eletrocute a tank to kill a crab?

[salty joe]

A lot of crab restaurants electrocute crabs with regular old 110V. I am considering doing the same to my tank to lose a pest crab that will not enter any trap. I've only seen it twice. It looks like the shell is about 1 1/2 inches. I thought I could starve it out, I think it's still there. It's preventing me from stocking the tank.

Removing the rock is not a good option.

I acclimated a black molly to see if gets eaten, but the molly stays up by the overflow and keeps going over the overflow. I was hoping it would sleep in the rock...

It looks like I'm down to removing a couple pieces of rock and poisoning the tank or maybe try electrocution. I'm leaning towards electrocution so I don't have to deal with toxins possibly soaking into rock and sand.

I don't have coral or fish, just quite a variety of bugs and worms etc.

In terms of safety, I can do this without being dangerous using a momentary switch located away from the tank. I'd also use steel leads to keep copper out of the water.

One thing I'm not sure about is if the 15A breaker will trip right away with wires placed 5 or 6 feet apart in salt water. I could easily plug into a 20A circuit.

I'm not joking here, but there must be some good jokes here-I'm hoping for some good laughs and some serious input.

[reef thief]

Smoke it

[Joe0813]

I need to follow this one

[OrQidz]

Be safe, it sounds scary. I don't have any experience with purposely adding electricity to tanks, but just to throw this out there: Are you sure this crab will eat fish and be a problem? You said you have no coral or fish, I'm not sure if that's because the crab ate everything in the tank already. Crabs aren't great hitch hikers and are concerning for sure, but I'm not sure I'd mess with electrocuting a tank without being sure. Have you tried a small frag to see if it gets eaten?

[mattgumaer]

If you don't have anything in the tank yet, why not remove the rock? If you can put it in buckets with a little water in the bottom, chances are the crab will exit the rock for the water reasonably quickly. Seems much, much safer.

Matt

[salty joe]

Smoke it
Like, put it in a pipe and smoke it? Sounds like a mean way to euthanize a crab. But first I’d have to catch the dam thing.
I need to follow this one
Glad you are here!
Be safe, it sounds scary. I don't have any experience with purposely adding electricity to tanks, but just to throw this out there: Are you sure this crab will eat fish and be a problem? You said you have no coral or fish, I'm not sure if that's because the crab ate everything in the tank already. Crabs aren't great hitch hikers and are concerning for sure, but I'm not sure I'd mess with electrocuting a tank without being sure. Have you tried a small frag to see if it gets eaten?
I have not added coral or fish. One of the times I saw the crab; it was working on a snail. Cerith and other good snails are all gone except for little Collonista snails. I don’t want to add coral, wait out ich, only have that crab start picking off carefully QTd fish.

If you don't have anything in the tank yet, why not remove the rock? If you can put it in buckets with a little water in the bottom, chances are the crab will exit the rock for the water reasonably quickly. Seems much, much safer.

Matt
If only I could…It’s a big tank and before it had water in it, I built a fake boulder with dry rock and 3”, 2”, and 1” PVC bolt holes. There is no way that fake boulder is coming out in one piece. Plus, I secured my centerpiece old coral head to a sheet of PVC and siliconed it to the bottom. I wish I could take the rock out, but it’s just not a good option.
As far as safety, I‘d have a heavy duty momentary switch located away from the tank and I’d use heavy wire so the breaker would go way before the wire heated up to the point of failure. So no more chance of injury than turning on a light. I imagine it’d be a good idea to remove power heads and pH probe too.

Here's a pic of the kind of crab I have. This one is smaller than a dime, I found it on the underside of my algae filter a few months ago. I'm thinking he was running for his life.

[Apotack]

I would think you could find a simpler and safer way to remove the crab. If not please video and leave instructions for posting it here in your will.

[psidriven]

That actually looks like a porcelain crab, which is a filter feeder and pretty reef safe. Gorilla crabs and big sally light foots are the ones you need to watch out for.

[mgreenough]

I would drain the water from the tank and see if it comes out the rock looking for water. Safer than trying to electricute the tank.

[1jwampler]

How about buying a queen trigger from your LFS and sell it after it eats the crab?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TheFishGuy31]

Aside from leaving scorch marks on the glass of your aquarium (assuming the glass doesn't blow out) you'll be creating a dead short.

I'd recommend wearing sunglasses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mgreenough]

How about something like this ;-)

https://youtu.be/wYZJEUXuEss

[Fiver]

That actually looks like a porcelain crab, which is a filter feeder and pretty reef safe. Gorilla crabs and big sally light foots are the ones you need to watch out for.

That does look like a porcelain crab. They have six legs in addition to their claws. The undesirable crabs have eight legs in addition to their claws.

I have a few dozen porcelain crabs, and they are completely harmless. I love mine.

[johnike]

I need to follow this one

Hiya stranger!
:wavehand:

[Silly clownfish]

What about putting in every heater you can get your hands on and crank the tempurature up to something ridiculous for about a week? I like the draining the tank idea too, probably better.

With any method, how will you be able to verify it is dead? If you electrocute it, it could just stay dead in the rock. You won't know that it is actually dead. That's what I like about the draining the tank idea, you have the best chance of seeing it.

[Mrs. Music]

Draining the tank and flush a peroxide wash over the rocks you think he is in with a turkey baster would work well.

[salty joe]

Thanks for pointing out it looks like a porcelain crab. I mistakenly thought porcelain crabs had sieves instead of claws, not as well as claws...I can't be sure if the one I'm after is a porcelain too. Would a porcelain crab eat a snail? Are they nocturnal?

With any method, how will you be able to verify it is dead? .

Yeah, that's a problem. Even if I drained the tank, I think the crab would stay in the fake boulder even with peroxide. There are just soo many nooks and crannies-it's good sized.

I did consider an undulated trigger, but the crab stays tucked in the rock. I also thought maybe an octopus. I've never seen one in a store though.

Or maybe toss an M80 in and hope it goes viral on youtube. Ha, that was a good one!

Raising the temp is a good idea, thanks. Just shutting down the cooling system would do it. Much better than electrocution. Knowing the crab I'm after might also be a porcelain crab, makes me cool my jets a little.

Thanks for the good ideas and input.

If I could get a do over, I'd put the live rock in its own tank for a couple months to see what's on it.

[Fiver]

Thanks for pointing out it looks like a porcelain crab. I mistakenly thought porcelain crabs had sieves instead of claws, not as well as claws...I can't be sure if the one I'm after is a porcelain too. Would a porcelain crab eat a snail? Are they nocturnal?



Yeah, that's a problem. Even if I drained the tank, I think the crab would stay in the fake boulder even with peroxide. There are just soo many nooks and crannies-it's good sized.

I did consider an undulated trigger, but the crab stays tucked in the rock. I also thought maybe an octopus. I've never seen one in a store though.

Or maybe toss an M80 in and hope it goes viral on youtube. Ha, that was a good one!

Raising the temp is a good idea, thanks. Just shutting down the cooling system would do it. Much better than electrocution. Knowing the crab I'm after might also be a porcelain crab, makes me cool my jets a little.

Thanks for the good ideas and input.

If I could get a do over, I'd put the live rock in its own tank for a couple months to see what's on it.

Porcelain crabs have regular crab claws, but then they have two small arms/appendages near the mouth/in between the claws that have large fans on either end. They use these arm fans to reach out and grab/filter food from the water column. Mine also pick at the gravel. They won't go after snails, shrimp, corals, fish, etc.

They are most active at night, but mine come out at all hours.

Here's one of mine:

[mgreenough]

Best method then to live catch is the baited jam jar. Place a tall jar next to the rock where the crab is at an angle and place food inside. The crab should get stuck in the jar if it gets inside. I could not do that in my tank as the shrimp/nass snails used to pinch the food before any crab could get a look in. Since your tank is empty it may work.

[salty joe]

I tried the tall jar against the rock, the trap with little acrylic fingers that make a one way trap door, guillotine trap door and inverted funnel, all for at least a week at a time. The only time I got even close was the guillotine trap door had the bait taken after thee or four nights. I put a red light over the tank to see the guillotine trap and the crab would not take the bait. The night I turned the light off, the bait was taken sometime between 3 and 6 AM.

[saf1]

Electricity seems a bit overkill. I would continue to try the traps and use a piece of shrimp or prawn. Also mash up a bit of the food to get the smell going.

Honestly, and not to make light of it, just make a game out of it. Use a Tupperware container, slot the top, toss in the shrimp and mush, put some sand / substrate over the top, see what happens. I had to catch a Gorilla crab once and this is what I ended up doing although I actually put a fishing swivel through the lid and base, some line, and added a rock inside to weigh it down. Then I picked a weekend, loaded it up, and waited for it to get there and snack. Then pulled it. It couldn't get out :)

Anyway - bummer for you and sorry to hear about the frustration. Hang in there. You will win in the end.

[Joe0813]

Hiya stranger!
:wavehand:

Hey John how are you ?

[Joe0813]

If you do go the electric chair method please video it... I want to see how it goes

[ReefCowboy]

This is funny...made me laugh when i read it :)

[Darryl Hey]

yeah video this insanity
I could use a good laugh

[Dave0331]

Aside from leaving scorch marks on the glass of your aquarium (assuming the glass doesn't blow out) you'll be creating a dead short.

I'd recommend wearing sunglasses.

If he only puts the hot wire in it won't blow up since water is conductive. Just don't put the neutral in other you will bow up pretty good


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dave0331]

Only put black wire in water put don't ground or neutral in. Or you'll blow up pretty good

[Potatohead]

https://youtu.be/Xc7S0y5Xyt8

[salty joe]

No better way to start the day than a little head banging!

As far as blowing things up, if there was too little resistance, the 15A breaker would go. Years and years ago, I put the hot and neutral 110V wire into freshwater and it didn't throw the breaker or cause the water to explode or anything like that. I think salt water would throw the breaker, IDK, but I've backed off electrocuting the tank.

[alton]

I used a 1 liter wide mouth water bottle, cut the top off and inverted it, taped it together and added fish food and a mantis crawled right in. I would think it would work for crabs also? Glad you gave up on the shocking idea.

[Sohal Tang Tim]

Reef Theif you kill me with "Smoke It!" hahaohoahoahoah

I think electricity is wrong way to go...just nottttt a good idea...

Keep trying to catch it...you'll catch it and then trade it in at LFS....easy

and humane..>I know its just a crab but.... trade it in! Someone will have

a preditor tank for it....it might be lunch for a moray...you going to deprive

the moray? lolol

[ramasule]

Put 2 110W lightbulbs wired in parelle in series to limit the current.

Black wire ---------[bulb]--------- probe
White wire -------------------------- probe

[Therinx]

Taser? Cattle prod? Scuffle around on the carpet for a few hours and then touch the rock? :p

[g_langley]

I had a Xanthid crab which caused some collateral. I tried the bait method using prawn etc. in a glass tumbler. All I got was everything but the crab.

He lived at the base of a small rock island which would have been a pain to get out as it is zip tied and cemented with all sorts of things in it.

I decided to purchase a powerful air pump and attached both outputs to a single air line.

The end of the airline was placed inside the foot of the island, turned on the pump to low. It gave a rather nice effect!

Within a few minutes the crab came out and was dealt with.

[Dmorty217]

Get a trigger or puffer, it will make short work of your little crab. Return the said fish to fish store when it's done with its snack

[Digitalelectric]

That's a porcelain crab that's very common in the waters here in Florida. Where did your rock come from? Those are completely harmless.

[Reefkeepa1]

Even if you did "electrify the tank ", that crab would never know. It wouldnt accomplish anything but you needing to replace the breaker you blow up.

[salty joe]

The rock came from Jakarta, Indonesia and was very fresh.

I thought about adding a trigger, but there are so many hiding spots a fish could never get to.

You can touch the hot and neutral wires and the breaker just trips. So the breaker wouldn't need replaced. I'm not going to try electrocution though.

I've only seen the crab twice and one of the times he was working on a snail, so I'm pretty sure it's not a porcelain like the one I pictured. I've gone months without feeding trying to starve it, I wish there was a way to know if it were dead.

[Willyboz1]

Yea please do a video.

[OrionN]

Electrocute a tank to kill a crab is like nuke a city to get rid of a small time criminal. Think of something else, especially for what seem to be a harmless, and nice porcelain crab. If you get good rock, there will be plenty of hitch hiker. Don't assume that they are guilty unless you have evidence of it, or at least accurately ID it.

[Mishri]

take everything living you can out of the tank.. and ammonia poison him. 5ppm might do it(6.5ppm killed 100% of mud crabs in a study, within 24 hours. 4ppm was toxic). it should kill everything in the tank. alternative, feed him, maybe tie a string on a silverside or piece of shrimp.. get him used to eating out in the open.. then spear him or net him.. I think crabs can live a long time without any food. You'll want to do a massive water change as soon as the crab dies if you do the ammonia poisoning.

i'd prefer trying to feed him and get him out in the open rather than poisoning... that's how i got my gorilla crabs.. let them feel nice and secure with months of feedings.. then bam.. out of nowhere, netted. I couldn't get my stone crabs that way though.. they were always diving back into the rocks with any movement, traps didn't work.. had to tear the tank apart.

[heathlindner25]

https://youtu.be/Xc7S0y5Xyt8

Freaking love it!

[salty joe]

Electrocute a tank to kill a crab is like nuke a city to get rid of a small time criminal. Think of something else, especially for what seem to be a harmless, and nice porcelain crab. If you get good rock, there will be plenty of hitch hiker. Don't assume that they are guilty unless you have evidence of it, or at least accurately ID it.

The pic was a porcelain, but I found a couple that were hairy when I added the rock. Sure wish I could have a do over. One of the few times I saw the crab it was eating a snail... Good nuclear bomb analogy.

take everything living you can out of the tank.. and ammonia poison him. 5ppm might do it(6.5ppm killed 100% of mud crabs in a study, within 24 hours. 4ppm was toxic). it should kill everything in the tank. alternative, feed him, maybe tie a string on a silverside or piece of shrimp.. get him used to eating out in the open.. then spear him or net him.. I think crabs can live a long time without any food. You'll want to do a massive water change as soon as the crab dies if you do the ammonia poisoning.

i'd prefer trying to feed him and get him out in the open rather than poisoning... that's how i got my gorilla crabs.. let them feel nice and secure with months of feedings.. then bam.. out of nowhere, netted. I couldn't get my stone crabs that way though.. they were always diving back into the rocks with any movement, traps didn't work.. had to tear the tank apart.

This guy aint coming out in the open. When I had the trip wire trap set up, he would not enter the trap unless the red light was off.

If I used ammonia, couldn't I let bacteria break down the ammonia and then use algae to clean up the mess, rather than a water change?

Freaking love it!

Head banging is good!
You guys are right, electrocuting is not the way to go. I was just bent at the time. I still have been trying starve the crab but collonista snails are reproducing like crazy, I imagine enough to feed a crab.

I can remove a good portion of live rock and my algae filter to save some life. I think my two best options are heat things up or use ammonia.

[reef thief]

You need to go through with frying this thing. Don't let anyone else's ideas stop you from following your dreams.

[salty joe]

:lolspin:

[Mishri]

At those levels (5-6+ppm) bacteria doesn't even form properly.. everything in your tank will die.... you'll need to lower it first... It will slowly lower as bacteria will still form, but it will be inhibited. depends on if you want to wait for a month or 2 for your tank to become stable again or not.

[Mrs. Music]

The pic was a porcelain, but I found a couple that were hairy when I added the rock. Sure wish I could have a do over. One of the few times I saw the crab it was eating a snail... Good nuclear bomb analogy.



This guy aint coming out in the open. When I had the trip wire trap set up, he would not enter the trap unless the red light was off.

If I used ammonia, couldn't I let bacteria break down the ammonia and then use algae to clean up the mess, rather than a water change?



Head banging is good!
You guys are right, electrocuting is not the way to go. I was just bent at the time. I still have been trying starve the crab but collonista snails are reproducing like crazy, I imagine enough to feed a crab.

I can remove a good portion of live rock and my algae filter to save some life. I think my two best options are heat things up or use ammonia.

Seriously, Joe. Draining all the water out of the tank and spraying peroxide over his rock will flush him out.

[salty joe]

Seriously, Joe. Draining all the water out of the tank and spraying peroxide over his rock will flush him out.

That's not an option because the rock structure/fake boulder was built in the tank and is too large to move or spay the underside. Plus a lot of PVC bolt holes are built into the fake boulder. But I will spray the smaller pieces of live rock when I remove them.

I've never sprayed with peroxide, I've heard soda water is also effective at flushing out bad guys. Would using either one likely kill all the good bugs, etc.?

[Mrs. Music]

You do not have to remove the LR. You remove all the water to expose the rocks. Then you pour peroxide over the rock, or squirt it into a hole or at the rock. What ever else is in the rock will be likely injured. Some good fauna will die. But other critters do not usually sleep or hide in a predators hidey hole so with luck a prized specimen is not to going to get hurt or die.

[salty joe]

At those levels (5-6+ppm) bacteria doesn't even form properly.. everything in your tank will die.... you'll need to lower it first... It will slowly lower as bacteria will still form, but it will be inhibited. depends on if you want to wait for a month or 2 for your tank to become stable again or not.

Is regular ammonia from the grocery store OK as long as there are no perfumes, etc.? Would you expect coralline algae and other algae to die?

[OrionN]

Bacterial continue to metabolize ammonia and convert it to nitrates or N2 (under anarerobic condition). Crabs are very hardy. If you get ammonia high enough to kill a crab all your live animals in it will be dead too. These rock will essentially be dead rock.
If you want to do this just take all the rock out of the tank. Soak in fresh water until everything is dead then just recycle. It is a waste of live rock. High quality live rock is of high quality from all the animals in it. That is what give your tank diversity and thus stability.

[OrionN]

Good animals and bad animals are the same. Whatever kill a crab will also kill all the other animals since crabs are one of the most hardy of all the marine animals

[salty joe]

I know Orion, thanks, but there's no way to get the fake boulder out. I built it inside the tank while it was empty. And if I broke it into pieces, there's no way to re-build it without emptying the tank-sand and all- and starting over. Plus, I really like the boulder as is. I doubt I could make it as nice again.

What I can do is remover the 50 lb. of really good live rock that I set on the fake boulder to finish it off and put it in a Brute trashcan with a heater and powerhead until the tank is non toxic. As much as I hate killing so much stuff, it seems like the least bad solution, if I ever want fish-and I do.

And then there's the case of the white worm about the diameter of my little finger. It was hanging out at 'his place' until I shined a flashlight on it. Then it disappeared. I wish I'd fed it and found out what it is instead of spooking it. Good worm, bad worm, IDK but kinda gives me a nudge to nuke the tank. Anyway, I'm thinking ammonia. Is regular old grocery store ammonia OK?

It's taken me so long to do this because I hate doing it. But, I will still have some life from the rock in a trashcan.

[Zatoichi]

OMG this is a wild idea hahaha I have always had good luck getting crabs out of my tank with tall vases and Squid at the bottom to entice them. Pulled a giant gorilla crab out that way it was eating everything :-) never got the 2 foot worm that thing disappeared maybe the crab got him

Sent from my SM-J700T1 using Tapatalk

[OrionN]

Getting crab out of the tank is easy. Not enough information regarding the worm to condemn all living things in the tank to death.
It seem that you are hellbent on nuking the tank. Just do it and get it over with. I get a little irritated reading your posts in this thread and likely will not add anything here again.
They way you are thinking. Why not just start the tank with dead rock and only add whatever life you know 100% safe. Nuke the tank is easy. Just replace the salt water with fresh water for several days. You better do this to all your life rock because there are lots of worms you cannot ID in the rock in the trash can. Most likely it will include the same larger worms in the LR in there too.
Certainly this thread does not belong in the Advanced Topics forum.

[Mrs. Music]

Getting crab out of the tank is easy. Not enough information regarding the worm to condemn all living things in the tank to death.
It seem that you are hellbent on nuking the tank. Just do it and get it over with. I get a little irritated reading your posts in this thread and likely will not add anything here again.
They way you are thinking. Why not just start the tank with dead rock and only add whatever life you know 100% safe. Nuke the tank is easy. Just replace the salt water with fresh water for several days. You better do this to all your life rock because there are lots of worms you cannot ID in the rock in the trash can. Most likely it will include the same larger worms in the LR in there too.
Certainly this thread does not belong in the Advanced Topics forum.

Minh speaks the truth.

[heathlindner25]

Minh speaks the truth.

Yes he does.

[Sk8r]

Another way to go about it that is NOT a nuclear option...
Bait it out. Get a small glass wine carafe (narrow necked) and prop it steeply against rock, bait it with raw shrimp and just leave it: most crabs cannot climb glass. Repeat this until you're sure you have all your problems.

With a 100 gallon heavily rocked mature tank in which a few predatory snails got loose---I just used coral frags as bait, picked them off daily over a couple of weeks, and the problem is solved.

[snorvich]

You need to go through with frying this thing. Don't let anyone else's ideas stop you from following your dreams.

Which is why so many drop out of the hobby.

[johnike]

Which is why so many drop out of the hobby.

Steve, I have a feeling that reef thief was typing with sarcasm font.
:lol:

[snorvich]

Steve, I have a feeling that reef thief was typing with sarcasm font.
:lol:

Hopefully. I need to get more perspicacious glasses

[Zatoichi]

I'm a fan of the fresh water swap idea, drain and refill with fresh and let it sit for a few days, often the living critters will shoot out of the rock and you might not even have to completely fill the tank to find and remove the offending animals.

This will be the least work and unlikely to leave harmful residues although all that death will definitely trigger a cycling event and possibly a spike in other bad byproducts

The worm might be your huckleberry, those things can be quite long and destructive especially if it's that fat but once again we don't know

Sent from my SM-J700T1 using Tapatalk

[ericarenee]

All of these Anti Crab people make me CRY..
BOOHOOOO SAVE THE CRABS .. SAVE THE CRABS..


How about getting a Tall Glass Jar and glue a mirror in the bottom of it.. Of the Night time this Terror Crab will see the other crab (his reflection) Climb in to kill the Intruder and get stuck.... Then send the cute widdle crabbie to me so he can live out the rest of his life in my Refugium......

[mickey204]

I always preferred the stab with a long black screw driver option.

Wife comes downstairs at 3 in the morning on a workday. "What the heck are you doing"

I look at her, blinding her with my headlamp while holding a long black flathead screwdriver.

"I'm hunting crabs, duh."

[fuzzyfred101]

I always preferred the stab with a long black screw driver option.

Wife comes downstairs at 3 in the morning on a workday. "What the heck are you doing"

I look at her, blinding her with my headlamp while holding a long black flathead screwdriver.

"I'm hunting crabs, duh."

Ha "duh" :lolspin:

[sheorchid]

I had a terrible time with an emerald crab. I put a smelly piece of shrimp in
a 4 inch tall jelly jar and placed in leaning near the live rock so it would climb in to eat the shrimp but couldn't climb out of the jar. When the lights went out, the
crab was caught within 30 minutes. I removed it and took it to my LFS store.
Try that!

[salty joe]

A few weeks ago, I set a glass cylinder vase about 3"diameter and 8 or 9 inches tall with a piece of FRP with a 1 1/2" hole drilled in it siliconed to the top. The shrimp I used for bait was eaten on the fourth night. So, I cut a piece of 1/4" Styrofoam about 2" diameter and folded/curved/bent it to get it through the 1 1/2" hole and inside the trap for a one way door.

Since then, I've had no takers. I burned a few holes in the Styrofoam to let the smell out.

I have reagent grade ammonium chloride but haven't been able to bring myself to nuke the tank.

[rajilnaja]

A few weeks ago, I set a glass cylinder vase about 3"diameter and 8 or 9 inches tall with a piece of FRP with a 1 1/2" hole drilled in it siliconed to the top. The shrimp I used for bait was eaten on the fourth night. So, I cut a piece of 1/4" Styrofoam about 2" diameter and folded/curved/bent it to get it through the 1 1/2" hole and inside the trap for a one way door.

Since then, I've had no takers. I burned a few holes in the Styrofoam to let the smell out.

I have reagent grade ammonium chloride but haven't been able to bring myself to nuke the tank.

Wow the struggle is real. Cant belive it is still giving you trouble. Best of luck!

[TokiHacker]

Getting crab out of the tank is easy. Not enough information regarding the worm to condemn all living things in the tank to death.
It seem that you are hellbent on nuking the tank. Just do it and get it over with. I get a little irritated reading your posts in this thread and likely will not add anything here again.
They way you are thinking. Why not just start the tank with dead rock and only add whatever life you know 100% safe. Nuke the tank is easy. Just replace the salt water with fresh water for several days. You better do this to all your life rock because there are lots of worms you cannot ID in the rock in the trash can. Most likely it will include the same larger worms in the LR in there too.
Certainly this thread does not belong in the Advanced Topics forum.

100% truth...