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Coachb9
05/24/2016, 02:17 PM
So my LFS suggested copper instead of TTM because I am not doing a reef tank. I am going to begin treating tonite but need some insight on the snails and hermits. Do u need to get them both out of the tank?

nuttyd
05/24/2016, 02:21 PM
Dont use copper in the display tank. You will impact being able to keep corals later. If you really want to use copper, do it in a quarantine tank or even a five gallon bucket and wait the fallow period for whatever you are treating for.

Coachb9
05/24/2016, 02:27 PM
I don't think I am ever going to do coral. If I do, it won't be in this 55 gallon tank. I honestly do not ever see myself doing coral. I see myself more as a fish only kind of guy

nuttyd
05/24/2016, 03:27 PM
Well, do you really want to limit yourself now. I thought the same thing at the beginning and now my 55 is filled with corals. If you are set on the treatment, all inverts will be killed by the copper. I think you can remove after with carbon but not sure if the residual is enough to be lethal to inverts.

Coachb9
05/24/2016, 03:36 PM
I am confident saying I won't do corals.
Can I put hermits and snails back in at some point?

ThRoewer
05/24/2016, 03:38 PM
So my LFS suggested copper instead of TTM because I am not doing a reef tank. I am going to begin treating tonite but need some insight on the snails and hermits. Do u need to get them both out of the tank?

Sure he does, that way he can sell you the copper, the test and the new fish you will need.

The only time I might consider using copper would be to treat velvet infections of pipefish, seahorses and other fish that can't handle Choloroquine. Otherwise I would avoid it like the plague.
I would NEVER EVER use copper in a DT system!!!

If fighting ich and don't want/can't do TTM I would prefer hyposalinity over copper every day. It works about as reliable as copper but without the negative side effects for the fish. Also it is easier to measure and has no lasting impact on the tank in case you ever change your mind about inverts or corals.

nuttyd
05/24/2016, 03:42 PM
not sure how long the copper will leach from the rocks. I would try other methods first. Maybe take all the inverts out and try the hyposalinity method before using copper.

Deinonych
05/24/2016, 03:59 PM
Sure he does, that way he can sell you the copper, the test and the new fish you will need.

The only time I might consider using copper would be to treat velvet infections of pipefish, seahorses and other fish that can't handle Choloroquine. Otherwise I would avoid it like the plague.
I would NEVER EVER use copper in a DT system!!!

If fighting ich and don't want/can't do TTM I would prefer hyposalinity over copper every day. It works about as reliable as copper but without the negative side effects for the fish. Also it is easier to measure and has no lasting impact on the tank in case you ever change your mind about inverts or corals.

+1

Copper's disadvantages far outweigh its advantages. It's an outdated medication that should be discontinued, IMO.

Coachb9
05/24/2016, 04:12 PM
Well the reason I can't do TTM is because I am going on vacation for a week in a week. I couldn't transfer the fish during this period thus wiping out a weeks work.
I wanted to try to do something to help fish before I leave

ThRoewer
05/24/2016, 04:59 PM
Well the reason I can't do TTM is because I am going on vacation for a week in a week. I couldn't transfer the fish during this period thus wiping out a weeks work.
I wanted to try to do something to help fish before I leave

Going on vacation while the fish are in treatment is a lousy idea.

Copper would need to be measured twice daily and redosed if necessary.

With Hyposalinity the salinity also should be checked at least once each day and RO water refilled if needed (though this could be automated with an aqua controller or ATO system)

Depending on how advanced the infection is I would rather do nothing as any change may cause complications you can't correct while absent.

If anything I would just lower the salinity to 1.020 and see who is left after a week. Hermits and snails should be able to handle that if the salinity is lowered slowly.

m0nkie
05/24/2016, 05:25 PM
go on your vacation and treat after. as long as you return the tang, the rest of the fish should be fine. They won't be as stressed, less chance of ich blow out.. Just feed better and do more WC. Keep them healthy and fat.

Copper is not set and leave either. Your tank needs daily top off fresh water, therefore you need to constantly adjust your copper level.

m0nkie
05/24/2016, 05:26 PM
I went on vacation while treating my tank for bryopsis and came home to a crash :( very sad.. thousands $$$ wasted

Turbosreef
05/24/2016, 05:33 PM
At what level is hyposalinaty lethal to coral and also ich? Is 1.020 light enough

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Coachb9
05/24/2016, 05:46 PM
Ok, so here is my thoughts based in the 4 threads I have been throwing back and forth.

1. Scrap the copper idea. Take it back to LFS even and get refund
2. Lower salinity to 1.20 (or close to it) I don't have a refractometer so I am going to have to do my best to get close.
3. When i return from vacation, begin the TTM process.
4. Clean DT and begin the cycle process all over

My only concern (yea right) is what do I do after 2 week TTM process is up and before the 4 week when my DT is still cycling?

snorvich
05/24/2016, 06:06 PM
at what level is hyposalinaty lethal to coral and also ich? Is 1.020 light enough

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1.008/9

Coachb9
05/24/2016, 06:22 PM
Steve, hope I can call you Steve, I have a question for you.
I am going to do the TTM when u return from vacation. My question to you is, is it possible to cycle a tank in the same 2 week timeframe that I am doing the TTM. Are there any steps I can take to speed it up? I can going to throughly clean the DT and replace the live sand. My live rock isn't really live. If I didn't have to throughly clean the rock, I am assuming my cycle process may work faster. I can put a high quality conditioner in my water and the bacteria additive.
Is there a way to have the DT ready coinciding with the TTM completion?
Thanks again. I promise I am trying to digest everything

m0nkie
05/24/2016, 06:44 PM
you can buy live rocks to avoid long cycling.

if you have local friends that have cycled Sera Siporax or Marine Pure Ceramic Blocks in their sump, those will help alot

Turbosreef
05/24/2016, 07:07 PM
1.008/9
That's what I read, I think someone here posted 1.020 which makes no difference

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Coachb9
05/24/2016, 07:25 PM
If I can get true live rock, that has been functioning in a saltwater system for months, how much shorter can the cycle take? Can I cycle the tank in 2 weeks?

m0nkie
05/24/2016, 07:43 PM
prob no cycle.. if worried, some biospira will make sure it has no cycle

ThRoewer
05/24/2016, 07:49 PM
At what level is hyposalinaty lethal to coral and also ich? Is 1.020 light enough

Any salinity low enough to kill ich will also kill corals and most other reef inverts (some of the hardier crabs - usually the unwanted hitchhikers - may tolerate it down to 1.009)

you can buy live rocks to avoid long cycling.

if you have local friends that have cycled Sera Siporax or Marine Pure Ceramic Blocks in their sump, those will help alot

But with those you can also reimport the parasite if the friends or dealer's system is infected.

That's what I read, I think someone here posted 1.020 which makes no difference

1.020 will not kill the ich but make it easier for fish to cope with it. Also 1.020 can be handled by quite a few inverts (crustacean, snails) if lowered slow enough.

Coachb9
05/24/2016, 07:49 PM
Where can I get biospira?

Turbosreef
05/24/2016, 07:50 PM
Does ich keep coming back stronger and stronger?

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ThRoewer
05/24/2016, 08:29 PM
Does ich keep coming back stronger and stronger?

Not necessarily. It depends on what caused the outbreak, the condition of the fish and the overall health of the system.

Ich can be in a system and never show if the water quality is good and the fish are fit, well fed and not constantly stressed out.

I have had several low level outbreaks that died down after a couple of weeks.
I also had cases where I had to intervene and treat those fish that got worse and worse with each wave. I usually don't treat the fish that show no symptoms at all.

I quarantine and would never put a fish with visible symptoms in a DT, but the parasite is in my system and new additions can cause enough unrest to let it flare up for a while.
It is somewhat of an indicator of a system's health and if your fish get along and are satisfied enough with their surroundings to not be stressed all the time. If it shows up without a new addition you know something is going on.

Though in general it is best to keep it out of your system, especially if you want to keep sensitive species that you probably shouldn't keep in your tank to begin with (because it is usually too small for them).

Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:12 PM
I qt'd a pbt and after qt and adding him to tank saw the spots after 1 day caught it before it was outside the skin

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Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:13 PM
But test wise my phosphates are zero. No ammoina nothing is out of whack test wise calicum and all are good my pH is 8. But has always been stable there.

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Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:15 PM
I did add a biopellet reactor that was the only change made

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m0nkie
05/25/2016, 07:24 PM
I qt'd a pbt and after qt and adding him to tank saw the spots after 1 day caught it before it was outside the skin

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if it's ich, then chances are you will have ich in your system... sorry

But test wise my phosphates are zero. No ammoina nothing is out of whack test wise calicum and all are good my pH is 8. But has always been stable there.

I did add a biopellet reactor that was the only change made

has nothing to do with ich or QT. something went wrong in the QT process or fallow process. Or did you add new corals or something that could have brought in ich during fallow

Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:27 PM
Yeah I know... fighting that battle now, it's very mild at this point few spots here and there.... water is perfect I also run a 40 watt UV at 100gph which is slow enough to kill it in the floating stage, çurrently trying the kick ich and water changes and qt the fish that seem more effected by the ich I have many fish that have no signs I don't have enough space to qt all of the fish

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Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:29 PM
I would add that when planning a new system the qt system should be set up parallel so that fish can be added freely, I am running the qt tank hyposalinaty which seems to be working with 100% water changes daily.

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Turbosreef
05/25/2016, 07:30 PM
And the new water is an exact match in temp and salinity

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