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karimwassef
08/07/2016, 03:12 PM
I posted in another thread, but I didn't want to intrude there, so I'm starting a new thread...

ok. So I made a settling tank with a large rubbermaid container. I didn't really plan to, it was a bit of an accidental discovery really.

I set up an aux tank connected to my DT. The inlet just happened to push water in a loop around the edge of the tank and the rubbermaid shape forced the water into a circulating loop. The return just happened to be an overflow pipe in the middle.

Maybe subconsciously this thread was influencing me, but all these elements of a settling tank made their way into this aux tank.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/75218DD0-236D-438D-85FC-854D98F67A18_zpskd2n3cyz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/75218DD0-236D-438D-85FC-854D98F67A18_zpskd2n3cyz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 75218DD0-236D-438D-85FC-854D98F67A18_zpskd2n3cyz.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/021AEE2E-7E2B-403B-914C-55264496BC42_zpspc04jy36.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/021AEE2E-7E2B-403B-914C-55264496BC42_zpspc04jy36.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 021AEE2E-7E2B-403B-914C-55264496BC42_zpspc04jy36.jpg"/></a>

Of course it's under CFL for 18hrs, so a little cyano built up...

I cleaned it up and here is what it looks like a couple of days later:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/16FE7539-933F-4B70-ACF5-401C559F592E_zpskaoi49lx.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/16FE7539-933F-4B70-ACF5-401C559F592E_zpskaoi49lx.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 16FE7539-933F-4B70-ACF5-401C559F592E_zpskaoi49lx.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/74DA92BC-7BD1-4AC0-8A52-266792FCC414_zpsxqa7g2dv.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/74DA92BC-7BD1-4AC0-8A52-266792FCC414_zpsxqa7g2dv.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 74DA92BC-7BD1-4AC0-8A52-266792FCC414_zpsxqa7g2dv.jpg"/></a>

so - it works and works very well at that.

So I think a settling tank won't reduce nutrients. It removes detritus and particulates. But wouldn't that effectively remove a food source without improving water quality?

Is a settling tank GOOD or BAD?

2_zoa
08/07/2016, 11:30 PM
I say good.
Unless you don't remove any of the stuff that accumulates in it. My next setup will have a type of settling tank in the system.

JonezNReef
08/08/2016, 04:02 PM
I think this could be a good add to a larger system if it was fed directly from the DT. It could take the place of using filter socks or other forms of mechanical filtration without the loss of many pods and other micro life. Only way I could see it being bad is if it was left unattended for too long a period and it filled up with detritus.

karimwassef
08/08/2016, 06:57 PM
There's an opposing theory that says detritus is good for a tank and creates a natural food source for pods and worms... And maybe even coral.

ca1ore
08/09/2016, 09:35 AM
ISo I think a settling tank won't reduce nutrients.

Why would you think that? Similar to a filter sock, no? You need to be removing detritus from the system before it has fully broken down - just like with a sock. Personally, I prefer the settling trap (I use one on my current system?). I used to worry about not siphoning out micro-fauna, but now i don't. So, GOOD from my perspective.

JonezNReef
08/09/2016, 12:42 PM
There's an opposing theory that says detritus is good for a tank and creates a natural food source for pods and worms... And maybe even coral.

I agree that it could be a good thing which is another reason I don't use filter socks. Thats one of the benefits I think a settling tank could have is it could take out some of the larger detritus and debris while letting some still pass

lifeoffaith
08/09/2016, 01:54 PM
This could be doable for larger debris on a bare bottom tank with a bottom drain plumbed into a settling tank. Realistically though, you'd need the tank to have the right flow to direct detritus into the bottom drain. At least this is how a settling tank from bottom drain on a Koi pond works. The have to be flushed from time to time too.

karimwassef
08/09/2016, 02:37 PM
It depends on your view of detritus.

If detritus is just waste that you should remove before it turns into excess nutrients, then settling it out and removing it would be good.

If detritus is a key component of the living reef and it kickstarts a second cycle of life that feeds the tank, then removing it is bad.

You may also want to look at the location and form that detritus takes... Detritus that gets packed between rocks or in the sand or the dirty corners without waterflow may turn into excess nutrients. But the same detritus in a slow flow settling tank bottom may be a viable environment for life...

If you've ever swam in a shallow sequestered lagoon (as I have), and felt the silt (instead of sand) there, you would notice the abundance of life that preferentially chooses that environment ...

Subsea
08/10/2016, 08:20 PM
It depends on your view of detritus.

If detritus is just waste that you should remove before it turns into excess nutrients, then settling it out and removing it would be good.

If detritus is a key component of the living reef and it kickstarts a second cycle of life that feeds the tank, then removing it is bad.

You may also want to look at the location and form that detritus takes... Detritus that gets packed between rocks or in the sand or the dirty corners without waterflow may turn into excess nutrients. But the same detritus in a slow flow settling tank bottom may be a viable environment for life...

If you've ever swam in a shallow sequestered lagoon (as I have), and felt the silt (instead of sand) there, you would notice the abundance of life that preferentially chooses that environment ...


This is the best descriptive analogy that I have heard. I view detritus as the food for all the worms. This becomes nutrient recycling by feeding filter feeders.

karimwassef
08/11/2016, 06:05 PM
Looking at the accumulation in the settling tank, there is clear evidence of active worms and pods

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg"/></a>

At least that's what I think I'm looking at

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg"/></a>

Subsea
08/12/2016, 09:47 AM
Looking at the accumulation in the settling tank, there is clear evidence of active worms and pods

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 56FB9157-68D8-49EE-9F71-58DB662B93EC_zpsdtm4g6mj.jpg"/></a>

At least that's what I think I'm looking at

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1763E2BE-2537-45EB-8AAF-57105D8C8690_zpshbc2zl5b.jpg"/></a>


This is an awesome settleling basin and refugium. What is in your display tank?

karimwassef
08/12/2016, 01:41 PM
Mixed SPS, LPS, and softies.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg"/></a>

My next tank is in the planning and it's a greenhouse too! Only 1500gal though :)

starkii
08/13/2016, 05:07 AM
Isn't this working on a similar principle to a cryptic zone (when left to its own devices rather than regularly cleaned) albeit with some light in your case. Detritus isn't seen as a problem, rather a benefit in CZs.

karimwassef
08/13/2016, 07:17 AM
That may be the example of how it's use can be good. I think that detritus is good for some organisms but not all. So a settling filter may create good conditions for some of these. Under light though, cyano may claim the space.

Subsea
08/14/2016, 06:48 AM
Mixed SPS, LPS, and softies.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 9A93C7DE-BEE0-412F-8C46-3F400E969A52_zpsvo0rhhth.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo CFBDC627-D16C-43BF-9FE3-3E57DDCC6CC6_zpsfcyk1ugi.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo F0C1A915-9D3A-410E-B949-A041C1611A54_zpsfsev526u.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EF510918-0982-485D-AAFB-2E7B99CC5886_zpsnkfuqhwl.jpg"/></a>

My next tank is in the planning and it's a greenhouse too! Only 1500gal though :)

Absolutely gorgeous.

When you say, it's a greenhouse too. What tank are you referring too? I noted that you live in Dallas. How do you keep things cool in this summer heat?

karimwassef
08/14/2016, 01:40 PM
My future design in planned to be in a sunroom/greenhouse

The type of glass is important because there's a very small subset that reflects IR and allows UV in at a reasonable balance. There are also films and coatings that help. I have a whole thread on it somewhere here.

I plan to use a combination of AC/venting/fans and chillers. I had plans for an underground geothermal, but that's heavily dependent on many other factors.

But all the savings I'll get not pumping out MegaWatts of light (I prefer metal halide), I'll pay about the same in cooling bills :)

JonezNReef
08/15/2016, 12:35 PM
Just a thought...
You could tweak the setting tank idea and make it a cryptic zone also. You could take what every it is you would be using as a settling tank and place live rock in the center of it (like a tower of rock) leaving the outside area for water to flow freely around the rock. Then just put a lid on it to block out light. This would give plenty of room for critters that like to eat the settled debris a place to live with plenty of access to this food source. And if you felt that it had too much debris after an extended period you could drain out some of the debris without disturbing your cryptic creatures too much.

karimwassef
08/15/2016, 01:18 PM
for my new tank - yes.

my current tank uses that tank as a quarantine in waiting. Maybe I'll set it up without light until I need it, then turn the lights on then.

JonezNReef
08/15/2016, 01:45 PM
Could be interesting to say the least. I would like to incorporate this idea into my next system as well.

karimwassef
08/15/2016, 10:03 PM
It's in my sunroom reef sump plans already. I'll share in both threads.

CleanReef
08/19/2016, 11:33 AM
really amazing system

Subsea
08/19/2016, 04:27 PM
My future design in planned to be in a sunroom/greenhouse

The type of glass is important because there's a very small subset that reflects IR and allows UV in at a reasonable balance. There are also films and coatings that help. I have a whole thread on it somewhere here.

I plan to use a combination of AC/venting/fans and chillers. I had plans for an underground geothermal, but that's heavily dependent on many other factors.

But all the savings I'll get not pumping out MegaWatts of light (I prefer metal halide), I'll pay about the same in cooling bills :)


As an engineer, I get specific with things. On my greenhouse growout, I used 150G Rubbermade tanks for mono culture of specific macros. These tanks were 3' tall but could not stand up to 105 degree days in August. I coupled these growout tanks with the Big Tank (20' by 12' by 4' deep). The Big Tank provided thermal stability and I was able to maintain 80 degree temperature during 100 degree days. To accomplish this, I evaporated in excess of 100G each day. That equates to 100G multiplied by 8.4 lbs/G multiplied by 1000 BTU/lb or
840,000 BTU cooling. That would take a 7 ton AC about 10 hours to accomplish.

Just something for you to think about.

karimwassef
08/19/2016, 06:49 PM
I agree. I evaporate 20gpd on my current 700gallon system ~ 3% and I need it to keep my tank under 85F on 105F days.

We should move this to my new tank thread here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2589632&page=4

but I was looking at using swamp cooling for the greenhouse.
http://www.jlgreenhousesupplies.com/assets/images/products/p1%20cooling%20pad%20ventilation%20fan%20cooling%20system%20transverse%20way.jpg

This is just to cool the inlet air since I really want fresh air except for the winter months.

Fredfish
08/21/2016, 05:48 PM
...

If you've ever swam in a shallow sequestered lagoon (as I have), and felt the silt (instead of sand) there, you would notice the abundance of life that preferentially chooses that environment ...
Isn't that pretty much what a miracle mud filter is?

karimwassef
08/21/2016, 10:29 PM
That's a touchy one. MM has strong advocates and detractors, but I don't think it's the same as soft detritus or a silt bottom.

One element of MM is that it effectively doses the tank constantly with elements released from the mud. That's one reason it needs to be replenished. Whether its composition has food for fauna, I don't know.
Its consistency is soft like silt, but the composition is different.

Maybe a MM floor in a settling tank would feed the fauna in the MM?

JonezNReef
08/22/2016, 08:04 AM
Interesting thought... MM in a removable container (so it can be replaced if needed)in the bottom of the settling tank and allow detritus to settle on it to feed the fauna. Could be better than having LR in the settling tank and the fauna would still have somewhere to live in the settling tank.

karimwassef
08/22/2016, 11:03 AM
The Miracle Mud Settling Tank Reactor (MMSTR)?

JonezNReef
08/22/2016, 12:01 PM
Lol:lmao::lol:

karimwassef
08/22/2016, 12:27 PM
The MuMSTR monster

Subsea
08/22/2016, 05:12 PM
Miracle Mud is high in iron. In my 10 year old 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with 30G EcoSystem mud filter on bottom, I never replaced mud. I add iron regularly in dosing and with partial water changes.

karimwassef
08/22/2016, 07:07 PM
Hmmm... That's the second time someone here has mentioned using iron dosing. The first was in reference to not having to do water changes at all and using iron to precipitate out the phosphates.

What do you think iron is doing in your system?

Do you think MM is basically a giant slow GFO reactor?

Pandagobyguy
08/23/2016, 08:12 AM
Unfortunately i dont quite understand the function of iron chemically but in basic marine bio courses we are shown huge bumps in biomass when iron is being deposited in the ocean (for example of the northwest coast of africa). Im sure someone here understands the chemistry but it does seem to indicate that iron is a limiting nutrient in the natural ocean system.

P.s. i dont actually dose iron and i dont have MM. Just my $0.02

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Pandagobyguy
08/23/2016, 08:17 AM
Also an intresting experiment was performed (illegally) by a billionaire named george russ. He dosed some bay in canada with iron. I believe it was all in an effort to combat climate change (more iron= more bio mass= less co2)
So i definitely do think there is some legitimacy to dosing iron. I just dont have specifics.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Subsea
08/23/2016, 12:37 PM
Hmmm... That's the second time someone here has mentioned using iron dosing. The first was in reference to not having to do water changes at all and using iron to precipitate out the phosphates.

What do you think iron is doing in your system?

Do you think MM is basically a giant slow GFO reactor?


All organic life forms need iron. Iron uptake by marine algae is well documented. As well as iron uptake by bacteria.

My opinion of miracle mud is that it provides a matrix to grow worms and things. Yes, it would act as an iron reactor. There are several iron substrates manufactured by SeaChem for use in fresh water systems that work well for me. As a system tool, the Eco system mud filter refugium feed the tank by processing nutrients thru complex food webs.

karimwassef
08/23/2016, 01:05 PM
Agree on the food webs and fauna.
Agree on the uptake by algae and some bacteria.

Not sure how it helps clean the water beyond that.

Subsea
08/23/2016, 02:27 PM
What does clean the water mean to you?

If I wanted to polish off the water for clarity because of DOC, I would use activated carbon.

If I wanted to polish off the water because of bacteria or phyto bloom, then I would use UV. as required and not continuously.

karimwassef
08/23/2016, 02:29 PM
Actively precipitate phosphates to close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas.

Subsea
08/23/2016, 02:39 PM
I am fairly convinced that water should not be polished excessively. I think that water carries nutrients to hungry mouths.

Fredfish
08/23/2016, 08:02 PM
That's a touchy one. MM has strong advocates and detractors, but I don't think it's the same as soft detritus or a silt bottom.

One element of MM is that it effectively doses the tank constantly with elements released from the mud. That's one reason it needs to be replenished. Whether its composition has food for fauna, I don't know.
Its consistency is soft like silt, but the composition is different.

Maybe a MM floor in a settling tank would feed the fauna in the MM?
I know its not the same chemically, but my impression is that, as subsea says, provides the right environment for critters that occupy that niche in nature.

From Schimek's writings, particle size is critical for sand (mud) beds.

karimwassef
08/24/2016, 02:03 PM
yes. I think MM provides different benefits.. dosing missing elements + creating a hospitable environment for fauna + precipitating phosphates + neutralizing nitrates + creating a food supply in the form for fauna plankton.

combining it with a detritus capturing settling tank may be a way to actively feed the machine

Fredfish
08/24/2016, 04:42 PM
Though there is only anecdotal evidence, I think you are right.

Subsea. You mentioned in your other thread that you have never bought Miracle Mud, but you run a filter. Did you DIY the mud portion? If so, what ingredients did you use?

Living in the middle of a continent, it's rather hard for me to just go grab some mud from the seashore.

Subsea
08/30/2016, 02:34 PM
Though there is only anecdotal evidence, I think you are right.

Subsea. You mentioned in your other thread that you have never bought Miracle Mud, but you run a filter. Did you DIY the mud portion? If so, what ingredients did you use?

Living in the middle of a continent, it's rather hard for me to just go grab some mud from the seashore.


I purchased a mature 75G tank with an 30G ecosystem mud filter. I operated the system for ten years with zero mud replacement. During those ten years detritus accumulated with the depth increasing from 3/4" to 1"+. The mud felt spongy to the touch and was crawling with worms. Early this summer, because of an infestation of red planaria, I removed refugium from system. Everything was bleached and mud was thrown away. There are several reputable options including FORM (funky old reef mud). I also included a fresh water substrate from Seachem that is high in iron. Iron is vital to bacteria, macro and coral.

Subsea
08/30/2016, 02:40 PM
yes. I think MM provides different benefits.. dosing missing elements + creating a hospitable environment for fauna + precipitating phosphates + neutralizing nitrates + creating a food supply in the form for fauna plankton.

combining it with a detritus capturing settling tank may be a way to actively feed the machine




Please explain how "magic mud" precipitates phosphates.

To my knowledge, dosing limewater precipitates phosphate in the form of calcium phosphate. This is often why cynobacteria proliferate with no phosphate in the water column.

Subsea
08/30/2016, 02:50 PM
Actively precipitate phosphates to close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas.


What does close the nitrogen cycle to N2 gas mean?

With respect to denitrification, it is faculative bacteria and reduction chemistry that completes the nitrogen cycle to be removed as a free gas. I see no connection to phosphate precipitation.

karimwassef
08/30/2016, 09:42 PM
they're two separate mechanisms. The theory is that the high iron in the MM precipitates phosphate. The depth of the mud allows denitrification in the anaerobic zones.

There's lots of debate around how MM works (or if it does)... I'm just listing the potential mechanisms

dartier
09/01/2016, 05:15 AM
This thread is circling around some topics that are near and dear to me. Not that I use or am thinking of using Miracle Mud (I am not), but in relation to phosphate precipitation.

I am at the beginning of a filtration build styled after the DyMiCo units. For the uninitiated, they are kind of a sand bed meets denitrification meets calcium reactor all in one using a controller. The filter should take care of the nitrate and Alk/Calcium, but I am left to deal with the phosphate using other means.

For this I plan to dose Iron Citrate. GlennF from the DSR technique has been using Iron Citrate to lower phosphate in the form of precipitated Iron Phosphate . Where I am struggling is deciding where to best apply the iron citrate. As I will not have a skimmer since these filters best known for generating water column plankton, exporting the precipitated iron phosphate in skimmate is out. One thing that I was thinking of doing is dosing the iron citrate directly into the anaerobic portion of the filter. The citrate is a carbon source and as I will be dosing carbon to power the denitrification, I should be able to substitute some of the normal carbon with the iron citrate.

This would leave precipitated iron phosphate in the lower portion of the filter, or at least I think it will. Do I ignore it and wait to export it until topping up the coarse media every couple of years that gets dissolved, or do I install a flush system into the bottom of the filter so that accumulated precipitate can be removed without tearing the filter apart? For that matter I am wondering how inert the iron phosphate will be and is there any danger of it getting re-introduced to the water column either through dissolving along with the calcium carbonate media or through bacterial action.

I may just have to take a wait and see attitude.

Dennis