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Wesus
07/18/2016, 11:56 AM
Its been 6 weeks since I switched from NOPOX to NP PRO and PRO BIO S and my nitrates are slowly climbing. My system with total water volume 90 gal was always under 1 ppm and since I switched to AF is going up about 1 ppm per week. I'm using NP pro for doser 2l bottle. Started from 15 ml, now 25 ml. I opened bottle and liquid doesn't have any smell or taste and TDS is 5.
I would be grateful if someone who is using NP Pro 2l could check TDS. I have hard time to believe that liquid with tds 5 has enough carbon to feed bacteria

plyle02
07/18/2016, 02:42 PM
Wesus,
That is the diluted version, the concentrated has no smell either, I have used it for 6 months, and based on the feedback from NOPOX users, they find it not as harsh at lowering N&P. That said, this system is driven on bacteria and does take time to become effective. More soever, I would be very interested in hearing about the corals response to AF? Are you using any media to help with colonization of bacteria, like siporax or matrix? AF will soon be releasing a bacteria seeded media that will help in controlling N&P a bit better, along side of the Pro Bio S and NP Pro. So basically, the NP Pro and Pro Bio S may not be enough alone to control nutrients. I have a 120 gallon SPS reef, use only 4 drops of each per day, but I have 2Liters of Siporax, 4Liters of Matrix, and I also use the Zeo Mix. My bioload is very heavy, so NP Pro and Pro Bio S alone will not keep up on my system, I also feed only frozen fish foods, and 3-4 times per day, as I have anthias. That said, I measure 1ppm NO3 and 0.00 PO4. Cheers

Wesus
07/19/2016, 05:15 AM
Hi Perry,

I have about 2 liters of Matrix, 20 lb live rock and refugium in my sump. My bioload is light, I was using only 3ml of NOPOX before.
I have mixed reef and I was hopping that switching to AF products will improve growth and coloration my sps corals. Unfortunately I lost most of my acros frags and 1 colony. I have some cyano and even my lps are not doing so well. This is not only my experience with switching to AF, I know two more tanks with even worst problems.
I've started process of switching to AF in March and everything gets worst. Maybe starting from scratch would work better, but switching mature tank to AF is not really good idea IMO.
Looks like I have to give up on AF products before I will loose all my corals

plyle02
07/19/2016, 05:18 PM
Sorry to hear of these problems, when I have these type of issues, I usually go offline on dosing anything until I feel confident that the corals are showing PE, the color is coming back, and visible signs of growth. During this time, I usually reset by doing a bunch of water changes to stabilize things. My tank was a conversion tank, and I had no problems at all, keep us informed at you course of action :) Cheers!

Wesus
09/15/2016, 09:50 AM
I received replacement NP pro, this time concentrated version, from Aquaforest and after couple weeks my NO3 dropped to stable 0.2-0.5 ppm. Phosphorus is stable at around 10 ppb without any GFO.

plyle02
09/15/2016, 04:23 PM
Awesome :)

jimmys91
09/15/2016, 07:43 PM
How much of the concentrated are you dosing?

Croff
09/16/2016, 07:59 AM
I am having the same problem, and never thought that I could have a bad batch of NP Pro or Pro Bio S. I am using the concentrated bottles (50 ml), but I think I'll buy new ones to see if my nutrients finally drop. It's been hot this summer in Madrid, and although I kept Pro Bio S in the fridge, maybe it got bad.

Wesus
09/16/2016, 08:05 AM
How much of the concentrated are you dosing?

I used to dose daily 4 drops per about 90 gal of water. Right now I dose same amount twice a week

Wesus
09/16/2016, 08:09 AM
I am having the same problem, and never thought that I could have a bad batch of NP Pro or Pro Bio S. I am using the concentrated bottles (50 ml), but I think I'll buy new ones to see if my nutrients finally drop. It's been hot this summer in Madrid, and although I kept Pro Bio S in the fridge, maybe it got bad.

I did not have problem with concentrated version of NP Pro. I would say Pro Bio S is more likely to go bad in high temps

aristocrat
09/20/2016, 06:03 AM
Hi Perry,

I have about 2 liters of Matrix, 20 lb live rock and refugium in my sump. My bioload is light, I was using only 3ml of NOPOX before.
I have mixed reef and I was hopping that switching to AF products will improve growth and coloration my sps corals. Unfortunately I lost most of my acros frags and 1 colony. I have some cyano and even my lps are not doing so well. This is not only my experience with switching to AF, I know two more tanks with even worst problems.
I've started process of switching to AF in March and everything gets worst. Maybe starting from scratch would work better, but switching mature tank to AF is not really good idea IMO.
Looks like I have to give up on AF products before I will loose all my corals

Just the same issue, my tank is same as yours. Being microbiologist, loved the concept of probiotics. Done a very slow transition from NO3PO4X to -NP pro, first meet and greet with cyano outbreak, and now brown stuff grew everywhere and killed my acros and monti. My weekly maintenance has become daily maintenance, sand and glass turns brown everyday. I use continuum salt and Red Sea foundation A, B and C.

Probably if planning to use all aquaforest products together to start a new system might do really well. But a mix of things, IME will only ruin your time, effort and money. Also, PRO BIO S is not available here in Australia. Put in so much effort in building my first successful reef tank, took more than a year and now few mililiters of a fluid ruined everything, So disappointed! :blown:

Planning to switch back to NO3PO4X, is that a good idea?:rolleyes:

Wesus
09/20/2016, 06:27 AM
Hi Aristiocrat,

According to Aquaforest website Pro Bio S should be available in Australia. How long since you switched to NP Pro?

aristocrat
09/20/2016, 03:52 PM
Hi Aristiocrat,

According to Aquaforest website Pro Bio S should be available in Australia. How long since you switched to NP Pro?



Thanks for your response. I don't think it is, my LFS is quite big and I cannot find anything online either, my LFS owner is quite knowledgeable and he reckons AQ do not want to disclose the bacterial composition within PRO BIO S and so Australian Quarantine has not allowed them to sell the product. May be will check with another store, but do you suggest its worth trying to dose PRO BIO S or just switch back to NOPOX? I read they have a powder version of the NP PRO that has the spores within, is this correct?

Its been about 3.5 weeks I made the switch.


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Wesus
09/20/2016, 04:04 PM
I think it is too early to give up. Switching back and forth is not good for system either. I would try to find Pro Bio S locally or try to order online from US if possible.
I hope someone from AF can help you, since my knowledge is limited

aristocrat
09/21/2016, 03:46 PM
I think it is too early to give up. Switching back and forth is not good for system either. I would try to find Pro Bio S locally or try to order online from US if possible.
I hope someone from AF can help you, since my knowledge is limited



I spoke to Aquaforest and they reckon I should use NP pro only in conjunction with PROBIO S (which is not available in Australia)

However I got this following info from a local fish store,

"Not availble yet. Will be soon. Np pro can still be used. It just inst as effective without it.
Any carbon dosing change will cuase a cyano outbreak. Usually it is very mild. Cyano is a bacteria that grows from an inballance. And when you change the food/carbon source the bacteria you were growing will die off causing a bloom. And a new bacteria will grow to the new food source.

Anytime you change carbon sourve you should gradually reduce the current dose over about 4 weeks.
Then gradually dose the new carbon source in the same way.

Try not to be too specific with your numbers. I recommend 2-3 no3 and around 0.04 phos. But its just a guide. The sps still need these to survive. The higher the par your lighing produces the higher these numbers can be.

I think a crash has occured due to the change in carbon source. It would have likely affected the orp and oxy levels in the system. And that can have a snowball effect.
Also the cyano itself can harm the polyps.
Ultra low nutrient systems are a lot more fragile to these crashes"

And he advised me to continue to dose!


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aristocrat
11/23/2016, 06:09 AM
Hello guys,

Just wanted to update on what has happened recently.

I finally got PRO BIO S, starting switchin from NOPOX to NP PRO slowly, first cyabno. Starting killing my sps. Now finally i siphoned all the cyano and stirred the sand and done 80% water change and after a week my nitrates at 12-25 ppm and phosphates at 0.07 first time ever since i stppoed NOPOX. Now my sps start to bleach.

plyle02
11/23/2016, 06:19 AM
aristocrat,
Please provide more specs on the tank, parameters, filtration, lighting, and pictures if you will? This would help, maybe something can be figured out this way :)

aristocrat
11/24/2016, 04:27 AM
aristocrat,
Please provide more specs on the tank, parameters, filtration, lighting, and pictures if you will? This would help, maybe something can be figured out this way :)

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/43167e5cdacfe8aa9ebc2d3b9d14e468.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/1f7575c280f0330b8657105d3e6661b3.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/0c192d3d91f82ae881dc41421e397d43.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/564c6c8c513cb845344f0ef3eacfcaff.jpg


Hey thanks for your response.

Total tank volume about 190 liters.
About 15 kilo live rock
Shallow band bed
Skimmer rated for 600L-800L
1 big marine pure block in the refugium with cheato (refugium is the first compartment, I know this is not ideal. It was in the center before but there was lot of detritus as I dont use filter sock so for some active flow I moved the skimmer to the middle chamber.

Return is dark with some marine pure cubes and I normally chuck any dead sps skeleton in there (not sure if its a good idead I thought it was porous and gives extra filtration)

Return is a vectra m1 see the picture for the setting I run in.

One major mistake I did was overfeeding initially because NOPOX was handling it.
I used filter sock initially but got frustrated removed it as NOPOX was handling the load and nitrates was at 1ppm and phos was <0.025.

When everything was going good I tried to dose vodka instead of nopox, because I overdosed apparantly there was stringy cyano outbreak. I siphoned everything and blown the rocks got back to nopox. Things were all good. At this stage I had only LPS and an anemone. When things were stable I bought some sps and they did very well.

When i ran out of nopox I went to lfs and was advised to buy - np pro as it works out to be cheaper. My LFS is great, always gave me great advise. Pro Bio S was not available in australia yet and in fact none of the probiotic range was available. I started slowly introducing NP pro and reduced dosing nopox. This led to cyano but the brown one this time, started covering al my sps corals and killing them. Slowly my lps started to NOT open and thats when I realised this is getting out of control. Tests done all during this time had Nitrates at 0-1ppm and pohos undetectable. I use nyos test kits and all are within expiry.

Aquaforest told me to get hold of pro bio s and start dosing it.cyano was still there.I then siphoned all cyano out, connected a hose to the manifold and gently churned the sand and whilst the water was merky I used aquaforest reef salt and done an 80% water change, I assumed this will get rid of any excessive nutrients trapped in the sand. Sand looked clean all water prameters good. At this stage I was not dosing anymore nopox, this was the complete transition phase.

Still things did not change. After 6 days, my nitrates are between 18-25ppm. Done a 10% water change today and nitrates read the same.

My current parameters
Ph 8-8.3
Ca 390ppm
Mg 1300ppm
Alkalinity 7dkh
Salinity 1.025
Phosphates 0.075
Nitrates 12-25 ppm
Temperature between 26-27, got to 28 in one recent hot days.

I'm not guaging which product is good, I only want to stabilise my system and would like some feedback. I have a hydra 52 HD.

Here are the pics....

Currently all LPS are doing great. The anemone I had initially caught itself in the wave maker and perished. I got another one which travelled a while for a spot and got a bit stressed and since then does not open. Now the anemone eats small pieces of shrimp so I feed twice a week to revive it.

My scrolling monti had a bit cyano on top, no cyano now but looks strange.

My superman monti started to bleach.

The middle coral garden was gift from a friend. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/e0f456a75e43d93506c40a956c350075.jpg the sps in it now shrunk its polyps guess due to high nitrates.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/5e8ed05b01d8069e9a8de68cac900487.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/a31c2fdf5e9efc3680bb1425c63be48b.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161124/f2eab3c1277cc233c08d3e26d7caac54.jpg

My hydra schedule. Sorry about the long post had to post the whole story.





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plyle02
11/24/2016, 10:46 AM
If it were me, I would use the section with the light over it, assuming algae fuge, and clean it well and place copious amounts of siporax, as at some point the bacteria will out compete the algae for nutrient reduction, sort of push and pull effect. I find siporax to keep nitrates quite low, and with the use of Phosphate Minus, I am personally running 2.5 on NO3 and 0.02 on PO4, these numbers don't really fluctuate, despite heavy feedings. The Probiotic Method will not work immediately, but after sustained usage and a good home to expand your bio-filtration, you will eventually be able to feed more, which in turn gets more nutrition to your corals. The largest mistake I think we make is to cut feeding based on test results, it is my belief that coral and fish health are directly associated to nutrients into the tank. Ensure you skimmer is set to dry, so that you are not skimming off the NP Pro and Pro Bio S. Thanks for the pictures and information, these are a few things to maybe try assuming it is available to you :)

Wesus
11/25/2016, 10:35 AM
Hi Aristocrat,

I think MP block in first compartment with light on and no socks is not best choice. Most likely all pores are clogged by debris and algae.
I would recommend seachem matrix in reactor. I have 2.5 liter Matrix in inexpensive Seaside Aquatic medium reactor

Wesus
11/25/2016, 10:41 AM
If it were me, I would use the section with the light over it, assuming algae fuge, and clean it well and place copious amounts of siporax, as at some point the bacteria will out compete the algae for nutrient reduction, sort of push and pull effect. I find siporax to keep nitrates quite low, and with the use of Phosphate Minus, I am personally running 2.5 on NO3 and 0.02 on PO4, these numbers don't really fluctuate, despite heavy feedings. The Probiotic Method will not work immediately, but after sustained usage and a good home to expand your bio-filtration, you will eventually be able to feed more, which in turn gets more nutrition to your corals. The largest mistake I think we make is to cut feeding based on test results, it is my belief that coral and fish health are directly associated to nutrients into the tank. Ensure you skimmer is set to dry, so that you are not skimming off the NP Pro and Pro Bio S. Thanks for the pictures and information, these are a few things to maybe try assuming it is available to you :)

I'm pretty sure Aquaforest recommends wet skimming with probiotic method

plyle02
11/26/2016, 04:48 AM
Sorry Wesus,
The Probiotic Method recommends "dry skimming" page 9 in the user guide, top of the page. Cheers :)

aristocrat
11/28/2016, 07:03 AM
Hi Aristocrat,

I think MP block in first compartment with light on and no socks is not best choice. Most likely all pores are clogged by debris and algae.
I would recommend seachem matrix in reactor. I have 2.5 liter Matrix in inexpensive Seaside Aquatic medium reactor



Thank you will look at this [emoji106]


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aristocrat
12/20/2016, 03:12 AM
If it were me, I would use the section with the light over it, assuming algae fuge, and clean it well and place copious amounts of siporax, as at some point the bacteria will out compete the algae for nutrient reduction, sort of push and pull effect. I find siporax to keep nitrates quite low, and with the use of Phosphate Minus, I am personally running 2.5 on NO3 and 0.02 on PO4, these numbers don't really fluctuate, despite heavy feedings. The Probiotic Method will not work immediately, but after sustained usage and a good home to expand your bio-filtration, you will eventually be able to feed more, which in turn gets more nutrition to your corals. The largest mistake I think we make is to cut feeding based on test results, it is my belief that coral and fish health are directly associated to nutrients into the tank. Ensure you skimmer is set to dry, so that you are not skimming off the NP Pro and Pro Bio S. Thanks for the pictures and information, these are a few things to maybe try assuming it is available to you :)

Hi sorry I forgot to ask, do u recommend using a filter sock? I hate it because there is not enough space in the sump. I cannot upgrade to a bigger tank as I'm renting at the moment and the house is elevated, so my floor will not take any extra weight.

Thanks.

aristocrat
12/20/2016, 03:14 AM
Hi Aristocrat,

I think MP block in first compartment with light on and no socks is not best choice. Most likely all pores are clogged by debris and algae.
I would recommend seachem matrix in reactor. I have 2.5 liter Matrix in inexpensive Seaside Aquatic medium reactor

Hey Wesus, so your nitrates are now stable and down? Did they come down after adding the matrix? Do u use a filter sock?

Thanks.

Wesus
12/20/2016, 05:31 AM
Hey Wesus, so your nitrates are now stable and down? Did they come down after adding the matrix? Do u use a filter sock?

Thanks.

I'm using socks on and off, more off.
With Matrix in reactor NO3 seems to be more stable, but went down before I installed reactor, even too much down with daily np pro and pro bio s dosing

GoVols
12/20/2016, 06:33 PM
@aristocrat,
I was running 500ml of Purigen in a Aquamaxx XL BioMaxx (Modded) reactor. The purigen was doing great but was soaking up Reef Energy so much and was turning into a bio media before being fully exhausted. Not saying I wont got back to that setup.

Last Monday I got 6 liters of Matrix.
Un-Modified the reactor and put 4 liters into it with a 30 gal an hour flow rate.
Placed the other 2 liters in high flow area of sump.

Do have enough Matrix knowledge: To you know if the Matrix reactor would hold down nitrates?

GoVols
12/20/2016, 06:38 PM
Sorry...

Do YOU have enough Matrix knowledge: To you know if the Matrix reactor would hold down nitrates?

aristocrat
12/20/2016, 07:09 PM
Sorry...

Do YOU have enough Matrix knowledge: To you know if the Matrix reactor would hold down nitrates?



Lol no not at all mate. Never even heard of it, not sure if its even available in Australia.

Looks like matrix is made of pumice which is just aerated volcanic rock and has no adsorption properties. So this genuinely sounds like surface area enhancer for bacterial growth.

On the other hand media such as zeolite are made for adsorption so it adsorbs nutrients from water so this might quickly adsorb any vitality or build or energy supplements we may add.

So from literature it looks like it enhances denitrification. Not sure of the results though. Would love to try if available in Aus.

Cheers.


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GoVols
12/20/2016, 07:27 PM
Lol no not at all mate. Never even heard of it, not sure if its even available in Australia.

Looks like matrix is made of pumice which is just aerated volcanic rock and has no adsorption properties. So this genuinely sounds like surface area enhancer for bacterial growth.

On the other hand media such as zeolite are made for adsorption so it adsorbs nutrients from water so this might quickly adsorb any vitality or build or energy supplements we may add.

So from literature it looks like it enhances denitrification. Not sure of the results though. Would love to try if available in Aus.

Cheers.


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Welp, I'm going to find out! lol

GoVols
12/20/2016, 07:41 PM
Lol no not at all mate. Never even heard of it, not sure if its even available in Australia.

Looks like matrix is made of pumice which is just aerated volcanic rock and has no adsorption properties. So this genuinely sounds like surface area enhancer for bacterial growth.

On the other hand media such as zeolite are made for adsorption so it adsorbs nutrients from water so this might quickly adsorb any vitality or build or energy supplements we may add.

So from literature it looks like it enhances denitrification. Not sure of the results though. Would love to try if available in Aus.

Cheers.


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I'm only 8x's over the Seachem's volume per gallon.

If it debunks on nitrates I might be sending you 6 liters "Down Under"!