Is this ich???

[bat21]

Neon Goby. All of a sudden today looks covered in ich. Or it's a bunch of scraped scales. But it looks bad. The last wet item added to the tank was a shipment of turbo and trochus snails from live aquaria on June 10th.

Everyone including him is eating and behaving normally. There is not a single spot on any of the other 8 fish. Just this one. I have had him for over a year, and I know their lifespans are only 1-2 years. But this came out of nowhere. Please tell me it could be something else. What should I do???? I'm freaking out.

353704

353705

353706

353707

[LobsterOfJustice]

That is ich


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bat21]

So the snails brought ich into my tank, and nothing showed up for 3 weeks, and its only on one fish. So what do I have to do now? Transfer all of the fish into another tank and do hyposalinity? And leave them in the new tank for 72 days? Tank transfer for 9 fish seems like a daunting task. Is hypo just as effective?

Is there any reason to just remove this one fish? Or that's pointless since its in the tank.

What would you guys do here?

[madweazl]

Could have been in the tank far longer and everything was just healthy enough to no succumb to it. If you are doing hypo-salinity, there would be no reason to transfer the fish. TTM probably isnt a realistic method for you.

If you can catch the fish, you can treat it and monitor the others to see how they react.

[bat21]

Could have been in the tank far longer and everything was just healthy enough to no succumb to it. If you are doing hypo-salinity, there would be no reason to transfer the fish. TTM probably isnt a realistic method for you.

If you can catch the fish, you can treat it and monitor the others to see how they react.

Catching the fish is going to be really tough. So you're saying to just do hypo on the main tank? Would that kill the ich or just cure the current incarnation of the lifecycle that is on the actual fish?

Does it being a fowlr give me an advantage to be able to run hypo for a much longer period without worrying about killing any corals? Or do I still have to run it fallow to get rid of the ich.

Need some expert opinions here on what my best route of attack is. I have no corals, just fish, shrimp, crabs, and snails.

[ThRoewer]

Neon gobies are notorious ich magnets. I'm not sure why, but it could be that they like cooler water than what they find in reef tanks.

Ich can take weeks if not months to show. It can also slowly fade away if the fish are otherwise healthy, fit and not overly stressed.

Hyposalinity in a DT is risky and you may need to keep it going for up to 3 months. The biggest risk is a mass die-off of algae and micro life.
For that reason I would only treat in a hospital tank.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Jeff4777]

Oh man I got 2 neon gobies and 1 sharknose. Keep us posted, good luck.

[bat21]

Neon gobies are notorious ich magnets. I'm not sure why, but it could be that they like cooler water than what they find in reef tanks.

Ich can take weeks if not months to show. It can also slowly fade away if the fish are otherwise healthy, fit and not overly stressed.

Hyposalinity in a DT is risky and you may need to keep it going for up to 3 months. The biggest risk is a mass die-off of algae and micro life.
For that reason I would only treat in a hospital tank.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I started with dry rock only. So my tank has very little micro life compared to tanks with true live rock. I also live in an apartment and setting up a hospital tank for 9 fish might simply not be in the cards for me. But I do think,even though I know and understand the risks, that my particular DT is well suited to handle a hypo treatment.

That said, and the timing of this stinks, I'm going away on Wednesday for a week. So at least right now I have no actual choice but to do nothing.

Should I lower the salinity a little bit over the next 36 hours? Not hypo levels, but would it help the fish fight it if I got it down to 1.018-1.020? I hate to make a change like that without being there to observe, but I also don't want any of my fish to die.

[ThRoewer]

If it's a fish only tank, lowering the salinity is not a problem. In fact, if you don't plan on adding any inverts, I would just keep it in that range permanently.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

If it's a fish only tank, lowering the salinity is not a problem. In fact, if you don't plan on adding any inverts, I would just keep it in that range permanently.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

When you say inverts, does that include shrimp/crabs/snails? Or are you referring to corals etc. only.

[ThRoewer]

Anything that's not a fish.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

Anything that's not a fish.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So going down to 1.019 range would endanger all of my shrimp, crabs and snails. I'm left with no choice but to just go on my vacation and hope for the best over the next week. I can withstand a loss of my neon goby, because I know he has a short lifespan to begin with and I've had him over a year at this point. But if I get a call from my fish sitter about any of my other fish being sick or dead it is really going to ruin my trip. GRRRRR, why did this have to rear its head right now?!?!?

When I get back I'll have to make a decision on hypo. Either I move all of my inverts to a temporary tank and hypo the display, or vice versa. Either scenario would have to be for the full fallow period to allow the ich to die off in the non-hypo tank. I assume you would advise treating the fish with hypo in a hospital tank, but besides the hurculean task of catching 9 different fish, I would need to set up a new 20-30 gallon tank (for 9 fish to live for 3 months), whereas I could get away with probably a 10 gallon to house the inverts for that time period, not to mention they would be much easier to catch and move than the fish.

Or I just live with ich in my display. My fish are all fat and healthy (or were until this goby suddenly succumbed to ich seemingly out of nowhere). I also have no idea how the ich got in or when it got in. So that part is really frustrating. If I could somehow know that most of the fish have withstood the parasite for a long time, I'd feel better about things. But if it came in with the snails 3 weeks ago, then I'd be much more worried about more fish getting sick. Everything was going so well!!! :facepalm::facepalm:

Do you think it would be bad for my marriage if I canceled a vacation, threw thousands of nonrefundable dollars down the drain, so that I could stay home and deal with the fish tank I already spend too much time dealing with?

[ThRoewer]

Many crabs, shrimp and snails may handle 1.018 if you lower the salinity slowly over weeks. The thing they can't handle are rapid salinity changes.

[bat21]

Ok. When I get back I'll do it slowly, unless other fish get sick, in which case I'll take a more aggressive approach with a hospital tank and hypo.

Is there any chance at all that it might not be ich? Or is that 100% conclusive from the photos? He's still behaving perfectly healthy and there is not a single spot on any other fish.

Thank you for your help.

[ThRoewer]

I would say that it's ich. Back in Germany I've never seen these fish clean - all always looked like the one in your pictures, covered in ich. Also, all books I had at the time said that they are ich prone.
It may of course be that they have a disease that looks like ich, but only affects them. But I think that's highly unlikely.

Though I've seen some super large ones at a LFS recently and they looked clean.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

I would say that it's ich. Back in Germany I've never seen these fish clean - all always looked like the one in your pictures, covered in ich. Also, all books I had at the time said that they are ich prone.
It may of course be that they have a disease that looks like ich, but only affects them. But I think that's highly unlikely.

To speak on this, and to give an update on my tank, it's been 3 weeks now, and I am still not sure that I am dealing with ich. The symptoms pictured originally in this thread, on my neon goby, change from day to day. Two days ago, the goby looked completely clean and healthy. Then yesterday he looked awful, like in the photos. Now today he looks way better, not quite as good as two days ago, but drastically better than yesterday.

Now, I have also, obviously, been very closely observing every fish for any signs of disease. And on a couple fish, I THOUGHT there was a spot or two, here and there, but it would go away the next day, or it was just nothing, and I'm just looking so closely so often, that I find any little tiny thing and assume it's a symptom. But, what I am sure of is this:

1) The neon goby is the only fish that has looked (symptom-wise) anywhere close to the pictures
2) His appearance (white spots/marks) changes on a daily basis
3) The neon goby, or any fish in the tank, has not once been observed flashing
4) Every fish has continued to eat 100%
5) No fish has changed behavior in any observable way in the 3 weeks since symptoms first appeared

What do you guys think about all that?

[bat21]

I forgot one other thing. My black clown doesn't have any salt-looking ich spots, but he appears, the best way to describe it, dusty. Like if you haven't dusted a piece of black furniture in a while. I'll try to post some pictures if I can clearly capture it. But it is very different than the neon goby, and again, he is still eating and acting completely normally.

[madweazl]

To speak on this, and to give an update on my tank, it's been 3 weeks now, and I am still not sure that I am dealing with ich. The symptoms pictured originally in this thread, on my neon goby, change from day to day. Two days ago, the goby looked completely clean and healthy. Then yesterday he looked awful, like in the photos. Now today he looks way better, not quite as good as two days ago, but drastically better than yesterday.

Now, I have also, obviously, been very closely observing every fish for any signs of disease. And on a couple fish, I THOUGHT there was a spot or two, here and there, but it would go away the next day, or it was just nothing, and I'm just looking so closely so often, that I find any little tiny thing and assume it's a symptom. But, what I am sure of is this:

1) The neon goby is the only fish that has looked (symptom-wise) anywhere close to the pictures
2) His appearance (white spots/marks) changes on a daily basis
3) The neon goby, or any fish in the tank, has not once been observed flashing
4) Every fish has continued to eat 100%
5) No fish has changed behavior in any observable way in the 3 weeks since symptoms first appeared

What do you guys think about all that?

This is indicative of the life-cycle for ich. As for the clown, you can investigate brooklynella to see if that matches what you're seeing (let us hope not).

[bat21]

Got a good photo of the "dusty" clown:

354658

[dweber618]

Agreed - sounds (and looks) textbook for ich on your goby. I had a clown that looked like that, I ran her through TTM, and a couple formalin baths (as that is treatment for brook), and she survived.

[bat21]

This is indicative of the life-cycle for ich. As for the clown, you can investigate brooklynella to see if that matches what you're seeing (let us hope not).

It can't be brooklynella because he has looked like this for at least a week, if not more, and is behaving completely normally. From what I've read brook usually means death in 24-72 hours, with flashing, heavy breathing, not eating, none of which he is displaying.

[dweber618]

Well - both of the fish are clearly sick, and if it were me - I would pull them and treat them for anything and everything rather than keep just keep observing them as they aren't going to get better on their own.

Bare minimum it sounds like you would want to attempt hypo on your DT - but that won't clear brook or other diseases to my knowledge. I would catch all the fish, give them formalin baths (even as just a prophylactic treatment), go through TTM, and let my tank sit fallow. But, I understand that isn't an option given the space constraints you listed above.

Tough situation, I learned the hard way as well - ich broke out in my DT and I had to remove all my fish to try to prevent the looming mass die off.

[bat21]

Well - both of the fish are clearly sick, and if it were me - I would pull them and treat them for anything and everything rather than keep just keep observing them as they aren't going to get better on their own.

Bare minimum it sounds like you would want to attempt hypo on your DT - but that won't clear brook or other diseases to my knowledge. I would catch all the fish, give them formalin baths (even as just a prophylactic treatment), go through TTM, and let my tank sit fallow. But, I understand that isn't an option given the space constraints you listed above.

Tough situation, I learned the hard way as well - ich broke out in my DT and I had to remove all my fish to try to prevent the looming mass die off.

The timing of this is a big problem though. I'm going away yet again in 2 weeks. This time for 10 days. So I can't trust anyone else to maintain a hypo tank. I have a hard enough time getting the fish sitter I currently have to even do the simplest things consistently correct. I don't have an ATO. The people watching my tank during this trip will be first timers. Smart, trustworthy and dependable, but nonetheless have zero experience.

TTM is simply not an option for this many fish in my apartment. I can try to catch both clownfish and give them a formalin bath. But would that make a difference if they are just going to go back into the same tank afterwards?

Also, HOW THE HECK DID I GET 2 DISEASES in my tank? The only thing added in the past 3 months were snails, and the only thing 2 months before that was a pajama cardinal which I quarantined for 6 weeks.

[ThRoewer]

A hyposalinity tank is actually the easiest to maintain by a non-aquarist. All you have to do is to adjust the salinity right, mark the water level and cover the tank to about 90%. Further I would lower the temperature to just 24°C. The cover and lower temperature will limit evaporation, and the fill level mark makes it easy for anyone to keep the salinity right just by adding freshwater as needed.

As for the clownfish - it may have a secondary bacterial infection from the ich.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

A hyposalinity tank is actually the easiest to maintain by a non-aquarist. All you have to do is to adjust the salinity right, mark the water level and cover the tank to about 90%. Further I would lower the temperature to just 24°C. The cover and lower temperature will limit evaporation, and the fill level mark makes it easy for anyone to keep the salinity right just by adding freshwater as needed.

As for the clownfish - it may have a secondary bacterial infection from the ich.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

First off, thank you everyone for all your responses trying to help.

Ok, a couple questions, while I try to formulate the best plan of attack here.

1. If I decide to do the hypo, would that also probably take care of the bacterial infection (if thats what it is)? Or should I also consider an antibiotic?

2. Since I would have to hypo the display, I am unsure of what to do with my invertebrates. I think I could fairly easily transfer my 3 shrimp and hermits to my small cycled quarantine tank, where I could have them easily subsist on pellets (to make things easy for a fish sitter). But I have several very large turbo snails and many other smaller snails that would no doubt starve in that small tank since there is not close to enough algae to feed them, or even space to fit them all. How should I handle that?

Or do I really have no choice but to buy a much larger quarantine tank and catch all of my fish and transfer them into there? Do you think a 14 gallon tank could house 8 small fish for 3 months?

[madweazl]

That small of a tank will just stress the fish to the absolute max and do more harm than good even if they aren't fighting.

[bat21]

That small of a tank will just stress the fish to the absolute max and do more harm than good even if they aren't fighting.

Right, and we want their stress level as low as possible when fighting disease and adjusting to hypo. So obviously the least amount of stress would be leaving them in the display. So that brings me back to hypoing the display.

I guess I could set up the 14 gallon just for the invertebrates, transfer some live rock in there to increase the biofilter and add surface area for algae to grow and feed the snails, and just have as long a light period as is needed to keep algae growing enough.

I have dozens of dwarf ceriths in my sand, but I don't want to turnover my whole sandbed looking for them as I worry what that would do. So if they are going to perish, I will get an ammonia badge and keep Amquel at the ready.

Does this seem like an acceptable plan? If so, do you think I have to do it now? Or could I wait 3 weeks until I'm home for a 3 month stretch? I know it's a risk, but I know plenty of people just have ich in their tank and the fish are able to fight it off, which they have done for the most part for 3-6 weeks. It may be just as great a risk to trust a non-aquarist with 2 tanks, one running hypo.

I could just try an antibiotic now (which one would you recommend?) for the clowns, and then go into full attack mode the 2nd week of August when I can be home every single day.

As you can see, I am wrestling with what to do, as this is my first time dealing with a disease of any kind, with the wildcard of being away in 2 weeks thrown in. My wife is now stressed watching me stress over this.

[ThRoewer]

Hyposalinity or any other effective ich treatments of the DT will just end in disaster. Any treatment has to be in a hospital tank. All effective treatments will kill off algae, bacteria and most inverts, so a tank crash is almost a certain thing.

Hyposalinity won't do anything against bacterial infections, just the opposite as the vastly reduced salinity also reduces the antibacterial properties of full saltwater. Bacterial blooms are one of the possible side effects of hyposalinity.
If the clownfish indeed has a bacterial infection it will need treatment with antibiotics.

If you cannot change your schedule or have someone else take care of this then it may be better to roll the dice and wait with treatment until you return. You may lose some fish, but the outlook is far better than with unsupervised treatment.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[ThRoewer]

Just saw that you still have 2 weeks - that would be just enough for TTM and antibiotics treatment.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

Just saw that you still have 2 weeks - that would be just enough for TTM and antibiotics treatment.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

What good does TTM do me if I have to leave the display fallow for 3 months? In either scenarios, TTM or Hypo, I need a hospital tank large enough to house all 8 fish for 3 months. And since I need to do that anyway, I might as well just run it hypo, rather than the hassle of TTM for that many fish.

I don't think I can legitimately set up a 25-30 gallon hospital tank. But if I somehow figured out a way to do that, there is no way I could leave a fish sitter in charge of that situation.

I can remove the clowns, treat them with antibiotics in my current QT, and then either put them back in the display or leave them in the QT while I'm gone. What antibotic would you recommend?

[ThRoewer]

I had good results with amoxicillin (fishmox).

If only the gobies show symptoms I would remove them if possible.

Hyposalinity in an established tank will cause a massive die-off and a subsequent ammonia spike. I can almost guarantee you that you will have losses. Without anyone to intervene you may just come home to a tank full of stinky fish soup.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

I had good results with amoxicillin (fishmox).

If only the gobies show symptoms I would remove them if possible.

Hyposalinity in an established tank will cause a massive die-off and a subsequent ammonia spike. I can almost guarantee you that you will have losses. Without anyone to intervene you may just come home to a tank full of stinky fish soup.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I have no plans to do any hypo until I get back. Hospital Tank or Display. I am just going to hope for the best while I'm away. So which of these choices would you recommend:

A) Move clowns to QT and treat there with fishmox
B) Move infected neon goby to QT and treat DT with fishmox

[ThRoewer]

I would go with A

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

Update on this. I have been treating the black clown with fish mox in my QT. Today will be day 5, and he seems to be improving. The white coloring you see in the photos is less, he seems to have a bit more energy as well, and his appetite is also coming back. The orange clown who does seem to have a bit of the same whitish tint, has not lost any amount of energy or appetite. I was going to treat them both, but I could not for the life of me catch her. So after many attempts, I gave up and just treated the male who was lethargic and easy to catch, since I wasn't sure the fish mox was even going to help anyway. But now that it seems to be helping, I will make another attempt to catch the female and get her some treatment before I go away.

Regarding the main tank, and the possible ich, I have still yet to see symptoms on any fish besides the neon goby, who is still behaving and eating completely normally, and hasn't shown symptoms in 5 days (I know this is normal for ich, just giving the facts). I am prepared to tear apart the tank and catch all the fish and perform hypo in a hospital tank. However, I won't be attempting it until after my trip. And, in addition, I will be holding off until I see ich symptoms on another fish. I know the pictures and descriptions seem to be textbook ich, but I am not going to be sure until it's on another fish. At that point, I'll take action. But it is a large undertaking, and I need to be 100% sure before going through with it.

[bat21]

The improvement in the clown has backtracked. He started getting better and then reverted back to the start. So now I just don't know what to do. I'm leaving on Thursday. Should I try a formalin bath? I've never done it, but I did buy formalin to have on hand.

[ThRoewer]

I would give it a try.
As for the antibiotic treatment - did you treat for at least 5 days?
Is he still in the treatment tank or did you return him to the DT?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[bat21]

I would give it a try.
As for the antibiotic treatment - did you treat for at least 5 days?
Is he still in the treatment tank or did you return him to the DT?

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

I am still doing it, he's still in the QT. I'm on day 7 or 8 but after him appearing to improve after day 3 or 4, he then reverted back to being more lethargic, less hungry, and more white stuff on him. I think I'm going to try the formalin. Is there a guide here for formalin baths? Like I said, I've never done it, so I want to make sure I do it right. I have a couple one gallon tanks, or I have 4 & 5 gallon buckets. Which should I use, how many baths should I give him, etc. I need guidance. Thank you again for your help.

[bat21]

Going to give him a formalin bath tonight. Should I do it again tomorrow? I am leaving Thursday, so need to either leave him in QT or return to DT wednesday evening. Worried about giving second tank to fish sitter. But may not have a choice.

The timing of this was really unfortunate. I am never adding anything to a tank within 4 months of a vacation ever again.