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Gymped
04/25/2016, 11:28 AM
I just recently set up my 34 gallon red sea reefer and in the mist of getting equipment I always make sure to get a grounding probe for my tanks. Now at my current apartment they wont install a new outlet with GFCI for me. my question is will my grounding probe even function if plugged directly into a normal outlet or surge protector? I considered a surge protector with GFCI but those don't seem to function as true GFCIs. Any and all help is appreciate as I don't want to take the chance of any stray voltage in the tank.

AZRippster
04/25/2016, 11:50 AM
Do not use grounding probes. They are a scam and can cause harm. Please see the attached PDF.

alton
04/25/2016, 12:02 PM
Purchase a portable GFCI receptacle, just make sure it is UL Listed

Gymped
04/25/2016, 12:14 PM
Alton will 2 of these work?

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-2-ft-In-Line-GFCI-Cord-30338213/203741466

Work and what do you think about a grounding probe Alton or other members?

motocrf450176
04/25/2016, 12:31 PM
great information, thank you.

alton
04/25/2016, 12:37 PM
Yes
The jury is out on stray voltage whether it hurts anything because it is induced voltage which is worthless and has no power. Since your tank is insulated, if something goes bad and leaks current into your tank with out a grounding probe, you will create the grounding means and hopefully it trips at 4 to 6 milliamps. I can tell you that a 3 milliamp shock is pretty bad. The biggest issue I ran into was a service call to a friends house where he was only getting two volts when measuring voltage, but it shocked the heck out of you. Investigating I found his service ground was not adequate enough, so it was using his tank as a supplemental ground which was very dangerous. And at the same time his security company grabbed a cold water ground, so he was getting shocked while getting into the shower. I added a second ground rod, and the problem stopped. Something else that added to the problem was at a secondary panel the installing electrical contractor had placed the grounding conductors on the neutral bar, and did not install a separate grounding bar.

Gymped
04/25/2016, 12:52 PM
your electrical expertise is far past mine Alton, The product I linked if I went with 2 of those would you use or not use a grounding probe. I know everyone has their own opinions but your knowledge is far greater than mine so I would like to know what you would do.

alton
04/25/2016, 01:03 PM
Stray voltage comes from open lamps to water and internal pumps and heaters. I use external (Pan world or Vectra) or 12 volt DC pumps (Tunze) along with glass tops on my aquariums, if I use a heater and or internal pumps I use a grounding probe only after checking for an adequate ground. Heaters are probably our worst culprit in our hobby today.

Gymped
04/25/2016, 01:29 PM
Well I will only have access to the 2 3 Outletted GFCI Cords im plugging directly into the wall so what should I do?

alton
04/25/2016, 02:00 PM
Well I will only have access to the 2 3 Outletted GFCI Cords im plugging directly into the wall so what should I do?

I don't understand?

sleepydoc
04/25/2016, 05:48 PM
Ground probes are kind of like religion for some people - you'll never convince them one way or another and the number of anecdotes far exceeds the hard data that's out there. Rippster gave about as much hard data as I've seen.

In regards to GFCIs, as Alton said, you can buy a GFCI plug like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-Plug-In-GFCI-Adapter-3-Wire-Grounding-30339036/203741464) or like this (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Defiant-2-ft-In-Line-GFCI-Cord-30338213/203741466) and simply plug your equipment into it.

Well I will only have access to the 2 3 Outletted GFCI Cords im plugging directly into the wall so what should I do?
I think you're asking how you handle more than 6 devices when you can only plug a 3 outlet adapter into each socket of the wall receptacle giving you 6 total GFCI outlets. If that's your question, you don't need to worry about it. Simply plug your power strip into the GFCI adapter and then every outlet in the strip is protected.

Note there is a difference between GFCI, surge suppression, AFCI (arc fault circuit interruption) and grounding probes. They all do different things.

GFCI outlets protect you from becoming an alternate current path to ground, generally tripping if more than 5 mA of current is detected outside the 'normal' current path. Their sole purpose is to keep you from getting electrocuted (and to pass inspection :bigeyes:)
Surge suppressors protect your equipment from a power surge. They do nothing to protect you from getting electrocuted.
AFCI breakers are designed to detect arcing in a circuit that is a sign of a bad wiring that could cause a fire. They also do nothing to protect you directly.
Ground probes form a current path to ground, putting the tank at '0' volts. Note that if there is a voltage in the tank, this will actually increase the current flow. If you have a GFCI outlet and a ground probe, the ground probe will cause the GFCI to trip if enough current is flowing.

Gymped
04/25/2016, 05:53 PM
If it does trip would it just trip one of the GFCI Adapters or the whole wall outlet. Im thinking of the scenario where it falsely trips it and then I have no power in that outlet until maintenance can get to my apartment with a work order than can take weeks. Sleepy Doc if I can do that with the surge into the GFCI adapter then I will be fine in terms of number of outlets but for the tanks sake when running what do you think should go into each. Lights and chiller on one and then Heater, Pump, Powerhead on another? Because obviously if it trips id still need my tank to survive if it trips the outlet Im wondering what my best route is.

Skim
04/26/2016, 01:06 AM
If you are trying to protect yourself in case of a heater braking or pump cord fraying that maybe worth doing, but if it's for stray voltage don't even bother because you can cause more harm than good. The number one rule is never work on your tank without some sort of shoes, especially if in basement on concrete floor. You are also better off trying to run or switch everything to DC pumps, that would leave just the heater.

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 05:35 AM
You must run GFCI protection.. 2 of the defiant devices in the link about will work just fine.. there are plenty of others others out there..
Use 2 so that you can split your equipment up over the 2 so in the event of one tripping you still have some equipment up and running.. Split power heads across the 2 or whatever to keep flow going..

I personally run a ground probe solely because "if" a problem develops in the tank the GFCI will trip immediately and not wait for me to become the path that causes it to trip..
My choice has NOTHING to do with "stray voltage"


And do NOT run a ground probe without GFCI protection.. In order for it to work properly/safely it must be on a tank with GFCI.



Oh And IF a GFCI outlet like you linked above "trips" it will not trip the whole rooms breaker.. Just stops electricity from it forward and you can simply reset it yourself (after you fix the reason it tripped) with the reset button right on the device.. No need for maintenance of any sort to do something for you

Piranha_Owns
04/26/2016, 07:48 AM
As a ticketed IBEW member, not using a grounding probe is a risk you should not be taking.

Piranha_Owns
04/26/2016, 07:53 AM
I=E/R. E=0, I=0 period

Gymped
04/26/2016, 08:49 AM
yes but mcgyvr if it trips on one of the two defiant devices will it stop the other top or bottom outlet from working too if so my tank is dead in the water no matter what. I mean I guess now im going to have to buy a battery backup just for the powerhead.

Skim
04/26/2016, 11:09 AM
You also have to remember that any Stray Voltage will be felt by whatever is in the tank if you run a ground probe. Just something to keep in mind.

Gymped
04/26/2016, 11:29 AM
Im more worried about the live stock than myself Skim, I can always wear rubber grounded shoes. So then you are advising against the Probe? So the probe will make the stray voltage hit the whole tank if I have a probe?

Mr. Brooks
04/26/2016, 11:57 AM
So if I run two separate GFCI outlets on two separate circuits, and use a grounding probe on both circuits, I'm protecting myself from electrocution, correct? As soon as there is stray voltage, it should trip one of the GFCI's, protecting not only me but the tank inhabitants as well, correct? The redundancy of having the second circuit should keep water flowing, right? Seems like this is a subject filled with misinformation.. Would like to know I'm setting this up correctly. I'm more concerned about my safety than the safety of my tank.

Gymped
04/26/2016, 12:36 PM
Im just going to run the Ground into GFCI for my safety but like Skim said if there is stray voltage I guess they will feel it, I will go with the assumption that the GFCI will trigger and save the animals before get shocked to death and rely on my battery back up on powerheads if I am not home. All new equipment with proven brands lets hope for best.

Piranha_Owns
04/26/2016, 03:34 PM
There will not be stray voltage if you use a grounding probe !

See formula above if you have questions !

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 04:17 PM
yes but mcgyvr if it trips on one of the two defiant devices will it stop the other top or bottom outlet from working too if so my tank is dead in the water no matter what. I mean I guess now im going to have to buy a battery backup just for the powerhead.

No it will not trip the second one....
If you plug 2 GFCI "pigtails" like the links above and one trips the other is completely unaffected..
A GFCI is only effecting devices "down stream"..

Gymped
04/26/2016, 04:29 PM
but if I run the return and the Powerhead off different GFCI pig tails then I would need 2 grounding probes to have it work effectively what is the best course of action for all of these

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 04:30 PM
So if I run two separate GFCI outlets on two separate circuits, and use a grounding probe on both circuits, I'm protecting myself from electrocution, correct?

Correct.. However you only need 1 ground probe.. Not one for each.

As soon as there is stray voltage, it should trip one of the GFCI's, protecting not only me but the tank inhabitants as well, correct?
The problem is NOT stray voltage. Forget stray voltage... No one needs to worry about it.
The problem is when a heater, pump or whatever develops a leak thus potentially exposing you to line (mains) voltage. The fact that you have a ground probe will immediately cause a loss of balance in the GFCI device between Line and Neutral (because some current is flowing directly to ground) and it will trip the instant the leak happens..

If you didn't have a ground probe then that line voltage will be present until you stick your hand in there and assuming something else on your body is grounded or at a different potential and you will then become the path for current until the GFCI trips..

In reality with a properly functioning GFCI you really don't need a ground probe.. BUT GFCI's do fail and I'd rather the cheap metal rod be the one that finds out of the GFCI is working and not me..

The redundancy of having the second circuit should keep water flowing, right?

Yes.. Essentially/ultimately you split all your equipment so that you still keep half the heaters on, half the pumps, etc... in the unlikely event that the GFCI trips.

Seems like this is a subject filled with misinformation.. Would like to know I'm setting this up correctly. I'm more concerned about my safety than the safety of my tank.

yes there is quite a bit of misinformation..
Hopefully its clear now..

Again..
GFCI = must for any submerged mains powered equipment
Ground probe = good to have and let it take the hit if a GFCI fails to operate
Stray voltage = forget you ever heard anything about it..

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 04:33 PM
but if I run the return and the Powerhead off different GFCI pig tails then I would need 2 grounding probes to have it work effectively what is the best course of action for all of these

No just 1 ground probe for the whole tank.. the grounds on both are always connected regardless of if the GFCI is tripped or not.. a GFCI only disconnects line and neutral.. The ground (and ground probes) are always connected and shared between all ground pins in your entire house.. (unless there is a wiring fault)

Gymped
04/26/2016, 04:33 PM
ACTUALLY I just thought of this. The Heater and the Return are the only potential voltages in the water as I have MP10s I could run the Heater and return on the one with the ground and the Light and MP10 on the other GFCI


I say this because if one trips I want the Powerhead or the Pump to keep functioning until I can get home to fix it all.

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 04:56 PM
Anything with DC voltage only running into the tank does not need GFCI protection..
Same goes for any overhead lighting where the ac/dc power adapter or ballast is remote and not mounted over the tank..
So it sounds like you only need 1 GFCI circuit with the heater/return pump on it..
But I don't know what light you have so I don't know if it would be good to have one on it..
I run the OceanRevive LEDs and have them on GFCI because the AC cord runs all the way to the fixture itself and could potentially fall into the water..

Mr. Brooks
04/26/2016, 05:30 PM
Ok awesome thank you! I will only use one ground probe. Thanks again!

mcgyvr
04/26/2016, 05:59 PM
Ok awesome thank you! I will only use one ground probe. Thanks again!

You're welcome..:thumbsup:

ADVRESOURCE
05/22/2016, 11:27 PM
Yes
The jury is out on stray voltage whether it hurts anything because it is induced voltage which is worthless and has no power. Since your tank is insulated, if something goes bad and leaks current into your tank with out a grounding probe, you will create the grounding means and hopefully it trips at 4 to 6 milliamps. I can tell you that a 3 milliamp shock is pretty bad. The biggest issue I ran into was a service call to a friends house where he was only getting two volts when measuring voltage, but it shocked the heck out of you. Investigating I found his service ground was not adequate enough, so it was using his tank as a supplemental ground which was very dangerous. And at the same time his security company grabbed a cold water ground, so he was getting shocked while getting into the shower. I added a second ground rod, and the problem stopped. Something else that added to the problem was at a secondary panel the installing electrical contractor had placed the grounding conductors on the neutral bar, and did not install a separate grounding bar.

It's used so you don't get shocked. Open loop so livestock doesn't care.

ADVRESOURCE
05/22/2016, 11:31 PM
A ground probe assists in tripping gfi. Otherwise voltage is looking for a return and the most likely will be you cleaning your tank. ,not safe. Con is when gfi blows your pumps will power off with gfi trip, I'd rather protect user.