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View Full Version : Is fish disease getting worse/ harder to treat?


lespaul339
04/18/2016, 10:55 AM
This is all my personal opinion, but I feel like fish are coming in with more diseases now than they did like even 3 or 4 years ago. I used to be able to get a new fish and just quarantine and treat for the basics and after 6 weeks it would be good to go.It would never show any signs of anything. Now, every time I get a new fish it comes in with ich, flukes, or something else. And I buy from a reputable online vendor that everyone speaks very highly about. My success rate for new fish is pretty much 50/50 because they are showing up sick when I get them.

It just gets frustrating to spend money on new fish, spend money on treating them, and still having them die while in QT. I've treated fish and successfully gotten rid of ich and flukes. I've QT'd all my fish from day one. I do everything right. I research disease treatment until I've read all I can read on the subject. Then I treat exactly like I should be doing.

My point is for what we are paying for these animals, I think supply places need to set up better disease control/ protocol. All they do is treat with copper so it masks the disease. They aren't getting rid of it. They mask it, then ship it to us and then the diseased fish becomes our problem. I would gladly pay double the price for a fish to buy one that has been through quarantine and treated and guaranteed disease/parasite free when I get it.

Dmorty217
04/18/2016, 11:58 AM
I agree with what your saying. You ever notice how people in europe don't seem to have disease problems like everyone in the US does??

jbvdhp
04/18/2016, 12:02 PM
yeah dude, it sucks. I've spent so much money on fish it's not even cool anymore. I've officially given up on potter's wrasses cuz I cant keep them alive for more than 1 week, certain tangs... it's sad. I think the most common thing I've come across is Ich.

I thought I had velvet recently, but luckily that wasn't the case.

ThRoewer
04/18/2016, 12:28 PM
I don't have the same experience so far. I lost some fish that came in half dead and one that was likely caught with cyanide, but in general Cryptocaryon is all I had to deal with.
Giving every new fish a formalin bath definitely helps to keep the nasties out, and quarantine is a must anyway.
I'm also quite careful with my fish selection.

As for Europe: Many stores in Europe import directly. Europe also does not have that many large wholesalers like you find in the US. De Jong Marine Life is probably the largest and probably also the best.

Here some videos I found of some of their stock.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2kaOAN1ItxE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ljOBxe48v0E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

snorvich
04/18/2016, 01:07 PM
After ten years in this forum, order of encounter by frequency:

1. flukes
2. Ich
3. Brook
4. Velvet
5. Uronema
6. Black Ich
7. Septicemia

ThRoewer
04/18/2016, 01:46 PM
After ten years in this forum, order of encounter by frequency:

1. flukes
2. Ich
3. Brook
4. Velvet
5. Uronema
6. Black Ich
7. Septicemia

On which fish do you usually find flukes. And are those actually flukes (Trematodes) or rather Monogeneans (https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033) (which are not flukes)?

snorvich
04/18/2016, 01:55 PM
On which fish do you usually find flukes. And are those actually flukes (Trematodes) or rather Monogeneans (https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033) (which are not flukes)?

Angelfish, some tangs. Trematodes. However I have not tried to categorize so species is highly subjective.

krullshards
04/18/2016, 01:57 PM
On which fish do you usually find flukes. And are those actually flukes (Trematodes) or rather Monogeneans (https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa033) (which are not flukes)?

Is treatment for Monogeneans different than for Trematodes?

snorvich
04/18/2016, 02:32 PM
Flukes – General Guidelines

Some facts:
Flukes are not true flukes. They are actually parasitic flatworms belonging to the class of Monogeans.

There are 13 families of flukes. However, only three families infect saltwater fish.

1. Ancyrocephaladae – common to freshwater, brackish and marine fish. They have 14 hooks which insert into the fish’s skin to maintain contact. They are oviviparous (egg layer). They are not host specific and they prefer the fish’s gills and esophagus.

2. Gyrodactylidae – common in freshwater but can be found on saltwater fish. They have 16 hooks and are viviparous (live bearing). This family of flukes is considered “Russian dolls” meaning that a live daughter is inside the mother and the live daughter can also be carrying a live daughter.

3. Capsalidae – common in saltwater fish. They have 2 hooks and are oviviparous. The most common genus of Capsalid found in saltwater aquaria is the Neobenedenia. It is host specific, attacking angelfish, butterflyfish, and elasmobranchs, to name a few targets and location specific (face, lips, and eyes). However, if a fish has an extensive infestation the fluke will find somewhere else on the body to host.

Luckily for aquarists, the life cycle of flukes has been researched due their ill effects on aquaculture farming and the fishing industry. Extensive studies have been done on Neobenedenia, the most common in saltwater aquaria.

Life Cycle

At 78-79° F eggs hatch within 4-6 days. Once the egg hatches the oncomiridium (ciliated larva) finds a host and crawls on the body to their preferred site. Once they dig their hooks into the fish’s flesh they feed on it for 17-19 days. At that point it has matured to an adult and it begins to lay eggs. The cycle starts over. At lower water temperatures, 34-36°F the timeline can extend to 5-6 months.

Symptoms

Fish can become lethargic, swim near the water surface, develop clamped fins, hide in the corner of the aquarium or behind rocks, lose appetite, shake the head, flash, or scratch. They may exhibit yawning, cloudy eyes and loss of color at the insertion site. For example, Neobenedenia prefers the face, lips and eyes; therefore you may notice the skin color faded in those areas. If flukes are present in the gills they may be swollen and pale, increase respiration, and begin piping (gulping air at the water surface). Fish generally become less tolerant of low oxygen conditions. Secondary infections are also very common. Some fish may not show any symptoms at all which is why quarantining is so important.

Treatments

Because flukes are naturally clear a visual confirmation is nearly impossible. Confirmation of flukes can be obtained via a freshwater dip. After 3-5 minutes the fluke will become opaque and dislodge from the fish. Although helpful, it is not a necessity, to identify the fluke’s family to aid in treatment. A microscope can confirm a species, however, Neobenedenia, can be seen with the naked eye.

1. Praziquantel or Prazipro – There have been several studies demonstrating various applications of Prazi. For practicality only a couple is listed. Prazi does not kill flukes. It induces uncontrollable spasms to where the fluke dislodges from the fish and continues to spasm. Studies have shown that after 10 hours the fluke dies. Prazi is very gentle on fish to the point it can be overdosed with no ill effects. The exception is wrasses. They are able to handle the 2.5 mg dosage but anything over that can be detrimental. It has also been reported that Prazi is safe to use in a reef aquarium with minimal casualties such as feathers and other worms. A word of caution: Prazi can act as an appetite suppressant. It also depletes the oxygen in the tank so be sure to fully aerate during treatment.

a. The most common method of dosing Prazi is dosing 2.5 mg for 5-7 days, then performing a water change, and finally redosing the full amount for another 5-7 days. A third and fourth dose may be necessary. Prazipro is reportedly (via personal communication with Hikari) “out of the water” 72 hours after the initial dose. However, once treatment is concluded it is recommended to do a large water change and add carbon to remove all traces of Prazi.

b. Another method is to do (2) 40 hour baths 48 hours apart in 5 mg/L Prazi.
NOTE: In 2013 research done, as reported in Aquaculture Volumes 404-405 Prazipro was shown to be 82% effective against Neobenedenia girallae.

2. Hyposalinity – Scientific research also showed hyposalinity at 15 ppt for 2 days eliminated juvenile and adult flukes. When maintained for 5 days, egg hatching was prevented.

3. Formalin dips – Water temp <70° 250 ppm for 30 minutes, water temp >70° or formalin sensitive fish 150 ppm for no more than 45 minutes. These dips can be repeated every 5-7 days. As always with formalin most folks aerate for at least one hour prior to dip. Another reason to do this peior to TTM

4. Freshwater dips – can be effective against skin flukes, however, it is ineffective against flukes in the gills.

Monitoring the fish for 30 days after treatment has concluded is important. Fish may continue to scratch after treatment due to their skin healing from the fluke’s hooks that were inserted into their skin. Confirmation of eradication can be confirmed by performing freshwater dips, skins scrapes and fin clipping. Obviously these should only be done by those with experience.

The life cycle without a host can be completed within a few days. An adult can live up to 6 days without a host. After an egg hatches the oncomiridium must find a host within 36 hours or it will die. A fluke cannot attack an invertebrate or coral. There are no reports of flukes or eggs lying dormant as in Cryptocaryon. Equipment can be cleaned with hot water and bleach and thoroughly dried. As with all parasites and diseases avoid cross contamination with hands, equipment, water and food.

From the sticky. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388423)

Naraku
04/19/2016, 06:51 AM
I keep having to deal with lympho no matter the source I use and even when I bleach the tank.

I think the problem is at the supplier's end.

Call me paranoid but I think there is only 3 possibilities to our problem

1) Suppliers are carelessly treating fish. The disease are getting resistant because the suppliers are not properly treating.

2) The environment is changing and fish are being more infected in nature.

3) Suppliers purposely let the issue from 1) run its course, since more fish die, more people buy more fish and they get more money. Price hikes on fish is already happening. For example, yellow tangs used to be $20-30. Now its $40-50 and they are in poorer condition too.

Naraku
04/19/2016, 06:54 AM
I would rather cut out the middleman to get cheaper fish and less exposure to disease via proximity to other fish from around the globe.

Most LFS will hold fish in bags for you if you pick them up right away.

I don't have the same experience so far. I lost some fish that came in half dead and one that was likely caught with cyanide, but in general Cryptocaryon is all I had to deal with.
Giving every new fish a formalin bath definitely helps to keep the nasties out, and quarantine is a must anyway.
I'm also quite careful with my fish selection.

As for Europe: Many stores in Europe import directly. Europe also does not have that many large wholesalers like you find in the US. De Jong Marine Life is probably the largest and probably also the best.

Here some videos I found of some of their stock.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2kaOAN1ItxE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ljOBxe48v0E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

lespaul339
04/19/2016, 07:15 AM
I keep having to deal with lympho no matter the source I use and even when I bleach the tank.

I think the problem is at the supplier's end.

Call me paranoid but I think there is only 3 possibilities to our problem

1) Suppliers are carelessly treating fish. The disease are getting resistant because the suppliers are not properly treating.

2) The environment is changing and fish are being more infected in nature.

3) Suppliers purposely let the issue from 1) run its course, since more fish die, more people buy more fish and they get more money. Price hikes on fish is already happening. For example, yellow tangs used to be $20-30. Now its $40-50 and they are in poorer condition too.

I agree with everything you've just said. I also have fish coming in with bad lympho as well. I think the suppliers out of california just don't care. Which is sad, because we are taking some of these animals from nature and yet they don't care about the animals well being. You can't tell me they don't know that they are sending these fish out sick and looking like crap. I also think you are right about it possibly getting worse in nature. Maybe it's getting to hard for the suppliers to treat as well?

microlady
04/19/2016, 09:44 PM
I agree that my experiences with online vendors have gotten worse. Fish are coming in with flukes, ich, velvet, Brook, Lympho, etc. not to mention possible cyanide or other toxic poisoning symptoms. I had a flame angel that didn't eat for three weeks and swam around in a daze the whole time. That one came from the Divers Den! It really is ridiculous. The only fish I have right now are the survivors of some bad outbreaks and a couple of fish I've adopted from other reefers. I am very gun shy about buying more fish right now. No local source can really be trusted, and I refuse to mail order more diseased fish. It really is disheartening that these fish are taken from the ocean and left to die of parasites in the dealers tanks, or they are shipped to us with these diseases and are so stressed out that we can't even save them most of the time.