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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 03:26 PM
Right now my fish are in 100 gallon set up with cupramine. It has been 4 weeks so far.

In another two weeks, I will being ttm, 2 fish at a time, for 2 weeks, which will leave my tank fallow for 8 weeks.

Question is, being they have been in copper, would the ttm just be added stress/over kill treatment?

Also, two of the fish are delicate, a Moorish idol, and Achilles tang. Any advice for set up in ttm? I know flow and water quality are big with these guys, how can I best achieve that in rubbermaid.containers?

Lastly, I always thought it was move fish before 72 hours? My LFS guy told me every 24?

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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 03:39 PM
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

If you scroll down to "crypt free systems", you will see where Bob days once in your system, going fallow will help minimize it, but it.will be there.

If I am misreading it, I apologize.

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snorvich
04/16/2016, 04:21 PM
Right now my fish are in 100 gallon set up with cupramine. It has been 4 weeks so far.

In another two weeks, I will being ttm, 2 fish at a time, for 2 weeks, which will leave my tank fallow for 8 weeks.

Question is, being they have been in copper, would the ttm just be added stress/over kill treatment?

Also, two of the fish are delicate, a Moorish idol, and Achilles tang. Any advice for set up in ttm? I know flow and water quality are big with these guys, how can I best achieve that in rubbermaid.containers?

Lastly, I always thought it was move fish before 72 hours? My LFS guy told me every 24?

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You need a new LFS guy. Everything you need to know is here. (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388428)

snorvich
04/16/2016, 04:23 PM
http://www.wetwebmedia.com/ichartmar.htm

If you scroll down to "crypt free systems", you will see where Bob days once in your system, going fallow will help minimize it, but it.will be there.

If I am misreading it, I apologize.

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I care not what he says, and in this case, again, he is wrong. But if you keep quoting him, I suggest following his advice and I will stop providing mine.

spsrookie
04/16/2016, 04:29 PM
Please no. I will not mention that, I was just appalled and how the "industry expert" can lead people to think that there's no sense striving for ich free environment, becuase it's inevitable.

I'm following you advice Steve, again I will not repost any outside material. Was not doing it to start a debate, just perplexed.

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snorvich
04/16/2016, 04:32 PM
Please no. I will not mention that, I was just appalled and how the "industry expert" can lead people to think that there's no sense striving for ich free environment, becuase it's inevitable.

I'm following you advice Steve, again I will not repost any outside material. Was not doing it to start a debate, just perplexed.

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I will not be offended in the slightest if you prefer his advice. Debates are not for me.

:beer:

snorvich
04/16/2016, 04:35 PM
Remember, you will need observation time after TTM. Does your LFS run copper.

spsrookie
04/16/2016, 08:46 PM
I will not be offended in the slightest if you prefer his advice. Debates are not for me.

:beer:
I certainly do not want his advice. If I did believe in his, I would not be quarantining, perhaps I wouldn't even have a tank anymore. If I felt ich was inevitable, I would not partake in this hobby anymore

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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 08:47 PM
Remember, you will need observation time after TTM. Does your LFS run copper.
Most of these fish came from live aquaria (not divers den). The few that did come.from lfs, the best answer I get is "copper as needed"

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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 08:51 PM
Remember, you will need observation time after TTM. Does your LFS run copper.
That's a skip I may have to skip. Once I start ttm, the only two tanks I have for them to be placed is main tank which is now fallow, and qt, which was not long ago my display, rock taken out, moved to new tank, which most likely would still have ich cysts in there waiting to hatch out.

From what I understand, the 6 weeks of copper, and 2 week ttm, should double insure.me against ich. I am running prazi right now as well.

To get another new tank, equally as large and cycled, free of ich to observe, would remove me from this hobby.

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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 08:54 PM
That first paragraph even confused me.

What I am trying to say, is the new.main tank, with existing live rock, is currently fallow, and would have been 8 weeks before reintroduction of fish. That's landing option number one after ttm.

The second option is the coppered 75 gallon qt they are in currently.

If.I were to now remove the copper, and reintroduce fish for observation, being the tank was only coppered 6 weeks, any ich that hatches out up to the 72 day period, would not be met with copper, and could easily reinfect the fish, starting at square one.

Comes down to I have the qt there in, a few small rubbermaids for ttm, and my 180 display sitting fallow. Those are the cards in front of me, I am trying to make the most out of.

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spsrookie
04/16/2016, 08:55 PM
My best plan may be to, run 6 weeks, pull copper out via water change and carbon, leave fish in there copperless for a few weeks for observation, before doing ttm

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vinhle00
04/16/2016, 09:45 PM
Your best plan is to just TTM. Drop the idea of copper. If you want to be certain; clean the tanks well and dry completely between each transfer and do extra transfer after the 4th transfer. After your done regardless where you get the fish from you should do at least 5 weeks observation in a fresh clean cycled QT. you can set one up using bio spira a week before you're done with TTM.

snorvich
04/17/2016, 04:24 AM
Your best plan is to just TTM. Drop the idea of copper. If you want to be certain; clean the tanks well and dry completely between each transfer and do extra transfer after the 4th transfer. After your done regardless where you get the fish from you should do at least 5 weeks observation in a fresh clean cycled QT. you can set one up using bio spira a week before you're done with TTM.

Which is what I recommended.

spsrookie
04/17/2016, 07:07 AM
Your best plan is to just TTM. Drop the idea of copper. If you want to be certain; clean the tanks well and dry completely between each transfer and do extra transfer after the 4th transfer. After your done regardless where you get the fish from you should do at least 5 weeks observation in a fresh clean cycled QT. you can set one up using bio spira a week before you're done with TTM.
That would mean to get another tank to cycle and keep fresh after ttm for observation?

That I cant do, fiance will never listen to the first sentence asking that.

If it were up to me, ID have 7 tanks.

8 seeks fallow, 6 weeks fish in copper, 2 sessions of prazi, followed by 5 ttm transfers every 70 hours is what I'll be able to do with out finding a new place to live.

Once done, I will bleach and drain 75, let air dry for weeks, refill and cycle for any new fish I get 6 months down the road.

Any advice for ttm set up on Moorish idol and Achilles would be appreciated

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Jeff4777
04/17/2016, 11:18 AM
That would mean to get another tank to cycle and keep fresh after ttm for observation?

That I cant do, fiance will never listen to the first sentence asking that.

If it were up to me, ID have 7 tanks.

8 seeks fallow, 6 weeks fish in copper, 2 sessions of prazi, followed by 5 ttm transfers every 70 hours is what I'll be able to do with out finding a new place to live.

Once done, I will bleach and drain 75, let air dry for weeks, refill and cycle for any new fish I get 6 months down the road.

Any advice for ttm set up on Moorish idol and Achilles would be appreciated

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Yeah man I feel you.. my wife instantly shot down my multiple 40g breeder rack proposal... I let her chill out for a day without mentioning it again and then brought it up a second time. Just got to say the right things, you know your woman best. Lol. :love2:

Setting those tanks up now as I received clearance. haha

Edit - I use bins for TTM though and not glass tanks. My glass tanks are for QT / observation. Even have a dedicated formalin dip container since I don't want that chemical leeching out when I don't want it to.

spsrookie
04/17/2016, 01:53 PM
Like Rubbermaid bins? 50 watt heaters? What kind of pump?

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vinhle00
04/17/2016, 02:27 PM
Like Rubbermaid bins? 50 watt heaters? What kind of pump?

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Should go with just a cheap Air pump connected to a tube and air stone. Discard the air stone and tubing once you've transfer. Petco has some pretty cheap ones.regular pumps and powerhead wont dry very well as there are more cracks that traps water in them. With air stones they're cheap and you dont have to worry about drying it. Just put in new tube and air stones for the next tank.

spsrookie
04/17/2016, 04:34 PM
Is that enough flow for Achilles and Moorish idol?

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Jeff4777
04/17/2016, 10:49 PM
Yeah Rubbermaid bins, brute cans, glass tanks, or really whatever you want. Any size heater depending on how large you choose your containers to be. For pump I just use an air stone and throw away the hose/air stone each transfer.

krullshards
04/18/2016, 07:39 AM
Yeah Rubbermaid bins, brute cans, glass tanks, or really whatever you want. Any size heater depending on how large you choose your containers to be. For pump I just use an air stone and throw away the hose/air stone each transfer.

I think that the original question was concerning the stated needs of these fish to have strong currents for long term survival. I believe OP is asking how to recreate the currents in a quarantine setup.

I have no experience with Achilles Tangs and Moorish Idols (outside of really wanting an Achilles because it is a sweet looking fish) so I can't say if no/low currents in QT would be a problem or how long they can survive without it.

That said, I had bought a cheap Petco powerhead to aerate my 29 gallon QT while I was running prazi and it created a decent current. I would probably not bother with having a current in the TTM tanks since they are going to be in there for so short a time. Maybe wait till the last transfer to the observation tank to put in a powerhead to create the current that they need.

Jeff4777
04/18/2016, 08:25 AM
I think that the original question was concerning the stated needs of these fish to have strong currents for long term survival. I believe OP is asking how to recreate the currents in a quarantine setup.

I have no experience with Achilles Tangs and Moorish Idols (outside of really wanting an Achilles because it is a sweet looking fish) so I can't say if no/low currents in QT would be a problem or how long they can survive without it.

That said, I had bought a cheap Petco powerhead to aerate my 29 gallon QT while I was running prazi and it created a decent current. I would probably not bother with having a current in the TTM tanks since they are going to be in there for so short a time. Maybe wait till the last transfer to the observation tank to put in a powerhead to create the current that they need.

What? I was responding to:

Like Rubbermaid bins? 50 watt heaters? What kind of pump?

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Anyways, if you want more flow for your tangs use a cheap power head, just be super certain it completely dried out after a transfer.

krullshards
04/18/2016, 08:38 AM
What? I was responding to:



Anyways, if you want more flow for your tangs use a cheap power head, just be super certain it completely dried out after a transfer.

Oh, hah. Sorry. I thought your pump comment at the end was in reference to the flow question.

I agree with you regarding the pump. It might be hard to dry it inside and out. within the time frame for TTM so gotta make sure it is dry.

spsrookie
04/18/2016, 03:53 PM
May skip that step. If copper kills ich, like we have thought for years, the ttm seems like an extra step that stresses already high energy fish.

The 3 known methods of treating ich are hypo, copper and ttm. Never says to do 2 out of 3, or all 3.

If the copper doesn't work, well, apparently everything I've ever read about fish is off, and really, what do we know

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snorvich
04/18/2016, 05:30 PM
May skip that step. If copper kills ich, like we have thought for years, the ttm seems like an extra step that stresses already high energy fish.

The 3 known methods of treating ich are hypo, copper and ttm. Never says to do 2 out of 3, or all 3.

If the copper doesn't work, well, apparently everything I've ever read about fish is off, and really, what do we know

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Copper will kill ich if it is at therapeutic dose for 72 days. TTM eliminates ich in 12 days. TTM is not stressful. Copper damages fish kidneys. I can see you have learned little from this thread so I will leave you to your own devices going forward.

Jeff4777
04/19/2016, 01:05 AM
May skip that step. If copper kills ich, like we have thought for years, the ttm seems like an extra step that stresses already high energy fish.

The 3 known methods of treating ich are hypo, copper and ttm. Never says to do 2 out of 3, or all 3.

If the copper doesn't work, well, apparently everything I've ever read about fish is off, and really, what do we know

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Do what you want but understand that copper is way worse for the fish than TTM. Copper doesn't kill ich when its in a cyst waiting to hatch.. So as mentioned above, you need to leave it at full concentration for 72 days. Otherwise one will hatch and find a host fish if copper is removed after a few weeks. I can find no documentation copper kills of ich in all its life stages. Not to mention if the ich wasn't killed with copper you may not know it because the copper can be masking the disease for a while..

I played off the ideas of hypo, copper, and ttm for a while. In the end its obvious ttm is the way to go. There is no need to combine it with copper.

We know the life cycle of ich, apply that knowledge with ttm. It just makes sense and seems like the only choice to me.. If you do ttm with all new fish before going into QT it even gives you a chance to do prazi treatments every other transfer and you can do a formalin dip upon arrival. That plus 4+ weeks of observation in a sterile QT afterwards is sound way to keep nasty stuff out of your DT.

spsrookie
04/19/2016, 07:54 AM
Do what you want but understand that copper is way worse for the fish than TTM. Copper doesn't kill ich when its in a cyst waiting to hatch.. So as mentioned above, you need to leave it at full concentration for 72 days. Otherwise one will hatch and find a host fish if copper is removed after a few weeks. I can find no documentation copper kills of ich in all its life stages. Not to mention if the ich wasn't killed with copper you may not know it because the copper can be masking the disease for a while..

I played off the ideas of hypo, copper, and ttm for a while. In the end its obvious ttm is the way to go. There is no need to combine it with copper.

We know the life cycle of ich, apply that knowledge with ttm. It just makes sense and seems like the only choice to me.. If you do ttm with all new fish before going into QT it even gives you a chance to do prazi treatments every other transfer and you can do a formalin dip upon arrival. That plus 4+ weeks of observation in a sterile QT afterwards is sound way to keep nasty stuff out of your DT.
Thank you kindly for that response. Not condescending, snarky or telling me if I as little as mention or reference another author, I should just go follow there advice and you would provide yours.

It's not that I don't want to do things right, but I have seen aforementioned poster on here take three very different stands on copper in the last couple years.

I am typing on my phone, so finding said posts, copying and pasting really isn't practical, but it's been said copper for full 72 day treatment at therapeutic dose. Fair enough. Then they will say 4 weeks of copper, much different then 72. Lastly, they wrote to me copper is not effective.

That's alot of time and money at stake, for something that seems so wishy washy.

Again, thank you for your explanation and ability to do it respectfully

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