Apolemichthys Kingi's!!!

[MadReefer19]

Hi guys,

So Monday turned out to be one of the best days I have ever had. I got a call from a local store telling me they have what I've been wanting for a very long time!!!

As you can imagine, I was overflowing with excitement. To cut a long story short. I came home Monday evening with 2 Apolemichthys Kingi's and also a Pomacanthus Rhomboides.

I have them in quarantine now but have managed to steal some pics!!!

[bradleyj]

What a catch! Congrats, very jealous.

[WayneL333]

What the??! Very nice. How large are the Kingii's?

[brett559]

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/22450941.jpg

[BigBlueTang]

Where in the heavens?!

How big are the Kingii's?! And I've never heard of the old woman angelfish before, only seen it in ID books, care to share a little light on those?

Two Kingii's... Wow.

[Robby2782]

Wow...

[SDguy]

Wow, I think SDC posted on their FB page a little while back about the kingii, but their pic looked like a larger specimen. Did you get that one?

[brett559]

Seems funny that this would be his FIRST post!

[BigBlueTang]

Seems funny that this would be his FIRST post!

Yeah.. Seems a little too good to be true.
two, TWO kingii's?! Ted hasn't even gotten one!

Verdict is still out. OP, if you take more pictures, I will eat my words. Literally.

[d-man]

Hmmmm?

[BlueMac92]

Received an email on the 4th that a wholesaler overseas had 8. Doubt they would have gotten ALL that were collected.

Wouldn't call BS just yet guys....


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[bobkill]

PIA Facebook says they have some available as well

[bobkill]

And amazing pick up

[illumnae]

A kingi and an "old woman" came in to Singapore a few weeks back, so there's definitely some available during this period.

Are kingis considered to prefer cooler waters, or would they do fine in usual reef tank temperatures?

[photoblepharon]

Kingi is found shallow but is restricted to Mozambique and South Africa. It is about as far south as reefs get on the African continent. Water temps should definitely be kept on the cool side.

Old woman is a cool angel and is the only angel that forms large shoals/schools, like in the hundreds. They also feed in midwater on plankton. Unlike any other Pomacanthus. As a group they act more like Niger Triggers than typical angelfish.

[MadReefer19]

Thanks guys. Kingi's are 10 - 11cm. I was told that a juvenile may be available soon.

Price was not as crazy as I thought. Pm me and I'll share with you.

I just wanted to share it with you guys. I have nothing to gain by bluffing. Didn't really have an awesome tank prior. Now I've got what I have wanted for a long time! Pics will come when they out of quarantine.

I have my temperature at 21c. A bit cooler than normal but I only have them and 2 other fish.

[ThRoewer]

Your use of cm and °C makes me think that you are not in the US.
Where are you located, Americas, Asia or Europe?
I know that De Jong got a few A. kingi, either from SA or Madagascar.

[Dmorty217]

Hmmmm?

The one SDC had was 18K wholesale

[ThRoewer]

The one SDC had was 18K wholesale
For me that would be waaaaay too much for a not really pretty dwarf angel that could just turn around and die.

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[CoralsAddiction]

For me that would be waaaaay too much for a not really pretty dwarf angel that could just turn around and die.

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True but there are some collectors out there who have higher degree of appreciation for the most rarest of fishes available in the hobby. Some people collect rare cars, paintings, etc. To them it's just another outlet. I stopped judging them (not that you judged someone in your post. just saying).

[CoralsAddiction]

I have nothing to gain by bluffing. Didn't really have an awesome tank prior. Now I've got what I have wanted for a long time! Pics will come when they out of quarantine.
.

Congrats on the purchase. It was a little strange to see someone's first post be about Kingii but I guess you wanted to start with a bang. Haha. Any chance of a video of fishes in QT? These don't come around often among hobbyists and the community will certainly appreciate any glimpse of it.

[jbvdhp]

Congrats on the purchase. It was a little strange to see someone's first post be about Kingii but I guess you wanted to start with a bang. Haha. Any chance of a video of fishes in QT? These don't come around often among hobbyists and the community will certainly appreciate any glimpse of it.



I'm sure since they're in his or her QT then a video or photo should be available shortly. I'd be proud to own such a coveted, rare angel so I would have shown it in a heartbeat!

Congrats OP I can't imagine what you spent on it. :)


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[BigBlueTang]

Thanks guys. Kingi's are 10 - 11cm. I was told that a juvenile may be available soon.

Price was not as crazy as I thought. Pm me and I'll share with you.

I just wanted to share it with you guys. I have nothing to gain by bluffing. Didn't really have an awesome tank prior. Now I've got what I have wanted for a long time! Pics will come when they out of quarantine.

I have my temperature at 21c. A bit cooler than normal but I only have them and 2 other fish.

My apologies. I saw it was your first post, and thought you were trolling..

[MadReefer19]

Yeah I'm not originally from the US. Moved here a while ago. I tried using inches and Fahrenheit but I keep forgetting and going back to what I know

Your use of cm and °C makes me think that you are not in the US.
Where are you located, Americas, Asia or Europe?
I know that De Jong got a few A. kingi, either from SA or Madagascar.

[MadReefer19]

The one SDC had was 18K wholesale

Not nearly as much as that. Do you recall the size on that one?

[MadReefer19]

Congrats on the purchase. It was a little strange to see someone's first post be about Kingii but I guess you wanted to start with a bang. Haha. Any chance of a video of fishes in QT? These don't come around often among hobbyists and the community will certainly appreciate any glimpse of it.

I didn't really have much to be proud of before but things quickly changed. Yes ofcourse. I'll get them posted up soon! I hear there will be more to come...

[MadReefer19]

I'm sure since they're in his or her QT then a video or photo should be available shortly. I'd be proud to own such a coveted, rare angel so I would have shown it in a heartbeat!

Congrats OP I can't imagine what you spent on it. :)


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My career doesn't always allow me to spend a significant amount of time in front of my tank, even though I feek it should. :)

I'll post a video up in the next day or so. Just being overly cautious now. Don't want to have something go wrong when I have full control.

[caribfan]

PIA Facebook says they have some available as well

What is PIA? Thought pacific island aquatics shut down a while back?

[caribfan]

Congratulations on the fish and welcome to the forum. Glad to have another rare fish enthusiast.

Looking forward to more pics and videos.

[MadReefer19]

My career doesn't always allow me to spend a significant amount of time in front of my tank, even though I feek it should. :)

I'll post a video up in the next day or so. Just being overly cautious now. Don't want to have something go wrong when I have full control.

My apologies. I saw it was your first post, and thought you were trolling..

No worries. I do understand that it happens. :) Just recently got something to post about.

[MadReefer19]

What is PIA? Thought pacific island aquatics shut down a while back?

Reopened. Actually spoke to Colby now. His one is not too badly priced.

[MadReefer19]

Congratulations on the fish and welcome to the forum. Glad to have another rare fish enthusiast.

Looking forward to more pics and videos.

I wouldn't place too much emphasis on rare fish enthusiast. Think the Kingis will be my first and last thousand dollar fish. Even though I would love some extremely rare angels!

[Dmorty217]

Not nearly as much as that. Do you recall the size on that one?

It was larger, closer to 4" or so. This was back in February when they first started showing up. That was what Eric was "asking" but no one was ever going to pay that. This one was available back in January and could fetch a high price

[Dmorty217]

By the way congrats on such a snag! Can you share the website for PIA to us? I look and nothing comes up

[caribfan]

By the way congrats on such a snag! Can you share the website for PIA to us? I look and nothing comes up

Agreed.

[nanoreefer1000]

By the way congrats on such a snag! Can you share the website for PIA to us? I look and nothing comes up they posted it on facebook

[Vili_Shark]

wow, very cool fish , good luck with them.

[Dmorty217]

they posted it on facebook

But they don't have a website and as far as I know they guy who use to own PIA moved to the east coast and never reopened hence why I'm confused.

[ThRoewer]

Yeah I'm not originally from the US. Moved here a while ago. I tried using inches and Fahrenheit but I keep forgetting and going back to what I know

Well, that's kind of my situation too (originally from Germany) and I really can't find any advantage in the convoluted mess of units from the antiquity (quite literally) they so cling to here in the US. I kind of refuse to adapt to a system the rest of the world has deemed to be obsolete and dumped well over a hundred years ago. Especially Fahrenheit is a unit of little to no practical value, neither in science nor daily life.

BTW, any idea where these fish were caught? I kind of always want to know that for my fish.

[OrionN]

I lived in the US 4 times longer than my early life in Vietnam and still use the metric system in my head. Given a number in metric system and I can visualized in my head how big, how long, how heavy .... Given inches, foot and oz (especially oz volume or oz in weight) and I have no idea.

[alprazo]

Before purchasing these fish from South Africa, I think we need to be responsible and consider how they made it to market. More important who is profiting from their collection. Two weeks ago Leopard cats sharks became available. This species is endemic to South Africa with a very small, protected range. I made some calls to find out how could it be that these were available and wanted to know if they were captive bred. The rumors were extremly concerning. I am not sure if these other rare arrivals share the same route out of SA . Like purchasing illicit drugs or arms, you may wish consider Who you are supporting.

[Dmorty217]

Before purchasing these fish from South Africa, I think we need to be responsible and consider how they made it to market. More important who is profiting from their collection. Two weeks ago Leopard cats sharks became available. This species is endemic to South Africa with a very small, protected range. I made some calls to find out how could it be that these were available and wanted to know if they were captive bred. The rumors were extremly concerning. I am not sure if these other rare arrivals share the same route out of SA . Like purchasing illicit drugs or arms, you may wish consider Who you are supporting.

I couldn't agree with you more. Being that two were purchased and the fact he said he didn't pay near the asking price of the last ones that were available I would venture to say they were collected illegally

[sde1500]

Well, that's kind of my situation too (originally from Germany) and I really can't find any advantage in the convoluted mess of units from the antiquity (quite literally) they so cling to here in the US. I kind of refuse to adapt to a system the rest of the world has deemed to be obsolete and dumped well over a hundred years ago. Especially Fahrenheit is a unit of little to no practical value, neither in science nor daily life.

BTW, any idea where these fish were caught? I kind of always want to know that for my fish.

You Back the heck away from my imperial measurements :blown:

On topic, congrats on the fish!

Can't say they are ones that I would ever spring for. IDK, but it seems rare angels don't seem to do it for me haha.

[Henkie]

It is illegal to export fish from South Africa at the moment as no commercial permits have yet to be granted.

There is therefore no way these fish make it to these countries legally

This I a really sad sight to see for a South African as myself.

(if they do come from South Africa)

[ThRoewer]

They are also found in Mozambique and Madagascar. Given the fact that there should have opened a collection site in Madagascar last year or latest this year I would think they came from there.

It seems to be rather a deep water fish than a rare fish in its distribution range.

[alprazo]

Sharks are much easier. The pyjama and leopard catsharks just became available for the first time. Both are restricted to SA. Old reports of strays in Madagascar are unconfirmed.
When a half dozen of each species shows up on stock lists, collection of the random stray is no longer probable. Is it coincidence that rare fish from the same locale are showing up at the same time? I truly don't know. Just putting it out there.

[ThRoewer]

How do you know the ones in Madagascar were strays? The waters around that island are poorly explored and for sure not beyond scuba range. All the reports I could find about these state that they are deep water fish like the Bandit angelfish from Hawaii

[alprazo]

I don't know for sure, but the sharks are endemic to 60F water. The reports, which are old and sometimes described as erroneous, come from 80 degree waters.

[humaguy]

yeah, I am not getting involved with these sa kingiis, too many headaches...lol, but, things change and these fish are found in other locations, that are legal, and the collecting process will be killer, the future is looking very good...

[photoblepharon]

There are a bunch of Pseduanthias connelli that have been trickling into the hobby too. These are certainly from ZA and definitely sold illegally. Doesn't surprise me at all that Eric Cohen at SDC would deal with such shady fish, he didn't mind getting his hands dirty with smuggled Clarions.

They are also found in Mozambique and Madagascar. Given the fact that there should have opened a collection site in Madagascar last year or latest this year I would think they came from there.

It seems to be rather a deep water fish than a rare fish in its distribution range.

Not really a very deep water angel. You can find them in 30' of water on Aliwal Shoal and Praia do Tofo. They are relatively uncommon in their range.

[CoralsAddiction]

I think that Eric Cohen from SDC was bought out by his brother(s) and is no longer involved in SDC ops.

[Taahirs]

Yeah, if it is from SA it is illegally poached. Sad to see people still supporting illegal collection.

[RynoParsons]

Very rare fish indeed. i know of one in a home aquarium in South Africa. guys here are really serious about the illigal export of this fish.

[Dmorty217]

I think that Eric Cohen from SDC was bought out by his brother(s) and is no longer involved in SDC ops.

This must of recently happened

[humaguy]

Eric is with Blue Life USA, had been there for a while now...is a solid and wonderful guy...

[Dmorty217]

It was larger, closer to 4" or so. This was back in February when they first started showing up. That was what Eric was "asking" but no one was ever going to pay that. This one was available back in January and could fetch a high price

I miss spoke on this. It was offered up by Scott, not Eric and for not quite as much as I said. Eric did leave SDC last year and sold his stake to his brother. They didn't actually even have the fish, it was in Japan but I would imagine that it was legally collected. There are reports of Kingii coming out of Madagascar (via local divers there)

[humaguy]

kingiis are not rare in the wild, just ultra protected by sa laws...they typically go to hk and are sold thru there...legal ones are coming, with juivs seen at 10 m....lol, good things coming!

[Dmorty217]

kingiis are not rare in the wild, just ultra protected by sa laws...they typically go to hk and are sold thru there...legal ones are coming, with juivs seen at 10 m....lol, good things coming!

You know more than most when it comes to this I have no doubt!

[humaguy]

they are def in mad...

https://************.com/2015/10/28/tiger-angelfish-discovered-in-madagascar/

[humaguy]

The fish life of Madagascar is very poorly known when it comes to the aquarium hobby. Certain illustrious species like the Madagascar flasher wrasse beckon to us from behind the third world curtain, but a new discovery in this part of the Indian Ocean could incentivize marine fish collectors to get us more Malagasy reef fish.

We received a video clip of a tiger angelfish from Golden Coast Fisheries purporting to be from the ‘Indian Ocean side’ of Madagascar. What this Apolemichthys kingi is doing far from its known range of Southern Mozambique to South Africa is anyone’s guess. We trimmed the video to highlight the exciting angelfish discovery but other parts also show gem tangs in abundance, plenty of yellow slingjaw wrasses, and what appears to be a Malagasy variant of Pseudanthias bimaculatus.

Geographically speaking, it is altogether plausible that the natural range of the tiger angelfish is much larger than anyone ever knew. Madagascar is notoriously poorly studied, especially underwater due to the lack of a comprehensive diving industry in this country.


from Jake A

[Vili_Shark]

This must of recently happened

quite a while actually.

[Vili_Shark]

There are a bunch of Pseduanthias connelli that have been trickling into the hobby too. These are certainly from ZA and definitely sold illegally. Doesn't surprise me at all that Eric Cohen at SDC would deal with such shady fish, he didn't mind getting his hands dirty with smuggled Clarions.



Not really a very deep water angel. You can find them in 30' of water on Aliwal Shoal and Praia do Tofo. They are relatively uncommon in their range.

Eric is no longer with SDC for long time now.
You sure owe an apology to at least one of them.

There are new collecting areas being explored all the time (as there are areas closing down), I'd not jump into conclusions and blame people unless I can really prove it.

[photoblepharon]

Ahh, Vili Shark. Still sticking up for the right to own smuggled fish, I see. Keep it up, I guess.

[Dmorty217]

I miss spoke on this. It was offered up by Scott, not Eric and for not quite as much as I said. Eric did leave SDC last year and sold his stake to his brother. They didn't actually even have the fish, it was in Japan but I would imagine that it was legally collected. There are reports of Kingii coming out of Madagascar (via local divers there)

quite a while actually.

[Vili_Shark]

Ahh, Vili Shark. Still sticking up for the right to own smuggled fish, I see. Keep it up, I guess.

Just prove something instead of blaming everybody.

[Vili_Shark]

Sorry didn't see it.

Yeah Scott and Brad are running the show now :)

[photoblepharon]

Just prove something instead of blaming everybody.

Clearly there are fish coming out of ZA illegally; if you want proof you can email the ZA authorities yourself and see that it is illegal to sell aquarium fish from there.

Pseudanthias connelli has only ever been documented from ZA. If they are coming from other areas, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that.

Now we are supposed to believe that whoever is smuggling P. connelli out of ZA is only catching those, and ignoring the much more valuable A. kingi? Don't make me laugh!

[Vili_Shark]

Clearly there are fish coming out of ZA illegally; if you want proof you can email the ZA authorities yourself and see that it is illegal to sell aquarium fish from there.

Pseudanthias connelli has only ever been documented from ZA. If they are coming from other areas, the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that.

Now we are supposed to believe that whoever is smuggling P. connelli out of ZA is only catching those, and ignoring the much more valuable A. kingi? Don't make me laugh!

You make me laugh.

1.If you were in touch with the South African authorities , why don't you post here their case?

2.You misunderstand sir, I ain't got no burden of proof , it is you who basically blame a pretty large American importer for smuggling fish.
When you do that, sir, you better give a proof.
That's how it works ;)

3.I'm not trying to make you laugh, honestly I don't.
I just been around for very long time and I do know that fish pop out where they "do not suppose to".
Genicanthus caudovittatus, was always considered to be found only in Red Sea and west Indian Ocean, now it is collected in pretty large numbers in Indonesia.
Now Indonesia has a lot of exporters and fisherman, so we all know that, the word spread easily.
How many exporters are there in Madagascar and Mosambique? not so many I guess, but we do know that there are people collecting there.
It was just an example.

I'm not saying the P.conneli were not smuggled , I have no idea.
All I'm saying if you blame somebody, let us see the smoking gun.

[photoblepharon]

I didn't say he smuggled fish, I said it wouldn't surprise me that he would deal with such shady fish. Ask Eric about the Clarions he sold from the drug/fish smuggler Craig Lightner. I'm sure he will plead ignorance.

I hear about plenty of illegal fish and corals on the market all the time: Rhizotrochus, illegal Clarions from Craig Lightner that Eric Cohen sold, the Clippertons from Steve, all French Polynesian fish from everyone, South African fish, Caribbean corals and fish that were obtained illegally, etc. (see Joe Russo, Tropicorium, etc). I know from reading your posts that you are willing to excuse this behavior. Like I said, keep it up. In the long run when the hobby is regulated out of existence you can thank yourself.

[ThRoewer]

BTW: De Jong Marinelife has one A. kingi in stock (http://www.dejongmarinelife.nl/fish/pomacanthidae/apolemichthys-kingi/3) as well.

They also had Pseudanthias connelli a few years ago.

As for South Africa - is the collection of these fish prohibited or just the export?

[alprazo]

For sharks, it is the export.

[ThRoewer]

What is their justification for allowing collection but not export? This seems a bit like hypocrisy to me.

[photoblepharon]

What is their justification for allowing collection but not export? This seems a bit like hypocrisy to me.


Export would open up their resources to a much larger market than their domestic aquarium community. Its a simple way to limit the impact. More importantly, South Africa can do whatever the hell they want with their wildlife. You aren't entitled to it.

[Henkie]

We in South Africa buy recreational collection permits which allows us to only collect fish via snorkeling.

These fish must be kept in your own personal aquarium and you are prohibited to sell, donate or exchange the fish caught under such a licence.

Like mentioned above it is to protect our marine life from the commercial market.

All exports of marine life from SA is illegal

[RynoParsons]

further more the Kingi angels isnt a fish you see when you go diving here. but anyway doesnt help to rant about this as there isnt any proof of to where these fish are collected and exported from now

[sde1500]

Export would open up their resources to a much larger market than their domestic aquarium community. Its a simple way to limit the impact. More importantly, South Africa can do whatever the hell they want with their wildlife. You aren't entitled to it.



Any reasons you feel the need to be aggressively combative with many in this thread? Too bad for OP he posts here to show some fish and it devolves into this.

[Dmorty217]

Any reasons you feel the need to be aggressively combative with many in this thread? Too bad for OP he posts here to show some fish and it devolves into this.

The real issue is how the OP decided to announce he got two Kingii. He claims the came from a LFS. First red flag (most are Presold and or someone has a spot for them and then they are sold, then said diver collects them) point being is they don't make it to a LFS with the hope that someone is going to walk in a drop 15-20k on them. Then he claims he doesn't own any other rare fish but purchased two that easily fetch 8-10k!?? Oh and it was his first post ever with the start of this thread, but he has been in the hobby for "years" Seems odd is all.

[Vili_Shark]

The real issue is how the OP decided to announce he got two Kingii. He claims the came from a LFS. First red flag (most are Presold and or someone has a spot for them and then they are sold, then said diver collects them) point being is they don't make it to a LFS with the hope that someone is going to walk in a drop 15-20k on them. Then he claims he doesn't own any other rare fish but purchased two that easily fetch 8-10k!?? Oh and it was his first post ever with the start of this thread, but he has been in the hobby for "years" Seems odd is all.

so, does it make the fish illegal? I'm serious...

[Taahirs]

so, does it make the fish illegal? I'm serious...



Makes it highly unlikely that it's legal...

[Vili_Shark]

I didn't say he smuggled fish, I said it wouldn't surprise me that he would deal with such shady fish. Ask Eric about the Clarions he sold from the drug/fish smuggler Craig Lightner. I'm sure he will plead ignorance.

I hear about plenty of illegal fish and corals on the market all the time: Rhizotrochus, illegal Clarions from Craig Lightner that Eric Cohen sold, the Clippertons from Steve, all French Polynesian fish from everyone, South African fish, Caribbean corals and fish that were obtained illegally, etc. (see Joe Russo, Tropicorium, etc). I know from reading your posts that you are willing to excuse this behavior. Like I said, keep it up. In the long run when the hobby is regulated out of existence you can thank yourself.

You keep talking about the Clarions, remind everybody who're not in the know, how many years passed?
And who got charged.

You are basing your posts on assumptions.
Instead of assumptions, give us some facts, some proves.
Fish X is smuggled from area Z and here is why__________.
Otherwise, anybody with brains won't take you seriously my friend.

Good luck reading my posts, means u have a lot of spare time :)

[Vili_Shark]

Makes it highly unlikely that it's legal...

May I know why?
What am I missing?

Let's say the guy lied about where he got the fish and forgive me in advance,I'm not saying he lied.
What it got to do with the source of the fish?

You guys became investigators, prosecution and judges, all in one?

I do not get this?
For saying it is smuggled fish, give us a proof that these fish are smuggled.
Otherwise, why talk? turning green?

[Robby2782]

The real issue is how the OP decided to announce he got two Kingii. He claims the came from a LFS. First red flag (most are Presold and or someone has a spot for them and then they are sold, then said diver collects them) point being is they don't make it to a LFS with the hope that someone is going to walk in a drop 15-20k on them. Then he claims he doesn't own any other rare fish but purchased two that easily fetch 8-10k!?? Oh and it was his first post ever with the start of this thread, but he has been in the hobby for "years" Seems odd is all.


The person he got these from has several adult sized ones, and he's asking $8,000 per fish. He either purchased the fish,or he started this thread to hype the availability of the uber rare fish. Either way, they're too big for what I'd be willing to gamble on.

[BigBlueTang]

No ones trying to get mad at the OP, I doubt he was going out of his way to get illegal fish, but let's all just get back to the main point of this thread, to talk about the kingii's!


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[Dmorty217]

so, does it make the fish illegal? I'm serious...

No not 100% but couple that with where the fish is typically found and collected, wasn't offered thru a wholesaler, and not documented via social media or turned down by others who actually have collections of rare fish (have connections to the people that collect the rare, ultra rare with equally high price tag) its a higher probability they were not legally collected. lastly is price, price does make it pretty easy to determine if they are legally caught or not.

[Dmorty217]

The person he got these from has several adult sized ones, and he's asking $8,000 per fish. He either purchased the fish,or he started this thread to hype the availability of the uber rare fish. Either way, they're too big for what I'd be willing to gamble on.

The price still seems low for adults and too low when you think about what the person who has them paid for them from the collector

[Robby2782]

The price still seems low for adults and too low when you think about what the person who has them paid for them from the collector

Yes, but this price was offered to me as well.

[jbvdhp]

So... After all this time... Still no pics, OP? Come on...


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[Vili_Shark]

No not 100% but couple that with where the fish is typically found and collected, wasn't offered thru a wholesaler, and not documented via social media or turned down by others who actually have collections of rare fish (have connections to the people that collect the rare, ultra rare with equally high price tag) its a higher probability they were not legally collected. lastly is price, price does make it pretty easy to determine if they are legally caught or not.

In my book, when you blame somebody for something, or even hint about it, you better have some facts to back up your words.

You guys are blaming but make assumptions.

Your assumptions re the divers/collectors can hold if the fish were actually collected by Americans collectors .
Here, obviously it is not the case.

Given the fact that IF these fish were collected legally, they'd PROBABLY be from Madagascar / Mosambique , where the Hobbyists, rare fish collectors that you have mentioned have no contacts/connections , still does not mean to say these fish are illegal.

From a personal point of view , I see more and more Kingii being offered in the past couple of years, it'll be pretty sad to understand that all these fish are coming from South Africa , as it is not one or two occasions, but pretty steady trickle , which , again personally, making me think and want to believe that these are just coming from a new area and are legal.

About the price , large fish for 8K?
I'd not buy it for 500.00.
It's in most cases a fish with a few month mileage on it, browse online and see for yourself.

[Vili_Shark]

The price still seems low for adults and too low when you think about what the person who has them paid for them from the collector

Would you personally pay this price for a large adult Kingii?

I see your avatar and I'll ask one more, would you buy a large adult Bandit?

[photoblepharon]

How is there any debate about whether some kingis are coming out of ZA illegally? We know for a fact that people are shipping ZA endemic anthias out of ZA. P. connelli has never been recorded outside of ZA. Yet it's offered for sale in Europe and Asia. So clearly somebody is collecting fish in ZA and shipping them out. Are we really so naive to believe that if they caught a much more valuable kingi Angel they wouldn't sell it as well?

[photoblepharon]

Any reasons you feel the need to be aggressively combative with many in this thread? Too bad for OP he posts here to show some fish and it devolves into this.

Devolves into this? Sorry, what's the correct behavior? We all say "awesome fish" and nobody talks about serious issues like all the illegal fish in the aquarium trade?

Take a look at any of the threads here or blogs about any fish collected from French Polynesia. Nobody says a thing about the fact that French law prohibits all of these fish from being collected. That is not okay. That's a huge, ugly mark on our hobby that we need to be critical about. If we don't you can bet somebody else outside the hobby will.

[RynoParsons]

we in south africa have sort of the same problem. its illegal to import freshwater shrimp into south africa. but even the petshops sell them also freshwater lobsters. with a sub tropical country they also pose a big threat to our natural eco systems. even plecos. but people dont care they still support the illegal trade of these inverts....

[photoblepharon]

You keep talking about the Clarions, remind everybody who're not in the know, how many years passed?
And who got charged.

You are basing your posts on assumptions.
Instead of assumptions, give us some facts, some proves.
Fish X is smuggled from area Z and here is why__________.
Otherwise, anybody with brains won't take you seriously my friend.

Good luck reading my posts, means u have a lot of spare time :)

Okay, Fish X (Clarion Angelfish) was smuggled from area Z (Mexico) along with other smuggled goods C and I (cocaina and migrants) by person Q (Craig Lightner) and then fish X were purchased by wholesaler S (Eric Cohen) who either knew they were gotten from Mexico illegally or turned a blind eye to it and pretended to not have any awareness of the legal situation at the time. That specific enough for you?

[Vili_Shark]

How is there any debate about whether some kingis are coming out of ZA illegally? We know for a fact that people are shipping ZA endemic anthias out of ZA. P. connelli has never been recorded outside of ZA. Yet it's offered for sale in Europe and Asia. So clearly somebody is collecting fish in ZA and shipping them out. Are we really so naive to believe that if they caught a much more valuable kingi Angel they wouldn't sell it as well?

It's pretty simple my friend,
Madagascar, a huge island is pretty close.
there's collection there.
Can you name some of the fish that they are collecting?

[Vili_Shark]

Devolves into this? Sorry, what's the correct behavior? We all say "awesome fish" and nobody talks about serious issues like all the illegal fish in the aquarium trade?

Take a look at any of the threads here or blogs about any fish collected from French Polynesia. Nobody says a thing about the fact that French law prohibits all of these fish from being collected. That is not okay. That's a huge, ugly mark on our hobby that we need to be critical about. If we don't you can bet somebody else outside the hobby will.

Can you please elaborate on the French law and French Polynesia fish?

[Vili_Shark]

Okay, Fish X (Clarion Angelfish) was smuggled from area Z (Mexico) along with other smuggled goods C and I (cocaina and migrants) by person Q (Craig Lightner) and then fish X were purchased by wholesaler S (Eric Cohen) who either knew they were gotten from Mexico illegally or turned a blind eye to it and pretended to not have any awareness of the legal situation at the time. That specific enough for you?

You're good you :)
LOL.
You see that was not that difficult.

Since this we all know, and the people involved payed their debt to the society , would you please do the same with your assumptions on the Kingii?
If you can that is.

Otherwise, take a rest , "don't surprise me at all" and "shady fish" , you can get to court these days for such posts ;) I thought that's how it works in America.

[MadReefer19]

Wow. So much reading and such sad things being posted. Now I see why guys generally don't post on these forums.

To clear the collection up, I asked initially where they were from and was told it came from one of these central wholesalers who keep fish from all locations around the world. All I was told is that they were legally imported into the USA. Not sure if that means that they from SA, Mozambique or Madagascar.

You guys can question all you like. I know what's in my tank... So clearly it doesn't matter what any of you think. Whether it's my first post or 1000 post it is irrelevant. Didn't know there was a minimum post requirement to show my newly acquired fish...

How do I have this thread removed?

[photoblepharon]

Can you please elaborate on the French law and French Polynesia fish?


Simple. French law prohibits the collection of aquarium fish using underwater breathing apparatus in French Polynesia.

[Vili_Shark]

Simple. French law prohibits the collection of aquarium fish using underwater breathing apparatus in French Polynesia.

Cool, that's what I thought, I just wanted to be sure.

So I know for a fact that at least one of the collectors in Tahiti is catching his fish at night using snorkel and plastic bags.

Here's another guy you owe an apology for , too bad he doesn't post here.

[Dmorty217]

Would you personally pay this price for a large adult Kingii?

I see your avatar and I'll ask one more, would you buy a large adult Bandit?


Not for that price because that's a red flag like I previously mentioned. I don't support the illegal side of this buisness. Yes I would and have bought a adult bandit from Rufus that was collected 100% legally. It's not about the size that was collected or offered, it's about them being legally obtained, and when you look at the price of these... Well there is no way they are legal. They would of already been sold in the Asian or European markets if they were. That's the point here

[alprazo]

Btw. I just check
The leopard and pyjama shark stock list again. What do you know, they also have 3 kingii.

[alprazo]

And pseudoanthias connelli. 5 to be exact.

[d-man]

What is the price though on those kingiis?

[alprazo]

Old women angels too. Sorry, can't publicly post price

[photoblepharon]

Cool, that's what I thought, I just wanted to be sure.

So I know for a fact that at least one of the collectors in Tahiti is catching his fish at night using snorkel and plastic bags.

Here's another guy you owe an apology for , too bad he doesn't post here.

You sure are big on demanding apologies.

I pretty clearly stated I was talking about rare fish that you see talked about in the forums and on blogs and I don't mean the fish caught at 20'.

[photoblepharon]

It's pretty simple my friend,
Madagascar, a huge island is pretty close.
there's collection there.
Can you name some of the fish that they are collecting?

Pretty close? It's over 1000 miles away. No P. connelli have ever been sighted outside of ZA.

It's like Steve Robinson claiming he caught a bunch of Clipperton Angels in Mexico. Oh right, you believed that lie too.

[Vili_Shark]

I didn't say he smuggled fish, I said it wouldn't surprise me that he would deal with such shady fish. Ask Eric about the Clarions he sold from the drug/fish smuggler Craig Lightner. I'm sure he will plead ignorance.

I hear about plenty of illegal fish and corals on the market all the time: Rhizotrochus, illegal Clarions from Craig Lightner that Eric Cohen sold, the Clippertons from Steve, all French Polynesian fish from everyone, South African fish, Caribbean corals and fish that were obtained illegally, etc. (see Joe Russo, Tropicorium, etc). I know from reading your posts that you are willing to excuse this behavior. Like I said, keep it up. In the long run when the hobby is regulated out of existence you can thank yourself.

You wrote here "French Polynesian fish from everyone" ;)

[Vili_Shark]

Pretty close? It's over 1000 miles away. No P. connelli have ever been sighted outside of ZA.

It's like Steve Robinson claiming he caught a bunch of Clipperton Angels in Mexico. Oh right, you believed that lie too.

I wrote you before, you have NO IDEA what they have in Madagascar do you?

So why you make so much noise?

Years a go I was in touch with a fisherman there (not for the hobby that is), he sent me pics of:
P.maculosus
P.chrysurus
Z.gemmatum
and many more.
Would you guess that?

You have no idea on what is going on, you just point fingers.

I tell you once again, you have a proof- talk , otherwise take a rest, talking about what Steve did and Craig Lightner did over a decade ago won't make these Kingiis illegal.
Might boost your ego that you've been around for all these years, but nothing more than that.

[OrionN]

Well, I am glad that I don't keep expensive fish. Expensive enough to worry about them smuggle from out of the country like the fishes mentioned here.
My most expensive animal is my 26+ inch T. gigas. ~ 15 years from his spawned date in a clam farm.
Finding out about Dick Perrin at Tropicorium smuggle fish and animal from Florida to sell a few years ago really sadden me.

I agree with Vili Shark, spew venomous accusations of some one broken the law without proof is inappropriate. If it turn out that the one fling these accusations is doing it for personal gain, then it is even worst. I am glad that our law require the burden of proof from the prosecutors. I am glad that I don't have to proof my innocent if I ever get accuse of breaking the law.

I myself would not buy things that I though was obtained illegally.

You need not worry about regulation. IMO, catching and selling a few high price fishes will not result in regulation. It is hysteria of people from loud mis-information that will result in regulation. Other causes would be justifiable negative impact of removing the animals, justifiable anger due to gross inappropriate behavior of collectors, middle men or aquarists.

I guess I have more faith in the law. We just need to fight mis-information and self regulate regarding appropriate behavior of our-self and the behavior of who and where we get our animals from.

[Dmorty217]

Pretty close? It's over 1000 miles away. No P. connelli have ever been sighted outside of ZA.

It's like Steve Robinson claiming he caught a bunch of Clipperton Angels in Mexico. Oh right, you believed that lie too.

Those were "blue passers"

[photoblepharon]

I wrote you before, you have NO IDEA what they have in Madagascar do you?

So why you make so much noise?

Years a go I was in touch with a fisherman there (not for the hobby that is), he sent me pics of:
P.maculosus
P.chrysurus
Z.gemmatum
and many more.
Would you guess that?

You have no idea on what is going on, you just point fingers.

I tell you once again, you have a proof- talk , otherwise take a rest, talking about what Steve did and Craig Lightner did over a decade ago won't make these Kingiis illegal.
Might boost your ego that you've been around for all these years, but nothing more than that.

Did he mention P. connelli in that list? I didn't think so. That might be more relevant to the discussion of illegal fish coming out of ZA.

Speaking of ego boosts, I am super impressed that you know 3 fish that are found in Madagascar <golf clap>

[photoblepharon]

You wrote here "French Polynesian fish from everyone" ;)

Ok, I misspoke. All the bread and butter fish from 20' deep are legal if they're caught on snorkel.

It's very clear there are other much deeper fish coming out of French Polynesia.

[photoblepharon]

Well, I am glad that I don't keep expensive fish. Expensive enough to worry about them smuggle from out of the country like the fishes mentioned here.
My most expensive animal is my 26+ inch T. gigas. ~ 15 years from his spawned date in a clam farm.
Finding out about Dick Perrin at Tropicorium smuggle fish and animal from Florida to sell a few years ago really sadden me.

I agree with Vili Shark, spew venomous accusations of some one broken the law without proof is inappropriate. If it turn out that the one fling these accusations is doing it for personal gain, then it is even worst. I am glad that our law require the burden of proof from the prosecutors. I am glad that I don't have to proof my innocent if I ever get accuse of breaking the law.

I myself would not buy things that I though was obtained illegally.

You need not worry about regulation. IMO, catching and selling a few high price fishes will not result in regulation. It is hysteria of people from loud mis-information that will result in regulation. Other causes would be justifiable negative impact of removing the animals, justifiable anger due to gross inappropriate behavior of collectors, middle men or aquarists.

I guess I have more faith in the law. We just need to fight mis-information and self regulate regarding appropriate behavior of our-self and the behavior of who and where we get our animals from.

I haven't accused any specific person of breaking the law without a public record that they did so. What I have said is that there are a whole lot of illegally obtained animals in the trade that people who know better should be avoiding, if they had any integrity.

I've had more than one conversation with rare fish collectors where they explicitly state they simply don't care if a fish was obtained legally or not. How does that make our hobby look?

Take it straight from Vili:


Anyway, I did my homework, I dont really care how the Clarion will come my way legal or not, since it is not an endangered species, and the ban of fishing Clarions is just a crazy goverement's worker idea,since they are in the 4 islands by the thousands if not more, so I dont really care.
The ban is not for Clarions, the ban is for fishing , still there are sports fishing boats all over the Revillagigedos( far enough from the navy).

Anyway, I should get myself a couple when these guys will be avileable next time,I wont do this effort for getting those kingis though.

When people who regulate for a living see attitudes like this I doubt they will have much sympathy for our hobby.

[photoblepharon]

Those were "blue passers"

And I'm Shaquille O'Neal!

[photoblepharon]

You need not worry about regulation. IMO, catching and selling a few high price fishes will not result in regulation. It is hysteria of people from loud mis-information that will result in regulation.

Okay, I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

The federal authorities step in and charge people when they "catch and sell a few high price fishes". Please don't try to downplay the significance of federal wildlife laws. Dick Perrin, Ammon Covino, Joe Russo, Steve Robinson, Craig Lightner, etc. These are the stories that reach a wider public audience. This is the type of behavior that will direct attention to our hobby and cause regulation.

The federal authorities and the public at large don't care about "loud" conversations on RC that you perceive as misinformation. There are lots of illegally obtained corals and fish in the trade. Anybody who is involved enough knows it, including Vili.

[OrionN]

They certainly paid for it (may or may not be enough) IMO. That does not change the regulation. Certainly if their behavior is grossly bad like a few years ago when some on documented the death of hundreds of yellow tangs at a middle man's tank. Things like that will cause problem for the hobby.
People broke the law will pay fine or prison for it. I shed no tear for them.

[OrionN]

........

The federal authorities and the public at large don't care about "loud" conversations on RC that you perceive as misinformation. There are lots of illegally obtained corals and fish in the trade. Anybody who is involved enough knows it, including Vili.
Loud misinformation like people use half bake pseudoscience or screwed data trying promote certain view and disregard information and data that would contradict their view of "truth". Beside ourselves, no one care about what we discuss here

[Vili_Shark]

Did he mention P. connelli in that list? I didn't think so. That might be more relevant to the discussion of illegal fish coming out of ZA.

Speaking of ego boosts, I am super impressed that you know 3 fish that are found in Madagascar <golf clap>

You are accusing of smuggled fish without having a proof, get a life.

So lame, got nothing to say to you anymore.

Go and read my posts.

[Vili_Shark]

Okay, I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense.

The federal authorities step in and charge people when they "catch and sell a few high price fishes". Please don't try to downplay the significance of federal wildlife laws. Dick Perrin, Ammon Covino, Joe Russo, Steve Robinson, Craig Lightner, etc. These are the stories that reach a wider public audience. This is the type of behavior that will direct attention to our hobby and cause regulation.

The federal authorities and the public at large don't care about "loud" conversations on RC that you perceive as misinformation. There are lots of illegally obtained corals and fish in the trade. Anybody who is involved enough knows it, including Vili.

Do you have a proof on the Kingii in this thread or not?

Do you?

Were these Kingii according to your information caught and shipped illegally?
Yes ?
No?

If the above answer is Yes , go a head and give everybody a proof.

If the answer is No.

I can't really write what I think about people like you.

[photoblepharon]

You're asking me to provide proof that a particular fish mentioned in this thread by an anonymous internet poster, whose location is unknown, was exported illegally? Sorry, I can't do that. I likewise can't prove that an individual Philippine blue tang at the local Petco was caught with cyanide, but that doesn't mean it never happens.

If you read carefully I never said the OPs fish was illegally collected. I said many of the kingis in the trade are illegally exported out of ZA. Is this really up for debate? You and I both know it's true, so why argue with it?

[photoblepharon]

You are accusing of smuggled fish without having a proof, get a life.

So lame, got nothing to say to you anymore.

Go and read my posts.

....

I can't really write what I think about people like you.

You seem to love defending the smugglers and really hate it when people point out the smuggling. I watched you defend Steve Robinson and trash federal agents. All so you can get some rare fish.

Shaking my head man. Enjoy your hate.

[Vili_Shark]

You're asking me to provide proof that a particular fish mentioned in this thread by an anonymous internet poster, whose location is unknown, was exported illegally? Sorry, I can't do that. I likewise can't prove that an individual Philippine blue tang at the local Petco was caught with cyanide, but that doesn't mean it never happens.

If you read carefully I never said the OPs fish was illegally collected. I said many of the kingis in the trade are illegally exported out of ZA. Is this really up for debate? You and I both know it's true, so why argue with it?

You are the one who posted in the thread , right?
Somebody force you to?

You could open a History thread, and write there that Steve smuggled Clippertons , Craig Lightner smuggled Clarions and T Rex (it was about the same time) , what it got to to with THIS Kingii?

Can you confirm this Kingii was smuggled?
If yes, give us a proof , I'd be very interested to know that, seriously I will.

If not, I really find it annoying to read your posts, no offence , I just like things to be accurate, we all know about Steve and Craig, but this got nothing to do with these Kingii unless you have a proof.

There are fish smuggled, true!
We both know that.

There is a bank getting robbed somewhere in the world today, so should I got to the bank now and arrest the person next to me, accuse him he looks "shady" and there's a bank getting robbed today.

[Vili_Shark]

You seem to love defending the smugglers and really hate it when people point out the smuggling. I watched you defend Steve Robinson and trash federal agents. All so you can get some rare fish.

Shaking my head man. Enjoy your hate.

Not true.

I'd be sad to know that these fish were smuggled from SA.
I like to see SA as an advanced country, smuggling a fish shipment is not smuggling a diamond, it is boxes of fish and got to involve the authorities and the airlines, their authorities have to look to the other way , which at this point I find hard to believe due to :
1.Again fish shipment require volume
2.Given the FACT that quite a lot of fish were offered for sale in the past 2 years , but I DO NOT KNOW for a fact.

Logically , I'd think these fish came from a new location, but again, I DO NOT KNOW.

There's no hate.
I just don't like people blame, then say they don't really blame, but just based on assumptions, if you have a proof show it, if not, take a rest as simple as that.

[photoblepharon]

Theres no proof this particular fish is illegal and nobody ever said it was. The discussion was about kingi in general and if you think many aren't entering the trade via ZA then you are either naive or a fool.

Right here in this thread many people criticize the USFWS and ZA authorities as hypocrites and just chasing paperwork yet give the benefit of the doubt to fish smugglers. All I have left to say is that you reap what you sow.

I believe I've made my point well enough and wish you a fine day sir.

[Vili_Shark]

Theres no proof this particular fish is illegal and nobody ever said it was. The discussion was about kingi in general and if you think many aren't entering the trade via ZA then you are either naive or a fool.

Right here in this thread many people criticize the USFWS and ZA authorities as hypocrites and just chasing paperwork yet give the benefit of the doubt to fish smugglers. All I have left to say is that you reap what you sow.

I believe I've made my point well enough and wish you a fine day sir.

Do you have a proof on Kingii in general?

I've been offered or saw for sale at least 2 dozens of Kingii in the last couple of years, USA / HKG / JPN and EU, and let me tell you , I'm not interested in rare fish anymore, so somebody who's more into it, I just assume will know of more fish.

Are you saying they are smuggled?

Can't they come from Madagascar? or Mosambique?

And one more point which I dont understand in your post, IF they are smuggled , why NOT criticize the SA authorities???? how on earth can you take out a fish shipment on an international airport without co operation from the authorities?

[Misled]

You guys need to lighten up. Thread closed.