Calcium Chloride Source

[karimwassef]

Has anyone used this product?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0115C7PEK

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zTjZ1nUCL.jpg

[karimwassef]

since I'm asking, here's what I found and plan to use... anyone have any feedback on these sources?

Calcium Chloride:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00J9SDUSS
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51WlNCKYZOL.jpg

Sodium Bicarbonate:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SKVZIQ
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81DZt2XnpDL._SY679_.jpg

Magnesium Sulfate:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0091WDQS6
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71-9Th0KXGL._SY679_.jpg

Magnesium Chloride:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LW71SR4
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81Cb-I0zwiL._SX522_.jpg

[bertoni]

Those probably all are fine. The DowFlake has been tested in its older formulation, and the Arm & Hammer and epsom salt are food grade and USP, respectively. These three were recommended when the DIY recipes were first published.

[karimwassef]

Sure - the sources are not always the same. The Epsom salts from the San Francisco Bath Company claim 100% purity, but are they? Has anyone bought this particular brand?

how about the Mg Chloride?

[bertoni]

There are so many brands, or labels, at least, that I can't keep track of them. I haven't seen that epsom salt product before, but it's probably a relabeling from a large manufacturer.

[Ron Reefman]

Kaarim, I have been using the 'new' Dow Flake since it first came out about 4 or 5 years ago and I've had no issues with Ca. The Epsom Salt is also the same one I use. I get MagFlake (similar to Dowflake) for Magnesium chloride. And I use soda ash from a local pool supply for alk.

Chemistry has not been an issue for me and my 180g used to be 75% sps and 25% lps. But a week ago the seam between the back glass and the bottom of the tank blew out a 1" chunk of silicone and leaked at 30 gph until it was empty! Luck for me it happened at 5am on Saturday and I was home, so only about 40 gallons made it to the floor. I just hope I can keep everybody alive until my new CadLight Artisan 125 gets delivered and cycled!

Good luck.

[karimwassef]

Wow Ron - sorry to hear that. Good luck getting it back up and running.

Where do you get MagFlake from?

I'm going with RHF formula #2 so I don't think I need soda ash.

[C.Eymann]

Ive used prestone driveway heat in the past with no problems.

[karimwassef]

That's a good deal, but Prestone isn't a popular brand in TX, so I don't think I can get it down here.

[Paul Carpenter]

Have used it for several years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[karimwassef]

Have used it for several years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

which?

[karimwassef]

Hmm I went with Dowflake, but didn't notice the purity until now. 83-87%?

That seems pretty dirty to me?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg"/></a>

[karimwassef]

Randy identifies it as 77%-80% in his article

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/

The heat product claims 96%. Is it just because it's anhydrous? Is it purer?

[bertoni]

The Prestone is anhydrous. The Dow Flake has a number of compounds in it. This article has more data:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/3/chemistry

[karimwassef]

Has anyone used this product?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0115C7PEK

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zTjZ1nUCL.jpg

This is what I meant by "heat" ... Also anhydrous?

[karimwassef]

Great article! Can't believe I missed it

[bertoni]

Anything that says "heat" probably will be (or should be) anhydrous. Hydrated calcium chloride doesn't produce as much heat when mixed with water.

[Ron Reefman]

Wow Ron - sorry to hear that. Good luck getting it back up and running.

Where do you get MagFlake from?

I'm going with RHF formula #2 so I don't think I need soda ash.

Karim, sorry for the slow reply, things have been a bit hectic around here between doing repairs to the house from the water, setting up for the new tank, a CadLight Artisan 125g, now due for delivery on Aug 15, keeping all the corals and fish alive in smaller tanks and getting rid of old aquarium stuff! Glad I have a chainsaw to take care of the stand. It was 11' long and the top rails were two 2x8 that were glued and screwed together. The thing weighed a ton! It would have taken 3 times longer with a circular saw!

I get my Dow and Mag from a local tennis supply outfit that sells stuff to people with tennis courts. They use Dow and Mag to keep down the dust on clay tennis courts. My local guy doesn't have a website but the outfit I used before was 10-S Supply in Pompano Beach, FL.

http://www.10-s.com/?search=calcium%20chloride

[karimwassef]

Tennis supply? I never would have thought of that... Thanks

[Snarkys]

Fair heads up, we sell this stuff so some people might think my opinion is biased and it might be, but I would like to share some things I found as a hobbyist when I was looking for DIY chems. I think every one of us wants to save a buck, and it is just cool/fun to skip the fish label and use the chems from their source. There are tons of safe ways to do that, but I don't think it is wise to assume any bucket of ice melter out there is suitable for a multi-thousand dollar reef tank. In some ways, I think we all have done each other a disservice with the general presumption that all of this stuff is safe. Especially when we share it with newer reefers who generally just take our word for it and haven't sharpened their skills at identifying what caused an issue they may run into.

The hard part about all this is almost none of these products are going to be so toxic that they instantly kill everything in the tank, so I guess I wouldn't worry about that. The concern comes in that we are adding this chemical and presumably some amount of impurities every day for years, so the toxicity concerns are likely much further down the road. Quicker if the water change schedule is less than ideal which is pretty common : ) The reality behind that is when an issue does show up a year from now almost no one would blame an additive they feel they have been dosing safely for a year(s).

So it's just about sourcing and selecting the right one where this isn't an issue to the best of our knowledge. I think the best method for the general hobbyist is just using the same brand material that a reefer they trust has been using for years, has similar maintenance habits (water changes/contaminant export) and producing the type of success you would like to emulate. This is best if it is someone you know in person but can easily just be a specific person on a forum who is very open with their successes and failures and documents it publicly. IMHO This is just one of the best ways to make a decision. Very close to that specific brands the community has generally adopted and there appears to be a general perception they are safe. The only caution here is it's pretty rare someone will be able to identify a chemical like this is the source of their issue after a year of using it and even more rare that a critical mass of users would ID that and be confident enough to share it publicly.

Outside of that if we are just selecting bags of material off the shelf we have to be ok with the fact that our tanks are going to be the guinea pigs on this one and do a risk versus reward analysis. That said, there are some ways to significantly reduce this risk. Most of this generally revolves around an understanding of the intended purpose for the material and the standards behind not just the production of that material but also the facility and equipment.

Couple examples. Arm and Hammer washing soda says 100% sodium carbonate on the box which led many of us to believe it might be a suitable option as a DIY material. However, when you open the box there is an unmistakeable odor of perfumed soap. It's possible that they add this because of it's intended use but more likely because it is produced and packaged using the same equipment and lines as their boxed laundry soaps and there isn't a significant business reason to methodically completely clean them between runs. In either case, most of us would not want to use a material that smells like soap.

Similar issue with calcium chloride. It's impossible to really gauge what source material and production process they are using so that's just a gamble but the most common source of impurity with the tech and ungraded material designed for use as ice melter is the production line itself and the rust it produces. Fact is this stuff is designed to be thrown on the ground and it only needs to be of high enough quality for that intended purpose, anything beyond that is a waste of money and profits for the company. This is one of those things pretty much anyone can do a basic test for. Just mix up a fairly concentrated solution of like 8 cups of calcium chloride in a gallon of RO/DI water and let it settle out for 24 hours. Even though some of these ice melters look white they will give the water a red tint or even a bunch of impurities at the bottom you can make your own decision about.

This is where the food grade and higher component comes in. Now none of these are guaranteed safe either but there are some pretty strict standards for human consumption for both the material as well as the facility and production equipment the material is produced with. The chances it was produced on a rusty production line or the line is allowed to be contaminated from the previous material run is pretty low. Just because these grades have some set of higher level standards that are monitored and certified for drastically increases the chances you will be successful using them.

Finding affordable food or USP graded sodium bicarbonate, and magnesium sulfate is pretty easy because there are large consumer uses for these products. Calcium chloride, magnesium chloride can be more difficult. I would personally do a google search for a chemical distributor in your area and call them up. They should be able to put you in touch with someone in your area they supply that grade of material to. Magnesium chloride is going to be the most difficult to source in a food or USP grade; it's also the one which tends to have the most issues with impurities just because of wide array of source materials, production methods and it' common end use which is typically ice melter. I would personally feel safe using the ice melter material that is clearly stated it comes from the dead sea and doesn't have a ton of visual impurities in it. Outside of that, I don't think the $1 a month in savings is worth the effort or risk for myself or most reefers.

Help this was of some help to anyone looking to ID which products are safe for their tank and how to find them.

[Snarkys]

Hmm I went with Dowflake, but didn't notice the purity until now. 83-87%?

That seems pretty dirty to me?

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-08/EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EFB9E20C-89D0-49C0-8161-94EFB5796CB9_zpsrngcaupi.jpg"/></a>

The impurity those percentages represent is largely just water content. I wouldn't get too wrapped up in that number because it frequently doesn't have any real value concerning quality

[C.Eymann]

That's a good deal, but Prestone isn't a popular brand in TX, so I don't think I can get it down here.

Try an automotive parts store, auto zone in my area has it year round, can't imagine the availability of the product would vary area to area with such a chain. Plus I hail from KC so not too far from Tejas.

[karimwassef]

Snarky - I like BRS, but I have a very large tank. At $85 a bucket x 4 buckets (CaCl2, MgCl, Na2CO3, MgS), I'm looking at $340 each time I order. I expect to need to do this twice a year... That's a lot of $ for powders where the real cost is substantially lower.

I'm all for businesses making margin, but compare that to these products at ~$160 combined. That's over $300 in savings a year. That's not insignificant.

When I go to a larger thank that's 3x, I would be looking at $1000 a year in savings...

For small quantities or tanks where one order can last a decade, I can agree with you. But at large scale, your value proposition breaks.

Also, if we never did water changes, the sources may be critical, but I do 100gal water changes monthly.... Sometimes more frequently. If there is a buildup of elements, it should be diluted enough to be a non-issue.

Great FUD though :)

[Snarkys]

Snarky - I like BRS, but I have a very large tank. At $85 a bucket x 4 buckets (CaCl2, MgCl, Na2CO3, MgS), I'm looking at $340 each time I order. I expect to need to do this twice a year... That's a lot of $ for powders where the real cost is substantially lower.

I'm all for businesses making margin, but compare that to these products at ~$160 combined. That's over $300 in savings a year. That's not insignificant.

When I go to a larger thank that's 3x, I would be looking at $1000 a year in savings...

For small quantities or tanks where one order can last a decade, I can agree with you. But at large scale, your value proposition breaks.

Also, if we never did water changes, the sources may be critical, but I do 100gal water changes monthly.... Sometimes more frequently. If there is a buildup of elements, it should be diluted enough to be a non-issue.

Great FUD though :)

I completely understand and appreciate the kind words. I guess my intent was more to help reefers ID the right DIY materials rather than deter anyone from using them. Every time I see someone post a bucket of ebay ice melter from China I cringe. There are absolutely ways to save some cash and protect the tank at the same time. I think a call to almost any chemical distributor in any market can make that happen, at least for a majority of the chemicals we are talking about. Doesn't have to be all or nothing or DIY at all costs. If you find 4 suitable DIY options but have difficulty with the last one I would still call that a huge win : )

For what it is worth the evaluation of the two materials is likely accurate on price but comparing USP calcium/magnesium chloride with ice melter just isn't the same thing. The USP's primary purpose is to be injected into the human body for dialysis and has standards that meet the end use requirements. The other one is thrown on the ground to control dust and meets those standards. That doesn't mean that it doesn't meet reefer standards as well just that we shouldn't assume every bucket out there is ok and lowest possible cost is the primary determining factor for selecting the right chemical for the tank.

It often seems the conversation ends up chasing either the best available product or the lowest cost out there. I think most DIY's are probably best served with a hybrid of those two needs. The solution that meets that goal just requires a couple more phone calls and just a handful more dollars but might even be lower cost in some cases.

[karimwassef]

That risk mitigation is exactly why I started this thread. I wanted to hear from other reefers who had used these particular vendors and had positive experiences.

[Snarkys]

That risk mitigation is exactly why I started this thread. I wanted to hear from other reefers who had used these particular vendors and had positive experiences.

Fair and true : )

[Ron Reefman]

I think BRS is a great company, and for those who want to use really safe and pure chemicals for their tanks, it's available.

However, after using BRS Ca, alk and Mg for years on my tank, I switched to all DIY chemicals and have been using them for over 5 years. I had 600+ gallons of saltwater in my house, so I used a lot of Ca and alk. And I saved about 75% of the cost of BRS chemicals during that time. My corals continued to grow healthy, colorful and quickly. Oh, and in my 400g mixed reef system I averaged about a 25g water change every 2 or 3 months. And I never had any issues with water chemistry.

I think if BRS had made a simple comment and/or statement instead of a sermon about chemicals used in aquariums, I'd have said OK and let it go. It's their opinion. But the preachy, over the top post in defence of using overpriced USP graded chemicals was a bit too self serving and fear mongering in my humble opinion.

But like I said in the very first sentence, for those who want to use pure chemicals and pay the price, I have no issue with you. I just find having the big company who sells them doing a post spreading fear of contamination to be a bit too self serving.

[Snarkys]

I think if BRS had made a simple comment and/or statement instead of a sermon about chemicals used in aquariums, I'd have said OK and let it go. It's their opinion. But the preachy, over the top post in defence of using overpriced USP graded chemicals was a bit too self serving and fear mongering in my humble opinion.

But like I said in the very first sentence, for those who want to use pure chemicals and pay the price, I have no issue with you. I just find having the big company who sells them doing a post spreading fear of contamination to be a bit too self serving.

The moment I started typing this thread, I know I was going to put my foot in my mouth. I am a DIY user at heart, originally ran my tanks on dow flake and dead sea mag flake but fortunate enough to have had a chance to test and talk to a good portion of the world's suppliers about their manufacturing practices. I wish there were a way to share these experiences without it coming across as FUD.

I totally get why it would come across that way because FUD is the core of how the world advertises. I'm going to have to work on how I share information like this in the future so it comes across as intended which is a desire to be helpful. It is a difficult line to walk, and it might be best if I just keep my experiences to myself on delicate topics like this one. Best part of my job is the ability to research and share information with others and value the opportunity to do that. Thanks : )

Thanks for the feedback. It's appreciated and not lost on me.

[karimwassef]

To be fair, you can't be too upset at a company that sells high purity stuff sharing the potential risks in using industrial grade alternatives. That's kind of their job :)

If I had the $, I wouldn't take any risk either. Everyone needs to make their own risk assessment along the continuum of low risk (high $) and high risk (low $). I think Snarky was just identifying one end of that continuum.

Ok. So I got all the material, including both sources of CaCl2 and MgCl2. I'll share any findings. :)

[Ron Reefman]

Ryan, thanks for that last post. I goes a long way toward making you look less like a corporate suit. Seriously I appreciate where you are coming from better now than after your big post (sermon-LOL).

But your point about how these chemicals are made and how pure they are (or are not) isn't really the issue for me. I understand how pure the BRS chemicals are and that's great if you are worried about having a perfect tank. But after 6+ years of Dowflake, swimming pool soda ash, Mag Flake and bulk Epsom salt, the purity argument just doesn't do much for me. It's like scare tactics or fear mongering. "What if one of the impurities kills everything in your tank?" When is the last time any of us have heard of that really happening? And even if it did, one or two out of how many users? There are a lot of us here using DIY chemicals on big systems and not having issues.

Marketing strategy: Maybe BRS should look into a second line of chemicals that are less expensive but still better than Dowflake or pool supply soda ash?

[Snarkys]

Thanks, Ron.

I obviously completely failed in what I was trying to get across. Short and sweet the vantage point I was really trying to share was any old chemical on eBay or laundry additive labeled "100% anything shouldn't automatically be assumed safe. One bag isn't as good as the next. So if a reefer has a hard time locating one of the widely trusted sources, like the ones you are using, one of the best ways to make sure you are not buying total garbage is just asking for food grade from a chemical distributor in your area. Might even be cheaper than the generic bucket from the auto parts store or unknown supplier on ebay or amazon.

Think that sums it up without the diatribe : )

BTW we have considered identifying and offering a lower grade material that is suitable for reefing. Something similar to what is in most retail reef products but shipping 50-pound bags around the country via UPS is so expensive there will always be really significant savings sourcing it locally. Never say never, though : )

[Ron Reefman]

Ryan, how about having that lower grade product repackaged into something like the 1 gallon plastic bottles you use already?

I have fellow club members who come to my house with your bottles and get Ca, alk and Mg from me. They don't have big tanks so they don't need 50 pound bags. And a 1 gallon BRS bottle holds about 7 pounds of Dowflake that costs me $3 vs the $20 BRS calcium chloride costs. That's a huge difference.

[Snarkys]

Ryan, how about having that lower grade product repackaged into something like the 1 gallon plastic bottles you use already?

I have fellow club members who come to my house with your bottles and get Ca, alk and Mg from me. They don't have big tanks so they don't need 50 pound bags. And a 1 gallon BRS bottle holds about 7 pounds of Dowflake that costs me $3 vs the $20 BRS calcium chloride costs. That's a huge difference.

It's funny how things evolve. Only a handful of people have followed us long enough to know but BRS is the evolution of that type of thing. We had a dead sea mag flake distributor and easy access to dow flake here in Minneapolis and most of us in the club would do the same thing, buy a bag and share it. The national forums were lit up about the difficulty finding a source of dead sea mag flake so a buddy of mine and I thought we would pack it up and ship it for around $10-12 a gallon @ twopartsolution.com. (https://web.archive.org/web/20070207080110/http://www.twopartsolution.com/) This seemed like a fair deal for everyone after you consider packaging, space and our personal time spent getting it ready and shipping it. A decent hybrid solution for those who didn't want to pay $20 for a cup of super turbo reef calcium and didn't want to spend time driving all over searching for the two known safe brands. However, back then there was no free shipping. We shipped in a flat rate usps box which was $8 a box and could hold two gallons. So it was about the same cost then as it is now.

In relation to your question and a mid grade today. When the material is purchased in large quantity the gallon of chems themselves probably cost ~$1-2 for ungraded bulk material ~$3-4 for something of reasonable, consistent quality. Add in a few bucks for labor, packaging, storage space, equipment, $3-7 in shipping and a fair mark up and we are probably closer to $15. Which is pretty far from $3 and I just don't think a lot of people are going to see much value in a lower quality option that is only a handful of dollars cheaper. It might be possible with 50# bags where there is limited labor, no packaging and shipping costs are proportionally lower but 50#'s is decades worth for most people. Likely would still be 3x the $3 you are paying now. So it is possible but I think the DIY community has better options :)