Permanent Hyposalinity to Sell Fish Possible?

[CMJones]

Ok, I will start and say that I do work and run the aquatics department of a pet store. I am attempting to find a solution for work. If this is not allowed, I will have no problems deleting this post, but figured if there was a group that could brain storm this idea with me. This was the place.

The problem is this. Pet store does care about their pets a great deal. Vets anytime something is sick or even suspected, with a vet right next door even. They have no qualm about taking care of their animals. The biggest issue is that as far as the store itself, they are only allowed to use natural remedies and no medication or treatments that are not vet prescribed. This works for everything in the store except aquatics (as you would guess).

So, Hypo Salinity works for Ich, most flukes, some velvet strains and Brook... The idea i'm toying with is between the two systems we have, running one fish only hyposalinity and the other inverts only with corals / CUC / Anemone ect... The Fish only setup would be the Hypo tank, and the other wouldn't have to worry about these diseases since there will be no fish at all.

Now, i could do this as i'm there almost every single day and keep track of it, and the days i'm not there i have someone that is responsible enough to check the levels for me. However, acclimating new fish we get in to the hypo tank and trusting customers to properly acclimate their fish when purchased would be the biggest issue i see... So, how could we possibly implement this or find another solution that would be at least marginally effective before we loose our salt water system completely due to losses. Not to mention the fact that it would make me extremely happy to be able to offer fish that are completely if not mostly disease free, just because it's something i HATE to experience and i'm sure my customers do too.

[ThRoewer]

Hyposalinity works against most ich strains, but there is at least one that will thrive in much lower salinities than saltwater fish can handle.

Hyposalinity may also work against some saltwater flukes, but there are enough that can live in freshwater as well.

Hyposalinity is completely ineffective against Brooklynella, Amyloodinium and many other parasites.

To keep your fish system at constant hyposalinity may just breed a more nasty set of parasites - I would strongly advise against it.

The only good thing of this would be that your customers were forced to set up a QT to slowly ramp up salinity - though many may just walk away.

If you are really serious about doing something against infections I would recommend the following:

1. give every new arrival a formalin bath - that should limit the chances of Brooklynella, Uronema and Amyloodinium entering your system. This is a no brainer and easily doable for any store. A small effort gives you a huge return.

2. put the fish for 2 weeks into hyposalinity (+ 1 week salinity ramp-up) - this should take care of ich (in most cases). Do this in a separate QT system that has to be sterilized before the next batch of fish arrive. If you get new fish every other week you will need 2 systems.
I'm not sure if hyposalinity can be combined with CP, if yes, then I may consider that too, though there are fish that can't handle it (wrasses, seahorses, pipefish).
PraziPro should work with hyposalinity, so that could be used at the same time to eradicate skin and gill flukes as well as many intestinal parasites.

3. keep your invert and coral systems isolated from you fish system!

4. keep your invert and coral systems strictly fish free - especially no tangs!!! - Snails and hermits can do a much better algae control job and are in most cases not hosts of fish parasites.

5. use sterilizers (chemical or heat) for nets and other equipment that may go between systems and could transfer diseases.

6. train the staff on biosecurity procedures. Ideally have someone who only handles inverts and someone who only handles fish to avoid cross contamination.

You may need a "dirty" system for pod eaters like mandarins and pipefish. This system must be as isolated as possible - best in a different room.

[CMJones]

That would be my ideal solution... actually, if i were able, i would do cupramine instead of hypo for startup... however, this particular store is not allowed to use any form of chemical or medical solution. natural only. which is why i'm having this issue. trying to do what's best for my customers and store while keeping to what i'm allowed to do... granted, it doesn't seem possible... but i'm not one to ever give up and just say, "screw it"... so... time to think outside the box

[CMJones]

btw, we only have 2 systems... as is, i've already separated corals / inverts from fish. one system is fish only, other is inverts only.

That was my first stage of attack

[ThRoewer]

Who comes up with such crazy rules?

Without formalin or other chemicals or medication you won't be able to do anything meaningful but just kill lots of fish. Ich, while certainly a problem, is not the worst fish killer. That would be Velvet and Brook and against those exist no other cure than harsh chemicals.
Bacterial infections will need antibiotics.

And how do you contain coral pests without dips? Your coral system will be cesspool of pests like acropora eating flatworms, redbugs, coral eating spiders, montipora eating nudibranches and what not. Nobody should ever buy something out of there.

If anyone would put me under such restrictions I would quit – seriously.

[CMJones]

That's not an option for me. I can't afford to quit, and the experience and title leave me well set for a better position in a few years. Until then, i'm trying to make the best of a bad situation. Even worse, now our freshwater tank (2 of the 15 or so systems we have) have anchor worms. One of the systems we have cleaned out. After all the fish died, we didn't refill it and salted the system to crash it and going to drain / rinse and refill it this weekend... Other tank system was just found out today to have it. I pulled everyone one i could find off the fish (luckily, not that many fish in the system since it's our aquatic plant display. So, just enough fish for the plants). Going to try and control it by pulling them off everytime i see one so they don't have time to reproduce.

[ThRoewer]

What is the reason behind the strict no chemical/medicine policy?

If it's a pet store chain they are likely selling some of those ...

[CMJones]

the main thing is any actual treatment that needs done, they want done by an actual veterinary. Copper can sterilize fish ect as well as harm them, and they won't do anything that could hurt their animals in any way. So, they feel chemicals are too harsh.

[ThRoewer]

Copper is something that shouldn't be used anymore - all it can treat can be treated far better with other methods or medications. But doing nothing at all is even worse.

I guess someone need to tell them that parasites are more harsh on the fish. If they only want a veterinarian do the treatment then they need to hire a full time veterinarian for each store. Though there are very few veterinarians that actually know enough about saltwater fish to actually be qualified.

[CMJones]

yes, but for what it treats, and ease of use, copper would be most practical. It kills off most parasites that fish will get, which is why it's such a common treatment.

I'm more a fan of Formalin and Malachite Green. I've found that to be much less harsh. It also turns the water blue / green though, which they would refuse in their display tanks.

[snorvich]

yes, but for what it treats, and ease of use, copper would be most practical. It kills off most parasites that fish will get, which is why it's such a common treatment.



That is not correct.

[rmcaum]

Just talk to the vet and have them recommend using the appropriate treatments. Any reasonable vet would agree that some over the counter medications are necessary in certain situations. Propose a prophylactic treatment regimen, have the vet approve it and then sell it to the manager/owner. You need to educate the proprietor. As to some of the first comments, I think 99% of LFS don't treat any coral or fish disease other than to run suppressive doses of carbon. Not to cure, just to hide disease until the fish is sold. Same for coral, they go straight in the tank and are turned over as quickly as possible. That is why it is up to the hobbiest to treat/qt/dip livestock. It isn't economically feasible for most LFS to have separate tanks to treat each batch of fish and coral. To many tanks, to many species/treatment limitations for blanket treatment.

[CMJones]

Thats exactly what i am going to be trying to do. See if it'll work and they accept it. Was just talking to the manager about this approach yesterday

[ThRoewer]

yes, but for what it treats, and ease of use, copper would be most practical. It kills off most parasites that fish will get, which is why it's such a common treatment.

Copper isn't easy to use (2+ measurements each day + redosing) and only treats ich. It may also treat some velvet strains, but by far not all.
Also it is highly toxic to fish and the effective therapeutic dose and the lethal dose for fish are way too close for comfort.
On top of all this it is an immunosuppressant that will diminish the fish's immune system and open the door for all kinds of other infections, Lymphocystis being the most common.

I'm more a fan of Formalin and Malachite Green. I've found that to be much less harsh. It also turns the water blue / green though, which they would refuse in their display tanks.

That mix may be effective for freshwater ich, but usually doesn't do you much good with saltwater parasites. Formalin alone works well as a short term bath, but as a long term bath it is less effective because you can only use a much lower dose. Also, with long term use I would be worried about harmful effects to the fish.

[CMJones]

Gotcha, I've only used copper to treat ich when quarantined for my marine (coppersafe). Formalin / Malachite worked wonders no my freshwater tank though. I knew it could be used for salt water, so thought it would be as effective... guess not... And i was told, as well as asked Seachem about coppersafe, and it's supposed to work on Velvet, Ich, Flukes (If body / gill, not internal) and parasitic copepods as well as most forms of fungal diseases. That's... quite a bit covered of the most common. Prazi Pro is what i use for most fluke / internal infection though. Which, is just about as harmless as it gets, and can be used with coppersafe at the same time.

So, basically, what it comes down to, is for a fish store / pet shop. There is nothing that can be done since there's simply not enough room / overhead / time to properly treat fish the way you would at home... which leaves me at ground 0 and trying to find a solution that's at least going to HELP and not result in mass loss.

[rmcaum]

Low level copper to suppress illness until the client can get them home to treat for themselves. More reason to sell a bunch of 20 gallon tanks and medications...

[CMJones]

that, that i've been doing too. we apparently have been doing good on tanks and medications since i arrived *lol*