Livestock Questions

[malx]

Hi, Everyone.

I'm building a custom reef tank from scratch. I pretty much have all of my gear decided on, but want to know how many fish I can add. I'll be running soft corals only. Here are the specs.

The tank is 62.3 gallons based on measurements of 36x20x20. I will be running the top waterline at 17 so that gives me a total water volume of 53.0 gallons and a surface area of 720in2. Based on this calculator I can have 15 inches of fish. http://www.howmanyfish.com/

Also, I am over-engineering this tank filtration wise and all of the filtration I will have is designed to filter a tank that is 120-150 gallon. Doing this to be able to keep the lowest nutrient environment and reduce water changes.

The main components of my filtration will be:

Ruby 36 Sump will run a Refugium with Keto Algae and a Kessil Grow Light http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/ruby-sump-36-trigger-systems.html
Vertex Omega 150 Skimmer: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vertex-omega-150-protein-skimmer.html
Theiling Rollermat: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/automatic-roller-mat-theiling.html
Vertex 6D Calcium Reactor: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vertex-rx-c-6d-calcium-reactor.html
Vertex Zeolite Reactor: http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/vertex-rx-z-1-5-zeolite-reactor.html


Note the total water volume of the sump is 36.5 gallons and will add 525in2 of surface area of 11 inches of fish.

Here are my questions.
1: When calculating how much fish/livestock you can keep, do you include the sump water volume and surface area in it?
2: Here's the livestock list I am interested in:

3x Domino Damsel
3x Green Chromis
1x Flame Hawk
1x Royal Gramma
1x Percula Clownfish
1x Lemonpeel Angelfish
1x Sandsifting Goby
1x Pom Pom Crab
1x Blood Shrimp
4x Snails
4x Hermits


If I needed to reduce the amount of fish I could do...

1x Domino Damsel
1x Green Chromis
1x Blue Chromis
1x Flame Hawk
1x Royal Gramma
1x Percula Clownfish
1x Lemonpeel Angelfish
1x Sandsifting Goby
1x Pom Pom Crab
1x Blood Shrimp
4x Snails
4x Hermits


Anything think this will work or am I overstocking?

[randomfishguy85]

The domino damsel isnt going to work. Too large and too aggressive. The flame hawk will eat the shrimp. Im not sure if a sand sifting goby can survive in a tank that size( if you are talking sleeper goby), you may want to try something like a watchman goby or and shrimp goby instead

[malx]

The domino damsel isnt going to work. Too large and too aggressive. The flame hawk will eat the shrimp. Im not sure if a sand sifting goby can survive in a tank that size( if you are talking sleeper goby), you may want to try something like a watchman goby or and shrimp goby instead

Ok. So scratch the Domino and Flame Hawk. I wanted the Goby to be able to clean up the sand. Have a recommendation of a fish that will sift the sand to keep the debris off of it?

Green and Blue Chromis ok? Maybe give me one more fish that you recommend? Instead of the 3x domino's what about another type of fish that's black and white that's not large and aggressive.

Let me know and thanks in advance!

[malx]

What about a Linespot Flasher Wrasse?


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[OrionN]

Unless you put a lid on your tank wrasse is a bad idea

[OrionN]

I would not use a sand shifting fish. In that small of a tank, the sand shifting will decimated and remove all the sand fauna, make it impossible to keep a live sand bed. A little stick and stir the sand occasionally would be what I would do.
Lemonpeel Angel will get a little big for this tank. Maybe one of the smaller angel. If you like yellow, maybe a yellow angel (C. heraldi). Several other angels maybe suitable include Flame, Flameback, Cherub... All of these are smaller than Lemonpeel.
Avoid Domino damsel or chromis. Chromis will not shoal or school. Then tent to pick each other off until there is one large one. Bright blue and yellow active small fish, nothing beat Azure or Yellow tail damsels. Get a pair of either and they will breed in your tank. I like Yellow tail better
Like I wrote earlier, avoid wrasse unless you are going to put a tight fit top in your tank
Royal Gramma is a good choice, but they tend to loose color unless your tank is in great condition and feeding exceptional variety diet. Get two Orchid Dottyback, they are much better choice in my opinion. A pair of Percula. However, I like to have anemones with clownfish. They are much more interesting living in their anemone. I am not sure if you are up to this.

When possible, I like to keep breeding units instead of singleton. This is not possible for all fish or in a small tank like your's. All the fish I suggested above have good temperament and will not be a bully in a tank like your's.

[scooter31707]

There is a chance the Flame Hawk may eat your shrimp. I had my Hawk for 1.5 years now and he hasn't paid any attention to the inverts (shrimp included), just depends on the fish. I think you will have a better chance if the shrimp is a good size and is in the tank before the Hawk. Also, IMO the Lemonpeel Dwarf Angel will need a bigger tank. They are one of the bigger species of the Dwarfs.

[juniorrocketdad]

Flame hawk will eat shrimp, damsels will be Devils, chronic will get uronema unless properly quarantined lemon peel will eat a lot of coral Pom Pom crab may attack fish/coral sand sifting goby will make a sandstorm in that size tank

[malx]

Flame hawk will eat shrimp, damsels will be Devils, chronic will get uronema unless properly quarantined lemon peel will eat a lot of coral Pom Pom crab may attack fish/coral sand sifting goby will make a sandstorm in that size tank

Well, this all may be true, it is Saltwater so the general consensus is that anything can eat anything at anytime. Going to be doing more research.

[OrionN]

Well, this all may be true, it is Saltwater so the general consensus is that anything can eat anything at anytime. Going to be doing more research.
In general the fish we keep in our reef aquariums are not predators of other fishes or shrimps with some exception.

[juniorrocketdad]

Well, this all may be true, it is Saltwater so the general consensus is that anything can eat anything at anytime. Going to be doing more research.



This is foolish to think, the general consensus is almost always right and some people keep things like flame angels for a year and claim they are model citizens, the truth is all these people that go against consensus in the long run end up eating their words, don't make a foolish decision

[Brieninsac]

You may want to reconsider the Chromis, or at the very least anticipate a full 2-month quarantine. They are prone to Uronema Marinum, which is a nasty disease and virtually impossible to eradicate.

[OrionN]

Flame hawk will eat shrimp, damsels will be Devils, chronic will get uronema unless properly quarantined lemon peel will eat a lot of coral Pom Pom crab may attack fish/coral sand sifting goby will make a sandstorm in that size tank

There are differences between various species. Not all damsels are the same, not all angels are the same, not all angel will eat all corals ...... and ......

I guess that is where simplistic beginners and advances reefers are different.

[juniorrocketdad]

There are differences between various species. Not all damsels are the same, not all angels are the same, not all angel will eat all corals ...... and ......



I guess that is where simplistic beginners and advances reefers are different.



I never said all damsels are Devils but ik for a fact domino damsels are and lemon peels are the worst angels in terms of having hem eat corals

[malx]

This is foolish to think, the general consensus is almost always right and some people keep things like flame angels for a year and claim they are model citizens, the truth is all these people that go against consensus in the long run end up eating their words, don't make a foolish decision

That's what I said. I'm agreeing with you. I don't think I'm foolish at all. So just because a fish is OK today, does not mean it will be tomorrow.

[malx]

Anyone here have thoughts on Blue Damsels?

I'm thinking of this now:


Percula Clown 2
Watchman Goby 1
Royal Gramma 1
Flame Hawk 1 (will take the risk that he will eat the shrimp)
Yellow & Black Heraldi Angelfish 1
Linespot Flasher Wrasse 1 (Will have egg crate on the top)



Cleaner Snail 5
Cleaner Hermit Crab 5
Blood Shrimp 1
Pom Pom Crab 1



I want to add three schooling fish that are either blue or green, or even orange. Any suggestions here? Lyretail Anthias maybe?

[juniorrocketdad]

If quarantined properly blue chronic are probably your bet bet, your tank is kind of small for more Han one lyretail tbh

[malx]

If quarantined properly blue chronic are probably your bet bet, your tank is kind of small for more Han one lyretail tbh

Thanks! Are Blue and Green Chromis require the same kind of deal, maybe I can get two of each? They both require a rigorous quarantine procedure? What if I add them to the tank first? This way if they get sick, they won't kill anything else and I can simply start over. Or does what they get, get stuck in the rock at that point?

[malx]

Anyone have any luck with keeping pufferfish in small reef tanks? I know they could eat inverts. Thoughts on this?


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[juniorrocketdad]

Thanks! Are Blue and Green Chromis require the same kind of deal, maybe I can get two of each? They both require a rigorous quarantine procedure? What if I add them to the tank first? This way if they get sick, they won't kill anything else and I can simply start over. Or does what they get, get stuck in the rock at that point?



They are both very peaceful but tbh idk if you can mix the too, what they get is a disease called uronema that if it gets in the tank the only way to get rid of it is a tank tear down since it is not an obligate parasite and will be in the tank forever

[malx]

They are both very peaceful but tbh idk if you can mix the too, what they get is a disease called uronema that if it gets in the tank the only way to get rid of it is a tank tear down since it is not an obligate parasite and will be in the tank forever


Got it, quarantine tank sounds like a good idea even if they are the first fish in :)

[malx]

They are both very peaceful but tbh idk if you can mix the too, what they get is a disease called uronema that if it gets in the tank the only way to get rid of it is a tank tear down since it is not an obligate parasite and will be in the tank forever

What do you think of this as a little quarantine tank?
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/10-nuvo-fusion-aquarium-innovative-marine.html For 100 bucks, it seems to have everything I need in terms of filtration. I can use cycled water from my main system (I'm not connecting them don't worry) and a little of the sand and cycled live rock in it? Maybe put in a small piece of coral? I may consider up-keeping it in my office and just moving the fish home once I know it's good.

I understand that any fish you put in here that's sick, you run the risk of having to tear down the tank.

Also would be a good tank in case a fish in my main tank decides he wants to be aggressive.

Let me know your thoughts!

[malx]

Alright everyone, so here's what I decided to do after much research.

I've decided to get that little 10g tank off of BRS with a 50w heater and use that as my QT tank but keep it in my office (which I'm at 6 days a week). I understand that anything I put in this small tank has a risk of dying, so I'm going to keep probably some live rock (that I will cycle myself) as well as a Cleaner Shrimp and a Hermit Crab.

Here's the list of Livestock that I am looking to add to the main tank and in the order it will go. Let me know what you guys would change from this! Note, I'm going to get every fish as small as possible! I'll let them grow on their own in the tank.

After the tank is cycled (using the Red Sea kit to cycle)... Each fish will spend 30 days in the QT tank, then after, move to the main tank. Inverts will go directly into the main tank:

1x Percula Clown and 1x Blood Shrimp
30 days later.. 1x Watchman Goby, 5x Hermit Crabs
30 days after that... 1x Yellow & Black Heraldi Angelfish, 5x Cleaner Snails
30 days after that... 1x Royal Gramma and 1x Pom Pom Crab
30 days after that... 1x Flame Hawk
30 days after that... 1x Lyretail Anthias
30 days after that... 3x Blue Damselfish (semi-aggressive so adding last)

Once all of the fish are added and I am confident nutrients are low, I will start adding corals.

In the QT tank I will keep 1x Cleaner Hermit Crab and 1x Cleaner Shrimp.

What do you guys think?

Cheers,
Joey

[bat21]

Suggestions, in no particular order:

- the angel will be the boss of that tank most likely. I'd add it last, or before the damsels.
- only get the anthias if you can feed at least 3 times a day
- that's not much of a clean up crew. Also, scarlet hermits will not murder your snails. Other hermits might.
- keeping other animals in the QT prevents you from being able to quickly match the salinity of the bag water of a new fish. Some medications will kill inverts as well. I'd skip this idea as it limits the effectiveness of the QT.
- the damsels are a very risky proposition for a tank that size. I know they're beautiful. But you can pretty much forget ever adding a peaceful fish once those guys have their place in the tank. And I'm guessing you will rarely see your royal gramma for the same reason.

[jeff240gallon]

Ok. So scratch the Domino and Flame Hawk. I wanted the Goby to be able to clean up the sand. Have a recommendation of a fish that will sift the sand to keep the debris off of it?



Green and Blue Chromis ok? Maybe give me one more fish that you recommend? Instead of the 3x domino's what about another type of fish that's black and white that's not large and aggressive.



Let me know and thanks in advance!



I've had a flame hawk and two shrimp (coral bandit and blood) for around two years now. Not a single issue except when I first introduced my bandit. Hawk killed him, so I got another and haven't had an issue since.

[malx]

Suggestions, in no particular order:

- the angel will be the boss of that tank most likely. I'd add it last, or before the damsels.
- only get the anthias if you can feed at least 3 times a day
- that's not much of a clean up crew. Also, scarlet hermits will not murder your snails. Other hermits might.
- keeping other animals in the QT prevents you from being able to quickly match the salinity of the bag water of a new fish. Some medications will kill inverts as well. I'd skip this idea as it limits the effectiveness of the QT.
- the damsels are a very risky proposition for a tank that size. I know they're beautiful. But you can pretty much forget ever adding a peaceful fish once those guys have their place in the tank. And I'm guessing you will rarely see your royal gramma for the same reason.

Thanks for the tips. I don't mind ditching the inverts in the QT. Also don't mind ditching the Lyretail because I won't be able to feed 3x day. I could feed twice, and then I planned on clipping some seaweed to the wall of the tank for some grazing. Maybe this counts, let me know.

For the clean up crew? Would you add more over time? If so, what would you try to max out at?

Finally, what would you prefer other than the Damsels? I was entertaining Chromis but people say they eventually kill each other. I want three or five small schooling fish. Open to ideas here that will work with the other fish I have selected. I'm not partial to cardinals so, any other suggestion would be fine!

Let me know,
Joey

[malx]

Really would prefer 3-5 blue/green chromis http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+1634+115&pcatid=115 says they are peaceful so not sure why people say they kill each other.

[DopeCantWin]

Really would prefer 3-5 blue/green chromis http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=15+1634+115&pcatid=115 says they are peaceful so not sure why people say they kill each other.

They're peaceful with other fish, but eventually kill conspecifics. Just the experience of 99.9% of the people out there.

[bat21]

Your idea of schooling is not really attainable in a 60 gallon tank. Chromis are not actually schooling fish. They shoal. Which means they group together in the presence of a threat. They also get bigger than you think. I originally came into the hobby wanting a group of them also, but after tons and tons of research, and reading people's experience with them, I abandoned the idea. The fact that they are so commonly diseased was the icing on the cake.

You can get 15-20 snails easy, depending on what kinds you get. Turbos and trochus and massive eaters. Ceriths are much smaller, dwarf ceriths even tinier. But I have about a dozen turbos, I had about 10 trochus until my hermits killed all but 1 of them. A few dozen dwarf ceriths, a handful of nessarius in the sandbed. And about a dozen hermits.

Hermits in my experience are not terribly effective cleaners at all. And I regret getting any blue leg hermits because they have killed so many of my big helpful snails.

Don't worry about the damsel/chromis right now. Get the other fish you want. Get the angel last. This will take many months. Who knows how you will feel by that time and how the tank community will form. I changed my stock list 487 times in the 16 months I spent deciding on fish.

[malx]

Your idea of schooling is not really attainable in a 60 gallon tank. Chromis are not actually schooling fish. They shoal. Which means they group together in the presence of a threat. They also get bigger than you think. I originally came into the hobby wanting a group of them also, but after tons and tons of research, and reading people's experience with them, I abandoned the idea. The fact that they are so commonly diseased was the icing on the cake.

You can get 15-20 snails easy, depending on what kinds you get. Turbos and trochus and massive eaters. Ceriths are much smaller, dwarf ceriths even tinier. But I have about a dozen turbos, I had about 10 trochus until my hermits killed all but 1 of them. A few dozen dwarf ceriths, a handful of nessarius in the sandbed. And about a dozen hermits.

Hermits in my experience are not terribly effective cleaners at all. And I regret getting any blue leg hermits because they have killed so many of my big helpful snails.

Don't worry about the damsel/chromis right now. Get the other fish you want. Get the angel last. This will take many months. Who knows how you will feel by that time and how the tank community will form. I changed my stock list 487 times in the 16 months I spent deciding on fish.



All good tips. I'm not sold on the hermits either so maybe I'll just do the snails. I'll revise my fish list too so the Angel is put in last them after that decide what else. Maybe I'll find some Lyretails or Firefish will do well.

The reason I avoided such a large clean up crew was because, in my past experience, they slowly die off and create more trouble than it's worth. You're able to keep a large clean up crew alive? If so, got any tips for that?

[bat21]

All good tips. I'm not sold on the hermits either so maybe I'll just do the snails. I'll revise my fish list too so the Angel is put in last them after that decide what else. Maybe I'll find some Lyretails or Firefish will do well.

The reason I avoided such a large clean up crew was because, in my past experience, they slowly die off and create more trouble than it's worth. You're able to keep a large clean up crew alive? If so, got any tips for that?

Not really. I gradually got more and more. And I have never had trouble with them dying off, besides the hermit murders. If you plan to keep your tank spotless, and ultra low nutrient, completely algae free, then yeah maybe some snails might starve. Most people don't do that though and have no problem keeping lots of snails fed with the natural algae film that grows on most surfaces, the stuff you scrape off the glass every few days.

[malx]

Not really. I gradually got more and more. And I have never had trouble with them dying off, besides the hermit murders. If you plan to keep your tank spotless, and ultra low nutrient, completely algae free, then yeah maybe some snails might starve. Most people don't do that though and have no problem keeping lots of snails fed with the natural algae film that grows on most surfaces, the stuff you scrape off the glass every few days.

Thanks for the tip. One last question. Is it OK to add the inverts directly to the main display or should they go through the QT process first?

If I decided on Anthias, OK to do that after the Angel?

I scratched the Damsles.

[bat21]

Angels can be big a-holes. It's tough to know if yours will be one or not.

Most people just put cleanup crew right into the tank. I always have. But I also think that one time I added snails one brought in a parasite that killed one of my filefish. Everything you put into the tank is a risk unfortunately.

Now that I'm done adding fish, I let my QT, which is cycled, get pretty dirty. Lots of algae. So I plan on quarantining my next shipment of snails in there. And then after I add them to the DT, I'm removing my blue leg hermits and tossing them into the QT where they can't murder anyone.

[oseymour]

I think your on the right track with the fish.

I love the angelfish, I have a flame angel in my tank. I've had a coral beauty in a 50 gallon before. I know they could pick at corals at anytime and I accept that. I can always re-home him or bring him to my LFS for credit.

I would agree with the advice to add the cleanup crew slowly and as needed. In my last tank I bought one of those "cleaner packages" that include a bunch of snails and they mostly ended up dying not long after. This time I added snails slowly as needed. My clean-up crew also wasn't my primary means of algae control - I started biopellets when I started the tank - low nitrates = little to no nuisance algae = less need for a large cleanup crew. I also keep snails and hermits together but I leave some seaweed on a rock 2 days a week at night form them to consume. I think this lessens the need for the crabs to go after the snails. There is also empty shells of different sizes.

I haven't heard much about people QT'ing snails and hermits - just drip acclimate and go.

[malx]

Angels can be big a-holes. It's tough to know if yours will be one or not.

Most people just put cleanup crew right into the tank. I always have. But I also think that one time I added snails one brought in a parasite that killed one of my filefish. Everything you put into the tank is a risk unfortunately.

Now that I'm done adding fish, I let my QT, which is cycled, get pretty dirty. Lots of algae. So I plan on quarantining my next shipment of snails in there. And then after I add them to the DT, I'm removing my blue leg hermits and tossing them into the QT where they can't murder anyone.



Lolol!! "Murder anyone" love it. What do you look for with snails? Just observe?

[malx]

I think your on the right track with the fish.

I love the angelfish, I have a flame angel in my tank. I've had a coral beauty in a 50 gallon before. I know they could pick at corals at anytime and I accept that. I can always re-home him or bring him to my LFS for credit.

I would agree with the advice to add the cleanup crew slowly and as needed. In my last tank I bought one of those "cleaner packages" that include a bunch of snails and they mostly ended up dying not long after. This time I added snails slowly as needed. My clean-up crew also wasn't my primary means of algae control - I started biopellets when I started the tank - low nitrates = little to no nuisance algae = less need for a large cleanup crew. I also keep snails and hermits together but I leave some seaweed on a rock 2 days a week at night form them to consume. I think this lessens the need for the crabs to go after the snails. There is also empty shells of different sizes.

I haven't heard much about people QT'ing snails and hermits - just drip acclimate and go.



Do you put the shells in for them? Also, I imagine if you drip acclimate them, you don't put the water back in the tank? How long does that process usually take you? I have a drip acclimator.

[oseymour]

Do you put the shells in for them? Also, I imagine if you drip acclimate them, you don't put the water back in the tank? How long does that process usually take you? I have a drip acclimator.

For snails and crabs I do it for about an hour or hour and a half. I do slow drips. I discard the water when I'm done acclimating. Make sure you have freshly mixed saltwater ready to replace what you take out of the tank.

[malx]

For snails and crabs I do it for about an hour or hour and a half. I do slow drips. I discard the water when I'm done acclimating. Make sure you have freshly mixed saltwater ready to replace what you take out of the tank.

Thanks for the tip! I'll do that.