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ClownNut
04/25/2016, 11:51 AM
Here's the base
ATI 8X54W fixture
ATI(2XBlue+) Vs E5(2XBlue Pop)
the ATI bulb are just over 1 years old. (14 months)
i tested 4 spots with an apogee par meters
ATI Blue +
65 118 85 55
Blue Pop
45 65 55 35

with kill a watt. it pull the same amount of power as T5(117-119)

as far as the result i am not surprise, the T5 are all about reflectors. the backside of the E5 is heatsink which will decrease the amount of light output.

i am surprised by the killawatt reading.


another issue, the bulbs have to be "touch" in order for the bulbs to fire, i have to monkey around with it to turn the bulb out of the lock position before it will fire everytime when i turn it on and off or plug and unplug.

post your results if you got any.

AZRippster
04/25/2016, 11:53 AM
I'm not surprised about your Kill-A-Watt results as the E5 are using the existing T5 ballasts.

gus6464
04/25/2016, 02:53 PM
So the whole using less energy is a bogus claim I see.

ClownNut
04/25/2016, 03:17 PM
only if you use a less wattage ballast to fire them. if you are ati fan, the you know how much PITA to take a part the fixture. on top of that, the E5 output is terrible compare to a 1 year+ ati bulbs. what's the point to have less light.

you save no energy, cost 3 times, almost lose 50% light output and last 8 years(if they hold up). i am kinda disappointed with the test. i thought we might have break through.

also the E5 are popping the corals better but dim very dim compare to 2 blue+.

Big E
04/26/2016, 04:07 AM
They also aren't a direct replacement for a Blue+ bulb............you're essentially putting a weak reefbrite( LED 450 strip) in your fixture.

A blue+ bulb carries many more spectrum colors than a Blue pop. If you run an Sps tank this is an issue.

So far, the only value I see in the blue pop bulb is as a 450nm supplement and you can do that for less electricity with an LED strip.

gus6464
04/26/2016, 05:04 PM
They also aren't a direct replacement for a Blue+ bulb............you're essentially putting a weak reefbrite( LED 450 strip) in your fixture.

A blue+ bulb carries many more spectrum colors than a Blue pop. If you run an Sps tank this is an issue.

So far, the only value I see in the blue pop bulb is as a 450nm supplement and you can do that for less electricity with an LED strip.
The manufacturer markets these bulbs as direct T5 replacements that produce the same amount of light while using less electricity and lasting longer. So far 0 of these claims have been shown to be true.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

oreo57
04/26/2016, 05:49 PM
Apogee (old style) PAR sensor has some problems w/ blue.
The 450nm LED's would peak at 450.. meaning 1/2 of the output is to the left of 450 putting it in the "bad" zone of the Apogee..
don't trust those readings:
http://i573.photobucket.com/albums/ss176/Hoppycalif/PARMeter7SpectralResponse_zpscc65c70c.jpg

Much lower power consumption with the same output as T5HO lamps
Lights might have lower power consumption but it doesn't mean "system watts" aren't the same
EDIT:
Considering the spectra of the ATI the 2 should "wash" in the blue w/ errors..but I still think your measurements need a better sensor to verify.
Last but not least, it could also depend on the "driver" ballast..

http://www.ultimatereef.net/uploader/2010Q3/blue%20tubes.jpg
450 led:
http://www.prizmatix.com/pic1/uhp//UHP-Mic-LED-450nm-Spectrum-s.jpg
Point is to be careful w/ generalities based on unknown errors..

gus6464
04/27/2016, 11:04 AM
The old Apogee unit is 10% off in the 450nm range. The measurement is considerably worse the closer you get to violet which the Blue+ has more output in. So to say that the Blue Pop is at a disadvantage is completely false and quite the opposite.

OP is using ATI fixture which means the ballasts are HEP. HEP ballast factor is 0.98 with a power factor of 1. The total power will be very close to the rated wattage of the bulbs used. Euro claims 40% power reduction and it's not happening.

Also Marine Depot has dropped this product which is quite suspect as they were promoting it hard before and after release.

oreo57
04/27/2016, 11:22 AM
Best to read all my response:
EDIT:
Considering the spectra of the ATI the 2 should "wash" in the blue w/ errors..but I still think your measurements need a better sensor to verify.
Last but not least, it could also depend on the "driver" ballast..

Point is not to rely on inaccurate measuring instruments esp. when the inaccuracies are in the bandwidths in question..
to be honest, more like common sense..
A new Apogee may show the exact same thing..but...
Using a ballast to run an LED is also a pretty poor idea, since you have little idea of the real parameters of it.

Euroquatics
04/27/2016, 12:33 PM
The power savings is completely valid, tested and proven! We have shown it at shows with two identical off-the-shelf fixtures. Here's the kill-a-watt proof.

We have no idea why you didn't see the proper reduction as we weren't involved in the test, but the power savings are in fact true as reported/shown.

This is two T5 lamps vs 2 E5 lamps.

As far as the PAR reading. The Blue+ lamp is a wider spectrum lamp than the Blue Pop. The Blue Pop is not advertised as a full/wide spectrum lamp so the different in PAR is expected. The change in PAR readings on the full spectrum lamps is a different story, the levels are much closer. However, you have to compare lamps of "similar" spectral output to get a true comparison.

Euroquatics
04/27/2016, 12:38 PM
..

Also Marine Depot has dropped this product which is quite suspect as they were promoting it hard before and after release.

Also, this was a mutual break. As our two companies are taking different approaches going forward in this industry.

Euroquatics
04/27/2016, 12:42 PM
The manufacturer markets these bulbs as direct T5 replacements that produce the same amount of light while using less electricity and lasting longer. So far 0 of these claims have been shown to be true.


This is completely inaccurate and we've shown it in this thread.

Euroquatics
04/27/2016, 12:55 PM
It's also important to note (as we talked about at the RAP show this weekend), the output of our lamps VS T5 is very clear.

1) T5 PAR discussion
1.1) T5s drop in PAR about 10-20% by the 6-12 month point (depends on a number of points)
1.2) T5 spectrum is also unstable as they age
1.3) These two important facts is whey T5 manufactures direct customers to change lamps between 6-12 months (depending on lamp)

2) E5 PAR discussion
2.1) We stated (at RAP with customers) that the E5 PAR levels are less than a brand new T5 lamp, this changes over the life of a T5 as they not only lose their pure PAR value, but also the quality of their spectrum.
2.2) The E5 will maintain PAR and spectrum for a MUCH longer time which has many benefits to the aquarium such as reduced stress on coral because of lamp changes and reduced overall cost to the customer (while still growing coral).

3) Comparing lamps
3.1) As we also said MANY times PAR is an incomplete number you must have spectrum to validate a PAR value. Without it, you have just a value and your coral do not just want a big number. With many T5s you have the classic "green spike" which affects PAR reading in a range that you coral need very little in (they use that range just not in the huge amounts that T5 produce).
3.2) So a higher PAR reading is completely meaningless unless you have the other part which is spectrum, that's something that T5s cannot produce (referencing manufactures data sheets).

4) Lastly fixtures matter...
We have seen some of the dim-able ATI fixtures that seem to perform oddly with E5s, this is not all units but some. When this happens we HAVE seen reduced output levels and performance issues. The issue is not consistent nor have we been able to track down the root cause of the inconsistent behavior.

ClownNut
04/27/2016, 01:34 PM
i would love to see a comparison of more than just one fixture on the wattage use.
most the T5 users have ati/giesemann/pacific sun/aquaticlife maybe tek. would love to see all those reading, other than just the lower end one like aquaticlife.

on the apogee Sun vs. Electric, results are about the same
i have the same reading with my apex par meter.
which par meter will do the tricks?

when will the E5 have the same out put as t5 since the T5 will lose par over time. assuming we run the t5 6hr per day.

oreo57
04/27/2016, 02:42 PM
on the apogee Sun vs. Electric, results are about the same
i have the same reading with my apex par meter.
which par meter will do the tricks?


From a completely "scientific" standpoint either a Li-Cor or the new Apogee sensor.


February 19 2016, Jake Adams –

The Apogee MQ-500 quantum meter is a new and improved light measuring device which gives more accurate readings under all light types. For many years the Apogee MQ-200 with its long waterproof sensor has been the gold standard in measuring light in our aquariums.

However in recent years it has come to light that the type of sensor used in the MQ-200 and other PAR meters have been overly sensitive to the type of light produced by light emitting diodes, and giving inaccurately bright readings. The MQ-500 rectifies this discrepancy giving much better and more accurate readings of photosynthetically active radiation from all types of light, including LEDs.

Since the explosion of LED lighting over our reef tanks, we’ve grown increasingly skeptical of the actual readings coming from our MQ-200 PAR meter, and hence have shied away from using it as much as we did back in the Halide and Fluorescent lighting days. According to Apogee, what makes the new SQ-500 so much better is “The new 500 series sensors feature an entirely new detector that took over two years to develop. It now matches the ideal quantum spectrum much more closely than the old detector”.

As to some of the PAR discussion above, in a sense thay are really talking PUR vs PAR..
W/ green being "less effective" (a bit arguable) the weighting of a "tube" needs a correction but really splitting hairs.

2) E5 PAR discussion
2.1) We stated (at RAP with customers) that the E5 PAR levels are less than a brand new T5 lamp, this changes over the life of a T5 as they not only lose their pure PAR value, but also the quality of their spectrum.

now there is the unknown marketing part.. "More PAR over the life of the unit".. ;)

Personally saving "watts" between t5 and LED is not a primary concern really..
When they start adding the 200 lumen/watt (or 2x any current power vs output metric) emitters we can talk.. ;)

most LED "power savings" come from the fact you aren't throwing photons in a 360 degree scatter, hoping you can re-direct them to where you want them..........
Apparently a 2 edged sword though.

Euroquatics
04/27/2016, 02:53 PM
i would love to see a comparison of more than just one fixture on the wattage use.
most the T5 users have ati/giesemann/pacific sun/aquaticlife maybe tek. would love to see all those reading, other than just the lower end one like aquaticlife.

on the apogee Sun vs. Electric, results are about the same
i have the same reading with my apex par meter.
which par meter will do the tricks?

when will the E5 have the same out put as t5 since the T5 will lose par over time. assuming we run the t5 6hr per day.

Who runs their T5s only 6 hours? Tanks that run complete on T5 usually run 8-10 hours. Maybe one of the channels, but not main lighting.

The APEX meeter is the same as the apogee from what I've seen it's just rebadged (i.e. Neptune does not make the sensor)

The high end licor meters do a good job of measuring.

On the power issue, we've measured several, all with the same results. That was an image I had from a show.

oreo57
04/27/2016, 02:58 PM
So on average you are talking $32 savings in electricity per year.. ;)

The average price people in the U.S. pay for electricity is about 12 cents per kilowatt-hour.

206-115 =91 x 8 x 365 / 1000 x .12 =
Correct??

ClownNut
04/28/2016, 11:59 AM
Who runs their T5s only 6 hours? Tanks that run complete on T5 usually run 8-10 hours. Maybe one of the channels, but not main lighting.

The APEX meeter is the same as the apogee from what I've seen it's just rebadged (i.e. Neptune does not make the sensor)

The high end licor meters do a good job of measuring.

On the power issue, we've measured several, all with the same results. That was an image I had from a show.

I do my main 6 only run about 6 hrs.
But you didn't answer the question. When will the e5 meet up with t5 on the par output?

tc2007
04/28/2016, 12:32 PM
Question for Euroquatics. Since Marine Depot no longer sells E5, where do we buy it in USA with warranty?