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View Full Version : could anyone identify this disease URGENT


dirk_brijs
04/27/2016, 11:39 PM
ok the situation is this.
The tank is a 1700 gallon system with loads of fish in it a a few corals. All parameters are good with NItrates just showing a bit high at 40 but should be no issue looking at whats in the tank I believe.
The tank has been doing very well for about a year now (for detailed fish list you can check out the build thread of this tank here in RC)
So all fish doing realy well and eat like crazy look fat and all.
Friday I have a batch of dwarf angels for another tank and see I have one in overtall for that tank so add 1 yellow angel to the large tank. on Saturday we add 1 leather finger coral and one leather mushroom to the tank and all is still good. Now MOnday morning with feeding we see fish are not feeding as normal and we see one of our powder blues stuck on the overflow ready to die so at further inspection we see many more fish struggle. Tuesday we remove 2 death butterflies, 2 death anthias Wednesday we see most tangs start to feed again though still reluctant and much more skiddish as they used to be hiding in the rock all the time only 1 death clowfish seen. No today Thursday we film the clip of a clownfish struggling and have 1 more anthias lying on the floor as death though when caught it was still alive though we removed it anyway as it is dying.
On non of the fish any sign of Ick or any other skin lesions I think. The clown in the clip as maybe not really view able the skin looks like dry and rimpled and seem to have melted skin on his back fin?? in the clip which is filmed on the side (so top of tank is actually left side of the view) the clown goes up to the surface to let himself sink back down over and over again. All other fish seem to be behaving the same as last few days feeding reluctant and still hiding all the time??
what could be wrong and what disease did I clearly introduce into this system though the Yellow Angel (can a disease from 1 dwarf angel small size even spread that fast??) or through the rocks of the coral though they came from my own system and have been doing in an ok tank for over 3 years now.
anyone can help so we know what to treat tank with if treatable? large size of the tank does not help the situation here for sure I think
LINK to clip is this
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/7qcOxxtUbRI" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Mr. Brooks
04/28/2016, 12:12 AM
With the speed of the infection I'd guess it's marine velvet. Pretty brutal. Sorry for your losses. I'm not sure of the best course of action. In my experience it killed everything before I had a chance to do anything about it. You're best off googling marine velvet. To answer your question, yes, one fish can bring it in and it can spread that fast. You gotta QT everything.

snorvich
04/28/2016, 03:52 AM
Marine velvet. What is your quarantine protocol?

krullshards
04/28/2016, 08:28 AM
Marine velvet. What is your quarantine protocol?

Hey Steve,

A question... Based on reading this (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388424) and this (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437), I would have diagnosed Brook. Mainly due to the description of the skin being dry and "rimpled" (which I took to mean wrinkled) and the skin "melting" near the back fin.

Also in the video, the dorsal fin in particular looks frayed further leading to the conclusion that this is brook (according to those links).

I'm curious as to why the consensus reached here was Velvet? I'm trying to get better at diagnosing this stuff.

Thanks!

Mr. Brooks
04/28/2016, 11:27 AM
I had thought Brook at first as well. But the rapid deaths of the other fish made me think it was velvet. I've never seen Brook wipe out a tank that fast before. But I'm no expert.

snorvich
04/28/2016, 01:04 PM
Hey Steve,

A question... Based on reading this (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388424) and this (http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2388437), I would have diagnosed Brook. Mainly due to the description of the skin being dry and "rimpled" (which I took to mean wrinkled) and the skin "melting" near the back fin.

Also in the video, the dorsal fin in particular looks frayed further leading to the conclusion that this is brook (according to those links).

I'm curious as to why the consensus reached here was Velvet? I'm trying to get better at diagnosing this stuff.

Thanks!

The video was insufficiently clear (my eyes are not wonderful) so I was diagnosing based on behavior and morality time line.

krullshards
04/28/2016, 04:29 PM
I had thought Brook at first as well. But the rapid deaths of the other fish made me think it was velvet. I've never seen Brook wipe out a tank that fast before. But I'm no expert.

My friends had a couple of clowns. Once symptoms of brook started showing on one it quickly died followed soon after by the other clown and a goby. It did seem quick to me.

snorvich
04/28/2016, 04:53 PM
My friends had a couple of clowns. Once symptoms of brook started showing on one it quickly died followed soon after by the other clown and a goby. It did seem quick to me.

I would need much more information than provided. As I said, I was guessing.

krullshards
04/28/2016, 05:52 PM
I would need much more information than provided. As I said, I was guessing.

I totally understand. It's exceedingly difficult to provide answers to folks based on the limited information that is presented.
I know most folks appreciate the effort, I know I always have and have learned a lot.

I too am curious about the OP's quarantine procedure. With a 1700 gallon system, insufficient quarantine could be disastrous.

dirk_brijs
04/28/2016, 06:22 PM
Hi guys previous the QT protocol was followed with all other fish though as mentioned for the 1 Yellow dwarf angel (Centropyge heraldi)
isnt brooks disease considered a clownfish disease? non of the clowns ever showed symptoms previous and no new clowns were added.
What more info would you guys need to help out?
I initially also thought of Velvet but non of the struggling fish show any sign of the velvet layer on their skin or any kind of white spots at all.
the general fish behavior is very shy and constant hiding fishes seem to become very inactive just sitting on top of a rock before they die. WE can almost sure pinpoint the next fish dying as they get this kind of behavior.
this a picture we took of one of the butterfly we tried to remove as he was showing mentioned behavior and died soon after. Not sure of those red spots could be an indicator as we have not seen any kind of spots on any of the other death fish though sure harder to spot as they were more colored and smaller.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/oxbow70/butterfly_zpsc7wnvjed.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/oxbow70/media/butterfly_zpsc7wnvjed.jpg.html)

ThRoewer
04/28/2016, 06:34 PM
With clownfish my first guess would be brook or something like it, but the description and timeline sounds more like velvet.
With brook you would usually also see the whitish skin plaque and fin clamping.
Shy and hiding also speaks for velvet.

krullshards
04/28/2016, 09:09 PM
I have very little knowledge of uronema but does anyone think those skin lesions could indicate uronema?

ThRoewer
04/28/2016, 09:39 PM
I have very little knowledge of uronema but does anyone think those skin lesions could indicate uronema?

Yes, but uronema as a opportunistic parasite is usually not that virulent, otherwise there wouldn't be any fish alive on the reefs.

snorvich
04/29/2016, 06:24 AM
Hi guys previous the QT protocol was followed with all other fish though as mentioned for the 1 Yellow dwarf angel (Centropyge heraldi)

only takes one to destroy a tank


the general fish behavior is very shy and constant hiding fishes seem to become very inactive just sitting on top of a rock before they die.

reclusiveness suggests velvet

dirk_brijs
04/29/2016, 06:35 AM
maybe these picture can help these are taken from a butterfly who is clearly suffering hanging against the glass as if he is saying please take pictures and get this diagnosed right....?
When trying to catch he though he is still moving extremely fast just to come back and hang against the glass.
wonder what all the red spots are all over his skin now are those secondary infections maybe?
The skin again has this dry flaky look to it.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/oxbow70/20160429_172950_zpsnhh7srss.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/oxbow70/media/20160429_172950_zpsnhh7srss.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/oxbow70/20160429_172959_zps029wwjbb.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/oxbow70/media/20160429_172959_zps029wwjbb.jpg.html)
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/oxbow70/20160429_173014_zpsefkwww9z.jpg (http://s49.photobucket.com/user/oxbow70/media/20160429_173014_zpsefkwww9z.jpg.html)

trembz
04/29/2016, 07:05 AM
Tagging along, I've had fish look exactly like that and never found the cause

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dirk_brijs
04/29/2016, 07:13 AM
after some loads of reading I think I am leaning the Brooklynella or Uronema path?
any concurs?

dirk_brijs
04/29/2016, 10:08 AM
after sending my pictures and my story to WWM they came back with Cnidarian allelopathy can someone tell me more about this and what to do??? Cant find any info on it at all besides its a chemical warfare between corals.... They advise polyfilter, carbon (which I have in the system) and if needed remove all fish. For how long or till when ???
Keot asking for more details and confirmation but not much more info came about it all just say DO..... thank you and I did and now what?????
anyone more info on this?

snorvich
04/29/2016, 10:15 AM
What corals are in your tank?

trembz
04/29/2016, 10:41 AM
I've had symptoms EXACTLY like this but I keep a FOWLR, no corals...is this diagnosis for certain?

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dirk_brijs
04/29/2016, 10:45 AM
I have elegances, 1 devils hand leather (added at around the start of the outbreak so could be it) 1 cabbage leather (also just added though far from anything) and 1 I am not sure what it is but also leather kind. with which the devils hand was placed ... I have removed this coral from the system since than as it didnt look all to great to begin with.
and some neon greens though again they are far from anything else.
I am advised to install polyfilter and chemipur to get rid of the toxins which non is available in Thailand???

dirk_brijs
04/29/2016, 10:48 AM
I've had symptoms EXACTLY like this but I keep a FOWLR, no corals...is this diagnosis for certain?

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the guy from WWM Bob Fenner was very sure in it saying I needed to stop asking and start listening to their advise which again I would love to but have non available?? Might need anyones help here

snorvich
04/29/2016, 10:56 AM
Cnidarian allelopathy? Never heard of it affecting fish but I do not keep soft corals.

trembz
04/29/2016, 11:53 AM
Seems a little off to be honest

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trembz
04/29/2016, 11:57 AM
I should also add that my symptoms like this began a week after I added a clown tang.
The clown tang died a week after being introduced, and almost immediately after, fish started showing these exact symptoms and started dropping like flies .. tangs first, then angels, then dog face puffer... only a Tobi puffer survived

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snorvich
04/29/2016, 01:35 PM
I should also add that my symptoms like this began a week after I added a clown tang.
The clown tang died a week after being introduced, and almost immediately after, fish started showing these exact symptoms and started dropping like flies .. tangs first, then angels, then dog face puffer... only a Tobi puffer survived

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Almost certainly velvet.

trembz
04/29/2016, 01:46 PM
Almost certainly velvet.
Even torn ragged fins and the red wounds?

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snorvich
04/29/2016, 02:26 PM
Even torn ragged fins and the red wounds?



Diagnosis of Problems

Tiny white dots on body or fins (looks like salt)
Research:
a) Marine Ich (parasite)


Gold, brown or rust colored patches on body
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)


Tiny black dots on body or fins
Research:
a) Black Ich (parasite)


Raised white bumps on body or fins which looks lumpy
Research:
a) Lymphocystis (viral)
b) Fungal Infection in marine fish


Excessive mucus on body or gills
Research:
a) Brooklynella (parasite)
b) Marine Flukes (parasite)
c) Uronema (parasite)


Ragged, torn, or missing fins
Research:
a) Fin Rot and Tail Rot (bacterial)
b) Marine Ich (parasite)
c) Ammonia Poisoning in marine fish
d) Uronema (parasite)
e) Brooklynella (parasite)
f) Marine Flukes (parasite)

Cloudy eye(s)
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)
b) Fin Rot and Tail Rot (bacterial)
c) Marine Ich (parasite)
d) Marine Flukes (parasite)
e) Bacterial Infection in marine fish
f) Brooklynella (parasite)


Holes or pits on face, head, or lateral line
Research:
a) Head and Lateral Line Errosion "HLLE"


Fuzzy white or brown patches on body or fins
Research:
a) Fungal Infection in marine fish
b) Columnaris (bacterial)


Open sores or lesions on body
Research:
a) Marine Flukes (parasite)
b) Brooklynella (parasite)
c) Bacterial Infection in marine fish
d) Uronema


Raised or missing scales
Research:
a) Dropsy (bacterial)
b) Bacterial Infection in marine fish
c) Uronema


Stringy thread-like attachments on anus
Research:
a) Thread worms (parasite)


Stringy thread-like attachments on body
Research:
a) Anchor worms (parasite)


Fish is scratching on rocks or substrate
Research:
a) Marine Ich (parasite)
b) Marine Velvet (parasite)
c) Marine Flukes (parasite)
d) Anchor worms (parasite)


Fish is rapidly breathing or gasping
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)
b) Brooklynella (parasite)
c) Marine Flukes (parasite)
d) Bacterial Infection in marine fish
e) Ammonia Poisoning in marine fish
f) Marine Ich (parasite)
g) Uronema (parasite)


Fish is lethargic and/or hiding
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)
b) Head and Lateral Line Errosion "HLLE"
c) Dropsy (bacterial)
d) Bacterial Infection in marine fish


Fish is swimming erratically
Research:
a) Marine Ich (parasite)
b) Marine flukes (parasite)

Fish is twitching
Research:
a) Marine flukes (parasite)

White stringy "poop"
Rsearch:
a) internal parasites (parasite)

trembz
05/02/2016, 07:55 PM
Any news?

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dirk_brijs
05/29/2016, 09:37 PM
I finally got the water required to make large water changes (with 2000 liter needed at a time no easy feat)
as soon as the first 2000lt water change was performed the fish seemed much more at ease.
We did the same water changes for 3 consecutive days and it seems with the fish who survived the ordeal as nothing has happened. Now few weeks later they all have the wits back swim around and eat like crazy as never anything happened.
So it must have been some sort of poisoning of some sort. Took out all the leathers I had in there to be sure but still cant imagine that a small stone like that can do such damage but who am I to be sure about ti right???
Anyway all what survived back to 100% just wish I could have gotten my hands on water soo much faster and safe so many more fish
Task of restocking has started now

microlady
06/01/2016, 10:02 AM
I'm betting this is velvet. A similar thing happened to me last year after I added a new fish which I didn't quarantine long enough. Five fish survived and I removed them, treated them, and left the tank fallow for 8 weeks. Some fish build up immunity but the parasite could still be lurking in your tank and strike again when you add a new fish. A fallow period is a must.

I keep lots of soft corals and have never had problems with the water. From what I know, the allelopathy is between the corals, and not so much the fish. Water changes are always good to refresh a system. Invest in a good quarantine system and be sure to quarantine anything wet for at least 8-10 weeks. Fish can be quarantined 6 weeks. Formalin baths, Prazipro, and TTM are required in my opinion. Good luck!

microlady
06/01/2016, 10:03 AM
The water changes might have knocked down the parasite population, but it's probably still there.