia seems happy at the top of my tank so perhaps there may not be enough PAR for the more light hungry corals (although the teal birdsnest is doing just fine at roughly the same level)? Will gradually increase the intensity of the LED’s.

3. Light Spectrum. Had a previous issue with this as well (gotta love LED’s). Things are getting better now that the Blues, RB & UV max out at 85% with Whites maxing at 20%. Increasing the Whites intensity is my second change after running carbon.

4. Potassium Deficiency. Some SPS that used to be blue and should be blue are not. Need to pick up a test kit for this although with weekly water changes this is not high up on my list.

5. Stray Voltage. I’ve tested this before and didn’t find any. Will test again. Does everyone use a grounding probe?

6. Pests. I’ve looked and looked and don’t see any.

7. Turbidity in the water column from the goby.



There you have it. I figured it was better to give as much info in one shot as possible. Let me know there is anything I missed. I’ll post some pictures of the tank once the lights come on.

Again thank in advance for any thoughts or advice on how to get my SPS to thrive.

[NaturalReef]

Uv is potent, I would lower to 40%. Sps stress out very easily. Stability,stability,stability��
Dial in Alk, temp,salinity so it fluctuates very little and feed your corals. They will grow.

[dubmaneh]

Uv is potent, I would lower to 40%. Sps stress out very easily. Stability,stability,stability��
Dial in Alk, temp,salinity so it fluctuates very little and feed your corals. They will grow.

Never thought of the UV. On these lights the UV channel controls the Indigo and Violet as well (everything from 390nm-420nm). The UV was very slowly brought up to 85% over a period of months and coloration got better (mind you RB and B were increased at the same time).

I figured an Alk swing by 0.5dkh over 7days would be considered pretty stable? Sg is rock solid and Temp fluctuates by about 1degree over 24hrs.

What do you recommend I feed the corals?

[reefmutt]

You certainly seem to be keeping things under control..
Alk maybe a bit high for most, but not too bad..
Some systems just take longer than others to mature and make sps happy..
Do they encrust?
Can you post some pics?
I've built systems where the sps took off after 4-6 months but my current system which I restarted 1 and a half years ago- and connected to a much older system, took a solid year to really see acros start to grow up and out. They encrusted a lot but didn't branch out..
Your system may just be taking its time...
You should test po4 with a good test kit, just out of curiosity...

[Jeremy257]

I am no expert but I have gone the rounds since focusing on SPS.

I'd agree about the alkalinity being a tad on the high side.

I would also agree that for SPS you should really be testing the PO4 and do it with a Hanna meter.

As soon as I read the intro.. I scanned to see what you were using for light... and bingo as I expected, LED only. Do yourself a favor and add some T5. you can get some better growth and color from what you've got if you feed some reef chili and acropower (or other proven additives). You can probably do a bunch of stuff and perhaps get things on track but I would be willing to bet that if you change up your lighting strategy the growth and color will come much more easily.

[dubmaneh]

Do they encrust?
Can you post some pics?
You should test po4 with a good test kit, just out of curiosity...

Some of them are encrusting. Missed the "daylight" time for pics today and I don't know how to do the whole white balance thing. I will post some new pics later this week.

Got PO4 tested at the LFS (Hanna low range) and came out 0.00:dance:.
I'm not kidding myself though I know there is some bound up in there somewhere.


As soon as I read the intro.. I scanned to see what you were using for light... and bingo as I expected, LED only. Do yourself a favor and add some T5. you can get some better growth and color from what you've got if you feed some reef chili and acropower (or other proven additives). You can probably do a bunch of stuff and perhaps get things on track but I would be willing to bet that if you change up your lighting strategy the growth and color will come much more easily.

LED!!!!! Seems to be the case and I may add some T5's. I just have a hard time adding more after spending $$$ on these lights. Especially after seeing tanks that are super successful with only LED (Different fixtures though, so just copying the program wont work).


Soooooo. I brought a water sample to the LFS and my S.G was high at 1.028. Not the 1.026 I have been measuring. Turns out my calibration fluid was off! No wonder Alk was high.

Going to get the S.G. back to 1.026 and let things settle before I change anything else. After that though I think my plan of attack will be(changes made weekly):

1. Lower UV to around 40% as suggested. Probably in weekly drops of 15-20%to monitor changes.
2. Start using carbon again in case of any allelopathy.

Thanks for the advice. Will post pics soon.

[Pife]

I'd get some po4s in there. The corals need food to grow.

[dubmaneh]

I'd get some po4s in there. The corals need food to grow.


Just feed more?

[Jeremy257]

When I first started looking to why my corals turned pale.. I went and bought a Hanna Low Range. I also saw PO4 = 0.00. Since then I've reduced my water changes to every 2 weeks and started broadcast feeding reef chili and acropower. The color definitely came back a bit but still no where near what they looked like when I purchased my frags. The growth was been decent.

I would definitely fix your water quality issues. That alone will probably make a good impact on growth rates. As for color, I do think you will ultimately want to do something about your light.

[Jeremy257]

LED!!!!! Seems to be the case and I may add some T5's. I just have a hard time adding more after spending $$$ on these lights. Especially after seeing tanks that are super successful with only LED (Different fixtures though, so just copying the program wont work).



I too have seen great tanks that are LED only in pictures, never in real life. All the good SPS tanks I've seen in real life are powered by MH. What sold me on the fact that LED only is not the route is highlighted in the article I read not too long ago. An article that was published in January by arguably the foremost reef tank lighting expert in the hobby, Sanjay Joshi.

Sanjay switched out his 2 400w MH for $6K worth of Radions on his 500g tank a couple of years ago after playing with it on his smaller tanks for a few years previously. He can get about 80% of the growth he had with the MH on most corals, on some much worse. I figure if that is the best Sanjay can get out of LED than I probably use something more predictable.

https://www.reefs.com/blog/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

[dubmaneh]

Since then I've reduced my water changes to every 2 weeks and started broadcast feeding reef chili and acropower.

It's all about balance, LOL. I've gone from waaaay overfeeding my first tank to starving my inhabitants. Go figure. Trying to find the sweet spot now. I think cutting back on the water changes and increasing the feeding is a good way to go. After getting my S.G down to appropriate levels and going slowly.

I too have seen great tanks that are LED only in pictures, never in real life.

Sanjay switched out his 2 400w MH for $6K worth of Radions on his 500g tank a couple of years ago after playing with it on his smaller tanks for a few years previously. He can get about 80% of the growth he had with the MH on most corals, on some much worse. I figure if that is the best Sanjay can get out of LED than I probably use something more predictable.

https://www.reefs.com/blog/2016/01/05/leds-500-gallon-reef/

I was skeptical until I saw some tanks lit by LED in real life. I've seen a few and know it can be done. Don't know how the growth rates compared to MH but I can tell you they were certainly better than mine!

Interesting article. As I don't have any experience with MH I can't comment but I like the LED's for all the reasons Sanjay pointed out(and I've already invested in them).

After a LOT of reading on LED's (I'm no expert by any means), I think the problem with the technology is that each led only emits a very specific and narrow sliver of the spectrum. Sure, the fixtures may be "multicolor" with a variety of chips, but what about the spectrum in between? In a hobby where the smallest of changes has a huge impact on the health of the animals, I have a hard time believing that it counts for nothing!

Add to that independently controlled channels and varied output from different components across manufacturers and its a mess to get it right.

That said, I'm not jumping ship on the LED's just yet.

[pciscott]

How are you measuring P04? If test kit you need a Hanna Low Range meter. If you are zero feed a little more. Other than that you look pretty good and I would assume light is your main problem. Give me your three nicest frags and we will test the light theory:)

[dubmaneh]

How are you measuring P04?

P04 was tested with a Hanna Low Range meter.

Give me your three nicest frags and we will test the light theory:)

:lolspin: Nice!

[nuttyd]

Would say to feed a lot more. try using frozen brine or mysis and dont rinse before use instead of flake. My sps love the micro pieces that the fish wont eat. Alk might be a little high. Try 8.5

[dubmaneh]

Turns out my refractometer is bad. Wont hold calibration at all!

LFS has a sale on the Milwaukee digital refractometer for $30 more than the D-D ATC refractometer. Any advice on which is better?

[drummerboyevil]

Love love love my Milwaukee digital Refractometer.

Also, consider sell your LEDs and buying an ATI sun power fixture. You'll prolly make money off the deal and then you'll know lighting isn't an issue.

[markalot]

Turns out my refractometer is bad. Wont hold calibration at all!

LFS has a sale on the Milwaukee digital refractometer for $30 more than the D-D ATC refractometer. Any advice on which is better?

Are you sure? Temp correcting refractometers take about 1 to 2 minutes to settle, sometimes longer. This used to drive me crazy until I realized I just needed to wait a couple of minutes and then look. Probably varies based on ambient room temperature.

You need to provide us with pictures. :)

[moatdaddy]

Have a refracto and digital. Every once in a while the digital will read 1.040. Its me not cleaning the eye and just adding some new water. I have to re zero it with rodi. So if it reads off I double check with refracto. That being said. Best investment was Milwaukee salinity reader.

As far as lighting goes I would watch BRS videos on lighting. Quick YouTube search and an hour later and you will know exactly why t5 is needed with LEDs. Others back up what they say. Give it a go well worth your time to do your own homework.

One of my LFS has kessils only. It has fantastic growth. Every base of every sps colony is dead. No light gets to the bottom! That's a 3 year led only tank.

[drummerboyevil]

Have a refracto and digital. Every once in a while the digital will read 1.040. Its me not cleaning the eye and just adding some new water. I have to re zero it with rodi. So if it reads off I double check with refracto. That being said. Best investment was Milwaukee salinity reader.

As far as lighting goes I would watch BRS videos on lighting. Quick YouTube search and an hour later and you will know exactly why t5 is needed with LEDs. Others back up what they say. Give it a go well worth your time to do your own homework.

One of my LFS has kessils only. It has fantastic growth. Every base of every sps colony is dead. No light gets to the bottom! That's a 3 year led only tank.

I think what it is, is not rising the eye with RODI after use. Basically the salt stays behind when the water evaporates and next time you take a sample it's throwing off the reading. I always wipe mine dry when done but I found that simple filling the well once, dumping it then refilling before taking a reading has solved this problem. Mine seems to hold calibration for weeks.

[dubmaneh]

Are you sure? Temp correcting refractometers take about 1 to 2 minutes to settle, sometimes longer. This used to drive me crazy until I realized I just needed to wait a couple of minutes and then look. Probably varies based on ambient room temperature.

You need to provide us with pictures. :)

Unfortunately yes. I even left both the calibration solution bottles in the tank so they would be the same as the sample water. I know the temperature of the prism is what the water adjusts to but I figured "one less variable right?"

Its not that I couldn't calibrate it. Once it was calibrated and readings were coming in fine for a few moments. If I took another reading of the same sample (solution or otherwise) it would give a different reading within minutes. Tried it over and again with the same results.

New refractometer is coming in solid every time.

I've been trying to post pictures but every time I try it won't let me. Never done it before and will have to do some reading up on how to.

[dubmaneh]

As far as lighting goes I would watch BRS videos on lighting. Quick YouTube search and an hour later and you will know exactly why t5 is needed with LEDs. Others back up what they say. Give it a go well worth your time to do your own homework.

One of my LFS has kessils only. It has fantastic growth. Every base of every sps colony is dead. No light gets to the bottom! That's a 3 year led only tank.

Seriously considering adding some T5's to my setup. Just want to get my water chemistry settled down first.

[moatdaddy]

you will, keep us posted and get some photos, maybe start a build thread

[NaturalReef]

Dub, I am a firm believer that led's will grow any coral. The problem is finding the sweet spot. Start lower intensity and slowly bring it up. I have a 9 hour timer on my 3 ai prime where the intensity peaks at 80% at 2:00 and the average intensity is around 50-60 percent. My UV never goes above 25%. I was constantly told the primes are not powerful enough and i say hogwash. My sps are just as vivid at the bottom as well as the top of a 50 gallon fusion lagoon with just 3 ai prime at half intensity. As others have stated, lights are just one of many factors in making sps thrive. I just recovered from a tank crash after upgrading and stated in another thread that once I fixed the lighting and flow to match the bigger tank, my sps started recovering and coloring up faster than i have previously seen.

[dubmaneh]

Ok. My attempt at posting some pictures.

Full Tank Shot as of 1/27/2016
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/alexdubinskydubmaneh/FTS-01272016_zpsl8nlrnub.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/alexdubinskydubmaneh/media/FTS-01272016_zpsl8nlrnub.jpg.html)


FTS as of 2/16/2016
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/alexdubinskydubmaneh/FTS-02162016_zpsxdxlosg4.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/alexdubinskydubmaneh/media/FTS-02162016_zpsxdxlosg4.jpg.html)


New Frags 2/16/2016
http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq11/alexdubinskydubmaneh/Frags%20-02162016_zpsnt2ymc0f.jpg (http://s429.photobucket.com/user/alexdubinskydubmaneh/media/Frags%20-02162016_zpsnt2ymc0f.jpg.html)

Ill have to take some more recent pics to post (and learn how to take better shots :lolspin:).

[Acronic]

Im surprised nobody has mentioned your magnesium level being low.

Your tank and corals look great. I would suspect it is just a slight ionic imbalance. How are you managing magnesium?

[dubmaneh]

Im surprised nobody has mentioned your magnesium level being low.

Your tank and corals look great. I would suspect it is just a slight ionic imbalance. How are you managing magnesium?

Thanks! For the most part the corals seem happy, they just fail to grow as rapidly as I know they can (mushrooms excluded). Right now the notion of fragging seems like such a foreign concept as it would imply that the corals actually grow at an appreciable rate! :lmao:

To be honest I don't manage magnesium other than weekly 10% water changes. I haven't tested for Mg in a while as every time I did it was fairly constant. I do have a gallon of solution made up though (from the BRS dry mix).

Ill do a test tonight and see what it comes out as. What level do you recommend for Mg?

[Acronic]

Adjust mag to 1350ppm. You will be surprised how much it takes to raise it. I'm assuming your alk and cal consumption will increase afterwards

[AZRippster]

Im surprised nobody has mentioned your magnesium level being low.

Your tank and corals look great. I would suspect it is just a slight ionic imbalance. How are you managing magnesium?

He's not far off though, natural sea water is around 1280 ppm.

[Acronic]

True but the number doesn't tell the whole story

[AZRippster]

True but the number doesn't tell the whole story

I would agree that having Calc at 480 and Alk at 10 should dictate higher Mag to assist with balance, but I didn't notice anything about elements coming out of solution. Regardless, if I were to run C/A that high, I would have the Mag higher. Rather than that though, it may be better overall to slowly adjust things down closer to NSW.

[Acronic]

Fair enough. That is also a worthy approach. My emphasis is more on the imbalance of ions. I used mag to embellish the suspicion since it appeared he was not accounting for it. I believe this is the simplest and cheapest approach to rule out before going out and buying new lights and the latest snake oils haha.

[dubmaneh]

I would agree that having Calc at 480 and Alk at 10 should dictate higher Mag to assist with balance, but I didn't notice anything about elements coming out of solution. Regardless, if I were to run C/A that high, I would have the Mag higher. Rather than that though, it may be better overall to slowly adjust things down closer to NSW.

Funny enough, as I brought my S.G down I was expecting to see a drop in my Kh ad Ca. They have stayed constant at Kh = 9.6dkh and Ca = 440ppm.

I am using IO Reef Crystals and when I tested my new batch it came out to

S.G = 1.025 @ 77.5F
Kh = 10.5dKh
Ca = 450ppm
Mg = Didn't test. Doh!

I thought you should match your levels of Kh and Ca to the levels in the salt you use.

Several posts have suggested bringing my Kh down closer to 8-9dkh for the acro's. Do I just let the Kh fall while continuing to dose Ca or let both fall equally? What about water changes if the WC water chemistry is different from the system water chemistry?

I used mag to embellish the suspicion since it appeared he was not accounting for it. I believe this is the simplest and cheapest approach to rule out before going out and buying new lights and the latest snake oils haha.

I wasn't accounting for it.:facepalm:
I've suspected that the culprit is something with my water chemistry as have seen growth spurts with this system.

[Acronic]

Once I saw the pictures I felt the same. Everything looks great. Calcification is just having a hard time because the big three aren't playing together. Don't worry *too much* about the numbers. Add some mag and wait a week. It seems you have time in your side judging by the health of the tank.

[AZRippster]

S.G = 1.025 @ 77.5F



If you warm up your tank a bit, you'll also get faster growth. Just something else to consider.

[dubmaneh]

Adjust mag to 1350ppm. You will be surprised how much it takes to raise it. I'm assuming your alk and cal consumption will increase afterwards

Tested Mg and it came in at 1400ppm so Im gonna rule that out. Mind you the test kit expired 03/2016 so Ill have to get a new one to be sure.

If you warm up your tank a bit, you'll also get faster growth. Just something else to consider.

What temp would you recommend?

[Acronic]

Interesting. What is your daily consumption of alk and cal?

[AZRippster]

What temp would you recommend?

Consider the bulk of the coral types you want to keep and where they are from. Then investigate the average ocean temperature for that area. I think you'll be surprised.

[dubmaneh]

Interesting. What is your daily consumption of alk and cal?

I'm gonna stop dosing for 24hrs to measure consumption and help lower KH.

[Acronic]

Cool. I'm curious too!

[dubmaneh]

Alright, so I stopped dosing both Ca and Alk for just over 24hrs and found the following.

1) Alk dropped by 0.6dKh
2) Ca only appeared to drop by 5ppm (does that seem right?)

Current readings are:

T=77.5F
S.G. = 1.026
Ca = 475ppm
Alk=8.3dKh

My old test kit for Ca ran out so I got this reading is from a new Salifert test kit. Bringing a water sample to my LFS this weekend (and pick up new kits for Mg and Alk) to verify the accuracy.

Going to go back to my old dosing regime and see if what happens in 24hrs. Hopefully all will remain stable.

Once the chemistry is nailed down, I think raising the temp is my next move....

[dubmaneh]

So..........some of the SPS really didn't appreciate the drop in Alk and I saw some STN in a couple of pieces from the swing (montipora setosa & the tri-colour valida).

Chemistry is nailed down and params have been stable for the past week or so at:

T=78.0F (raised this over the past week)
S.G. = 1.026
Ca = 475ppm
Alk=8.75dKh
Mg=1400ppm

I've increased my feeding to either 1cube of spriulina brine + 1 cube of cyclopeze or 2 cubes of spirulina brine/day. 1/6th a nori sheet every other day. Cultured phyto 2x per week. In hopes to raise P04 to detectable levels.

My dosing of amino Acids (currently using AV Fuel) has also been kicked up a notch. They recommend 13.5ml twice a week for a tank my size. I've been dosing 7ml daily. Again in hopes to raise P04 to detectable levels.

I haven't noticed any negative effects but I also haven't had to scrape the glass at all in nearly two weeks which leads me to believe that I may be starving the corals.

Thoughts?

I know this sounds crazy but could my bioload vs skimmer be too small?

Best way to raise the P04? (I've had suggestions of more amino acids, more meaty foods, Reef-roids or just more fish.)