Question for a chemist

[oblio]

I have been battling a cyno issue with my tank for about year now. It grows in low flow areas of the sandbed. I've tried many different approaches and none seem to "solve" the issue. I'm not asking for recommendations on treatment as at this point I've probably done it.
This is where the chemist is required, is it "possible" that Seachem prime is fueling the cyno? I live in Florida we get heavy chloromine treatment to the water supply, I run twin carbon blocks, twin DI within the RO system. I make 35gallons at a time (brute can) and then add a cap-full of Seachem Prime to each 35 gallons, this is a tad bit over the standard cap-full per 50gallon recommendation. As I was adding the cap-full of Prime this morning it hit me that maybe this is somehow adding fuel to the cyno issue. I dose nothing, other than 2part. and fish food. Phosphate numbers are always around .02 but this could be the cyno using it.
Anyhow was wondering if someone far smarter than I could chime in with either "nope, Prime wont do that" or possibly "Prime could possibly be an issue"

Regards,

[toothybugs]

I highly doubt it.

[dkeller_nc]

No one really knows what is in Seachem Prime. If it's a traditional sulfite reducer, then there's little chance that's fueling cyano.

It could, however, be hydroxymethanesulfonate. I suppose there's a potential that the reaction of ammonia with that compound could produce and amine that would fuel cyano growth.

It'd be easy to test, since if your carbon blocks are kept in good shape, there's no reason to add Prime to your purified water.

[bertoni]

Prime won't encourage bacterial blooms at the standard dosing levels. I'd look elsewhere for the source of the problem. I don't think it's doing anything useful, but it won't do any harm, either. Have you checked the TDS of the output water, or measured the ammonia level?

[Dan_P]

I have been battling a cyno issue with my tank for about year now. It grows in low flow areas of the sandbed. I've tried many different approaches and none seem to "solve" the issue. I'm not asking for recommendations on treatment as at this point I've probably done it.
This is where the chemist is required, is it "possible" that Seachem prime is fueling the cyno? I live in Florida we get heavy chloromine treatment to the water supply, I run twin carbon blocks, twin DI within the RO system. I make 35gallons at a time (brute can) and then add a cap-full of Seachem Prime to each 35 gallons, this is a tad bit over the standard cap-full per 50gallon recommendation. As I was adding the cap-full of Prime this morning it hit me that maybe this is somehow adding fuel to the cyno issue. I dose nothing, other than 2part. and fish food. Phosphate numbers are always around .02 but this could be the cyno using it.
Anyhow was wondering if someone far smarter than I could chime in with either "nope, Prime wont do that" or possibly "Prime could possibly be an issue"

Regards,

Here are some ideas.

A useful article on ammonia that touches on hydroxymethanesulfonate.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/

The notion that cyanbacteria are consuming phosphate and keeping the water level of phosphate low is nonsense. Firstly, the mass contribution of phosphorous to the weight of cyanobacteria and algae is miniscule, < 0.1 %. Secondly, the dry weight of cyanobacteria and algae we see in our aquariums is tiny. For these reasons, the growth of these organisms is not keeping down the phosphate level in the water. The math simply does not support this conjecture.

The fact that the cyanobacteria are growing in the sand means it is getting sufficient light and nutrients there and nothing else is outcompeting it in that area. The low flow contributes to cyanobacteria growth by allowing dissolved nutrients from the sand bed to accumulate at the surface. And the low flow is possibly starving organisms that need vigorous flow to compete with the cyanobacteria. Once you remove the nutrient from this area, for example, by introducing vigorous flow, the cyanobacteria will recede and possibly disappear for good.

Prime contents are a big mystery. One way to think about its role is to ask how much of this are you adding. I think if you dried a sample of Prime in your Florida sunshine, you will find there isn't much material left after the water evaporates. Diluted in your aquarium, it would nit be much stuff, even if it was bacteria food.

[oblio]

Prime won't encourage bacterial blooms at the standard dosing levels. I'd look elsewhere for the source of the problem. I don't think it's doing anything useful, but it won't do any harm, either. Have you checked the TDS of the output water, or measured the ammonia level?

Thanks to all for the input.
TDS is monitored during water production, typically 2-3 pre DI, zero post duel DI canisters.

The few times I have checked ammonia its been zero, but that's with a inexpensive AP test kit.

Here are some ideas.

A useful article on ammonia that touches on hydroxymethanesulfonate.
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/

The notion that cyanbacteria are consuming phosphate and keeping the water level of phosphate low is nonsense. Firstly, the mass contribution of phosphorous to the weight of cyanobacteria and algae is miniscule, < 0.1 %. Secondly, the dry weight of cyanobacteria and algae we see in our aquariums is tiny. For these reasons, the growth of these organisms is not keeping down the phosphate level in the water. The math simply does not support this conjecture.

The fact that the cyanobacteria are growing in the sand means it is getting sufficient light and nutrients there and nothing else is outcompeting it in that area. The low flow contributes to cyanobacteria growth by allowing dissolved nutrients from the sand bed to accumulate at the surface. And the low flow is possibly starving organisms that need vigorous flow to compete with the cyanobacteria. Once you remove the nutrient from this area, for example, by introducing vigorous flow, the cyanobacteria will recede and possibly disappear for good.

Prime contents are a big mystery. One way to think about its role is to ask how much of this are you adding. I think if you dried a sample of Prime in your Florida sunshine, you will find there isn't much material left after the water evaporates. Diluted in your aquarium, it would nit be much stuff, even if it was bacteria food.

Thank you for the response, I especially found refreshing the comment on cyno and the resulting phosphate levels, I am no chemist but it just didnt seem possible that such a small amount of cyno in my case could consistently keep my p04 so low for so long. Its nice to see someone suggest something other than "your readings are zero because the cyno consumes it" comment.

I say my cyno will pop up in low flow, I have tons of flow for a 90gallon tank via the MP40 and MP10 and a Jebao PP15 + duel returns. I have spent so many hours moving powerheads so that they move lots of water but dont move the sand bed drastically around the tank. Which they can do with little problem. So to say "low flow" I mean for my tank, a dip in the sandbed the size of a quarter, yep, its going to be a slight red tint after a couple of days. some random part of the rock work that doesn't get blasted. Again my nutrients always read well below acceptable levels. My sand bed is over 4 years old and is roughly 4-5" deep so maybe its simply leeching up?

I posted the question because I attempt to run the tank with minimal addition of "things" but the Prime had become such a regular part of my process it didnt come to mind when someone would ask do you add anything. Coupled with this constant reminder that if left alone for too long the cyno will grow I was thinking I had found my culprit.
I just made a new barrel of water and added prime, so Im going to use this, but the next three batches of water I will not add Prime too, and see if something changes.

I never mentioned this, but this is a SPS tank, with everything growing at a noticeable, so I'm not too far off, its just the cyno is ugly and adds about 50% more daily work to control.
The "routine" is I turn a air pump on that feeds an air stone that sits in front of my return, this fills the display with zillions of bubbles, then I use a turkey baster to turn the sandbed over, probably the first 1 1/2 inch gets turned. Then the rock work, then the glass gets wiped. I leave this running for about 30 mins after and then turn off the airpump, change the bag. Doing this does keep everything at a level that only another experienced reef tank person would even notice that the cyno is there. However I cant help but feel I'm just masking something instead of fixing it.



Again thank for the comments.