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View Full Version : What's a good bacteria to dose after water change


Yolly416
07/26/2016, 07:29 AM
Good Bacteria


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Ron Reefman
07/26/2016, 08:00 AM
Why would you dose bacteria after a water change?

zeemofree
07/26/2016, 08:24 AM
good bacteria sent from my iphone using tapatalk


af probio,

GimpyFin
07/26/2016, 01:29 PM
I'm curious as well. Any reason for wanting to add bacteria after a water change?

cincyjim
07/27/2016, 08:36 AM
I use API Stress Zyme on a weekly basis. Is that a waste of time and money? The tank is over 5 years old.

Subsea
07/27/2016, 09:23 AM
A reason to dose good bacteria is because not all bacteria grow at the same rate. Nitrification bacteria far exceed the rate of growth of facultative or denitrification bacteria. Given the dynamics of these differrent growth rates, certain good bacteria are crowded out of effective population densities.

https://www.tlc-products.com/pdf/HOW%20TLC%20BACTERIA%20WORK.pdf

This link gets into the science behind the role of differrent bacteria and enzymes in a marine enviroment. These microbial overlords make it happen. Just ask the Martians in "War of the Worlds".

jason2459
07/27/2016, 02:22 PM
Or just feed the facultative bacteria a carbon source like acetic acid (vinegar) or ethanol (vodka) or a combination of the two.

Subsea
07/27/2016, 05:27 PM
Or just feed the facultative bacteria a carbon source like acetic acid (vinegar) or ethanol (vodka) or a combination of the two.

As I said in the post and as the scientific articles describes in detail, nitrifying bacteria will exponentially multiply and consume the carbon source before the facultative bacteria.

jason2459
07/27/2016, 06:46 PM
As I said in the post and as the scientific articles describes in detail, nitrifying bacteria will exponentially multiply and consume the carbon source before the facultative bacteria.
I've seen papers saying otherwise.

Do you have more of a peer reviewed paper and not one from someone selling a product?

jason2459
07/27/2016, 06:59 PM
Yolly416 here's a good thread to read through covering various carbon sources.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2134105

Yolly416
07/27/2016, 07:16 PM
I usually dose special blend once a week


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Subsea
07/27/2016, 07:26 PM
For most reefkeepers that use skimmers, denitrification is unnecessary. When any bacteria grow, they absorb nitrates and phosphates. Therefore carbon dosing with protein skimming removes bacteria in the water column, thereby removing nitrate and phosphate. However, because they are in a high oxygen zone they would not be faculative bacteria as tmz says on the first post of the thread linked.




I discontinued protein skimming twenty years ago. I rely on denitrification bacteria for nitrate export and macro algae removal for other nutrient export.

Considering that protein skimmers, at best, remove 30% of DOC (dissolved organic carbon)
I use activated carbon which removes 70% of DOC.

jason2459
07/27/2016, 07:56 PM
Facultative do not require low or high oxygen environments. That would be obligatory bacteria. Facultative can be aerobic and switch to anaerobic. Some prefer one or the other. Carbon dosing with acetic acid or ethanol is thought to feed that type of bacteria among other organisms.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/43be53001a098faf68d08afeb883c387.jpg

Subsea
07/27/2016, 08:09 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facultative_anaerobic_organism

Faculative bacteria live in low oxygen or no oxygen environments. Faculative bacteria perform denitrification with free nitrogen gas as an end product.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification

Subsea
07/27/2016, 08:17 PM
IMO, carbon dosing feeds all bacteria. Some bacteria just grow faster, in particular, nitrification bacteria.

jason2459
07/27/2016, 08:33 PM
IMO, carbon dosing feeds all bacteria...

Many good and bad Including cyano


Each carbon source goes through an oxidation process or metabolized (some manufacturers like those for vinegar call it fermentation) by a particular type of bacteria and has a particular metabolite.

Like ethanol

Metabolism
Hepatic enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase

Metabolites
Acetaldehyde, acetic acid, acetyl-CoA, carbon dioxide, water

Subsea
07/27/2016, 08:42 PM
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2587610

When I recently saw this post, I said the bugs win. As a bioreactor, the OP feeds bacteria and carbon as he observes nitrogen bubbles exiting the reactor. How cool is that.

jason2459
07/27/2016, 09:14 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facultative_anaerobic_organism

Faculative bacteria live in low oxygen or no oxygen environments. Faculative bacteria perform denitrification with free nitrogen gas as an end product.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denitrification
If you look at our posts we are talking partly the same thing.

Subsea
07/27/2016, 09:41 PM
If you look at our posts we are talking partly the same thing.


No worries. At 68 years old, I may be a little crusty. Add to that, I am a Cajun Aggie with a degree in Marine Engineering. To top it off, I have a Class 4 certification in waste water treatment, which qualifies me to consult people on how to stir S.H.I.T.

j_mazzy
07/27/2016, 09:45 PM
No worries. At 68 years old, I may be a little crusty. Add to that, I am a Cajun Aggie with a degree in Marine Engineering. To top it off, I have a Class 4 certification in waste water treatment, which qualifies me to consult people on how to stir S.H.I.T.

this is an instant classic post

Subsea
07/27/2016, 10:03 PM
I use API Stress Zyme on a weekly basis. Is that a waste of time and money? The tank is over 5 years old.

In looking at product ingredients, they do not list individual bacteria, except to say nitrification bacteria. These is little need to dose this type of bacteria once it is in the tank, unless you had a major upset with low dissolved oxygen in the water column.

Subsea
07/27/2016, 10:16 PM
Good Bacteria


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Are you using a protein skimmer and are you carbon dosing? Bacteria in the water column will reproduce faster than the skimmer can remove them. No need to dose bacteria in those circumstances.

Subsea
07/28/2016, 06:09 AM
I've seen papers saying otherwise.

Do you have more of a peer reviewed paper and not one from someone selling a product?

http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Dr Ron is a microbiologist. He claims that nitrifying bacteria double every 20 minutes.

http://www.fao.org/3/a-i4021e/i4021e05.pdf
This article from US Agriculture on bacteria in hydroponics says nitrification bacteria are slow growing.

Because I don't trust the government on much of anything, I will go with Dr Ron.

Paul B
07/28/2016, 06:47 AM
Facultative do not require low or high oxygen environments. That would be obligatory bacteria. Facultative can be aerobic and switch to anaerobic. Some prefer one or the other. Carbon dosing with acetic acid or ethanol is thought to feed that type of bacteria among other organisms.


http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160728/43be53001a098faf68d08afeb883c387.jpg

I go here, pick up a handful of mud, and throw it in my tank. It contains all of that. I think! But it doesn't come in those cute little bottles.
And Subsea is correct. That is why those Martians of "War of the Worlds" (one of my favorite sci fy movies in the 50s or 60s) never went to a tide pool to collect.
My tank was started with this stuff in 1971 and I still dump it in there. No problems yet, but I read problems start after 47 years.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg.html)

Subsea
07/28/2016, 06:50 AM
I go here, pick up a handful of mud, and throw it in my tank. It contains all of that. I think! But it doesn't come in those cute little bottles

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg.html)

You are too funny. Thank you for your wisdom and practical knowledge.

jason2459
07/28/2016, 07:38 AM
I go here, pick up a handful of mud, and throw it in my tank. It contains all of that. I think! But it doesn't come in those cute little bottles.
And Subsea is correct. That is why those Martians of "War of the Worlds" (one of my favorite sci fy movies in the 50s or 60s) never went to a tide pool to collect.
My tank was started with this stuff in 1971 and I still dump it in there. No problems yet, but I read problems start after 47 years.

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2013-03-03%2002.51.34_zpszar1utwn.jpg.html)
Best way to dose bacteria right there.

jason2459
07/28/2016, 07:39 AM
http://www.ronshimek.com/deep_sand_beds.html
Dr Ron is a microbiologist. He claims that nitrifying bacteria double every 20 minutes.

http://www.fao.org/3/a-i4021e/i4021e05.pdf
This article from US Agriculture on bacteria in hydroponics says nitrification bacteria are slow growing.

Because I don't trust the government on much of anything, I will go with Dr Ron.
Thanks I will try and read through those later when I get a chance.

Paul B
07/28/2016, 12:08 PM
Thanks, I have no wisdom or practical knowledge. I make this stuff up as I go along. :wave:

Subsea
07/28/2016, 12:55 PM
Thanks, I have no wisdom or practical knowledge. I make this stuff up as I go along. :wave:


Me also and it is fun.

I know you run high nutrient systems with nitrate 20-40ppm as do I. When you measure, what do your phosphates run. Timfish has several maintenance tanks set up for > 20 years in which he runs nitrates >20ppm and phosphate at 1-2ppm with SPS coral that grow fast. While most reefers will disagree with these techniques it is hard to argue with results over such a long period of time.
Your tank set up at 47 years is older than 90% of the people on this hobby forum. While I can't get the"funky old mud" that you get, I use packaged bacteria. The two advantages for you are: it's free and it will bring in pathogens that increase fish immune systems. Even though I purchase aquacultured fish, I felt that their immune systems were a weakness compared to wild caught.

Paul B
07/28/2016, 01:22 PM
My reef is only 45 years old, (not 47) and I have no idea what my phosphates are. But I am going to my favorite LFS now so I will bring some water for them to test. I don't have a test kit (and don't want one)

This is me collecting that bacteria for that company to put in those little packages. :lmao:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Project6.png (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/Project6.png.html)

Subsea
07/28/2016, 01:34 PM
My test kit for phosphate is when I see the beginning of cynobacteria. Then I use a phosphate resin, which is very seldome. I am presently dealing with a cyno problem in my Jaubert Plenumn 6" DSB. It served me for 20 years. However, I am now paying from neglect to vacumining it. This is the only tank with a DSB and a mud refugium.

I have always liked the concept of your reverse flow under gravel filter. I remember when you spoke of it, you emphasized low flow. Do you feel that you have denitrification going on in this sandbed?

Subsea
07/28/2016, 01:40 PM
My reef is only 45 years old, (not 47) and I have no idea what my phosphates are. But I am going to my favorite LFS now so I will bring some water for them to test. I don't have a test kit (and don't want one)

This is me collecting that bacteria for that company to put in those little packages. :lmao:

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Project6.png (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/Project6.png.html)

You should talk to Marc Weiss, he markets FORM, Funky Old Reef Mud.

Paul B
07/28/2016, 03:50 PM
My test kit for phosphate is when I see the beginning of cynobacteria. Then I use a phosphate resin, which is very seldome. I am presently dealing with a cyno problem in my Jaubert Plenumn 6" DSB. It served me for 20 years. However, I am now paying from neglect to vacumining it. This is the only tank with a DSB and a mud refugium.

I have always liked the concept of your reverse flow under gravel filter. I remember when you spoke of it, you emphasized low flow. Do you feel that you have denitrification going on in this sandbed?

I think some denitrification is going on but not much to speak of.

saintdrm
07/30/2016, 11:32 AM
Hi, i am curious to see som pics of these aged high nutrient systems that use no test kits etc.

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Subsea
07/30/2016, 12:54 PM
Timfish and Paul B. have many picture posted on this site.

Because I am battling "lack of neglect" consequences, I will not post picture just yet.

I have long believed in the efficiency of nature. Any scientist at the micro level has seen how efficient nature works, otherwise no evolution and survival of the fittest.

For certain, health of bacteria with protein skimmers exporting nutrient is the preferred choice of modern reefers. These bacteria that are free swimming, absorb these nutrients
from the water column and are exported with a protein skimmer. Add carbon dosing and you have a nutrient export machine.

Because bacteria set up complex food webs to process nutrients, they in turn are eaten by corals and sponges. I choose to focus on these natural food webs. Because I am a
laissez-faire reef-keeper, I choose to keep it simple and inexpensive.

Paul B
07/30/2016, 05:00 PM
Hi, i am curious to see som pics of these aged high nutrient systems that use no test kits etc.

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http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/2015-09-122021.18.39_zpsx89ktxcw.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/2015-09-122021.18.39_zpsx89ktxcw.jpg.html)

http://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh270/urchsearch/Merge2015_zpsd2f600cf.jpg (http://s258.photobucket.com/user/urchsearch/media/Merge2015_zpsd2f600cf.jpg.html)

saintdrm
07/30/2016, 05:33 PM
very nice display, as expected, because it is certainly possible to have a successful, beautiful reef tank with high nutrients. What is your opinion though on the survival and color of these so called "designer" corals (referring to mostly sps) in high nutrient tanks. do you think they will keep their intense color and growth rates as in low nutrient tanks with all the bells and whistles?

Subsea
07/30/2016, 05:50 PM
very nice display, as expected, because it is certainly possible to have a successful, beautiful reef tank with high nutrients. What is your opinion though on the survival and color of these so called "designer" corals (referring to mostly sps) in high nutrient tanks. do you think they will keep their intense color and growth rates as in low nutrient tanks with all the bells and whistles?

There are many ways to operate a reef tank. Charles Delbric said with response to seeing the bright colors of SPS from using ULNS methods, it happened just before the tank crashed. In effect the zooanthellia starve and stress the coral to give off bright colors.

Paul B
07/30/2016, 06:12 PM
Saintdrm. I probably can't keep colorful, delicate SPS in my tank because the nitrates are probably around 80. I am more interested in keeping the fish spawning and all of the paired fish are doing that. It is hard to keep healthy, spawning fish and delicate SPS unless you want to do massive water changes, which I don't want to do.

saintdrm
07/30/2016, 07:18 PM
Thanks for the info.

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Timfish
07/30/2016, 07:50 PM
Below are videos of several of my systems. None of them use skimmers. For a very long time I did not test but have been testing more frequently to try to help figure out why corals grow well in conditions that for decades have been decried as detrimental. I would encourage everyone to get Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" It is very good introduction to the coral holobiont and the biological warfare being conducted between algae and corals. One of the more fascinating pieces of research I've stumbled across shows algae release dissolved organic carbon (DOC) that promotes heterotrophic ("oxygen reducing") microbes and corals release dissolved organic carbon (DOC) that promotes autotrophic ("oxygen enriching") microbes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445

http://youtu.be/KhcRz50cV0s

http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg

http://youtu.be/-eCQSVdqBQA

Subsea
07/31/2016, 10:03 PM
Below are videos of several of my systems. None of them use skimmers. For a very long time I did not test but have been testing more frequently to try to help figure out why corals grow well in conditions that for decades have been decried as detrimental. I would encourage everyone to get Rohwer's "Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" It is very good introduction to the coral holobiont and the biological warfare being conducted between algae and corals. One of the more fascinating pieces of research I've stumbled across shows algae release dissolved organic carbon (DOC) that promotes heterotrophic ("oxygen reducing") microbes and corals release dissolved organic carbon (DOC) that promotes autotrophic ("oxygen enriching") microbes: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23882445

http://youtu.be/KhcRz50cV0s

http://youtu.be/_Uf5IyXvajg

http://youtu.be/-eCQSVdqBQA

When you speak about the differrent DOC produced by coral & macro, with oxygen producing and oxygen reducing bacteria, I have two questions.

Do corals eat both type of bacteria.

The second question has to do with dissolved oxygen in our reef tanks. With macro lagoons, I would expect bacteria to be skewed to oxygen reducing bacteria. During the night time, photosynthetic macros consume oxygen and give off carbon dioxide, natures way to carbon doses. In this enviroment, I would expect low oxygen and low PH. I have always wondered about the wisdom on forcing pH to remain constant in our reef tanks during lights out for coral. I expect that the pH drops in the ocean as well. The abounding phytoplankton in the top layer of the ocean is the carbon exchange mechanism between athmosphere and ocean.

2_zoa
08/06/2016, 11:44 PM
Ok, Timfish. Here in a different thread. The info gets posted again. So, help me understand what I'm missing from the bigger picture.

The abstract reads,
" In situ mesocosm experiments using custom-made benthic chambers placed over different types of benthic communities exhibited identical trends to those found in incubation experiments"
So, in my opinion this tells me that "we" know how to recreate a specific event. Which we as humans do all the time. PH.D. Or whatever, or not. We took a reading of a happening.....went to a lab and recreated it. Or.....a basic understanding of what was observed, came about, and then a test was setup. The result was documented and then those results and test methods were modified. Tents were built and were placed on the ocean floor, readings were then taken. Those readings were close enough to be considered the same. Having not read the book this is my hypothesis of how things went. Simplified that is. 15 years is a long time. Lab work or tents,(in this case) is to much human involvement for me to believe the results or test data.


Then it reads,
"Our results highlight the variability of the influence of different benthic primary producers on microbial metabolism in reef ecosystems and the potential implications for energy transfer to higher trophic levels during shifts from coral to algal dominance on reefs."
Variability.....that's pretty vague. In my opinion anyway. So, some things "may" or may not influence the bacterial community. Yet, the "energy" (life, in my opinion) transfers to a higher trophic level as the surrounding areas shift from a more coral dominate, to a more algal dominate zone..........So, if there is more coral present. Then the planktonic life is lessened. However, when the "bad algae" grows (the algae that's not confined within coral tissue) planktonic life abounds (which means more poop/more waste)......and why not? There's plenty to eat now. Why not move in? Things get more dirty. Slowly shifting to a more bacterial based environment. Living on the sugars produced by the algae. Thus the ebb and flow of life.

Your videos show this very "thing" in action. One tank is full of soft coral. Looks like the same one everywhere in the vid. The other tank is loaded with Xenia. Both of which prefer a high level of nutrients in the water. Xenia has been grown in sumps for a long time as a means of nutrient export.

Please understand, I'm not trying to be an a$$. I am trying to understand what and why this keeps coming up as good info. It and your examples go hand in hand. More algae, the more trophic a system is. Be it in coral or a big ball of macro.

Again, I'm not being rude. My mind works in absolutes. It's black or its white. Just like this text. If info is going to be touted as "truth" then it best not have hoes in it. Everyone takes in info deferently. That perception becomes a reality. Those different realities causes us to seek more information and push the boundaries. I believe it is often the uneducated that pushes said boundaries. Simply because they don't know where the boundaries are supposed to be.

NAClFiSHy
08/07/2016, 06:25 PM
super cool.

HefeWeizen
09/08/2016, 03:58 PM
The original miracle mud.

I too have no skimmer. I use GAC, a refuge, and an ATS. I do 6-12 gallon water change once a month on my 125. My nitrates stay below 10 most times. I haven't tested for PO4 in over a year. My tank looks better than it ever has.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b145/ANEMONEBUFF/F2F9512D-08D1-4361-92B9-F813CAA028C3.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/ANEMONEBUFF/media/F2F9512D-08D1-4361-92B9-F813CAA028C3.jpg.html)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b145/ANEMONEBUFF/1E1F95C3-0B58-4726-98E7-DB6585B07821.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/ANEMONEBUFF/media/1E1F95C3-0B58-4726-98E7-DB6585B07821.jpg.html)